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Gotta say, I've never seen anyone refer to it as this. I've seen Barbieheimer plenty, however, and that isn't anywhere on the page. That's odd. 186.212.2.148 (talk) 05:12, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Wikipedia has become a joke. People be talking about the two movies rivaling each other, but no one, absolutely no one calling it this portmanteau of a term. This article should be deleted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.170.150 (talk) 02:23, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cheer the hell up, you guys are being elitist. Just because this isn't as grounded as some politician and is more on the lines of the Josh fight or Bowsette, doesn't mean it hasn't shaken people up for the better. The meme or whatever it is even helped to increase the box office for Oppenheimer anyway. Also, those two articles I mentioned are at GA class. I anticipate the day this happens to Barbenheimer as well. :3 Carlinal (talk) 01:09, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add the Animal Crossing New Horizons and Doom Eternal for comparison pls
There was also Animal Crossing and Doom Eternal meme too back in 2020.
Excellent images, if we could get equivalent copies useable on Wikipedia
This LA Times article on Barbenheimer has several excellent illustrations, showing the fundamental incongruity of the two movies. If we could versions free to use in Wikipedia, that would an excellent addition. LouScheffer (talk) 13:00, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The text under question is the caption to the double-image. Fancruft has nothing to do with it, the use of the full name (most of the Barbie characters are listed with their full names at their pages) gives respect to the character. This page has a touch of humor to it, as does this caption, but importantly, at the same time, it is accurate and functional as a link. If J. Robert Oppenheimer is identified by his full name, then so should Barbara Millicent Roberts. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As for the concept of keeping a bit of page-appropriate humor on an encyclopedic page, if there was only some way to alert EEng to this turmoil. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I did restore the full name prior to this, but I'm inclined to agree that it's best to have "Barbie" in the caption. I don't think it's quite a FANCRUFT breach, it's just excess detail and using a less common name where we could just call her Barbie! Also, I'm not quite sure why there's a hidden comment on the page saying "please do not change this" when there's never been consensus determined to include. Should I remove? ser!(chat to me - see my edits)14:25, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for restoring it Ser!. Irony has much to do with it (the entire article is an ironic look at a poetic meme) and provides a bit of respect to the doll - as does the image itself in equating her with Oppenheimer. Should we change "J. Robert Oppenheimer" to "Bob Oppenheimer"? I know, it's not his proper or common name, but Barbie's full name gives credit to both the character and the person she was named after as an honoring. Give this one a break, let's allow some play when there is actually nothing wrong with using it. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're not making jokes here, this is Wikipedia. The purpose of the page is to be encyclopedic, regardless of if you think that the subject is humorous. It is worth reassessing why we're even including a picture in the first place. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)15:04, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong, a touch of humor is allowed on Wikipedia if it works encyclopedically. This does. There is nothing wrong with offering a free use image of the characters which are being portrayed in these films. And to be serious as well, the full name does honor the person Barbie is named after, the daughter of the character's creator. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:28, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. There seems to be a myth, among people who aren't actually intellectual but aspire to be, that intellectual pursuits have to be all frowny and super-serious. Those of us in the know, know that's not true. Humor is absolutely allowed in articles as long as it doesn't interfere with the goal of informing the reader and aiding his or her understanding; in this way it's like any other aspect of presentation style. If you want to claim I'm wrong on this, please go find the policy or guideline that supports you, then get back to me. I've got all the time in the world. EEng17:51, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The difference here is we are writing from a neutral point of view. It's different for "intellectuals" who are writing independent pieces from their own perspective, but Wikipedia is a community effort that documents information alone. This brings any contributions intended for humour into question. GOLDIEM J (talk) 13:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here and elsewhere in this thread you keep saying "NPOV NPOV NPOV" like it's some all-purpose talisman you can invoke to support anything you say. NPOV has nothing to do with this, since there are no "points of view" that need representing. EEng15:17, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article is focused on a phenomenon concerning a pair of films. Not the background of the characters or even the films themselves, just the phenomenon. So how does that daughter have anything to do with it? GOLDIEM J (talk) 13:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is true that this article documents a parody, but we are still on Wikipedia, so we take our coverage seriously! Our job is to describe what the phenomenon is, not write an article that entertains it. "Bobby" is an informal nickname for the subject in question, whereas "Barbie" is an official brand name and character name. GOLDIEM J (talk) 13:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here again you link to WP:NPOV, this time behind the text not write an article the entertains it. WTF? What in NPOV has to do with entertainment? And a phenomenon, not being sentient, can't be entertained. EEng15:17, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the caption. "Bobby" is not used. His nickname was "Oppie", and that was the working title of the book which was then made into the 2023 film. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Barbie is rarely referred to in the public conscience by her full name, so if you ask me it's redundant to use such. I think the caption should read "Barbie and J. Robert Oppenheimer," as this addresses each figure by their most widely-used name. It's important to recognise the difference between the two main characters; Barbie is a fictional character targeted towards children, whereas Oppenheimer was a historical figure and a much more formal figure at that. GOLDIEM J (talk) 13:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, for those of you who for some reason or another need the article's tone to reflect the meme, may I argue that the difference in the way we address the figures (Barbie referred to by a nickname/brand name and Oppenheimer addressed more formally) reflects the difference in tone between the two films just about well enough. GOLDIEM J (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would very much appreciate if you could clarify what you mean by that. Your apparent mockery implies to me that you're not willing to take my opinion seriously enough to engage with it or even argue against it. In that case scenario, why are you even replying to me? As for EEng, I'm using Wikipedia:Neutral point of view to support my view that using language implying engagement with the phenomenon is not encyclopedic. I apologize if that bothers you, but the focus of your response should address the claim I'm making. Instead of attempting to support any view that challenges mine, you only address one aspect of my writing that you don't find normal. GOLDIEM J (talk) 20:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GOLDIEM J, that was a brief way of saying that if you had read this entire section before taking up a crusade against the use of Barbie's full in-universe name you would, possibly, not have bothered. If you did read it and jumped in with both feet anyway that comes close to edging up to the edge of trolling, because the use of the full names including nicknames has been well discussed. See, my brief comment said all of that but in less words. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@InfiniteNexus I think having the full name is fine. The article refers to an in-universe film, and "Barbara Millicent Roberts" is the full, in-universe name of Barbie. I think a good compromise would be to put Barbara "Barbie" Roberts or Barbara Millicent "Barbie" Roberts. Best of both worlds. Strugglehouse (talk) 15:35, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not InfiniteNexus but the compromise sounds good to me, though I would have suggested Barbie (Barbara Millicent Roberts) as the phrasing. Either works though. ser!(chat to me - see my edits)15:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If this good faith compromise occurs, I think the standard form would be Barbara Millicent "Barbie" Roberts without the parenthesis. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:58, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[edit conflict] Correction: that should be Julius Robert "Opje" Oppenheimer, since apparently that was a nickname that was actually used for him. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC) [adding:] I think Oppie and Opje are just different spellings for the same pronunciation. But Oppie is more parallel to Barbie so I think that's a better choice. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, pronounced the same. It's too bad there isn't an Oppie doll (reminiscent of the Librarian Action Figure "with amazing shushing action!" [2]). If we could somehow work Klaus Barbie in as well, then we'd really have something. EEng18:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@David Eppstein Yes, his page says that he was nicknamed "Opje" at the University of Leiden. "Oppie" is a later-used, anglicised version of the name. If we are going with the nickname in quotes for Barbie, I am fine with having "Oppie" appear for consistency. It makes sense to use the anglicised version, as opposed to the original Dutch version. Strugglehouse (talk) 19:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just fine, it's absolutely essential. The cosmic collision of "Oppie" and "Barbie" would be criminal to ignore. EEng19:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You don't seem to understand. It's not a joke. It really was his nickname, used by pretty much everyone who knew him personally [3]. EEng03:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that was indeed his nickname. But it's still a joke, because we wouldn't call him Julius Robert "Oppie" Oppenheimer in normal circumstances. Yes, the injection of subtle humor is fine, but I don't like it when it's this obvious and intrusive. InfiniteNexus (talk) 11:35, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It feels more tonally awkward than it does clever.
