Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/南山

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. — Joseph Fox 13:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

南山

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Disambiguation page for non-English word does not belong on English Wikipedia. Fages (talk) 21:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/CJKV task force has links to a number of previous discussions regarding Chinese Japanese Korean Vietnamese character disambiguation pages. If the proposer's rationale is valid, then the contents of Category:Disambiguation pages with Chinese character titles should also be deleted. For particulars on this page, see some discussion that took place on Talk:南山. older ≠ wiser 21:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above. Also, does WP:ENGLISH even qualify for deletion? —ˈtɒdləˈtɒdɪ^{(Toddlertoddy)} 02:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

~~Change name~~ - 南山 is Nanshan (disambiguation). Somehow the wacky idea seems to be developing that if there is no universal agreement on how to transliterate Chinese words, the Chinese originals should be retained. This is very wrong. There is a difference in how Cyrillic is transliterated between the English, American, and Continental systems. Are we to seriously believe that if there is no universal agreement, the English Wikipedia is hereafter to render the disambiguation pages in Cyrillic? That's zany. We have a convention, which is to use the English system unless there is a commonly-accepted spelling that differs. If redirects are needed, they are used. In no case is the Cyrillic used, however, nor should it be. 南山 is Nanshan. There you go. Change this to Nanshan (disambiguation). The chances of an English WP user typing in 南山 and expecting a useful result approaches zero. This use of the Chinese is cutesy and utterly non-standard. Carrite (talk) 02:26, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment ...and some policy for the fans of policy. From the guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English): "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English. Established systematic transliterations (e.g. Hanyu Pinyin and IAST) are preferred." That seems clear, eh? Carrite (talk) 02:30, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. — Logan _Talk ^{Contributions} 03:04, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment what about Category:Disambiguation pages with Chinese character titles. this is an accepted category by consensus, but seems to violate your quoted rule. I just dont understand how we can justify articles like this. I hope im not being insular, but this is the english wikipedia, after all.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:21, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. According to the Wikipedia article traffic statistics tool at toolserver.org/~emw/wikistats/, the page has been viewed 1,454 times in the six-month period of 2011-02-01 – 2011-07-31. That is, on the average, eight times a day. There are days with much more traffic; for example, 2011-08-15 saw 30 page views, according to Henrik's tool at stats.grok.se/en/201003/Main_Page. --Lambiam 06:33, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep 南山 and Nanshan (disambiguation) are not equivalent. Some people expect Nanzan and other expect Namsan. To serve these expectations, and to resolve where 南山 should redirect to, there should be a disambiguation page linking to them. And Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) is for article titles, but disambiguation pages, like redirects, are not articles. See Wikipedia:What is an article?. --08:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC) --Kusunose 08:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - It's very simple. The most common transliteration, Nanshan, I take it, is the main disambiguation page. Namsan is then set up as a redirect page to this. If there is a third common transliteration of 南山, that should be set up as yet another redirect to Nanshan. Honestly, this game could be played for every single Cyrillic word using the letters Й, Ю, Я, Ж, Ч, or starting with Е. There are different transliteration systems for each of these letters between the British, American Library of Congress, and Continental European conventions. Russian speakers may have different "expectations." The guidelines are very clear on this matter and there is no exception made for dab pages vs. articles. This is the English wikipedia and all non-Roman alphabets and characters are to be transliterated into the Roman alphabet according to a standard system of transliteration. Traffic stats don't matter, this is a hard and established guideline. Carrite (talk) 16:40, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, there is no "standard system of transliteration" for Chinese characters. We cannot prescribe that users transliterate Chinese characters according to a standard that does not exist. --Lambiam 17:03, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just pick a system for the main disambiguation and create redirects for every other likely permutation. This seems straightforward... Carrite (talk) 05:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Striking rename vote above, this is actually an unsourced original essay on the various meanings of "南山," a set of dictionary definitions, if you will, disguised as a dab page. There should be established in this article's place the following: (1) Namsan (disambiguation) for the various Korean uses of the word, based on the commonly accepted Korean transliteration; (2) Nanshan (disambiguation) (which already exists), based on the common Chinese tranliteration, for sundry Chinese uses of the word; (3) Nanzan (disambiguation) for the Japanese uses of "Nanzan" and "Nanshan" on Wikipedia. There are no sources showing for this pseudo-dab page, actually an article. Fails General Notability Guidelines. Carrite (talk) 16:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see that your astute observation equally applies to Aberdeen (disambiguation). I now see clearly that this is an unsourced original essay on the various meanings of "Aberdeen", cleverly disguised as a dab page. Thank you for opening my eyes to this unencyclopedic abuse of Wikipedia, which is not a platform for such original research. --Lambiam 17:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By your logic, that means every single dab page that contains Chinese characters should include sources. And what is a notability guideline for a dab page? Also, to the people who are using the romanization argument: Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/CJKV task force. It has already been stated above. If you would like to argue against that whole task force's job, please, do it over there and not here. —ˈtɒdləˈtɒdɪ^{(Toddlertoddy)} 19:19, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There should not be dab pages for words in Chinese characters on the English wikipedia, according to my reading of the guideline above, which seems clear. The argument you are making is WP:OTHERSTUFF. They should all be transliterated or gone. Carrite (talk) 05:52, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - why should the WP:English wikipedia provide article/dab pages for non-English languages? If someone is going to use the WP Search function to find these charactors, they will be found within a Article with an english title. Does WP allow ALL languages to be to be used as titles? ... or is there a walled garden around Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/CJKV task force's pages ? Exit2DOS ^{• Ctrl • Alt • Del} 07:22, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The English-language Wikipedia certainly allows French, German, Latin, etc. in the titles of disambiguation pages (e.g. raison d'être, Kreis, sonus) and even articles! (e.g. casus belli). We also have non-Latin characters in page titles; e.g. Мир and א. --Lambiam 08:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a red herring. This Dab page that we are talking about is not reachable from a Roman alphabet keyboard. Use a non-Roman character Redir to get to it if you want to, but Dabs & Articles should be in Roman characters on the English WP. Exit2DOS ^{• Ctrl • Alt • Del} 09:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Categorizing my reply as OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a red herring. You asked a direct question ("Does WP allow ALL languages to be to be used as titles?"); I simply attempted to answer it. Or was this meant to be a rhetorical question? By the way, Raison d'être is likewise unreachable from my standard 26-letter keyboard; fortunately, there are all kinds of tools to go beyond its limitations. And actually, when I'm looking up something on Wikipedia that I encountered while reading and want to know more about, I usually don't retype it but simply copy-paste it, so I don't need the keyboard at all.

