Talk:Derinkuyu underground city

Number of floors

The number of floors in the complex is mentioned at one place as being 13, and at another as being 5. What is the actual number of floors, or is there a more complex explanation? Edit: I emailed the volunteers about this, and they took out both references. Philiparcturus (talk) 00:59, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

What's the actual size of the city?

Article states "2000 sq. ft, total size 7000 sq. ft." That's the size of one to three single-family homes in the US. I find it very difficult to believe that 3,000 to 50,000 people could be housed in such a tiny area! Can someone please find the actual dimensions of the city?

Bigtrick 17:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. 7,000 sq ft divided by the quoted 50,000 people would leave more than one person per sq. ft and I really don't think that is possible. If the area is 7,000 sq ft and there are multiple floors ( which there are) that are up to 7,000 sq. ft each this would make sense, but it is phrased "7,000 sq. ft for the TOTAL size. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.137.8 (talk) 02:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have an exact measurement but it isn't large enough for 3,000 let alone 50,000 people. There aren't floors exactly, it is more narrow one person wide tunnels, (intended for defense), that descend into the main living/hiding area for the women and children. It is deep underground, but not spacious. I don't think anyone knows for sure how many people were hiding there? Seraphimsystem (talk) 05:15, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Not a Lot of Facts

"...the raiders, aware of the dangers awaiting them inside, tried to make the local people leave their shelters by poisoning their wells." Really? Can we have a source for this? It's probably true, but lets have some research! Also, it is a fact that we don't really know WHO built this or really how old it is. There are theories here and there and some are reasonable but it is a mystery. Let's have the article reflect that. And lets have some real research. This is a terrible article! Gingermint (talk) 07:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

In the section "Underground Cites" I removed the uncited statement about it being used by "Christians to avoid persecution and raids" and rewrote it to suggest that it 'may' have been used to "avoid raids" Since there wasn't any evidence or citation this wording seems to convey a more truthful tone 24 February 2012

I am very confused why it is being disputed that Christians used these underground cities to avoid persecution. This entire region is full of Early Churches so we know Christians lived in this region when they were being persecuted. National Geographic and archeological sources accept the explanation that the local population of Cappadocia (Christian) used these narrow tunnels as defensive locations when they were under attack. I'm very surprised to hear this being disputed, as it is generally regarded as non-controversial. Seraphimsystem (talk) 05:23, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Please distinguish wheat and chaff

This article needs a major overhaul. There is much included not strictly relevant to Derinkuyu (e.g. the section on St. Basil at the end). Much of it seems to have been cobbled together from other articles. Some misinformation from the Turkish Ministry of Culture website has been taken as fact.

I would like to see the evidence for Phrygians digging holes in the ground at remote Derinkuyu. Derinkuyu was not a hiding place for persecuted Christians during the Roman period. These cities may date from the time of Sassanian invasion in the 7th century. Without question their period of greatest utility was at the time of the Arab invasions. There is an ugly 19th century Greek church near the entrance to the underground city.

I have looked from time to time in academic libraries for a book or article about Derinkuyu. To date I have found nothing. Does anyone know if the excavations at Derinkuyu have been published anywhere? Aramgar 16:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I found the following citation which looks like it might be helpful: Martin Urban,"Das Rätsel der unterirdischen Städte Südostanatoliens," Zeitschrift für europäsiche Vorgeschichte Nr. 6-8; Pinneberg, 1973.

Other bibliography on Cappadocia is at [1], though most of it seems to be on the churches with a fair amount of not very useful tourist literature. Aramgar 16:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we are dealing with an issue where there are multiple theories put forth by archaeologists, and since it is an archaeological issue and there is no consensus, the only resolution is to discuss all the major theories that have been set forth. These include debate on who built Derinkuyu:

1. The Hittites
2. The Phrygians

and also, discussing what evidence is available for both Roman persecution and alleged persecution during the Ottoman conquest of Byzantium. Some of our editors seem to be arguing that Christians *in this region* were

1. persecuted by Ottomans
2. persecuted by the Ottomans exclusively, and NOT by the Romans

While there is consensus on the persecution by the Romans of the early Church during the time of St. Paul (including in the letters of St. Paul and other biblical literature), the theory I see being developed in this article shows clear bias to press an argument for Islamic persecution of Christians. Evidence for this needs to be cited with verifiable sources, proceeding with the understanding that this issue is controversial, that the Ottoman Empire spanned a period of about 500 years and that there is NO scholarly consensus supporting the theory currently being presented in this article.

The sources currently cited do not reflect the content of the article. For example, the quote "Its inhabitants were Cappadocian Greeks, who may have found a refuge here, perhaps from Roman, from Iconoclast, or later from Turkish and Mongol threats" is cited as a source for the claim that "These cities continued to be used by the Christian natives as protection from the Mongolian incursions of Timur in the 14th century."

Turning this into an article about Greek/Turkish politics is not helpful, or in keeping with the spirit of the endeavor, thank you. Seraphimsystem (talk) 06:00, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

OK Heres alittle google for you

Cappadocia is where East meets West, setting the stage for bloody battles and ruthless land wars. This landscape in modern day Turkey is unlike any other in the world--with an underground to match. 4000 years ago, a mysterious pagan society called the Hittites dug deep into the soft volcanic rock to carve out an intricate underworld. But after almost 800 years of rule, the Hittite Empire vanished without a trace. Where did their people go and what clues have they left behind in their complex subterranean world? Once the Hittites disappeared, everyone from the Romans to the Persians and the Byzantines to the Ottomans fought to control this land, contributing their own subterranean structures to the layers of fortified castles, sacred sanctuaries, and dungeons hidden beneath the sandy lunar landscape. It was a bloody battlefield, and host Don Wildman explores the subterranean world of defense where entire civilizations hid for thousands of years.

Rating: TVPG

Running Time: 60 minutes

Genre:Mysteries of History http://www.history.com/shows.do?episodeId=228773&action=detail

-Please note the name Phrygians and it's connection Hittites. Everything in this article can be confirmed by watching the History Channel special. If you have not seen it then you can refer to it's content off of the history channels website. Thanks for looking and researching before making uninformed demands and statements. Since your from Turkey you should very well be intune with the common marketing and sales pitches if you don't like them then addresss the government and travel agencies for their inaccuracies. LoveMonkey 03:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

As for St Basil how far from Derinkuyu is Kayseri? As for Roman persecutions didn't Julian the Apostate promise to level Cappadocia to Basil's brother Gregory of Nyssa or the other Cappadocian Gregory? LoveMonkey 03:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I, Aramgar, am neither Turk, nor Greek, nor Armenian. Nor am I of any other ethnicity or religious affiliation that could possibly have a suspect position on Anatolian political issues. My only interest here is a sincere desire to discern truth about the legitimately interesting, polyethnic population of mediaeval Anatolia. I consider neither Google hits nor the History Channel legitimate sources for history.

Well if you are not of any such affliation then why edit out all of the Christian attributes? There are valid history that is and can be proven historically. On what grounds is the History channel not considered a source of information? Again the ultimate Wikipedia question- Who are you to invalidate the History Channel as a validat source? Who are you to validate any historical source, why are you so important?

LoveMonkey 13:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

How dare he indeed! The full production by the History Channel of which the cited YouTube clip is but a part is the episode "Underground Aliens" from the series "Ancient Aliens". Within mere sentences of the claim that (unnamed) scholars believe that the Phrygians are responsible for the engineering the learned scholars of the History Channel advance the notion that perhaps whoever built it had help from -- you guessed it-- aliens. Now this is really sounding like a Reliable Source, isn't it! Clearly you'd have to be completely clueless to question the status of the History Channel as a Reliable Source, especially when the particular series is titled "Ancient Aliens". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.224.81 (talk) 05:34, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

That Hittites, not to say the Phrygians as cited by the Turkish Ministry of Culture, built these underground refuges remains to be cited with authoritative sources. St. Basil was a Cappadocian, certainly; but such an underground village is nowhere mentioned in Basil’s writings nor Vitae. Julian’s persecutions were limited in scope and forced no one underground. Churchmen, both Greek and Syriac, not to mention real live pagans in Antioch, got their lioncloths in a twist, sure. Julian was a consummate blow-hard. If there is anywhere archeological or literary evidence that he actually leveled Cappadocia, I would like to hear about it.

Julian was killed in battle before he could return and make due on the promise. So it stands to reason that Christians where there in Cappadocia before the 7th century. You poor commentary and writing and editing of the article imply that there where no Christians in Cappadocia before the 7th century. Please reply, where there Christians in Cappadocia before the 7th century or not? Don't ask for sources your working on this article you should know the answer.

LoveMonkey 13:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Please, let us talk about what is known about Derinkuyu. Aramgar 05:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I ask you please not to just hit "undo." Please leave the grammar and style adjustment intact. Aramgar 06:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Too bad the grammar error are ones from the original source of the Turkish Government once again go complain to them. LoveMonkey 13:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Cappadocia had significant Christian communities, probably as early as the second century. It is likely that Saint Paul passed through Cappadocia; but whereas we are certain that he visited Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium, there is no solid information about the specifics of his travels in Cappadocia. Nowhere did I deny the presence of Christians in this region. They seem to have been the majority from Roman times up until the 1920s. Nor do I take issue with the thesis that Christians used these underground dwellings in times of persecution: they hid there during the seasonal Arab raids of the ninth and tenth centuries and later during the more sporadic attacks of Turkmen nomads (late eleventh through fourteenth centuries). But these Anatolian peasants were not driven underground by the Romans, whose persecutions were far earlier, short-lived, and primarily focused on urban centers.

It should be clear to any high school student that watching a special on The History Channel cannot take the place of consulting reference works and scholarly articles. Moreover, standards of grammar and style for English Wikipedia should be held to a higher level than those acceptable to the Turkish Ministry of Culture: “Turklish” just doesn’t cut it. Aramgar 17:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Population

I wanted to insert the current population of Derinkuyu as a comparison of the capacity of the underground city, but our article has no data. Could you add it? Error 23:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

See also bloat

LoveMonkey: I disagree that Sümela Monastery and Kaymaklı Monastery ought to be attached to the already too long "See also" list. With the exception of the scholar Spiro Kostof, all of the other sites are in Cappedocia. Sumela and Kaymaakli are in the Pontus. Let us limit the "See also" list to those sites directly related, both temporally and geographically, to Derinkuyu. Regards, Aramgar (talk) 16:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The article is written for an English Wikipedia that has an audence outside of the middle east. The sites are all connected in that they are tourist attractions for Westerns. The sites are all Christian in some relation, and the sites are all in Turkey. The article is so small already that it seems that anything related to it would expand the article, so bloat appears as inappropriate term. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

LoveMonkey: I will have to disagree with you. According to WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a travel guide. If we were to list every Christian monument in Anatolia that might be of interest to tourists, we would have a very long "See also" list indeed. Sümela Monastery and Kaymaklı Monastery are in the Pontus and do not belong. Regards, Aramgar (talk) 20:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright fair enough, if you think they should be removed then go ahead and remove them. I was hoping to add more areas to wikipedia about the underground cities and create enough to have a small category as such, but if you think the correlation between the sites too much of a stretch then so be it. LoveMonkey (talk) 20:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Was the city discovered by a man renovating his home?

I saw this online [2], and came here to see if there were any sources to corroborate it, but found nothing. Is it correct?--84.13.82.245 (talk) 01:41, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Air and water from the same shaft?

I don't understand the sentence "The large 55 m ventilation shaft appears to have been used as a well." It's clear that they both can't use the same space at the same time, so explanatory text is necessary. Or is the sentence completely false? Muistinorsu (talk) 14:39, 4 January 2015 (UTC) I saw a diagram; now I comprehend. Muistinorsu (talk) 14:55, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for Derinkuyu underground city. Looks like a random location withnin the town. What about 38.366667,34.75 ? Or something like that. WikiHannibal (talk) 14:28, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

@WikiHannibal: Open Street Map shows the entrance to the underground city at about 38°22′25″N 34°44′06″E, so I've changed the coordinates to correspond to that location. The coordinates you suggest are outside the town. Better? Deor (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

@Deor: Thanks. That seems to be the spot. I pasted wrong coordinates copied from tr:Derinkuyu. (NB Google shows "Derinkuyu Yeraltı Şehri" as approximately at 38.372724, 34.733818, which seems wrong.) WikiHannibal (talk) 18:05, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

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Citation Needed templates everywhere

We do not need a citation needed template at the end of each paragraph. It looks ridiculous. Compared to many other articles, this one has sufficient references already. If some editors are disturbed by this they may add a template at the beginning of the article. It will help keep it clean and tidy. 786wave (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Remarkably, citation needed templates are needed in places where there aren't citations! The templates aren't just at the end of paragraphs, but sporadically throughout prose; were they to be removed, people may assume entire unsourced sentences are covered by citations relevant to sentences following them, thus they are needed inline. This is also why one header template is inappropriate for this article - identifying which parts are unsourced is useful. And, of course, you didn't add such a header template after removing all the cn templates, which is bad practice. Your opinion of "clean and tidy" is nothing against the WP:V pillar policy. Kingsif (talk) 18:11, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

How about you take a chill pill and put in the effort to add the template or find the sources since you’re such an experienced and accomplished editor? 786wave (talk) 22:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not the one shouting at everyone who tries to help me. Please take a mirror, then a chill pill, then put in the effort to find the sources since you're so adamant on removing cn tags. Kingsif (talk) 23:56, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Condensing of the References section

The lengthy quotes contained in the References section are making the section increasingly harder to use each time an additional large block of text gets added, which must be scrolled past in order to view the entire list. Some of the cited pages are linked to corresponding pages of online versions of the literature they were drawn from, yet the full quotes are still included in the References section which seems redundant. Could these quotes be removed to reduce clutter and streamline the section? For those references not attached to online literature, could their quotes be somehow trimmed for improved readability of the section? Perhaps with a more liberal implementation of “…” to indicate material has been omitted, or by another means suggested in the manual of style. Down time (talk) 15:33, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Sometimes quotations are appropriate with web links (if it's from different parts of the text, if it's not immediately obvious, if it might be restricted, etc.) but otherwise that is exactly what should happen, feel free to do it yourself. Kingsif (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

How about you do it instead of blocking everyone from contributing the way they think is right? 786wave (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Are you stalking me?! If you can read, by the way, you can clearly see that I told the other user above to, er, make the edits they said they wanted to. Kingsif (talk) 23:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

mapping the city

hello, are there real maps available? in caving sience its normal to make maps, so i expect that severall maps are made already and in history as well. like the last Greek citizens probably had those maps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.149.83.125 (talk) 14:49, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I think this source has maps for some of the Cappadocia underground cities (but not sure if for Derinkuyu): [3]https://www.fulcrum.org/concern/monographs/mk61rj48t

Unfortunately, I do not have access to it. Burritok (talk) 15:01, 5 December 2022 (UTC)