User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Again with the bad archiving practice, but I want us to take this opportunity to talk about ways that Wikipedia might be improved after this incident. I posted this to wikien-l, and am posting here to generate an on-wiki discussion here. Please stay on topic, and please feel free to delete random trolling comments (personal attacks) that do not contribute to a positive discussion of how we might grow. Not everyone will agree with this proposal, and that is fine of course, we need a healthy dialogue around the verifiability of credentials. But random accusations of conspiracy and corruption are just boring personal attacks. Let's keep this productive and positive.--Jimbo Wales 09:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to the EssJay scandal, I want to bring back an old proposal of mine from 2 years ago for greater accountability around credentials:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-May/022085.html

At the time, this seemed like a plausibly decent idea to me, and the reaction at the time was mostly positive, with some reasonable caveats and improvements:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-May/thread.html to read the entire thread of "An idea".

Nowadays, I bring back the proposal for further consideration in light of the EssJay scandal. I think it imperative that we make some positive moves here... we have a real opportunity here to move the quality of Wikipedia forward by doing something that many have vaguely thought to be a reasonably good idea if worked out carefully.

For anyone who is reading but not online, I will sum it up. I made a proposal that we have a system whereby people who are willing to verify their real name and credentials are allowed a special notification. "Verified Credentials". This could be a rather open ended system, and optional.

The point is to make sure that people are being honest with us and with the general public. If you don't care to tell us that you are a PhD (or that you are not), then that's fine: your editing stands or falls on its own merit. But if you do care to represent yourself as something, you have to be able to prove it.

This policy will be coupled with a policy of gentle (or firm) discouragement for people to make claims like those that EssJay made, unless they are willing to back them up.

How to confirm? What counts as confirmation? What sorts of things need confirmation? These are very interesting questions, as there are many types of situations. But one thing that we have always been very very good at is taking the time to develop a nuanced policy.

Just to take a simple example: how to verify a professor? This strikes me as being quite simple in most cases. The professor gives a link to his or her faculty page at the college or university, including the email there, and someone emails that address to say "are you really EssJay?" If the answer is yes, then that's a reasonable confirmation.

We can imagine some wild ways that someone might crack that process (stealing a professor's email account, etc.) but I think we need not design around the worst case scenario, but rather design around the reasonable case of a reasonable person who is happy to confirm credentials to us.

(This is a lower level of confirmation than we might expect an employer to take, of course.)

For someone like me, well, I have an M.A. in finance. I could fax a copy of the degree to the office. Again, someone could fake their credentials, but I don't think we need to design against some mad worst case scenario but just to have a basic level of confirmation.

Pseudonyms

I have never understood why a contributor of information, someone, who wanted to share his knowledge with this community, would keep his identity anonymous. How credible can information be, where the author is not willing to stay by his point? Britta Scholz, Student at SDU Odense, Denmark — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.225.156.121 (talk • contribs)

You might feel differently after having been a contributor for a variety of articles you get death threats or other forms of harrassement in real life. Furthermore, some users must contribute anonymously because they will run into problems with their home governments if they do not. For example, an editor in Thailand could be prosecuted for adding information critical of the king. JoshuaZ 08:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Many qualified academics and professionals edit here under pseudonyms. The reasons are endless: Liability, concern about stalking and harrassment, threats and so on, professional restrictions, basic privacy concerns. Ban pseuodonyms and WP will lose many of its most helpful editors. The only worry is the abuse of pseudonyms with the posting of dodgy CVs. Gwen Gale 10:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Many peope are tied by employment contracts preventing them writing openly other for those to whom they are under contract. Other (perhaps in the judiciary) should not openly express their views and opinions. Some editors may be politicians who do not neccessarily want to toe the party line in their private life - there are numerous reasons why highly reputable people need to keep low profiles, but they have an enormous amount to contribute to a project such as this Giano 11:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

