Talk:Markos Botsaris

His ethnic identity is being ignored

There is an issue here with people failing to understand the difference between ethnicities and nationalities. Ethnically, Marko Boçari was an Arvanite, Christian albanophone Albanian. This was well documented by many authors of the time as well as today's historians. Ethnicities existed way before nations. The modern Greek nation consists of more than one ethnicity. One of those ethnicities is clearly Albanian-Arvanite to which Marko Boçari belonged to. He even created an Albanian-Greek dictionary due to lack of knowledge of Greek by Arvanites in the region at the time. It is true Marko Bocari fought against the Ottoman Empire for Greek independence for the newly established Greek state, however he was an Albanophone. Hiding this would be doing a great disservice to the truth and I don't believe wikipedia articles should be affected by Balkan politics. It is not all black and white. Please see contemporary "Tribes of Albania" by Robert Elsie p.225 where Marko Bocari's ethnic identity is clearly noted. JoeTBA (talk) 23:15, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

The dictionary is already mentioned. No one is trying to hide anything. However your claim that he identified as "Albanian" will not be included, because he did not identify as such. Khirurg (talk) 01:40, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

But he also did not identify as Greek.--Lorik17 (talk) 19:28, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid that he did identified as Greek.Alexikoua (talk) 19:45, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

We dont know as Marko Boqari claim herself politically, but we all know he were Albanian, had Albanian Costume, lived in a albanian socio-cultural clans, had the albanian kanun, wear Albanian national Costumes and spoke Albanien what the dictionary clearly prove, like all new history books.--178.197.225.244 (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Who gives a shit about his ethnic identity. Please stop. People like Botsaris did not want to identify as Albanians, just like the rest of the Souliotes and Arvanites. They made thier choice. No need to rant about garbage like that. Devote your time to something better. Cheers.Resnjari (talk) 16:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Please show us what term they used back then to refer to what today you call "Albanians", if you can answer truthfully you will find out the ethnicity he self identified as! Also the term Greek back then used to have a similar meaning to Christian not to ethnic Hellen ;) Aleks1912 (talk) 10:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

JoeTBA On the one hand I can sympathize with your viewpoint to a degree -- yes, whether dead people personally identified as X or Y is not verifiable, and yes, how you feel does not determine what you are. Sure Botsaris/Bocari/whatever had Albanian descent, he and other Souliotes also fought alongside Greek-speaking Greeks for what became Greece, he's not around to be interviewed, one can legitimately call him either/both Greek or/and Albanian and not be totally wrong. But while it's fine to talk about Napoleon's Corsican/Italian heritage (we do), the same does not apply in Balkan topics. It's a slippery slope from "Markos Botsaris" to the resumption of fights over whether Skanderbeg should be renamed to Ivan/Ioannis/Cthulhu Kastriotic/Kastriotis/2020, plus other similar disputes (Dushan, Ataturk, Obilic, literally anyone from N-Macedonia 1800-1945, how could I forget Tesla, etc).

I'd recommend you move on to content creation (with reliable sources of course) on something that interests you, it'll be much more pleasant. --Calthinus (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Since you are trying to make a point on an irrelevant topic, have you found any letter where Castriotis signs as anything other than Ioannes or Jiovanni? Thanks for the answers. Oh, I almost forgot the point: Souliotes declared they are Greeks in the official documents regarded as the first Greek Constitution, 1/1/1822. Greek text available in wikisource. Here is a translation of the first lines:

" In the Name of the Holy and indivisible Trinity. The Greek Nation, under the horrible ottoman rule, unable to carry the heaviest ... yoke ...". Co-signed by the Souli representatives Fotos Bomporis and Zois Panou (Ζώης Πάνου) [1]. Have a nice day.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

• The man identified himself as a Greek. What seems to be the problem here? Make it clear, please. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 10:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

  Greek had a similar meaning to Christian back then, or at least that was the perception of those clans back then! The same goes to Turk, you could be an arvanit muslim and you would identify as turk while a Christian Arvanit as Greek you get me? THose were different meanings compared to today perception of those same terms, dont play the duck here filthy ΓΚΡΕΚΟ! Aleks1912 (talk) 10:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

The dictionary again.

It seems that somebody doesn't like this part, or, why is it deleted?

The Greek–Albanian dictionary

The original manuscript of the dictionary is at the National Library in Paris (Supplément Grec 251). Botsaris titled his dictionary “Lexicon of the simple Romaic and Arbanitic language” (Λεξικόν της Ρωμαϊκοις και Αρβανητηκής Απλής (sic)). The Greek terms are in columns on the left of the pages, not in alphabetical order, and the Albanian words on the right, written in Greek letters. Apart from single words, the dictionary includes complexes of words or short phrases. The Greek entries are in total 1701 and the Albanian 1494.

On the first page there is a hand-written notice by Pouqueville: “Ce lexique est écrit de la main de Marc Botzari à Corfou 1809 devant moi.” This manuscript, which includes also a kind of Greek–Albanian self-teaching method with dialogues written by Ioannes Vilaras and a French-Albanian glossary by Pouqueville, was donated by the latter to the Library in 1819. The dictionary was dictated to the young M. Botsaris by his father Kitsos (1754–1813), his uncle Notis (1759–1841) and his father-in-law Christakis Kalogerou from Preveza. Titos Yochalas, a Greek historian who studied and edited the manuscript, noticing that some Greek words are translated into Albanian in more than one way, believes that M. Botsaris was writing the Greek words and the elders were translating into Albanian. As many of the entries seem unlikely to be useful either for the Suliots or the Albanians of that time and circumstances, Yochalas believes that the dictionary was composed after Pouqueville's initiative, possibly as a source for a future French-Albanian dictionary. He also observes that the Albanian phrases are syntaxed as if were Greek, concluding that either the mother tongue of the authors was the Greek or the Greek language had a very strong influence on the Albanian, if the latter was possibly spoken in Souli (Yochalas, p. 53). The Albanian idiom of the dictionary belongs to the Tosk dialect of south Albanian and retains many archaic elements, found also in the dialect spoken by the Greco-Albanian communities of South Italy and Sicily. In the Albanian entries there are many loans from Greek (approx. 510), as well as from Turkish (approx. 190) and Italian (21). Yochalas Titos (editor, 1980) The Greek-Albanian Dictionary of Markos Botsaris. Academy of Greece, Athens 1980 (in Greek), Γιοχάλας Π. Τίτος, Το ελληνο-αλβανικόν λεξικόν του Μάρκου Μπότσαρη (φιλολογική έκδοσις εκ του αυτογράφου), Ακαδημία Αθηνών, 1980.]

Reverted changes

@Deji Olajide1999: What I am "trying to do" is rewrite a poorly worded sentence. You also reverted my edit on Drachma because you didn't bother to check the changes made properly. No quote exists for the ridiculous claim that the Balkans had no ethnic groups in 1809, and even if it did it would be the opinion of a single author. Djks1 (talk) 18:55, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

No you aren't doing (only) that. You are removing sourced content along with "re-wording" sentences + you added Botsaris' Albanian name in the lead without consensus. Nevertheless, I will proceed to add the quote right now. Deji Olajide1999 (talk) 19:34, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Why do you quote rewording haha. Yes I did reword it as it comes across as quite biased. I indeed was adding his name in Albanian (ie what his family would've called him, it's his language after all). Anyway, thanks for adding the quote, I still say such a statement should not be included as it makes a highly contentious claim that ethnicites did not exist in 1809. Regardless, I understand that this article along with other articles regarding Souliotes & Arvantines are Greek playspaces, nothing must go against the deluded narrative, so I won't bother you further, good day. Djks1 (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Souliots

@Khirurg: The article on Souliotes literally describes them as Albanian by origin - Souliot is not an ethnicity, it is a regional identity of a peoples who spoke Albanian and were Albanian by blood due to their origins. The literal article which you refer to describes them as Albanian, there is nothing wrong with keeping that consistency here. I will post this on the TP's of Kitzos Tzavelas and Markos Botsaris where you have reverted me because I do not want to engage in an edit war, and you will explain exactly why this article cannot say the Souliots are Albanian by origin. I do not think placing the ethnicity of the Souliots is necessary in the lede because of obvious reasons, especially on characters such as Marko and Kitsos, but having it in the article is not harmful.

Your argument for inclusion boils down to "why not", which is not a reason to include something. The onus is on you to show why the addition is necessary. So far, I am not convinced why this is necessary. "Albanian Souliotes" is not poor form because it is largely redundant. Where there non-Albanian Souliotes? No, so then it's basically repetition. For example, for someone who is Sarakatsani, we just say "he is a Sarakatsani", not "he is a Greek Sarakatsani", because it's well known that Sarakatsani are of Greek origin, so "Greek Sarakatsani" is redundant. Also, many readers might associate them with the Albanian state, which they had no association with. In fact, after independence, they were associated with the Greek state, and even held high offices. The question of their origin is complicated, and is not as simple as you present it. Thus it is appropriate to be discussed at Souliotes, and not in the articles of individual commanders. Khirurg (talk) 03:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

For those who are not familiar with the topic, they will have no idea on what exactly the Souliots are (as I'm sure there are many who have not heard of the unique community before) - a short descriptor, such as "Botsaris was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, an Orthodox Albanian community in Greece, in the region of Souli, Epirus." or "Botsaris was born into one of the leading clans of the Souliotes, an Eastern Orthodox community of Albanian origin, in the region of Souli, Epirus." would suffice enough to provide a basic understanding of what the Souliots were. You can add "who now identify as Greeks" or something like that, but there is nothing wrong with a short descriptor. "Albanian Souliots" alone is indeed rather questionable. Botushali (talk) 07:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Souliotes were also classified as Greeks in Ottoman society as their article describes, so I wonder why this information should be hidden here while on the other hand their Albanian side should be emphasized in all related articles. That's the definition of POV.Alexikoua (talk) 08:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Because they are 'Albanian' by origin, and for the last two centuries or so 'Greek' by self-noted identity. They are described as "Greek" by Ottomans for religious reasons, which I am sure you know. Like I said, feel free to add "who have assimilated into a Greek identity" etc., but the point of them being Albanians by origin still stands and is still relevant in actually defining the community. That way, their assimilated Greek identity and their Albanian roots can both be emphasised evenly, because that's what they are - point is, a short descriptor on the population would improve the article. Botushali (talk) 09:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

They are described as "Greek" by Ottomans for religious reasons?, no they were described as Greeks because of multiple social reasons, even Ali Pasha's secretary described them as "Greeks fighting the Albanians". You need to become familiarized with wp:NPOV.Alexikoua (talk) 11:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

• This discussion is irrelevant for this article. You should go to Talk:Souliotes and discuss the best way to describe that subject. This article should adhere to WP:reliable sources. If relevant sources describe the subject as Greek, then we should do the same. We should not perform WP:synthesis of sources to make a conclusion which is not found in the sources. @Botushali: You should adhere to WP:BRD which is the standard of behavior in Wikipedia. When your edit is reverted, you should engage in discussion with the other editor, not revert them. Vanjagenije (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Lede

I am going to leave this here prior to making my edit because I highly doubt it will be without contention. Calling Boçari a Greek is misleading, and those who want to keep it there are insisting that being a Greek is more of an idea than an ethnic reality. Marko was a Souliote, which means that ethnically, he was of Albanian origin. I am tempted to add "of Albanian origin" too but it's all one step at a time, and the first thing that needs to be done is have "Greek" removed from the lede because that is not what he is. After the whole debacle at the Souliotes article, this is a necessary and warranting change - the lede there states "The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Albanian tribal community in the area of Souli in Epirus from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century, who via their participation in the Greek War of Independence came to identify with the Greek nation.", and since Marko was a Souliote, his lede should follow along these lines. Botushali (talk) 22:24, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok, first of all, ethnicity doesn't go in the lede per WP:MOSETHNICITY because it is not directly related to the subject's notability. Botsaris (what is "Bocari"?) is notable for many things, but his ethnicity, whether Greek or Albanian is not one of them. However national affiliation does go into the lede, and Botsaris fought on the Greek side and that should be mentioned. It's very easy to find sources for this. There is literally a world of sources describing Botsaris as a "Greek captain" or something similar - because he fought on the Greek side. I can live with removal of link to the Greeks article, but if "Albanian origin" is added it will be swiftly removed per WP:MOSETHNICITY. The ethnic origin of the Souliotes is discussed at Souliotes, and this article is not the place to get into that, especially the lede. Khirurg (talk) 23:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I’m happy with the new change - by the way, Boçari is his last name, Botsaris is the “Grekofied” version, but that doesn’t matter. End of the day, he simply cannot have “Greek” in the lede because he just wasn’t Greek. Botushali (talk) 00:37, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

"Grekofied"? Seriously? "Botsaris" is how he is referred to by all the sources, and that's how it is. If you disagree, you can always file a move request. Btw he was a Greek General [2], and that will be added Khirurg (talk) 00:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, "Grekofied", Albanians do not traditionally have "os" on their last names. And yes, most sources used Botsaris, hence why the article is titled "Botsaris". No idea what you are complaining about this time. Being a general of Western Greece is fine, but calling him a "Greek" general is misleading. Anyways, it is sorted now. Botushali (talk) 00:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

A 'general of the Greek army' is a 'Greek army general', that's the correct way to describe the subject here per wp:MOS.Alexikoua (talk) 02:17, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Also describing him first as a chieftain and then as a general is clearly in violation of wp:MOSINTRO: commanding generals are primarily known as such and this should be stated at the very beginning. It would be ridiculous to believe that he is primarily known as a chieftain before the revolution.Alexikoua (talk) 02:38, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

The order in which his most important contributions is not so concerning - what does matter is that he was not a Greek, and to call him such is misleading. Call him a Hellenic Army general, or something along those lines, but Greek is misleading. Botushali (talk) 03:05, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Exactly what makes most notable a military figure such as him as that he became a commanding general. If he sometime previously was a chieftain that's obviously less notable.Alexikoua (talk) 03:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I think "Greek army general of Souliote origin" would be an acceptable compromise, without the link to Greeks. The Hellenic Army was founded in 1828, so "Hellenic Army" won't work here, and "army" and "general" should therefore not be capitalized. Khirurg (talk) 03:24, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

See for example David Petraeus, his origin stays in the relevant section. I believe "Greek army general and Souliote captain" (or captain of the Souliotes) describes him fine.Alexikoua (talk) 03:26, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

The sources are clear that he was not Greek, despite fighting in the Greek War of Independence. Please read the talk page of the Souliotes article, where his family history features prominently. Please do not dispute well-established knowledge. The lead can state that he was a Souliote chieftain and hero of the war for Greece. Ethnicity can be further discussed below. Çerçok (talk) 12:35, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

See the lead for King Otto: [3]. If you want to include "general of the Greek army" that is OK. Çerçok (talk) 12:37, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

The sources are clear he was a Greek army general and this is the most important fact that makes him notable. This is quite typical for military figures as I've clearly explained. On the other hand origins have their part in the relevant section. Read the Souliotes talkpage? Souliotes is not an article about a military figure (a Greek army general), it appears you are confused.Alexikoua (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

No, he was a prominent chieftain coming form a prominent family even before the revolution. You cannot force untrue statements into articles. If you want to include "general of the Greek army" that is OK. Çerçok (talk) 01:03, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Yet again POV & OR: At least 90% of the related bibliography refers to him as being part of the Greek army (in works of art his pre-Greek army era depictions are zero). Also 'Greek Army general' means 'general of the Greek army'. Mazower also presents him as a "Greek leader".Alexikoua (talk) 03:03, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Describing him as a Greek is misleading, he was born before the period in which Greece was formed and was not an ethnic Greek. I would also prefer "General of the Greek Army". Botushali (talk) 06:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

"part of the Greek army" and "general of the Greek army" are fine too. Çerçok (talk) 07:44, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

"Also 'Greek Army general' means 'general of the Greek army'"

If the meaning is the same then you should accept the wording we proposed. Çerçok (talk) 08:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

He was at the Greek side, was a commanding general, you should accept the wording that he was a Greek army general.Alexikoua (talk) 01:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

"He was at the Greek" side doesn't in any way imply that he was Greek. Your wording is not neutral. Ahmet Q. (talk) 07:27, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

(unindent) Regarding the name, a search on Google Scholar for the Albanian variant returns 13 hits [4] for English language sources between 2000 and 2022. When the results are inspected closer, one of the hits is actually Albanian language [5] (only the abstract is in English), one is Italian one is German [https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fbaf/124d45800209d3e74899c132029c52252b20.pdf, and one is some kind of wiki [6]. So the grand total of English language publications between 2000 and 2022 that just mention "Marko Bocari" is...9. In other words, totally undue for the lede. Khirurg (talk) 00:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

It would be really nice if you could stop edit-warring and using brute force to remove reliable sources like you are again doing. Markos Botsaris was an ethnic Albanian and thus his native name should obviously be included in the lead like for countless other political figures. Also, his native name returns 33 hits [7] which is quite considerable and not undue at all when we now that his common name in English has 117 hits [8]. I would recommend to you look for actual arguments before reverting again. Ahmet Q. (talk) 07:41, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

As part of your learning process on how to conduct a proper Google search, you should restrict results to English language sources, since this is the English wikipedia. In this case, even with your parameters, we only get 16 results, several of which are non-English but are included because the abstract is in English. So, still less than 10 results, so forget it. Khirurg (talk) 13:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

16 English results are significant in comparison to the only 91 results for Markos Botsaris. Çerçok (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)