There's also the fact to consider that the "Oppie" nickname is just not relevant to the 'barbenheimer' phenomenon/meme. None of the instances or descriptions of the phenomenon make use of the "Oppie" nickname, since most people don't really know about it. So it has no relevant reason to be on the article, I feel. — Jamie Eilat (talk) 12:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe you don't know about it, but anyone familiar with Oppenheimer does. It would be like ignoring that Jacqueline Kennedy as Jackie. EEng13:34, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If there could be found a source describing the 'Barbenheimer' phenomenon which makes use of the "Oppie" nickname, and which describes usage of the nickname as a part of the phenomenon, then it would make sense to retain mention of the nickname in the article. Otherwise, you would just be overstating the relevance of it to this specific subject. — Jamie Eilat (talk) 14:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The use of an identifying name in a caption doesn't have to be related or sourced to the exact topic but to the individual being identified. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@InfiniteNexus I think having the nickname is okay to be consistent with the Barbie name, but I don't really mind. "Oppie" is used in some sources but I agree "Oppie" is not the WP:COMMONNAME, whereas "Barbie" is. I 100% think we should keep the "Barbie" nickname, but if we want to remove "Oppie", that's fine. We shouldn't remove something just because "I don't like it" (see WP:IDONTLIKEIT), but I do agree it's probably not necessary to have "Oppie", other than for consistency. Strugglehouse (talk) 13:23, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know who this "we" is that you say want to remove it. COMMONNAME is about article titles, and IDONTLIKEIT is about deletion. EEng13:34, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a case of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT; this is a case of WP:IJUSTLIKEIT. As there is no reason to use "Oppie" except for the fact that it's funny (the parallelism/consistency argument is a pretext), there needs to be a valid reason for inclusion other than "I like it". InfiniteNexus (talk) 14:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A nickname seems fine in a caption. As EEng mentioned, Oppenheimer's common nickname was "Oppie", and using it results in nothing more than a further descriptor. Wondering why the photos were exchanged though, the double-image with Oppenheimer on the right served better as Oppenhemimer is looking a bit towards Barbie and not turning his back to her (which is both rude in real-life and in double-images). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in this METOO age, in your configuration I fear some readers may imagine that Julius is oggling Trophy Wife Barbie. EEng21:42, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the assessment that it results in "nothing more than a further descriptor". In this case, the image caption is deliberately juxtaposing the "Oppie" nickname with the name "Barbie", which creates an implication that relating the two nicknames is one of the comparisons/juxtapositions between Barbie & Oppenheimer that makes up the content of the 'Barbenheimer' social phenomenon. Except, this does not not appear to actually be the case.
But what about the order of the images? I'm in the "Barbie on the left" column. As for "Oppie", it would make more sense if Barbie was imaged first, as the caption would then show her more familiar nickname followed by Oppenheimer's less familiar but just as real and sourced actual nickname. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:06, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no real preference about the order of the images. (I guess maybe Barbie on the left, if only because the 'Barbenheimer' portmanteau puts "Barbie" before "Oppenheimer".) It's the presence of "Oppie" in the caption that's the main issue, & just switching around the order of the caption does nothing to affect the issue of it being present. — Jamie Eilat (talk) 15:29, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have changed the images back to before the "turning his back on Barbie" move (the order of the title makes sense, thanks). Using Oppie seems fine as a name (it was the man's real nickname, so not really synth). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:45, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that "Oppie" was a real nickname is not the point. The name itself may be real & sourced, but the idea of displaying the nickname "Oppie" as parallel to the nickname "Barbie", as though the parallelism of the two names were a part of the content of the Barbenheimer social phenomenon, is not something that is sourced. What makes something WP:SYNTH is when pieces of reliable information are combined to create a conclusion or implication which is not itself sourced from anywhere. — Jamie Eilat (talk) 16:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen some bizarrely stupid Wikipedia discussions in my day, but in its short life this particular one has rocketed to near the top of the list. There's no "conclusion or implication" here. It's just two cute names being juxtaposed for humorous effect. And before you say anything: yes, articles are allowed to make the reader smile or even laugh.Take a look at the captions on the first two images in Sacred Cod; then check out what happened the last time someone got all huffy about humor in articles. (If you want, take a few additional minutes to see if you can find the two other intentional jokes in that article.) EEng17:32, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear about things, I do not dislike the joke. I actually quite like the humor of paralleling "Barbie" with "Oppie". (If this discussion ends with a consensus of keeping in "Oppie", then I would not necessarily be upset.) But I also agree with the sentiment for Wikipedia that likening or disliking something on its own is not necessary an argument for or against.
And yes, it is absolutely responsible that the article about a topic which is by its nature humorous will likely carry elements of that humorous tone into the article. And indeed, it's sometime good & fine to play on that HUMOR, so long as it doesn't encroach on any issue of sourcing, research, etc.