All of the above. Thus the option of anonymity has been absolutely central to this project. In the end, it may be less critical for me than for some others (long story), but these points that Joshua, Gwen and Giano are making have to be emphasised. Anonymity should be seen as non-negotiable, and if there is going to be some kind of credentials scheme for users it must operate in a way that doesn't compromise anonymity, either by putting personal details into unsafe hands or by giving some kind of elite position to those well-credentialed editors who don't feel the need to preserve anonymity. Anything that threatens this seems to me like the wrong reaction to the Essjay debacle. Sorry to sound negative about change (though I have put my own positive suggestions elsewhere on the page). Metamagician3000 11:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This line of reasoning is particularly troubling. For instance, the first example cited by Giano openly states that anonymity is a way of hiding while breaking a contractual obligation. No amount of pseudonyms changes who the legal entity writing for the encyclopedia is. In the second example Giano openly states that anonymity is a way for people in prominent positions to circumvent social structural constraints unofficially placed upon them due to their status. While this isn't breaking the law (or maybe at times it is) it certainly is socially irresponsible. Who asked members of the judiciary, for instance, to become members of the judiciary? Why would they not be able to disclose their real identities? Who are we here to shun the official and unofficial constraints associated with a particular social role? Most certainly we should consider the consequences of doing so. The last example is just simply deplorable. When one becomes a politician one officially and unofficially enters into a specific kind of relationship with ones constituents, with public institutions, etc. etc. Certainly some matters can remain private but others simply should not. Transparency is essential if some form of trust is to be engendered in a civil democracy. Providing avenues for such figures to avoid their public roles, again is simply unethical and I for one don't want my experience of democracy to have anything to do with it. I feel, reading a lot of these arguments, that too many people here are lost in the culture of the project to such an extent that they begin to see taken for granted aspects of this community as essential rights, without understanding that they may have dire implications in the world out there. Just my two cents. Cheers.PelleSmith 14:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• "Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them". Act II, Scene V Twelth Night. Are you seriously sugesting that those who in real life are very high profile, should be banned from editing Wikipedia, merely because they wish to do so quietly, without drawing attention to themselves? A Supreme Court Judge or the President of Human Rights Comission editing Wikipedia could add a lot, but immagine what targets they woudl be. Democracy and basic rights work two ways for all people. Giano 17:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

These are helpful thoughts but the "bigger picture," as you put it in your edit summary, is that Wikipedia would grind to a halt if pseudonyms were banned. Moreover, pseudonym use has aught to do with CV misrepresentation. Individual editors should decide for themselves (and take the personal responsibility) about whether there are professional or other reasons as to if it's fitting or seemly to edit under a pseudonym, since IMHO WP as an org cannot reasonably make this decision for each editor. Gwen Gale 14:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I fully understand what you are saying, however, you have exemplified exactly what I find troubling when you cage the "bigger picture" in the world of Wikipedia (which I want to strongly dissociate from my sense of a "bigger picture" outside of Wikipedia). In the end it is not to ourselves that we have to adjudicate the knowledge we produce, but to our readers, to those "out there" who consume it (or conversely shun it). I'm not going to harp on the issues I raised above, but I will add that by supporting the "need" for anonymity in those types of circumstances we bring down the level of trust that anyone can reasonably have in what we produce. I would also like to respectfully disagree that pseudonym use has nothing to do with CV misrepresentation (however keep in mind that this thread was about pseudonyms and not CV misrepresentation). It is the fictional identity, built upon the pseudonym, that enables misrepresentation of the kind made by Essjay. It doesn't guarantee it of course, but it enables. There is also a fuzzy line between a member of the judiciary, for instance, editing entries about justice issues as if he/she were a layman and a layman editing as if he/she were a member of the judiciary. The second case is simply more clearcut, but without transparency we tend to assume a great deal and lets not forget as much. I should be clear that in the end I'm not sure what is preferable (perhaps anonymity for instance), and I am not making a case for changing the policy in this regard. What I am making a case for is looking outside of the immediate needs or concerns of editors here who want to protect their identities in order to engage a dialog about what this implies outside of Wikipedia amongst our consumers, amongst our critics, amongst those for whom we really work unless we are simply narcissistically developing an encyclopedia for ourselves, and I sure as heck hope we're not. In the end, unless we're willing to engage this dialog how will we look to this outside audience?PelleSmith 15:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok but if Wikipedia is chaveled by a lack of users what's the pith? Meanwhile block anyone who tries to assert their verified CV in an edit, which should be supported only by citations, not authority. Gwen Gale 15:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't particularly want to contribute to an encyclopedia unless I think people can trust its contents, because I see no practical purpose to it. There is too much potential here, currently, for me not to stay, but if no one uses the encyclopedia because they don't trust it? Come on I think for most editors the answer to that is simple. I think I've said everything I want or need to on this page. Thanks and cheers.PelleSmith 15:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think your thoughts are worth pondering. I also think folks will trust Wikipedia more when/if word gets out that MUD CVs are banned and article content is supported only by references to verifiable sources and weighted according to WP's already helpful NPoV standards (lots of editors still don't follow or even know about these yet). With all due respect, I don't think this has anything to do with disclosing true identity, especially if these policies are warded by a leadership whose identities have been vetted and who have acknowledged accountability for their decisions. Gwen Gale 15:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

