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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 50.111.216.187 (talk) at 22:57, 25 November 2022 (→‎The mass killings: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Former good articleIranian Revolution was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 29, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
April 3, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
January 11, 2006Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lotusi95. Peer reviewers: Wafflesandpancakes.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Iranian Revolution "supported by the United States"

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Involved snow close. Changes implemented. Thank you everyone for your input. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 05:08, 5 March 2020 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]


The lead sentence currently reads:

The Iranian Revolution ... also known as the Islamic Revolution or the 1979 Revolution, was a series of events that culminated in the overthrow of the last monarch of Iran, Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, and the replacement of his government with an Islamic republic under the Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who was supported by the United States[1][2][3] and was a leader of one of the factions in the revolt.

References

  1. ^ Bell, Larry (2018-02-05). "Thank Jimmy Carter for Current Iran Mess". Newsmax. Retrieved 2019-12-31.
  2. ^ Washington, Saeed Kamali Dehghan David Smith in (2016-06-10). "US had extensive contact with Ayatollah Khomeini before Iran revolution". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2019-12-31.
  3. ^ Fattahi, Kambiz (3 June 2016). "America's secret engagement with Khomeini". BBC News. Retrieved 31 December 2019.

RfC questions:

  1. In the lead sentence, should who was supported by the United States be removed?
  2. In the infobox, should "United States" be removed from the list of the Revolution Council/Interim Government's supporters?

