Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories

See also: WT:CAT and WT:CFD

Heads of government versus prime ministers

I notice we do not only have Category:Heads of government but also Category:Prime ministers. The biggest difference that I noticed is that the tree of Category:Heads of government also contains presidents subcats. If that is the main difference indeed I wonder if the heads of government tree is redundant and if we can just keep the presidents and prime ministers tree. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nederlandse Leeuw: what do you think? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:26, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

It really seems like the head of government categories seem to exist so as to also contain prime ministers, as compared to head of state categories.

I wonder how many of the heads of government subcats could probably be renamed (or possibly split) to fit in one of the other trees. - jc37 06:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

With some exceptions, we may just purge presidents subcategories from the tree and rename the remainder from heads of government to prime ministers. For example Category:Assassinated heads of government and Category:15th-century heads of government already exclude heads of state. The challenge is in the many top level categories in the tree, but after we tackle the lower layers that should become more easy too. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:46, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I was just being less specific about it : )

Depending on the category it could probably be a rename/merge in one direction or other. - jc37 07:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle @Jc37 I also favour just calling heads of government who weren't also simultaneously heads of state (like the POTUS or some other president) "prime ministers". Some countries like Germany and Austria prefer calling them "chancellor" etc. but "prime minister" or "premier (ministre)" (or "first minister" in Scotland and Canada, or "chief minister" in Sierra Leone) are by far the most common titles for this office. List of spouses of heads of government provides a handy overview.

Marcocapelle and I already discussed this in May 2023 on my talk page at User talk:Nederlandse Leeuw/Archive 2#Spouses of national leaders, leading to the Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 13#Category:Lists of spouses of national leaders CfS on 13 May 2023; Marco already created Category:Spouses of prime ministers on 12 May 2023‎, and we split off Category:Lists of spouses of prime ministers on 26 June 2023.

Although in some countries the head of state (president or monarch) is largely a ceremonial position and less powerful than the prime minister (e.g. the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria etc.), while in other countries the prime minister is clearly subordinate to the head of state (president or monarch; e.g. France, Thailand, PR of China etc.), we may assume that in countries where the president is both head of state and head of govt, the head of state function is the more important one. (E.g. being commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces arguably falls under the head-of-state Powers of the president of the United States; this is not something that they need to agree on with other ministers in their government, let alone Congress, although he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments.)

I think it was established in an earlier CFD, if I am not mistaken actually the 2010 CFD nominated by BHG, that we shouldn't categorise presidents as "heads of government" if they are also already heads of state, the presumption being that the latter is the more important function. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmmmm I can't find it at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 March 27, so maybe that decision was made somewhere else.

Anyway, as I said on my talk page: I was thinking I could also BOLDly create Category:Lists of spouses of prime ministers (as a child of Category:Spouses of prime ministers) already? Or should I wait with that? Some people may object that not all heads of government are called "prime minister", even though like 95% are. The advantage of calling every head of govt who isn't simultaneously head of state a "prime minister" is that there can be no confusion whether it also includes presidents who are also head of govt. It won't. That clarity is what we should strive for.

Marco and I indirectly agreed on that later: At this point I'm in doubt whether we need Category:Spouses of heads of government by country, because Category:Spouses of prime ministers/Category:Spouses of prime ministers by country seem to already cover this purpose, and not in need of a "heads of government" parent. Its parent Category:Spouses of heads of government still hasn't been created, even though Category:Spouses of heads of state has following yesterday's split. @Marcocapelle are you still planning to do that? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:44, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

No, I agree that Category:Spouses of prime ministers suffices. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:49, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:29, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I think maybe there is far more than prime ministers in history. No need to circumscribe the category only to modern countries or the history of industrialized nations. Who were the heads of government of the Aztec Empire for example? What about polities in ancient Muslim societies? The Roman and Greek republics? The Persian Empire? Ancient African nations? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• @Thinker78: except for Athens and Rome the answer is simple, the monarch was the government. Neither in Athens nor in Rome there was an office "head of government". Marcocapelle (talk) 16:25, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

  There is no office "head of government" in the USA either. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. Head of Government is a good general name for heads of government, particularly those who aren't head of state. Depending on the system, a president could be a head of state or a head of government and head of state. I think it is a mistake to rename to "prime minister" heads of government with other titles. Newystats (talk) 05:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I just realized this is about heads of government and not assassinated heads of government. If you see the actual category it is populated with many pages besides prime ministers and presidents. Therefore, I don't agree with the proposal. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 19:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Black markets by country

 Courtesy link: Talk:Black market in wartime France § Other countries

Although we have Category:Black markets, "Surely there were black markets in other countries?" (quoted from the link). Shouldn't we have, Category:Black markets by country under that? Please advise. Mathglot (talk) 23:06, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:Overcategorization/Small with no potential for growth § Should SmallCat continue to be a guideline

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Overcategorization/Small with no potential for growth § Should SmallCat continue to be a guideline. A smart kitten (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Question

What is the protocol for categories that only have one page in them? While doing some work for WP:Louisiana I noticed someone create a new category for something that only has one page that could go inside. Louisiana Tech Lady Techsters soccer features the information for former coaches which in turn is in the catevory created today that I am concerned about is "Louisiana Tech Lady Techsters soccer coaches".

Ktkvtsh (talk) 23:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

"Template:R from deadname" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Template:R from deadname has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 30 § Template:R from deadname until a consensus is reached.