I see an argument to be made that the humor that may be had in this article ought to come from the actual form & content of the Barbenheimer phenomenon, rather than trying to come up with our own jokes not actually present within the phenomenon. (There are many different jokes & types of humor which form the Barbenheimer phenomenon, such as, for instance, the fan-made poster that is already rightfully & reasonably included within the article. But the "Oppie" "Barbie" joke only exists here, on this article.) — Jamie Eilat (talk) 19:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Who woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? And who is "we" (speaketh for thyself). The names are sourced, Barbie's full name is, as mentioned above, her in-universe name (the film, please note, is in-universe), and Oppenheimer's nickname is "Oppie" which, as mentioned just above, was the working title of the book that the film is based on (Oppie became American Prometheus, as did Oppie). Nothing broken here. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To better visualize this article, I found a well-made non-free poster created by "ThatTallGinger" on Twitter. The tweet in question received a response from the Barbie movie's official Twitter Page on July 10, 2023.
There was a non-free poster added yesterday as a very short infobox which seemed to be open to the claim of advertising. Is this the same poster? Since this page isn't about a film or a stand-alone fully realized topic, but about a concept, I don't know if non-free images are allowed (hence the double image which opens the page, both in public domain). Does the poster creator wish to offer the poster as a public domain image? Randy Kryn (talk) 15:25, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Randy Kryn: It was the same poster. It was added without discussion or context. [4] And I doubt it will ever be available in the Public Domain since it uses copyrighted images AND since the poster in question was sold as a poster by the creator. Yoshiman6464♫🥚18:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When a copyrighted image is used a bot usually will come along and sweep it away. If eventually it is used, it should not be as the first image but lower on the page (this page doesn't need an infobox, which is where the image was first placed, and is doing fine without a non-free image). Randy Kryn (talk) 11:27, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do support the use of it, especially in the "Barbie vs. Oppenheimer" section. Something along the lines of, "fanmade posters like this one have become viral on Twitter." Yoshiman6464♫🥚12:52, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that the photo makes Barbie look like a member of the Manson Family on benzedrine? Yes. Agree that this somehow manifests misogyny? No. Also, please get your keyboard's shift key fixed. busted. EEng20:28, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here is everything under Category:Barbie dolls in Wikimedia Commons, if anyone would want to look through it, but Strugglehouse is right that their aren't many great other options. I did quickly see an alt Malibu Barbie photo, if anyone might prefer that one for some reason.
@Jamie Eilat Thank you. As can be seen, the image on the page currently and the image in this comment are the only images in the "Barbie dolls" category that are of just the doll and nothing else. The one is this comment is worse as it has a border around it. If another image can be found, it can be uploaded, but I don't see anything wrong with the one being currently used. Strugglehouse (talk) 20:40, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Gosh, I was just going to suggest Trophy Wife Barbie as well! I guess great minds really do think alike. EEng21:38, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have moved it back. Take a second and look at the facial features of the "original" photo (changed out for porn star Barbie?) and Oppie. See the resemblance? If not, look again. But not too closely, the almost unconsciously seen similarity needs a bit of distance to subtly communicate. Chosen as well for the backgrounds. The "lightness" and life of the flower wallpaper vs. the overall humanity-dulling gray of the Oppenheimer image. None of the other images offer such a contrast. If the image is too distant or hippiess, maybe someone can do a crop just under her hair and see how that looks. A crop of wine-making Barbie at her waist looks like it would work too, at least the background of that one has some color with a hint of atomic-bomb blush and/or barely fairy wings thrown in. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:32, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to mention before (but apparently edit-conflicted) that Leatherface Barbie does look like she might have been in a radiation accident, so there's that subtle tie-in to Oppie as well. EEng00:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
lol (which I only write if I've actually laughed/laughing out loud). Would like to see a crop at the waist of pink fairy wing dagger-in-belt Barbie to see if that would work, at least it would bring the two head-shots more towards equal size. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have tested both and then did a quick back-and-forth to view the result and, to me, the present cropped version is much better. When compared like this Oppenheimer fades way back into the distance, seems more aloof, and doesn't match Barbie's expression of intensity and fervor. When matched against Barbie, Oppenheimer has to look like he means it. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Randy Kryn, that was actually one of the reasons why i had suggested using the uncropped photo of oppie. considering that oppenheimer is generally regarded as the more intense of the two films, i thought it was interesting that, if both subjects were framed similarly here, it is roberts who is the more intense one. it may also help to bump the total width of the multiple image template up to 350 pixels, so that oppie doesn't appear too distant. dying (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jamie Eilat, I went to do a test preview look at your choice, then lol. So I left it, checked again, lol again. 2 lol in a row earned my !vote and I really couldn't take it down so left it again. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They're both "looking" at a spot about four feet directly in front of them (at scale). Could be anything on God's green Earth. I'm sure that once the films are seen there are going to be hundreds of connections found between the two characters and between the films, not to mention their best friends, Midge and Leslie, to fill a good-sized section on this page. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:12, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redux