What is MUD, and why are you talking about banning CVs? If mentioning credentials on one's own user page is banned then I'll be forced to leave; I don't use my credentials in debates, but I have them, and don't care to hide who I am for those who take the effort to look. —David Eppstein 16:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, David. That really puts things in perspective for me. To wit, I am not willing to have my credentials vetted just so I can display them on my Wikipedia userpage, but neither do I see the need to use them to win debates; if people are intimidated by my credentials, that's their problem. // Internet Esquire 17:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Read about MUDs here. I am not talking about banning CVs. As I've said earlier, I agree with Jimbo's suggestion about verfying CVs posted to user pages. It's true I think WP could do without CVs altogether but whilst my thoughts on that are hard core, my tolerance for seeing vetted CVs on userpages is rather high. Truth be told, I've seen so many dodgy CVs here I stopped looking at them long ago. My take on this would likely change if I thought they were mostly vetted and ok. I do think the assertion of a CV in an edit dispute should be blockable. Most academics are trained to support their assertions (and even much of their original research) with citations and in my experience when this is done skillfully, cranks flee. Gwen Gale 16:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

My experience with cranks is that they're harder to discourage than that. But if citation based arguments don't discourage them, argument from authority won't either. —David Eppstein 17:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that fully supporting an article with citations to verifiable sources can be hard. Doing so wontedly chases off cranks in my experience. We do so agree that cranks could give a toss about anyone's CV, unless someone with a CV agrees with them, or some unlucky academic has by accident written something that could be taken that way, then see how the cranks cite that CV! Gwen Gale 18:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

If cranks hang around despite citations to verifiable sources, and contradict these with uncited material or citations to rubbish--there's WP:DE for that. --EngineerScotty 00:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

My curriculum vitae at Wikipedia is the sum total of my edits, and Wikipedia is highly transparent. "Wetman" may not be my real name, but I am scarcely anonymous here. Like everyone else, I put my reputation on the line with every edit. --Wetman 05:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Never heard of you. Yes, I could go review your edit history, if I had no better use for a few hours. But, I do. Hell of an inefficient reputation system we've got here. But, it doesn't matter anyway. We should ban usernames and edit only with ip's, because citation is all that matters. As many have said, "a good edit is a good edit", and I can't imagine how seeing a username might help me judge that. Derex 01:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This would be a grotesque violation of privacy; no chance whatsoever of being adopted. Newyorkbrad 01:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Replace "ip" with randomly assigned & difficult to remember number. It wasn't a serious proposal though. My point is that Wikipedia is already constructed around reputations — that's why we have usernames. It's just not a very efficient reputation mechanism. However, many of the same arguments that people use against credentials apply to username reputations. Derex 01:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Conservapedia and the GFDL

Hi Jimbo. I took a look at the Conservapedia article today and noticed a quote from you regarding Conservapedia which, upon first reading it, I agreed with in principle (while also personally considering Conservapedia's policy to be misguided). It reads "Free culture knows no bounds . . . We welcome the reuse of our work to build variants."[1] I took a look at the talk page thereafter and noticed a subsection that I believe might be of interest to you. A Wikipedia editor noted that s/he thought that Conservapedia was copying a Wikipedia article and that s/he did not believe that Conservapedia uses the GFDL for its content. After a bit of looking, I reached the same conclusion; I see no evidence that Conservapedia releases its content under the GFDL, nor does the website appear to have any copyright policy at all right now. Thus, it seems that they perhaps default to the statutory copyright regime, at least for now, which is certainly incompatible with "free culture" and informational sharing.

