Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey

NovaCapsFans.com

Another GA source question; this has come up in a couple of reviews. NovaCapsFans is used in Martin Fehérváry multiple times. The nominator, HickoryOughtShirt?4, found this as an example of a reliable source citing them, and points out that the Capitals have credentialled them. That page also says "NoVa Caps is “by the people, for the people”, meaning we want your input. If you have any tips, news, photos, or insights, we’d love to hear from you", which is concerning, and I can't see evidence that they exert editorial control over the submitted material. Is there other evidence that could establish this as a reliable source? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

HickoryOughtShirt?4 found this NBC report which cites NovaCaps. I'm going to treat it as reliable for GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:28, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Lower casing of First team & Second team All stars.

Whoah, when did the NHL start lower casing to "NHL first team all star" & "NHL second team all star"? Noting, the vast changes across several NHL bios. Also related changes made to several NHL teams. GoodDay (talk) 02:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

By the way, I don't think anyone changed "All-Star" to "all star" or anything like that. No such vast changes, just downcasing some "team", "first", etc. where not part of a proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 22:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank goodness. GoodDay (talk) 17:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

When they told off some ignorant intern to do NHL.com writeups, I expect. When the NHL changes the usage in their official press releases ... well, we'd still be bound by COMMONNAME. Ravenswing 07:22, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It also looks like someone who has an interest in reducing capital letters for a variety of topics, though I don't know if they understand the context here. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah. I just dropped a note on Dicklyon's talk page. I'm going to give him until Monday before doing some mass reverts. And nope, when GoodDay first posted, I thought NHL.com was changing their own nomenclature to lower case. This is not the case; they still use "First Team" and "Second Team." Ravenswing 04:54, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Welcome to lowercase. Tennis articles lost this same battle a little while ago and it's moving from sport to sport to sport. Baseball was able to fend it off because of a very active WikiProject. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Your fight to cap "Men's Doubles" and such is a pretty good analogy. Not supported by sources, not compatible with WP style, and consensus to fix, so we fixed. Recent discussions re things like "Men's Basketball Tournament" elicited a strong sentiment to not just fix it for basketball, but to do other sports at the same time; so you'll see a lot of recent work on soccer, volleyball, ice hockey, lacrosse, and other where similar patterns were found. In the process, I found lots of other phrases that were over-capitalized (e.g. "First Round", "Regular Season", ...), and haven't stopped to discuss every one. If there's pushback, let's talk, like we're doing here. There were thousands of case corrections in baseball, too, but yes a recent RM discussion did go the wrong way after I forgot to timely list it at WT:MOSCAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 22:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Supported by many tennis sources. The usual four of you of course since tennis project doesn't have that many active participants. But baseball project does and they slammed that door quickly. I assume they will all eventually fall as dominoes. I wasn't bringing you up, simply pointing out to Ravenswing that it will likely be a losing cause. But you seem to be fixated on me in some absurd way that it's kind of creepy. Go badger some more editors as is your usual style now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You followed me here, not vice versa. You lost that argument about sources; even tennis sources don't usually cap such things in sentences, as you were shown. Dicklyon (talk) 18:05, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually it got listed so I simply checked it out. But as usual you decide to hound and make personal as is your usual pattern of attack and abuse. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

GoodDay, when you complain about my edits, you should notify me. The relevant guidance here is in MOS:CAPS, as usual. We don't necessarily follow NHL style. If you look in books, these things are nowhere close to consistently capitalized (I showed Ravenswings some search links at the discussion he started on my talk page). Dicklyon (talk) 16:45, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Hurricane Fiona, got in the way. GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

If you look at actual relevant sources (a few of which I just dropped on your talk page), instead of casual glances at the first page of Google searches, you will see that "First/Second Team All-Star" is the NHL's official title for such awards, in the same fashion as "Stanley Cup" or "Hart Memorial Trophy" is the official and correct usage for those awards. It is arrogant as all hell to decide that your private, uninformed interpretation of MOS:CAPS overrides sports leagues' official constructions, and you can either set your misguided edits right, or we can take this to ANI. Ravenswing 18:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Capitalization of "Stanley Cup" and "Hart Memorial Trophy" are strongly supported by consistent capitalization in independent reliable sources. That's not what you find for phrases like "All-Star team", "first-team All-Star", "first team All-Stars", "All-Star first team", etc. Let's look at what's there instead of trying to compare to something very different. Dicklyon (talk) 22:32, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