Since the newer Barbie doll images are up for deletion, I've restored the original Barbie in the suede vest as the intent is to have an image of Barbie, replacing the image of Margot Robbie added by @RodRabelo7:. Given that there was objection to the suede vest Barbie, I think this is due a revisit already. I did upload a new version of File:Vintage Malibu Barbie.jpg without the digital border under the Commons policy that minor cropping is allowed. (It should be showing above eventually, but the cache may take a hot second? idk how that works.) We could also consider an image of Robbie, as the actress of the Barbie film, as RodRabelo7 has suggested by adding that image. I generally don't have a hard preference, especially since I don't actually think the suede vest Barbie is bad at all. I do think there are no appropriate images of Robbie that fit this article properly. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol19:44, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
TenTonParasol and RodRabelo7, if we're going to use a photo of robbie instead of roberts, we might as well use one of murphy instead of oppie. i went through some of the photos available on commons and put together three possible pairings of the two. by blind luck, each pairing consists of photos that are already similarly framed. do any of these possibilities work for either of you? dying (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And I've brought back the long-time double image. Maybe an RfC would clear this up, if someone can articulate why. See my comment below. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Using the Barbie doll images violates c:COM:TOYS. They're copyrighted three-dimensional figures. Of the actor photos, I prefer the two in the middle (where she's laughing and he's talking). ThreeOfCups (talk) 03:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, vest Barbie, the original for this page, is a public domain free use image. In fact, can someone do a couple of crops on it to make the head and torso larger to compare with Oppenheimer's photo, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The vested image has been cleared at Commons for use, and, in fact, can someone who knows how post it on Wikipedia as well so Commons has no say about it? Thanks again. By the way, none of the images of the actors seems very good to me, and the actors, as I say, should have the images on the film pages and not on this page, which is about the contrast and melding of the two filme and the two, ah, individuals, featured in the films. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:08, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Using images of the actors is for the film articles, not the internet meme. If the concern is about the potentially deleted image, if it gets deleted then the original vest Barbie image seems the way to go, several of us like it. An RfC may be needed to resolve some concerns, but I really can't tell what the concern actually is. This seems like an "I don't like it" opposition but it's not being made clear what's not to like. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've also landed against the actors. And, as said above, I'm fine with the suede vest Barbie, and I'm not super sure what the issue is. But, I remind that I have cropped the border out of the one with the green skirt to make it a viable option since the border was, as I understand it, previously considered disqualifying. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol05:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that the use of a copyrighted work in a photo (for non-private use and without permission) may be considered an unauthorized use of the work in some jurisdictions. In the US, toys are considered copyrighted works unless they're public domain. ThreeOfCups (talk) 05:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that the two images of the Malibu Barbies from 1971 are public domain due to a failure to copyright. I like one with the green skirt better than the one with the suede vest. Although honestly, I think the movie posters would look better in the lead. Those Malibu Barbies look like they're on some sort of controlled substance. ThreeOfCups (talk) 06:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ThreeOfCups, i might be missing something obvious here, but how do we know that "Malibu Barbies from 1971 are public domain due to a failure to copyright"? as an aside, for future reference, one way to easily link to the page you mentioned above is "[[:c:COM:TOYS]]". further information can be found here.dying (talk) 18:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I added the link above. If you click on the Malibu Barbie images and scroll down to the Object section, it explains why the photos are public domain in the US. ThreeOfCups (talk) 22:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Randy Kryn, i could easily be wrong, but from my reading of the comments, i don't think anyone expressed an "'I don't like it' opposition". for my part, i would prefer using a pairing of the subjects of the two films, but had suggesting using a pairing of the leads of the films as an alternative if using a photo of roberts would violate u.s. copyright law. regardless, a pairing of the leads could also be inserted under the subsection titled "Film industry reaction", as reactions from both leads are mentioned there. dying (talk) 18:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since it looks like the two Malibu Barbie images (vest and dagger-in-belt) will be the only choices for page presentation after the Ungreat Commons Purge of 2023, maybe someone would like to try a cropping or three from the waist up of the two images to get a better perspective for which one to use. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reception
Maybe a "Reception" section? In a recent review of Oppenheimer, film critic Grace Randolph called Barbenheimer a bad idea. (Fragment starts roughly 4 minutes in.) According to her, seeing them on separate days allows you to think about, and savor, both. Particularly, she says that watching Oppenheimer after Barbie makes for a total killjoy situation. --2001:1C06:19CA:D600:844A:B4C4:D98D:1F0A (talk) 19:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In an early example of juxtaposing curvaceous figures with nuclear fireballs, in 1982 the Harvard Lampoon published "Nuclear Arms and Terrific Legs: The Atomic Threat to America's Cover Girls" [5]. EEng07:32, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Heads up: Kotaku (the video game site) just did (approximately 6 hours before I posted this) an article about silliness in the Barbenheimer talk page and AFD discussion. Be aware that the writer may come back and update the article with new posts, so don't say anything that you'd regret if a screenshot of it went semi-viral. QuietCicada (talk) 01:05, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Gråbergs's hilarious comment reads like an enigmatic puzzle. I can't help but laugh at their cryptic warning: "As long as nobody tries to add something about this WP-article to this WP-article, I'm good." It's like deciphering a code from a eccentric genius or unlocking the secrets of a whimsical internet universe.