That said, I wonder if you would consider retracting or amending your statment on Conservapedia, or at least consider their approach to copyright if asked to comment about Conservapedia in the future? Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

If you give examples of copying we can look into it (see WP:MF), but one article is all that bad. If they were copying outright this would be an immediate problem, but it is probably an unwitting copyvio by someone who didn't understand Wikipedia's license, just as we have so many copyvios left here. Prodego ^talk 22:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

What article? C.m.jones 01:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

More important, I think, than the alleged copying, which I believe was already corrected per a comment at Talk:Conservapedia, is the impression left for readers of Jimbo's comment describing Conservapedia as part of the "free culture" movement, when its copyright policy (or lack thereof, defaulting to statutory copyright law) clearly indicates that it is not part of this movement. Obviously, they can't use Wikipedia content unless they license it under the GFDL; that's pretty clear cut and can be handled on a case by case basis when copying occurs. I'm merely concerned that most who see Jimbo's comment will be left with an incorrect impression . . . unless Jimbo amends his comment or comments differently if asked about Conservapedia again in the future. I apologize if my point wasn't as clear as it should have been in my above comment. · j e r s y k o talk · 01:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I have criticized Conservapedia in multiple interviews for not using a free license.--Jimbo Wales 09:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Ahh. Thanks for the reply. After searching, however, I wasn't able to find a reported instance of that criticism. Obviously, you cannot control what is and is not reported when you give interviews, and reports seem to have focused almost exclusively on the "free culture" quote thus far. If you have one readily available, a link would be helpful, otherwise I'll continue to search and hope something pops up. Thanks again. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

apology is enough?

Mr. Jimbo Wales, you still think that an apology is enough? You still say that you "request his resignation". You should have the moral courage to say that he has been banned for his glaring deception. Don't you think that it is now required that all the articles written/reviewed/edited by him should be re-examined now or removed from wikipedia.

You say that wikipedia is build on trust but you don't seem to really care about building and maintaining it.

I don't see any reason for a review of Essjay's edits, besides his religious edits. He was a superb editor, despite his identity deception. If you don't think Jimbo's apology is enough, then what do you want from him? --KZ ^{Talk • Vandal • Contrib} 04:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I do see a reason to review Essjay's edits, and (in doing so) I intend to use that seminal work "Catholicism for Dummies," as it has been recommended to me by Wikipedia's foremost scholar on Catholicism.

In other words, Essjay's deception brings all of his contributions to Wikipedia in doubt, and all of those contributions should be reviewed post haste. // Internet Esquire 05:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Fortunately, most of his contribs have been community service (i.e. improving the Wikipedia community), so I doubt there will be too many issues. — Deckiller 05:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't read his edits, but I read he used false credentials to impress upon others. Have you read all? Are you willing to take responsibility to answer those who might be misguided by Ryan Jordan's misinformed words. I want Mr. Wales to state that next time this sort of thing happens he wouldn't jump to defend some liar just because he has been a long time contributor to Wikipedia. I want him to make a plan that it doesn't happen again. I want him to make a plan to find out who else is doing the same thing Ryan Jordan was doing. I want Wikipedia community to show their contempt for lying and liars. I want them to stop praising impostors and show their allegiance to truth and accuracy of information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.115.151 (talk • contribs)

When did Jimbo actually praise Essjay's behavior as an imposter? Also please sign your post. --KZ ^{Talk • Vandal • Contrib} 07:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo didn't praise him KZ did by saying " he was a superb editor" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.97.125 (talk • contribs)

And in my point of view he was. Although I disapproved of his deceit towards fellow Wikipedians, I still think his good edits vastly overruled his bad, and that most of his contributions to Wikipedia deserves some recognition. --KZ ^{Talk • Vandal • Contrib} 07:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

And in my point of view the disgrace and bad publicity he brought with his behavior to Wikipedia far outweigh any of his "good edits". Don't you think so?

Not really. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publicity exercise. --Carnildo 09:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• The simple truth of the matter is that any organization the size of Wikipedia, with the attendant fame needs a good publicity/public relations department to handle this type of story as it occurs, not days later when the damage is done. And make no mistake about this - damage to the project has been done - what needs to be assessed here is if the damage is reversible. That is what we should be discussing - not the degree of atonement necessary by Essjay - he is gone, he is history - Wikipedia goes on. I'm sure there are editors with the necessary skills in public relations and human resources to be co-opted into the various recesses of wikipedia to advise Jimbo on these matters - and the most advantageous way to the project of handling them. Rather than appeal for people advertising the necessary "qualifications" I suggest those in authority look at the various articles on these subjects, who has edited them, what is their history on wikipedia, and assess these things before approaching any suitable candidate. Giano 09:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Forget Essjay. There are two (so to speak) sides to cover. One is a tactical reaction, the other a systemic thing. Wales has the tactical publicity side in hand, I'd say (and he has the talent for it). He said he was wrong, he apologized to everyone, he publicly proposed a vetting scheme, he has re-affirmed the importance of anonymity whilst acknowledging that accountability matters, that's all helpful. Now comes the implementation without botching either the cure or what makes Wikipedia tick in the meantime. Comparisons with Sanger (only as an example) are meaningless, the latter's notions, while so very worthy in themselves (and we do wish him all the best) have little to do with what has made Wikipedia so successful. Gwen Gale 10:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I had a fight recently with an editor whom I caught in the act of "revisionist history", and that being he was deliberately distoring the history of a subject because he started out by not liking a certain title; he insisted that everyone who used this title was wrong by about 150 years, and tried to "prove" it by altering the article in question. The unfortunate part is that he is a sitting member of the Wikipedia history board.