As for ANI, I'm pretty sure that admins prefer we discuss here first. There's no ongoing incident that needs admin intervention. If you have arguments on capitalization that you can make, relative to policies and guidelines, please do make them. Invoking the official style of an organization that's not Wikipedia is not something that guidelines favor; quite the contrary, per WP:OFFICIAL (though that's more about article titles than capitalization/style). Dicklyon (talk) 23:46, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

• When I was growing up in the dark ages, I was taught that all words in titles and headlines were capitalised except for prepositions and articles (unless, obviously it's the 1st word). When I first started editting wikipedia many moons ago, it was a mix and at some point it was decided to do away with capitals. I still think titles look better capitalised (otherwise they "look" like sentences). If there's a vote on this, I say keep the capitals on these All Star pages. That's just my 2 cents. Masterhatch (talk) 19:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  Wikipedia has used "sentence case" for titles and headings, as opposed to "title case", since its earliest days, for very good reasons related to linking. The thing about capping all words in titles and headlines is still used for work titles, but never has been for article titles. Rather, we cap the first word, and do the rest the same way it would appear in a sentence. When source usage is mixed, we default to lowercase. See MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 22:28, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  Also, note that we're not discussing page titles here, nor "All Star pages", so it's not clear what you think you're voting on. Dicklyon (talk) 23:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

• If I understand correctly, the argument here is to cap these things in the context of the NHL, but not for other hockey leagues or other sports. Is that correct? Dicklyon (talk) 23:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  @GoodDay and Ravenswing: – Am I interpreting you correctly? Dicklyon (talk) 02:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  You are interpreting me correctly. The NHL uses such constructions in their official nomenclature for First and Second Team All-Stars, and I'm being exact in that usage -- the confusion some editors here who appear less knowledgeable about hockey have may stem from that there is an annual All-Star game, and players are selected to play for All-Star teams, a much less important honor and where the NHL explicitly does not capitalize "teams." But as far as other leagues or other sports, no, I'm not going to assert usages where I'm not certain. The minor league American Hockey League also uses "First and Second Team All-Stars," but that also affects far fewer articles. Ravenswing 07:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  I don't know how the other hockey leagues do it. But, I'm sure that the NHL capitalises. GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• WP usually downcases unless the overwhelming majority of outside instances are capped. I don't care what boosterism the NHL engages in, downcasing would be an improvement and make WP more internally consistent. Tony (talk) 23:44, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
• This is a discussion about style and particularly capitalisation. WP has a house style and there is a social contract in editing WP to follow the WP house style (and WP:P&G generally) rather than some other style such as that used by the NHL. Per MOS:CAPS, we would only capitalise that which is capitalised consistently in independent sources. Obviously, the NHL is not independent of itself. This thread also refers to a discussion at DL's TP. Evidence provided there does not support such terms being consistently capitalised in independent sources. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:56, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  This is not a "style." This is the official title of the award. No one would make this absurd argument about the "Stanley cup," however much I'm sure I can dredge up some sources that misspell it. Ravenswing 07:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

  Which is the offical title of the award and where can we find a source that says so, in case someone think following NHL official style is important? Dicklyon (talk) 17:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• If it's not near-uniformly capitalized in reliable sources independent of the subject, then don't capitalize it on WP. Doesn't matter what the subject is (sports, science, F&SF fandom topics, etc., etc.). We have MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS for a reason.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

To no one's surprise the same four editors show up and pontificate on adherence to the guideline they wrote with almost no input from outside editors after being canvassed via the obscure guideline talk page which has almost no other contributors and keeps a running tab of discussions in a blatant violation of WP:CANVASS. Shocked. oknazevad (talk) 16:57, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

As Fyunck pointed out above, baseball has a "very active Wikiproject" that prevailed when not balanced by a project-like alert to people who care about style. Similarly, I'm sure the Hockey fans would capitalize everything they care about if there was no input from people who care about style. Among people who care about style, GoodDay is one, and he's on your side; it's not alway one sided. And the mechanism is no more obscure than wikiproject article alerts. And the guidelines you refer to evolved with strong community support over many years. We avoid unnecessary capitalization because most editors want it that way; it makes capitalization mean something. Dicklyon (talk) 17:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: you're like a train picking up speed. Mass page moves will always catch someones attention & there's always the chance of resistance. GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I certainly hope that others will see and review any moves I make. But that's not what this section is about. Let me know if you see any moves that don't look right. Dicklyon (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Months ago (or maybe years ago) I advised that there should be limits placed on lower-casing across Wikipedia. Regrettably, my advise wasn't taken. GoodDay (talk) 17:24, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