Note: This debate has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. —Michaela den (talk) 14:46, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Raison d'être as Raison d'etre is very reachable, that is why it is a red herring. Exit2DOS ^{• Ctrl • Alt • Del} 21:57, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Since non-Roman re-directs that both: 1) translate to the target in question. 2) are native to the target subject are almost never deleted, it is logical to expect that some users will be using these as search terms, and when there is ambiguity, a DAB page needs to be in place. Hence WP:FORRED extends to DAB pages as well. —Xiaoyu: 聊天 (T) 和 贡献 (C) 22:01, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Xiaoyu. The argument that the page should redirect to Nanshan (disambiguation) doesn't make sense: what if the characters in context refer to (and should be transliterated as) Minamiyama? Chinese characters being what they are, it is quite impossible to design a consistent "system of transliteration", as has been advocated by some, also not when confined to one standard language such as Japanese. (And even if it were, how could we set up a training program for the users of Wikipedia to master and use it? It takes Japanese kids some six years of learning to become fluent readers.) --Lambiam 08:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: It doesn't hurt to have a non-English redirect or disambiguation page; it's not an article in itself, so it should be fine. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:56, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The question here is not merely of different transcription standards but of actually differing languages. It is simply not possible to "pick one language" and arbitrarily call that the "standard transcription". Furthermore, the argument that "The chances of an English WP user typing in 南山 and expecting a useful result approaches zero" is contradicted by actual evidence. People put non-Roman characters into the English Wikipedia search box all the time. For example, about a thousand readers trying to get to the Roh Moo-hyun article in the days after he committed suicide used the hangul redirect [1]. cab (call) 03:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is not a WP:BIGNUMBER when compared to its english equivilent. Exit2DOS ^{• Ctrl • Alt • Del} 07:49, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your reference to WP:BIGNUMBER is misleading and irrelevant. This is a disambiguation page, not an article. We're not discussing notability. We're discussing serving readers of the encyclopedia to locate information. I'm sure we can quibble all day about whether 1 out of 200 readers "approaches zero", but let me quote WP:R#KEEP, a reasoning which applies also to disambiguation page: "If someone says they find a redirect useful, they probably do. You might not find it useful—this is not because the other person is being untruthful, but because you browse Wikipedia in different ways." cab (call) 08:50, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it was right on the money. You provided a number infering it was a lot. I showed that it really wasn't. WP:R does not apply because this is not a Redirect, no matter how much !Keeps want it to be. (I have no problem with a Redir being titled in a non-Englich language, I even stated so earlier.) This is why WP:D exists and says "English spelling is preferred to that of non-English languages. You have identified the problem that multiple different (non-English) languages use these Charactors for very different meanings and that transcribing it into English as any 1 'Term' is not possible. So we should not force an unacceptable page where it will never work properly nor will it conform to accepted standards! Let the Search function find ALL references to these characters on the 'pedia as it is intended to do. There is nothing that says "We must have redirs and dabs everywhere". When it is easy and helpful to do so, by all means, however (IMO) it is not possible in this case. Exit2DOS ^{• Ctrl • Alt • Del}

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.