We all have to look at each and every article in Wikipedia through a student's eyes. Students are going into Wikipedia on a daily basis, and are using articles for research, for homework. Can the article be trusted to give the student a passing grade on a term paper? With that in mind, can Wikipedia afford to have liars in the midst? I don't think so. Carajou 16:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you we don't want liars in our midst - but a student who depends solely and exclusively on Wikipedia for a "passing grade" - or indeed any other singular text book is a very silly student. I seriously believe 99.99% of Wikipedia editors are sincere in their edits, but students should always remember theories and accepted views change over time - what a student/editor was taught 20 years ago, or even two years ago, maybe not the facts an examiner is looking for today. Wikipedia is not intended to be, nor professes to be, written solely by university lecturers in current employment. Giano 19:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

As an aside this statement of 99.8% of editors being well intentioned is sadly not true. No idea how much editing traffic is vandalism but it is considerably higher than 0.2%, SqueakBox 22:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

• Apologies. 99.9% was meant as an idiom for an overwhelming percentage not as a definitive statistic. Giano 23:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

In light of students being silly for just using Wikipedia, I think we as editors should act as if Wikipedia is the only source they're using, therefore we should do our utmost to make each article the best it can be. And I believe most of us are doing just that! Regards, Carajou 22:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

• I believe that too, and I think the overwhelming majority of editors believe that also and attempt to "make each article the best it can be" - but in a project the size of this there is always going to be a rotten egg, and while every effort must be made to limit the chance of this hapening again - it is highly probable that it will - so a procedure must be in place to deal with it when it happens. Giano 23:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Editors with checkuser

I was always under the impression that users who had been granted the "checkuser" bit were not anonymous to the foundation as this information is so sensitive and could put people in real danger if misused (ie Chinese editors). After the Essjay incident it is obvious that I was mistaken in that impression. Can you confirm that the identity of all those who have this access is known and verified by the foundation? I apologise if I am repeating a question that has been already answered but trawling the archives of this page and others I have not been able to find a definitive statement on this point. Sophia 07:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Sophia's is a practical point we can and should act upon toute suite.Proabivouac 07:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation wishes to maintain the fiction that while it owns the servers, it does not control content on those servers. For legal reasons. For lawsuit reasons. For lack of money to deal with lawsuits reasons. This is not a morality or community issue; it is a legal issue for the foundation to find a solution to. Checkuser ability seems to me to be not something a court would equate to text contributed to a forum but more like a power available to a few insiders working on behalf of the owners of the servers. But I'm not a lawyer so what do I know? WAS 4.250 08:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser is not a power but simply access to information not in the public domain for logged in users. I'm concerned that in all the recriminations the important points wil be lost. Whether to verify editor credentials is something that can be hashed out in the community over time but editor privacy and security need to be assured by a definitive statement about whether the real identities of those with access are known and checked by the foundation. Sophia 17:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Something for the Foundation

It occurs to me that many publicists of notable persons would be willing to give out high-quality CC-BY-SA portraits if they were contacted directly by the Foundation, and informed of how this would improve their client's Wikipedia articles. Perhaps a form letter could be prepared, and Wikipedians could suggest different persons to be contacted about. Thanks for your consideration of this.--Pharos 07:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Example requests for permission#Formal request for high-quality publicity image. Sending one of these as a volunteer editor is about as effective, and much easier on the foundation staff. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that such requests by ordinary editors were typically not met well. If we could compile a list on Wikipedia, and some bot could just send these form requests out from the official e-mail address, I think we might meet with better results without significantly impinging the foundation staff.--Pharos 04:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Portuguese Wikipedia