But there are limits placed on lowercasing. As noted above, Stanley Cup and Hart Memorial Trophy are good examples of such limits. I've also refrained from lowercasing "All-Star" and "All-Star Game" in the NHL context, because those are pretty consistently capped in sources, unlike the various team permutations (there are also generic versions of them, of course, per all-star game). Dicklyon (talk) 17:29, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• NHL usage at this page announcing 2022 All-Star teams does not include the phrases "First Team All-Star" or "Second Team All-Star", capped or otherwise, as awards; it only talks about players being selected for the team. With "players voted to the 2021-22 NHL First All-Star Team", "on the First Team front line", "his first berth on the First Team, following his debut on the Second Team", "making their postseason All-Star Team debut", "Voting for the All-Star Team", "list of NHL First and Second All-Star Team rosters", "voted to the First and Second Teams by position", it's pretty clear that their style is to cap all these things. But there's no indication of an official award name, and no indication that these act as proper names. Dicklyon (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Ya have to be careful, not to get First All-Star Team & Second All-Star Team, mixed up with the NHL All-Star Game. -- GoodDay (talk) 18:45, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

NHL All-Star Team RM?

Dicklyon, on May 5, 2020 you moved NHL All-Star Team to NHL All-Star team, but I can't find the preceding RM? GoodDay (talk) 18:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Rhys Thomson or Thompson

The article at Rhys Thompson (ice hockey) might have an incorrect spelling of a name as its title. Both statistics databases in the article [1][2] spell the name as "Thomson" with no letter "P". Courtesy pings to @Patken4, Tassedethe, and Kaiser matias:. Currently there is a redirect from Rhys Thomson which prevents a page move. Does anyone find a source with a spelling with a letter "P", or have an objection to a page move? Flibirigit (talk) 19:33, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

No objection from me. Incoming links mostly use Thomson as well. Tassedethe (talk) 19:34, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I just checked Total Hockey and it has him as "Thomson", which seems to be the consensus here. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:41, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I think this move requires admin help because of the redirect at Rhys Thomson. Flibirigit (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Made the move to Rhys Thomson and removed the dab page (that I created earlier). Tassedethe (talk)

Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 23:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Taffy Abel

Some material was added to Taffy Abel sourced to Smithsonian and NPR regarding his Ojibwe heritage. This information was propagated to History of the National Hockey League, which I reverted given that there is no source that he broke the colour barrier. Can one truly break a colour barrier if it only becomes truly known a century later? I'm curious for options on how handle this issue in general, not only at that one article, but across anything related to it (e.g. Race and ethnicity in the NHL, Larry Kwong, and I'm sure many others). Maxim_(talk) 00:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Mm. My vote is to mention his background in his own article, and not elsewhere. As you say, he can't be said to have "broken" any barrier when his Ojibwe descent was a closely held secret, nor could it be credibly added to the race&ethnicity article, where any mention would have to include speculation and/or original research. (Never mind the high probability that there were other contemporaries of Abel who likewise concealed his ethnicity, and for similar reasons.) Ravenswing 10:35, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd agree. Worth noting in his own article, with mention that it wasn't known at the time, but it's not really relevant in articles with a larger scope as it simply wasn't known at the time. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:39, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

NHL standings templates nominated for deletion

Just want to inform everyone that some editor nominated NHL standings templates of 2021–22 and 2022–23 seasons for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 October 7#NHL standings templates. – Sabbatino 12:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

USA Hockey

This edit was recently made to USA Hockey. I feel that while it is verifiable, it is not relevant unless something bigger happens. The quote from the politician seems trivial. Any thoughts? Flibirigit (talk) 16:36, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Improvement ideas for an article?

I've written most of this article. I know that there are some holes in the history section but can anyone spot any other mistakes or something to improve? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 19:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Adding teams abbreviations to articles

I proposed adding the NHL team abbreviations to their infoboxes (or at least the articles bodies) here. Please state your opinion. Thanks. --Angus (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2022 (UTC)