I’m notifying WP:CATP as one of the options is to turn Template:R from deadname into its own rcat, which would then result in the creation of Category:Redirects from deadnames or similar. Best, A smart kitten (talk) 17:45, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

"We Didn't Start the Fire" Category

I was thinking about creating a category for events mentioned in the song "We Didn't Start the Fire," but I can definitely see how that could be considered trivial. Certainly the election of Harry Truman is not most notable for its inclusion in a Billy Joel song, but there are song events that are arguably best remembered for their inclusion in the song (Syringe Tide comes to mind). I feel that this could be a useful category, but would like others' input. Remainsuncertain (talk) 21:30, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Remainsuncertain Ask Koavf. I have seen them have some interest in such niche cats. Regards, --Thinker78 (talk) 03:08, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Redundant cat

This categories seem to mirror each other. Category:Crime by century and Category:Crimes by century. Thoughts? Regards,--Thinker78 (talk) 03:11, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The Crimes ones should be about particular events which were of a criminal nature, such as the Hatton Garden job. The Crime ones should be about more general topics, such as changes to the law and the events that precipitated the change. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it is rather confusing such arrangement. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 19:21, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia categories named after musical groups

Enforcement of WP:OCEPON seems to be particularly focused on eponymous categories for bands (at least when compared to other topics like political parties). I created Category:Greta Van Fleet earlier this year and it was deleted on this basis so I was wondering how big does a category have to be for it to be considered worthy? Charles Essie (talk) 20:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Any way to know number of entries of deleted categories

I was wondering if there is a way to know how many entries a deleted category had at any given time. Specifically in this case, Category:Assassinated American former and incumbent party officials. Regards, --Thinker78 (talk) 21:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

First, you would need to obtain a database dump from the time that is of interest. This is more a WP:VPT thing, not a WikiProject matter. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:09, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Petscan question

I ran a Petscan query including Category:Homicide and Category:Politicians but for some reason, Zeus showed up, no idea why. Anyone knows why and how to find out? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 01:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

a) Homicide > Infanticide > Child sacrifice > Cronus > Children of Cronus

b) Politicians > Heads of state > Monarchs > Monarchs in Greek mythology > Kings in Greek mythology

Both categories have actually more paths to Zeus than those. I had the same question not long ago (but can't remember where), and I was given the code for a query at quarry:, and I used that to retrieve the above results. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Incredibly useful answer, I appreciate it! Best regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:56, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Categorization

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Categorization#Caste-related category questions, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. Beccaynr (talk) 14:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Archive categorization

Hello! What's the best way to remove the Cuisine by country category from this archive page: Talk:Cuisine of Luxembourg/Archive 1? It was linked by someone in a discussion thread and I don't want to modify any of the content since archive content generally should not be edited. BaduFerreira (talk) 13:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

It's perfectly legitimate to correct such mistakes. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Cool, I just copyedited it away. Thank you! BaduFerreira (talk) 13:47, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@BaduFerreira For future reference: When a category is being mentioned, rather than assigned to a page, it needs a ":" before the word "Category". That's what was missing and has now been fixed. PamD 13:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh okay, I was looking for a way to preserve the linked category without removing it outright but I misinterpreted Michael's comment as to just remove it entirely. Thank you for the heads-up! BaduFerreira (talk) 14:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Request for comment SmallCat

There is a discussion that may be of your interest about a Request for comment on replacement to SmallCat guideline. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 05:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle, Nederlandse Leeuw, RevelationDirect, and Jc37: Courtesy ping to editors working on the Wikipedia:Merge for now essay and author of a previous RfC that deprecated SmallCat and which I analyzed to make the proposal. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 05:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Idea for category or list

A category or list of "Bills left unsigned by US President that became law" would be useful for research.

I am thinking it might be more appropriate as a list but I could use some guidance.

I could not find an existing similar category or list. Mike Richardson (talk) 05:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 4 § Category:Fair use images

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 4 § Category:Fair use images. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:15, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Alternatives to PetScan?

There seems to be issues with PetScan. Are there alternatives to it? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 05:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Glad to know I wasn’t the only one having issues with it. I thought I must have been using it incorrectly! Best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 09:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Cirrus search, despite its limitations, has more features than many editors realise. AWB can also produce lists, even if the user has no intention of editing those pages with AWB. For editors familiar with SQL, there are Quarry and {{Database report}}, though both take far longer to code than PetScan. Of course, we have WhatLinksHere. Certes (talk) 10:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm constantly getting the good old ®exp_filter bug (i.e. if PetScan fails, check all the tabs and fields for "®exp_filter") that's still not fixed. 85.76.13.79 (talk) 12:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

That bug occurs when one copies the "Link to a pre-filled form...", pastes it into a wikitext or HTML page then views that in a browser (details). Certes (talk) 13:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but it also sometimes happens in other scenarios, too, e.g.:

• 1) I opened https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ (so not a pre-filled url)
• 2) Only filled the fields:

• a) Categories
• b) Depth
• c) Has none of these templates

• 3) Clicked "Do it"
• 4) Search failed and I found the "®exp_filter" in the "Links to" field

85.76.13.79 (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

That is surprising. I've not seen that behaviour before, and it doesn't fit the explanation I gave in the details link above. Perhaps there are multiple related bugs. Certes (talk) 14:27, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Since it's happening to me all the time now, I managed to make a quick video to prove that it happens: https://streamable.com/eltfm4 (link expires in 2 days). 85.76.13.79 (talk) 14:31, 19 December 2023 (UTC)