Jimbo, I don't know if you have a policy on this and I know Portuguese isn't one of your skills. Even so, there has been a perennial discussion on the portuguese wikipedia whether or not to "keep alowing edits from IPs" (unregistered users). I believe this is contrary to the spirit of wikipedia, and in the maybe-not-so-long run hurtful to the project. There are already heavy restrictions on voting rights (45 days from registration and 100 "good" edits) that were approved in 2005. Anyway, if you feel that you should say something there, the village pump equivalent is [here]. One sad Portuguese, Galf 09:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Have you brought up m:Foundation issues? Number two is the most applicable to your debate. Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 21:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

We have a serious problem

Jimbo, we have a problem. Hundreds of users' autograph pages are being deleted. Those users have worked hard on their autograph pages. Please contact me on my user talk page here. Also see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Autograph_pages. This is serious. Please help us. Signed, A•N•N•Afoxlover 20:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

International Symbol of Access and licensing

I apologize for asking this here, but I believe that this is the only place that it can be brought up, since it was you that made the decision to not allow "with permission" licenses. Here's the issue: the International Symbol of Access (that wheelchair logo you see everywhere) is copyrighted. Its conditions of use essentially make it a "with-permission" image; the only place where fair use applies is on the International Symbol of Access article itself. At Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? I discussed this with other users, and made a free replacement - Image:Wheelchair.svg - that the uses of the copyrighted symbol have been replaced with. I do agree, however, with many of the people that commented that this seems pretty silly: the symbol is an international standard that people recognize. Can you please offer your view either here or at Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? Thank you. --NE2 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Signature

Hi Jimbo Wales. Now, there is a little matter which I would like to have it improved. Many users want your signature in there sign-books (even I do), but I am not very sure if you would be willing to sign all those sign-books; so, I come with a proposal. There is this transclusion sub-page called Universal Autographs, where users can post there autographs and share it with all who have got the transclusion code on there sign-book. So, if you were to sign there, then you would, in a way, be signing lots of sign-books in just 1 shot!

“ You keep asking how they [signature books] help build an encyclopedia. But you also link to WP:EA. I think that is your answer, no? Anything that builds a spirit of friendliness and co-operation and helps people get to know each other as human beings seems to me a good thing. Unlike divisive userboxes, the autograph books seem to just be about saying hello and being friendly. ” —Jimbo Wales 13:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

So, what do say?

--TomasBat (@)(Sign) 00:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Gee, why not just copy it to your page...it would mean the same thing. See look, the coding is quite simple: --[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]]

Wouldn't that work? If you want mine, you can copy it from here also...all the bits, only half the calories. —Doug Bell ^talk 11:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that doesn´t sound very traditional. The user should sign his name, not have it copied.

--TomasBat (@)(Sign) 20:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

But you're OK with transcluding? Maybe if I saw the point of the pages I would get it, but I don't. Transcluding doesn't seem any more "traditional" than copying the signature to your page—in either case, the user didn't actually sign your autograph page. —Doug Bell ^talk 21:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, in a way yes, because the user agrees to make his autograph available to all when signing in the transclusion; the user signs lots of them in one shot... --TomasBat (@)(Sign) 02:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, but like I said above, you can copy my signature...so I'm agreeing to make it available...no? BTW, I like your previous signature better—per WP:SIG, "Markup such as <big> tags (which produce big text), or line breaks (<br /> tags) are to be avoided, since they disrupt the way that surrounding text displays." —Doug Bell ^talk 02:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Archive

Please archive this page. Its size is 289 KB! Thank you. --Meno25 01:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Be patient, the bot which usually archives this page (Werdnabot) is currently not working. When it comes back, the page size will get down quickly. --cesarb 01:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Jimbo would like to consider MiszaBot III as an alternative? It is presently functioning and has the added feature that it starts a new archive once the present one reaches a certain size... WjBscribe 14:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

;-) Heh, since Werdna is nowhere to be found, I went bold and have set it up. Миша13 14:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Carla Martin and User:Schmetterling

Just letting you know that I sent you and Brad Patrick an email on this situation. It needs attention ASAP as this user is threatening legal action. And since she is a lawyer, I'm pretty certain it's legitimate. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 06:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a question, but is there actually any evidence inferring that she is Carla Martin? if there is evidence, it seems to be like a Daniel Brandt situation to me. --KZ ^{Talk • Vandal • Contrib} 11:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/

http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Donwarnersaklad (talk • contribs) 15:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

• I was working on an article and it completely disappeared, would you be able to help me find it into Wikipedia so I can save the work I did online, as I didn't save it before its deletion? It was under Karina Leal "DivegirlUSA". Thank you! Divegirlusa 17:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Problem

