Talk:No Gun Ri massacre

Picasso

The Massacre in Korea wiki page about a painting by Picasso has a link to the page "No Gun Ri massacre". Conversely, I would mention this artwork by Picasso under the "No Gun Ri in culture" section. But English is not my mother language and somebody else could formulate it better than I. In the meanwhile, I put it under "See also" --Dominique Meeùs (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Timeline Comment

The chronology of events is unclear, especially in the lead. I would appreciate if someone who has more understanding of the subject could clean it up. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:18, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, Compassionate727, the lead confuses by saying the massacre account was found to be correct, and then saying there was an official investigation (which found it to be correct). That first sentence is superfluous, including the mention of undefined "disputed details," secondary matters that emerge in specific form later in the body. I will clarify the lead. Meantime, if you can point to other passages that you believe confuse the timeline, please advise. Thank you. Charles J. Hanley (talk) 18:55, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Undoing edits

I am undoing the edits done on 3 November by 139.153.56.179 as gratuitous and unexplained, and for introducing errors. Attributing the casualties in the infobox to “reports” is incorrect, since these were official findings of two governments (“South Korea’’ and “the U.S.”). Also, it’s important to identify the victims as South Korean, making clear these were “friendlies,” citizens of an allied country. Thanks. Charles J. Hanley (talk) 20:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

New "Testimonials" section

Your interest in this subject is welcome, TheUntamedBig, but if you reread the article you’ll see that all of the points covered in your edit were already addressed higher up in the article. Examples:

• The point that “G.I.s had spoken out” in support is made in the Intro, in the “Events of July 25” section and in the “Associated Press story” section.
• Soldier “testimonials” are included in the “Events of July 25” section, the “Associated Press story” section and in the “South Korean report” section. Tinkler’s full “annihilated” quote is in that SK report section.
• Korean survivor statements are cited extensively in the “Events of July 25” section.
• The issue of “gunfire out” from the tunnels is dealt with in the "U.S. report" and “South Korean report” sections, the latter noting that only three of 52 veterans interviewed claimed such, “and then inconsistently.”
• Finally, Edward L. Daily, whom you quote in your edit, was later discredited as an eyewitness. His information was second-hand. (A reread will inform you of that, in the “AP story” section.)

Bottom line: The new section is redundant and introduces some serious disjointedness to a certified “Good Article” that has been well organized. I’ll undo the edit unless you’d like to discuss further. Many thanks. Charles J. Hanley (talk) 21:27, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

With only one notable Exception; "Edward L. Daily". Is there any mentions to all other specific quotes i added? Like one veteran recalling his captain saying "hell with these people, we should get rid of them all". Or the specific quote from a survivor according to a reliable source, saying "the soldiers played with us like boys playing with flies". Those historically important quotes are missing. Given this is an encyclopedia, I feel they should be added in as many verified quotes are currently not there at all but important. The reason for the chapter is so people can read the full unadulterated quotes from verified survivors and veterans as it is right to know for historic purposes, the exact words they used in their testimonials.

TheUntamedBig (talk) 23:41, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

There are dozens and dozens of published quotes out there from survivors and ex-soldiers describing the NGR event. The article, very long as it is, distills them into a number of essential quotes. As for the “get rid of them” quote, please see the second paragraph of the “Events of July 25” section, in which soldiers recall orders. Footnote 18 there then extensively quotes a soldier to that effect. To accommodate, however, I will incorporate the woman’s “like flies” quote in the “Events” section when I undo (later today). Thanks. Charles J. Hanley (talk) 12:51, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

The reworking of the lead

Regarding the reworking of the lead paragraph of this certified Good Article by Toobigtokale:

The first sentence has been unusually long for some time. It flowed directly and smoothly enough, but it was unnecessarily long because of non-essential elements, namely, the type of weapons fire, the specific U.S. Army unit, the mention of the bridge, the outdated reference to “an undetermined number” of victims (when the very next sentences provide specific numbers).

The latest reworking, on the other hand, relegates the most essential elements – who the victims and perpetrators were – to secondary sentences in the lead, and neglects to say where this village is (i.e., in South Korea).

I’ll rewrite to trim the original first sentence but prioritize essential elements, with the non-essentials covered later in the intro or deeper in the body of the article. Charles J. Hanley (talk) 18:58, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good toobigtokale (talk) 19:00, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Charles J. Hanley (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

The rewrite of 'Law of War and No Gun Ri'

I’m afraid, XXzoonamiXX, that you deleted highly relevant, highly important material (Clinton’s statement, the survivors’ lawyers’ position, the South Korean government’s position, the West Point expert’s reference to targeting noncombatants as a violation of customary international law, the Army secretary’s statement on prosecutions, etc.), and substituted a much too long treatise-like digression on treaties. This article is already overly long.

I suggest you come to Talk and propose a succinct (50 words or so) paragraph that distills the technical point you’re making. Seems to me it should say that although experts say the deliberate killing of any noncombatants is a violation of customary international law, the relevant (Hague) treaty in 1950 seems not to relate to the killing of an allied nation’s civilians, but in any event the U.S. Army’s extant Articles of War would have deemed the No Gun Ri massacre a war crime (murder).

That succinct paragraph could then be inserted into the context of what has long been there under “Law of War and No Gun Ri”.

Or, if you prefer, I’ll write that summary paragraph. Thanks. Charles J. Hanley (talk) 17:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)