I'm left imagining a tinfoil-hat-wearing, tea-sipping mastermind, concocting a Wikipedia conspiracy or crafting the ultimate prank. Whatever the reason, I'm embracing the amusement and vowing not to mix these elusive WP-articles.
But could we add that Wikipedians discussed not adding mention of Kotaku noting that Wikipedians had had extensive discussions about Wikipedia's Barbenheimer article to the Barbenheimer article to the Barbenheimer article? EEng21:12, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you've unleashed a delightful riddle upon us! However, I must admit, deciphering this enigmatic comment is akin to chasing a mischievous kitten through a maze of words!
Are we trying to create a never-ending loop of Barbenheimer discussions within the Barbenheimer article itself? Perhaps, it's an attempt to turn the article into a mystical portal to another dimension of Wikipedian debates!
While I appreciate a good puzzle, let us remember that clarity and coherence are like the guiding stars of Wikipedia. So, how about we gather our wits, brush off the cosmic dust from this conundrum, and focus on illuminating the Barbenheimer article with valuable content, minus the endless loop-de-loops? Alexandria Bucephalous (talk) 04:57, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my bad, what I said was a joke. I don't mind Kotaku being up to standards on this site, it's just that it's funny that they would read this talk page and how much. And that perhaps no true gamer would frequently read about them. ;) Carlinal (talk) 17:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but Barbie is not a "lighthearted fantasy comedy". I watched it yesterday and it is about "thoughts of death", conflicts beween different sexes, pain, anger, selfdought. So how can it be lighthearted? No way! Watch it again
Well, I understand that you had a different experience watching the Barbie movie, but I still firmly believe it falls under the category of a lighthearted fantasy comedy. The plot summary sets the stage for a whimsical and colorful world in Barbie Land, where Barbie and Ken seem to be having a delightful time.
While it's true that the characters may encounter conflicts and challenges when they enter the real world, it doesn't necessarily negate the overall lightheartedness of the film. Many comedies incorporate moments of conflict and self-doubt to create a relatable and engaging storyline.
In Barbie movies, the conflicts and obstacles are often presented in a way that is suitable for a family-friendly audience. The film tends to maintain a positive and uplifting tone, using humor and imaginative elements to navigate through serious topics while keeping the essence of a fantasy world intact.
Different viewers may interpret the movie's themes and messages in various ways, but the intention behind Barbie movies typically revolves around entertainment, inspiring creativity, and offering a fantastical escape for audiences of all ages. It's all about finding that balance between thought-provoking moments and the playful, joyous atmosphere that characterizes a lighthearted fantasy comedy.
I encourage you to re-watch the movie with the perspective of its underlying themes complementing the overall lightheartedness. You might find that the movie has more layers to enjoy, making it a delightful and engaging experience ! Alexandria Bucephalous (talk) 14:55, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neither of you should be importing your own views of the film in the editing of this article. We are supposed to strictly report how the film is described by reliable sources. Anything else is original research. ––FormalDude(talk)15:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kafkaesque tragicomedy
Kafkaesque Literature
Franz Kafka (1883-1924) was a Czech-born German-language writer whose surreal fiction vividly expressed the anxiety, alienation, and powerlessness of the individual in the 20th century. Kafka's work is characterized by nightmarish settings in which characters are crushed by nonsensical, blind authority. Thus, the word Kafkaesque is often applied to bizarre and impersonal administrative situations where the individual feels powerless to understand or control what is happening. Bernadette1303 (talk) 12:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Should we find sources and a way to incorporate the cosplay for this movie? I have never seen so much pink in my life at the movie theater. I also literally saw people dressed in Oppenheimer cosplay then take off there suits outside the theater to reveal bright barbie cosplay underneath. Seems like an important aspect of the Barbenhemer experience. Bdonan (talk) 21:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Upon release, Barbie received generally positive reviews while Oppenheimer received critical acclaim"
This sentence is wonky. The "while" suggests the two receptions are pitted against each other, but we're just regurgitating Metacritic's word salad here. What's even the difference between "generally positive reviews" and "critical acclaim". Is the reader meant to go "ah! the Barbie was given positive feedback from audiences but Oppenheim found mostly success among critics" or what? Tha answer obviously is that we're just copying verbatim Metacritic's stupid boilerplate texts; two of only a handful of boiled-down movie reception summaries.
But we don't indicate that in any way. We need to make it clear to the reader that "generally positive reviews" and "critical acclaim" isn't our editorial voice. These are two static phrases lifted directly from another site with zero explanation of what they really mean, and then they're put against another with a "while" that falsely suggests they are somehow opposing each other.
Wikipedia is reaching a new low if we surrender our movie reporting to just parroting Metacritic without any context whatsoever. CapnZapp (talk) 09:03, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The language of the article has now been changed to say that both films received critical acclaim. I'm fine with that, but then, actual sources need to be cited which say that. The Metacritic site can't be the source, because that's not what Metacritic says. ThreeOfCups (talk)
@CapnZapp: I think it would be perfectly reasonable to just say in the article that both films have been "critically acclaimed". Sure, Barbie's score on Metacritic is one point off from what that website considers "universal acclaim", but "universal acclaim" isn't the same thing as "critical acclaim" - and regardless, I don't see why we should base our description of the film's reception directly on Metacritic. Considering the Rotten Tomatoes score and what various news articles have been saying - such as this Hollywood Reporter article, which states, "Both Barbie and Oppenheimer are getting overwhelmingly positive reviews" - it would certainly be accurate to call both films "critically acclaimed". There's one editor in particular who has been removing any mention of Barbie receiving "critical acclaim" over and over from both this article and the Barbie article. That editor is insisting that we can't describe Barbie as "acclaimed" unless we have a source using exactly that word... but I don't think it should be considered original research to describe 90% on Rotten Tomatoes and "overwhelmingly positive reviews" as "critical acclaim". Oppenheimer has received somewhat better reviews than Barbie, but both films have been extremely well-reviewed, and like you said, it doesn't make sense to write about the reception of each film as though they're "pitted against each other". --Jpcase (talk) 20:48, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The user that you are replying to is trying really hard to push the narrative that Barbie has received critical acclaim, when it hasn't.
Metacritic is the primary source. Keep it simple. Other sources are unnecessary, especially when they don't even mention critical acclaim, and have only been cited to pad the source count in order to bolster a certain narrative.
I restored the previously WP:Censored content per WP:RS. We are NOT supposed to give WP:Undue weight to aggregators like Metacritic as they are not considered reliable sources according to MOS:FILMLEAD. It quite clearly tells us to summarize the press consensus in one or two recent sources, and Ive just added several.
Stop allowing this one disruptive editor from holding the page hostage! He’s WP:NOTHERE to be reasonable.
…to @Z8n I say to you, listen to your own (dishonest) advice and Keep. It. Simple. Again, the sources here trump the flimsy Metacritic loophole you think you are (not so) cleverly exploiting according to the rules which say the sources simply have more weight.
This is a no-brainer, folks. Barbie is a cultural phenomena reflected in the press as such with widespread critical acclaim and an earth shattering box office tally.
I'm not actually seeing anything in MOS:FILMLEAD saying that review aggregators "are not considered reliable sources"...although maybe I'm overlooking something? As I've noted, I do agree that any summary of the film's reception should not be based solely on Metacritic and that there are available sources to support describing the film's reception as "critically acclaimed". I'd prefer not to see sources included in the lead though, since lead sections typically aren't supposed to include lots of sources, and sources really shouldn't be needed in a lead for something as simple as a film's reception. As long as sources are given for the reception in the body of the article, then they shouldn't be needed in the lead. --Jpcase (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Can we try to turn down the temperature on this conversation? Things have been pretty heated both here and at Talk:Barbie (film). I'm sorry if I've contributed to that in any way. Please, let's avoid casting aspersions on the motives of other editors, which is something I've seen both sides of this disagreement doing. Try to keep WP:AGF in mind. --Jpcase (talk) 00:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Barbenheimer is not a film. It's a cultural phenomenon. MOS:FILMLEAD does not apply. There are articles about the films, and they have critical response sections. It's not necessary in this article to include information about the critical response. ThreeOfCups (talk) 01:01, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, see my section above this one, which I have now actioned since no one else did. This is not a fork of either the Oppenheimer or the Barbie film articles. Although there's a lot of opining going on as to which is the better film and whether Barbie will maintain its box-office dominance and other matters fascinating to film industry insiders, film reviewers, and newspaper editors trying to sell newspapers, this article should be mainly focused on reviews of and responses to the double feature. I've found 3 plus a damp squib in the New York Times that I couldn't see any way to use. (One we were citing in the wrong place, among the pre-release opinions.) There are probably others; I didn't really pummel Google on this, since I have to go dump water on the garden now. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sean Longmore/Layered Butter poster
According to this tweet by Sean Longmore, he was commissioned by Layered Butter to create this poster. Layered Butter is using the image on merchandise for sale on numerous websites [6], [7], [8]. Use of this image is not only a copyright violation, it's also an advertisement for Layered Butter products.
According to the Cornell Law School Website: "In the United States, parody is protected by the First Amendment as a form of expression. However, since parodies rely heavily on the original work, parodists rely on the fair use exception to combat claims of copyright infringement."[9]
The Sean Longmore/Layered Butter poster is itself a copyrighted work. It relies on the fair use protection to combat claims of copyright infringement by the original copyright holders, such as Mattel. In other words, if Mattel tried to sue Layered Butter for damages, Mattel would probably lose. Fair use doesn't mean that anyone in the world can use a work of parody without compensating the creator. ThreeOfCups (talk) 19:18, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Blockbuster"
The lead sentence says: "an Internet phenomenon that began circulating on social media before the simultaneous theatrical release of two blockbuster films".
This is nonsensical: a movie can't be described as a blockbuster until after it's released and it turns out that a lot of people attend it. It should say something like "two highly anticipated films". --142.112.221.64 (talk) 04:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"The term has also come to refer to any large-budget production intended for "blockbuster" status, aimed at mass markets with associated merchandising, sometimes on a scale that meant the financial fortunes of a film studio or a distributor could depend on it." It's right there in the article. 24.29.199.34 (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You did not show, but I'm closer, and would have won anyway drawing the Ace of Pentacles, the symbol of both prosperity for the films and a new beginning which is what the union/mystic marriage of Barbie and Oppie can symbolize (Oppenheimer and his influence on the world trumped and tempered down by Roberts' feminine energy and goodwill). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which images, specifically? And how do you propose to settle it? On one hand, the use of the Layered Butter poster is a clear copyright violation. On the other, it provides them with free advertising, so it probably doesn’t do them any harm. In that case, the only thing really at risk is Wikipedia’s integrity. ThreeOfCups (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I genuinely don't care how many Wikipedia rules this image violates. I care that Layered Butter isn't being harmed by it. So, go ahead, use the image, make money for Layered Butter. They deserve it. It's an awesome image. ThreeOfCups (talk) 17:30, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the mere existence of a commercial image violated WP:PROMOTIONAL and was automatically revenue and advertising for the copyright holder, then all images of purchasable items or otherwise connected to commercial activity would automatically be considered making money for someone and we wouldn't have any fair use images at all. So, I don't understand the logical throughline on that.
The image is one of the most notable examples of a mash-up poster relating to the phenomenon and numerous references mention the concept of mash-ups (though the article itself could stand to discuss this a little more, especially since so many references cover it), so it's an appropriate image to include somewhere in the article regardless of it being for sale. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol18:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay! Here's what I did to satisfy my concerns about the poster use. I moved some of the content from the photo caption into the lead, and some into the Counterprogramming section. Hopefully my changes now position the poster as illustrating internet user reaction, rather than the Barbenheimer phenomenon itself. ThreeOfCups (talk) 21:11, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But keep it as the second image, not the first. The for-sale poster is fine for the page but not as a first image promotion. Coming second it at least shows that Wikipedia has a sense of proportion when promoting images because, if used first, we might as well work for the copyright owners. Please do not move the image back to first slot and, if moved, please revert, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:58, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tipping Point in viewers taste ?
Several Sources interpret this succes as a tipping point for Hollywood, ending the era of sequels, superheroes and blatant opinions.
Common interpretation is, that people want original content instead of sequels (not barbie may be a franchise, but not a _fiction_ franchise)
The suboptimal performance of Mission Impossible 7 and Indiana Jones 5 confirms this
So far no superhero has been affected, but the genre relies heavily on franchises
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