There is a problem when I upload something. When I upload material, it stay the same. I even upload it again it, it there. P.S. Please talk to me on my user page. Jet123 11:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Due diligence

I have doubts my contribution will be valued in light of the code-worded suggestion at the top of this page encouraging deletion of comments that make "the community" uncomfortable by letting it see itself through the eyes of others. Nonetheless, I submit that due diligence on the part of Wikimedia Foundation leadership could easily have averted this scandal. That Essjay lied about his credentials on Wikipedia might not be something anyone could have prevented under current policy. What shed light on the dishonesty was when Essjay showed up as an employee of the closely related for-profit Wikia, Inc.

The scandal was not that Essjay cooked his credentials, but that the co-founder and a former board member of Wikimedia hired him and kept company with him but either did not know or did not care about his dishonesty. If Essjay was a tenured professor, how could someone with a masters degree believe he had time to take an entry level job at a dot-com start-up? According to the New York Times, Wales thought it was okay for Essjay to operate an online identity that includes false claims of professional credentials. (What an odd morality Wikipedia breeds -- one false identity is okay, but two is evil "sockpuppetry") Then Wales accepted Essjay's apology for the harm that resulted from something Wales thought was okay to do. That might settle it for Wales, but he needs to consider that it might not settle it for other reasonable adults. The irresponsibility those involved ask us to ignore -- in the interest of avoiding personal attacks or for whatever reason --- approaches absurd.

Wales knew or should have known that he hired someone who publicly lied about his credentials. Instead, we the public are asked to believe that it simply doesn't matter, and that our offense at being lied to is somehow an offense against Wikipedia, rather than a reaction to an offense against our integrity as readers by key Wikipedia personnel. Telling us at the outset not to be offended by wrong information does not resolve the offensiveness of wrong information. We are told time and again that Wikipedia is a community that knows each other through their project activities, but we discovered that a co-founder of the project did not even know his own employees and was mislead or participated with the employee in misleading others about the identity and credentials of the employee.

As par usual, if we don't have some standing in the so-called community, our reaction as public readers to this scandal is as likely to be met with claims that we are at fault for calling offensive dishonesty offensive dishonesty as we are to be offered an apology and a detailed forthright disclosure of what he knew and when he knew it from the former chairman of the board who hired this person in a closely related for-profit venture without challenging the false credentials the employee used to boost his reputation. Once again, the public is blamed for caring about integrity, while those who exposed lack of integrity are treated with derision by those who participated in compromising integrity of the project. Of course I'm offended. There are times when this project needs to stop trying to blame a fictional abusive other, and to admit the black eye is a result of it tripping over its own feet because it's not watching where it is going. MetaNoble 00:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, Jimbo has already acknowledged much of this and apologised for his errors of judgment. Isn't it time to move on? No offence intended - you make some good points, but you're a little behind the curve here. Metamagician3000 01:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

What he knew and when he knew it? Please provide a link to such a disclosure. If the discussion has moved to consideration of ways to prevent such problems in the future, that's fine, but that does not foreclose concern about what he knew and when he knew it. Such questions are often best answered in retrospect when the dust is settling and collected information is available.

Fixing the flaw, such as is proposed in the voluntary identity verification suggestion at the top of this page, fixes part of the problem. Fixing the greater part of the problem requires identifying and resolving causes of such flaws. If acknowledgements are tendered as part of a sincere apology, they are not abrupt allocutions but become ongoing efforts to assist in developing an understanding of how such errors in judgement emerge. MetaNoble 02:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You know, this kind of trolling is when editors get blocked for being a single-purpose account. — Moe 02:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't look like trolling to me. They seem to be making some excellent points. I particularly agree that the flaw was not that we believed Essjay, but the response once certain people became aware of his real identity. Mak (talk) 03:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It is when Jimbo has long realized this problem, it's been a week already and this account's first edits are to this talk page. — Moe 04:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

And that kind of abusive blocking is what leads to everyone wasting their time on arbcom cases. [2]. Derex 07:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

National Press

I think you should read this morning's British National newspaper the Mail on Sunday. Which devotes a whole page to the Essjay affair. Four high profile politicians and journalist expand their views on Wikipedia. While the page is not totally negative it is far from good or glowing in its praise. Edwina Curry describes Wikipedia as a load of rubbish. The entire inference is that Wikipedia cannot be trusted and relied upon. Giano 11:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