RFC posted: 03:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

  • Support removing both as proposer, because they fail verification and do not summarize the body.
    1. Newsmax says the US "supported" Khomeini, but Newsmax is listed on WP:RSP as "marginally reliable" (WP:MREL), with the notation, Newsmax has been cited in discussions of other sources as a low benchmark for a partisan outlet with regard to US politics, and for a propensity for comparatively fringe viewpoints.
    2. The Guardian and BBC say that Carter had "extensive contacts" and "engagement" with Khomeini, but not that the US "supported" Khomeini or the Council of the Islamic Revolution
    3. Our article Iranian Revolution itself doesn't say in the body that the US "supported" Khomeini or the Council. At Iranian Revolution#American and internal negotiations with the opposition, the text of the body tracks the sources, saying the US had discussions with Khomeini, but not that the US "supported" Khomeini, or "assisted" or "aided" or "approved" or anything like that. The closest our article comes is that it says According to historian Abbas Milani, this resulted in the United States effectively helping to facilitate Khomeini's rise to power. The attributed opinion of one historian shouldn't be said in wikivoice in the lead, and saying the US effectively helped facilitate Khomeini's rise to power is different than saying Khomeini was supported by the United States
    4. We have a WP:SPINOFF article about this at Jimmy Carter's engagement with Ruhollah Khomeini, and that article (based on the same sources) also doesn't say the US "supported" Khomeini
    5. In the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, the US supported the Shah, and the lead of that article says that, and the US is listed on the Shah's side in the infobox. The lead is consistent with the body and the sources. However, in the 1979 Iranian Revolution, to suggest in the lead and infobox that the US "supported" Khomeini against the Shah is not, well, supported, by the body or the sources For these reasons, we shouldn't say "supported" in the lead or the infobox. – Levivich 03:32, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove but add as a supporter of the Shah. As far as I know, the US supported the Shah not Khomeini. Even if they had contact with Khomeini it was probably because they were trying to save the Shah.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 03:42, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both.
  1. You need to read the BBC article. It says Persuaded by Carter, Iran's autocratic ruler, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, known as the Shah, had finally departed on a "vacation" abroad and also says two days after the Shah departed Tehran, the US told a Khomeini envoy that they were - in principle - open to the idea of changing the Iranian constitution, effectively abolishing the monarchy. and also Washington had already tacitly agreed to a key part of Khomeini's requests by telling the military leaders to stay put. Do you think this is not "supporting Khomeini"? This source[1] disagrees with you.
  2. I also want to remind you that another source is also used in the article and you didn't mention it. This one says: " In the book Jimmy Carter: The Liberal Left and World Chaos (2009), Dr Mike Evans explained how the US government decided to end Shah's regime in Iran and promote Khomeini's Islamic regime after a meeting with the UK and German officials in Guatemala. US government transferred 150 million dollars to Khomeini's bank account in France to support him. Here[2] we have another article, written by same author. This one says: Khomeini could never have succeeded with the Islamic revolution without the assistance – unwitting or otherwise – and support of Jimmy Carter.
  3. Also, Newsmax article is written by Larry Bell. I don't know him but he is a professor and probably a reliable source.
  4. Here is another source. The West's Role in the Shah's Overthrow, written by two reliable authors, says: there are still many unknowns concerning the role of the West, especially the United States, in the Islamic Revolution. Why, for example, did the West seek inroads to the Islamists instead of supporting the legal alternative to the shah and For his part, President d'Estaing recalled that it was Carter who argued that the shah could no longer be in power and must leave the country.
  5. More sources are also available and i can provide more if you want but i think mentioned sources are enough for now. This is not a new story and Carter's support for Khomeini was known since the very first days of the revolution. Even the Shah himself knew this.
  6. "As far as I know" is not a good reason for erasing important information like these. If this is not supported by the body of the article, so the body should be edited, not infobox.Mountain That Rides (talk) 13:46, 14 February 2020 (UTC)— Mountain That Rides (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
    • About the above sources from Mountain That Rides: Mike Evans (author) is a pundit not a scholar or historian. His books are self-published. The publisher is called "Time Worthy Books". Here's their website: [3] – the front page is all about Mike Evans. The only author they have is Mike Evans [4]. All the books they've published are written by Mike Evans [5]. Jimmy Carter famously threatened to sue Mike Evans over what he wrote. Even if Evans is an RS (he's not), Evans argues that Carter unwittingly aided Khomeini. This is the same argument made in the IsraelNationalNews and Middle East Quarterly articles you linked to. Arguing that Carter made mistakes that helped Khomeini is not the same thing as arguing that the US "supported" Khomeini, in wikivoice, in the lead and infobox. Larry Bell (architect) is an architect and a climate change denier who has a blog at Newsmax.com (which, again, is yellow at RSP). Not even close to an RS. Finally, the SPA tag made me look at Mountain That Rides's contribs and I noticed that before this editor edited this article, this article used to say that the the US backed the shah. See Dec 18 version. Each one of Mountain That Rides's 9 edits so far (contribs) have been about changing the article from US-supporting-the-shah to US-supporting-Khomeini. – Levivich 00:26, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Levivich, You must read the full text, not just the headlines. Especially "The West and the Islamic Revolution" section of the Middle East Quarterly article. Which is not about Carter's mistake, but about his support for Khomeini. The same article says "Either way, the abandonment of the shah backfired in grand style." I don't think you can deny this fact that the Shah was abandoned by the US. Also, here is another source which says[6] "American policy towards Iran has been a blunder from the times of the Shahs onwards, beginning with disastrous American support for the Shah’s reign of terror and his White Revolution and continuing with secret support for Khomeini only recently declassified." I think you need to explain why you think BBC's article is not about the US support for Khomeini.Mountain That Rides (talk) 14:22, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      Abandoning the shah is not the same thing as supporting Khomeini. The source you link to [7] is (apparently) an unpublished paper written by a student. Not an RS. The BBC article is not about the US support for Khomeini because the article doesn't use the word "support" or anything like it to describe US relationships with Khomeini. We have no RS support for saying this in wikivoice–it's an argument some scholars have made to varying degrees, and this is reflected in the body of the article. Levivich 21:37, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The mass killings

Hi. I'm looking for info about the mass killings. In particular the mass killings initiated after the revolutionary take over. Both the sporadic killings and the mass executions of political opponents. I couldn't find anything on this page. Maybe there are other pages specifically dedicated to this issue? Where are the Wiki-pages about all these killings? I can't find them. Thank you. RhinoMind (talk) 03:08, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

this is not the place - try the Wiki Desk 50.111.216.187 (talk) 22:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Addition edits

User:HistoryofIran has edits reverted as shown below:

Current edit Previous edit
The revolution was unusual for the surprise it created throughout the world.[1] It lacked many of the customary causes of revolution (defeat in war, a financial crisis, peasant rebellion, or disgruntled military);[2] occurred in a nation that was experiencing relative prosperity;[3][4] produced profound change at great speed;[5] was massively popular; resulted in the exile of many Iranians;[6] and replaced a pro-Western authoritarian monarchy[3] with an anti-Western theocracy[3][7][4][8] based on the concept of velayat-e faqih (or Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists). In addition to these, the revolution sought a global Shia revival and uprootal of Sunni hegemony.[9] It was a relatively nonviolent revolution, and it helped to redefine the meaning and practice of modern revolutions (although there was violence in its aftermath).[10] The revolution was unusual for the surprise it created throughout the world.[11] It lacked many of the customary causes of revolution (defeat in war, a financial crisis, peasant rebellion, or disgruntled military);[12] occurred in a nation that was experiencing relative prosperity;[3][4] produced profound change at great speed;[13] was massively popular; resulted in the exile of many Iranians;[6] and replaced a pro-Western authoritarian monarchy[3] with an anti-Western theocracy[3][7][4][8] based on the concept of velayat-e faqih (or Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists). In addition to these, the revolution had powerful domestic and international repercussions which sought a global Shia revival and uprootal of Sunni hegemony.[14] The events had transformed Iran–United States relations and attempts at improving diplomatic relations occurred in recent years. It was a relatively nonviolent revolution, and it helped to redefine the meaning and practice of modern revolutions (although there was violence in its aftermath).[10]

Do you "Support" the edit should be readded or "Oppose" the edit that should be kept.?

—76.71.120.76 (talk) 03:41, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is an invalid RfC. First, the statement is not brief, contrary to WP:RFCBRIEF; second, the statement includes a table contrary to the same guideline; third, I can find no evidence that WP:RFCBEFORE has been observed. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:22, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Amuzegar, The Dynamics of the Iranian Revolution, (1991), pp. 4, 9–12
  2. ^ Arjomand, p. 191.
  3. ^ a b c d e f Cite error: The named reference Milani Shah was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. ^ a b c d Cite error: The named reference Amuzegar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Amuzegar, Jahangir, The Dynamics of the Iranian Revolution, SUNY Press, p. 10
  6. ^ a b Kurzman, p. 121
  7. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Kurzman was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  8. ^ a b International Journal of Middle East Studies 19, 1987, p. 261
  9. ^ Nasr, Vali (2006). "The Battle for the Middle East". THE SHIA REVIVAL:How Conflicts within Islam Will Shape the Future. 500 Fifth Avenue, New York,NY 10110: W. W. Norton & Company. ISBN 978-0-393-32968-1. What Iran's revolution had failed to do, the Shia revival in post-Saddam Iraq was set to achieve. The challenge that the Shia revival poses to the Sunni Arab domination of the Middle East and to the Sunni conception of political identity and authority is not substantially different from the threat that Khomeini posed. Iran's revolution also sought to break the hegemonic control of the Sunni Arab establishment.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)
  10. ^ a b Ritter, Daniel (May 2010). "Why the Iranian Revolution Was Non-Violent". Archived from the original on 12 October 2013. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  11. ^ Amuzegar, The Dynamics of the Iranian Revolution, (1991), pp. 4, 9–12
  12. ^ Arjomand, p. 191.
  13. ^ Amuzegar, Jahangir, The Dynamics of the Iranian Revolution, SUNY Press, p. 10
  14. ^ Nasr, Vali (2006). "The Battle for the Middle East". THE SHIA REVIVAL:How Conflicts within Islam Will Shape the Future. 500 Fifth Avenue, New York,NY 10110: W. W. Norton & Company. ISBN 978-0-393-32968-1. What Iran's revolution had failed to do, the Shia revival in post-Saddam Iraq was set to achieve. The challenge that the Shia revival poses to the Sunni Arab domination of the Middle East and to the Sunni conception of political identity and authority is not substantially different from the threat that Khomeini posed. Iran's revolution also sought to break the hegemonic control of the Sunni Arab establishment.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)
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