No wonder Currie thinks that - our article on her is not exactly one of our proudest moments. I just checked it. Metamagician3000 11:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Peter Tatchell, Peter Hitchens were a little more complimentary, but only slightly the sad thing is they only reviewed their own mistake filled bios - Craig Murray was more positive, but the whole page was not good for wikipedia - very damaging. Giano 11:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Not to diminish WP's credibility problem in the least, this does rather support the notion there is also a public image thing to deal with here: Journalists have tended to make their own looming mistakes in reporting this, wontedly towards depicting WP as much more unreliable than it is and criticizing Wales for conflicting statements when in truth they've muddled chronologies and concepts themselves. I do think however that most of these publicity woes can be overcome in time if WP truly implements a simple way to thwart MUD CVs and stresses the need for reliable, verifiable support of article content (and I still think asserting a CV, even a vetted one, in an edit dispute should be banned). Cheers :) Gwen Gale 11:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

FYI - Link to Daily Mail article is here.[3] Katalaveno^T_C 12:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Currie's remark about Wikipedia's tendancy towards gossip in bios is spot on. I could go on about it but won't, other than to let slip that hearsay reports published by down-market tabloids about romantic entanglements are not, shall we say, academically helpful sources (unless the topic's down market tabloids or whatever). Tabloids don't meet WP's verifiabilty standards and in my experience are but tools for trolls. Gwen Gale 12:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[un-indent] While it's not much consolation, I can't help smiling at the story's (typically for the press) inaccurate account of the Essjay row. Metamagician3000 13:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The public image thing is usually best dealt with by proactive engagement and Wales' refussal to answer Larry Sanger's request [4] for an explanation as to why Wales(after learning about the deception) appointed Essjay to Wikipedia's most important ArbComcommittee will likely give the media even more negative fodder. So far the media (even the tabloids) haven't even noticed the "under the rug swept" edits here and I suppose they may never but it's the wrong approach, I think, if one is attempting to clear the slate and move forward. Any explanation would be better than none from a PR standpoint because then the Press could not start developing a "cover up" leg to the story. 70.48.205.221 14:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Fortunately, as far as the press is concerned this is about to become yesterday's news - (unless "some-one" thoughtfully stirs the shit) can we not concentrate on dealing with the issue here, which is making it less likely to happen again, and how it will be addressed if and when it does Giano 14:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, but the focus seems to be entirely upon the credentialism aspect; which is absolutely important; but of equal importance is the judgement abilities of Wikipedia leaders; not of just Wales but also of the General Counsel as to how they handled the deception when it came to their attention. Just think about how this entire matter could have been quietly kept entirely out of the public eye if they had simply recognized the wrongfulness of the deception and worked with EssJay to reverse it, and THEN Wales could have initiated discussion into credentials verification procedures in a PRO-active way rather than reactive. Why should anyone assume that any future occurances on entirely different matters which require good judgment will be handled any better by them? By way of analogy, were Clinton's and Bush's problems solely related to conditons which need addressing (like faulty intelligence or intern policies) or did their judgment not play a major role in the consequences of those conditions? I know I'm rambling but hopefully there is a point here. 70.48.205.221 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

A lot could have been handled differently - but it is too late for that, and for the ensuing recriminations - By the time the shit hit the fan it was too late for reversal and Essjay had to go. I would have sent him packing a lot more forcefully, perhaps the more subtle way Jimbo employed was an attempt to limit publicity - perhaps it even worked. The important thing is to have a policy and procedure in place for dealing with these things in future should they arise. Perhaps a complete ban on the mention of credentials would be a good start, and let people's work speak for itself. Giano 15:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hm, sounds instruction creepy. Does my username get blocked as inappropriate? And can I mention that I'm a qualified junior tennis coach, or do I get blocked for that? And what about my high school French? --Doc^g 16:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha I don't think so Doc :) So far as the "qualified junior tennis coach" thing goes, very borderline as a notable credential I'd say. Only chatting here, anything related to an average HS education I think could be asserted on a user page with no need to verify it (but if a user claimed to have graduated from HS at age 14 or whatever, that would be a notable claim begging for verifiable support IMO). Gwen Gale 16:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Indians abroad want to hear from you

Hi Jimmy, We, Wikipedians from Indian diaspora wants to hear about your Indian experience. We expect to hear your tale as soon as the Essjay problem subsided. Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.13.233.2 (talk) 11:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC).