Jump to content

Talk:2023 Prague shootings

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ŠJů (talk | contribs) at 02:31, 22 December 2023 (→‎False information about the city of Kladno: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Title

Should it be 2023 Prague shooting, Charles University shooting, Prague university shooting or something else? X2023X (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with the current title for now Marginataen (talk) 17:26, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the crimes started outside Prague the title isn't entirely accurate, but then again in that case neither are the listed alternatives. Unless it becomes 2023 Prague and Kladno shootings or the like. Paris1127 (talk) 18:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Sandy Hook shooting involved the killing of Lanza’s mother; do we call it the Sandy Hook and Newtown shootings? 188.231.9.162 (talk) 22:52, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Paris1127: Hostouň is in Kladno District, but not in Kladno. It is closer to Prague than to Kladno. The previous single murder in Hostouň and possibly the double murder in Prague-Klánovice are more a prelude to the encyclopedically significant massacre event than a part of it. From a local point of view, it is more appropriate to refer to the specific faculty whose main building was the scene of the shooting, rather than the entire university or the entire city or country. The historic headquarters and current official seat of the entire university is in a slightly different location. --ŠJů (talk) 00:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe Charles University shooting or Prague university shooting is the way to go; the year isn't needed (unless there was a previous one), and Prague shooting is too vague. Or perhaps Jan Palach Square shooting? Paris1127 (talk) 01:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have any proof about the weapon?

There are no citations for the fact that it is an AR-15 or AR-10-style weapon, does anyone have any proof that that is the case? 188.231.9.162 (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed, thanks. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 18:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just a semi auto or bolt rifle, judging by the photo of him which is abit too blurry.
Could we just put long gun or rifle as the gun used for now? Koltinn (talk) 20:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
just "rifle" is fine, as long as there's a citation in the body of the article for the info sawyer * he/they * talk 20:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is mentioned in an interview during the news broadcast of "TV Nova" that the rifle is a ZEV 30. AggressiveC (talk) 20:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ZEV AR-30, i'm pretty sure. AggressiveC (talk) 20:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Region locked source though, so people without an vpn cant easily access it. Koltinn (talk) 20:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I get that, but it's still a source. If I recall correctly, they mention the gun not only during the interview, but before it as well. AggressiveC (talk) 20:25, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m pretty sure that the ZEV AR-30 is based on the Armalite rifle of the same name, which has a shorter-length handguard and barrel than the one seen in the photograph. 188.231.9.162 (talk) 21:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

NYT isn’t the only source?

I’d just like the user by the name of Toadspike to know that the New York Times isn’t the only reliable source reporting this incident. 188.231.9.162 (talk) 18:19, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can edit the article and add more sources? Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 18:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Courtesy ping: Toadspike Queen of Hearts ❤️ (she/they 🎄 🏳️‍⚧️) 18:28, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the ping. To the IP editor: I do not mean to offend by making many edits based on the NYT article. It is simply the source I have open, and one which says basically the same thing as most of the other American sources. I assume this criticism is about me changing the number of dead to 15. The NYT includes the victims father in the 15, and at the time no other sources cited here reported a number above 15, so I assumed they all also included the father in the 15. Now it seems that the number of dead has unfortunately risen further, so this may be a moot point.
As for me making many, very rapid edits, I am doing this to avoid edit conflicts. I hope it isn't annoying to those tracking the edit history. Toadspike (talk) 18:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Beginning of article

Right now we have "On 21 December 2023, more than 23 people, including the perpetrator, David Kozák, and his father, were killed in a mass shooting at the Faculty of Arts, Charles University on Jan Palach Square in central Prague, Czech Republic."

I propose something like:

"On 21 December 2023 more than X people were killed in a mass shooting Faculty of Arts, Charles University in central Prague, Czech Republic."

Then move the other info somewhere lower: "Police identified David Kozák as the shooter, who took his own life after killing X others. Police said that Kozák shot his father to death earlier in the day." Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Btw., at least one of the victims of the shooting was not directly killed, but fell off a ledge while hiding from the gunman. --ŠJů (talk) 00:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"According to...." language

Please note that because Wikipedia has its references system, WP:INTEXT says "It is preferable not to clutter articles with information best left to the references. Interested readers can click on the ref to find out the publishing journal" — in other words, news media has to say "According to..." due to journalistic considerations of who got the scoop, plus their inability to insert lengthy references in the midst of their article. Wikipedia has refs, and is an encyclopedia, not news, so Wikipedia articles simply report what the sources says while leaving it to the refs to indicate who said it. Abductive (reasoning) 19:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding on this: @AggressiveC, you keep re-adding unnecessary attribution.
"which the news reported stated later in a live interview broadcasted by TV Nova, a Czech television station."
This doesn't need to be in the article. I'm going to remove it unless you or others demonstrate why we need a full sentence which a reader can learn more about by clicking the ref
Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, and if it's really necessary to have in the article, it could read like this: "She later gave an account of this interaction to TV Nova." Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 20:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure the full video was only broadcast on TV Nova, so it would make sense to add this info there, wouldn't it? AggressiveC (talk) 20:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think people reading the article care where the interview aired, but I left a condensed version of the attribution, so for now it is still there. Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 20:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is the point of the ‘he who shall not be named’ situation with the suspect’s name?

Several news sources have reported the name of the suspect as David Kozak, including the Daily Telegraph and several local news sources. Why keep it hidden any longer? 188.231.9.162 (talk) 19:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's literally in the article? Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 19:39, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There’s an invisible comment in the introduction stating ‘don’t name the suspect’. People have been upholding this, even though the entire thing is pointless. 188.231.9.162 (talk) 19:41, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just don't name him in the lead. His name is given lower down. Abductive (reasoning) 19:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:SUSPECT. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SUSPECT: "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law."
However, the named suspect is dead and therefore does not fall under BLP. Celjski Grad (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rifle used in shooting?

The Daily Telegraph’s article has a photograph of Kozak holding a rifle upon a balcony, it looks to be a Norwegian variant of the Heckler & Koch G3, the AG-3F1. However, I am not sure. Could someone attempt to verify the rifle used? 188.231.9.162 (talk) 19:50, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait until a reliable source has confirmed it. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is mentioned in an interview during the news broadcast of "TV Nova" that the rifle is a ZEV 30. AggressiveC (talk) 20:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not an AG3, is all black and there isn't any forest green handrail and stock.
it's some magasine fed rifle. Koltinn (talk) 20:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like some kind of G3-type rifle; possibly a H&K MSG90 or heavily modified PSG1. 188.231.9.162 (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
what it looks like is irrelevant until it's confirmed by reliable sources. sawyer * he/they * talk 21:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I know it’s irrelevant; no harm in speculation, though. 188.231.9.162 (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
wikipedia talk pages aren't the place to speculate sawyer * he/they * talk 21:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, just a black rifle shape with a bipod..
Siding with sawyer, at that angle and zoom being shot on cellphone, only the shooter knows at the moment and he's dead.. Koltinn (talk) 22:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Association with Klanovicky murders

The BBC is reporting that police believe the suspect is connected to the Klanovicky murders last week, an incident mentioned in The New York Times's article. How should this be integrated into the article? elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it can stay in the "suspect" section, and if there ends up being enough substance, a subsection can be created. sawyer * he/they * talk 20:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should the article mention something was written or X or not?

Some people are changing whether it should say via X, or not. If one or the other, why not remove all mentions of "via X" and not just one? AggressiveC (talk) 20:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weapon acquired legally? Change the name of the article to "2023 Charles University shooting"

Did anyone read about the fact that the weapons used were acquired legally? I thought I read it in the news, but can't find it.

I also suggest that the name of the article changes to "2023 Charles University shooting", "2023 Charles University mass shooting" or "2023 Charles University mass murder". Scishare (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

what's your reasoning for the name change? sawyer * he/they * talk 20:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a previous discussion regarding the title. See #Title for that discussion. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Scishare: This article in Hospodářské noviny online mentions that the Czech Police President Martin Vondrášek said at the press conference that David Kozák was the legal owner (literally: legal holder) of several guns.

As for the title of the article, I support your proposal (or even more specific name). From Prague's point of view, it is adequate to state the name of the specific faculty in the title. That building (built 1924–1930) is primarily and specifically known as the building of Faculty of Philosophy = Faculty of Arts (of the Charles University). The official and historical seat of the university as a whole is rather the Karolinum (Collegium Carolinum). The building in Celetná street, where the police were waiting for the perpetrator, but where they did not arrive, is the rear part of that historic university complex. Although this shooting is the biggest massacre in the history not only of Prague, but of the entire Czech Republic (which is younger than Czechia itself), the main plot took place only at that one modern building nearby the Vltava river – although he allegedly shot at the opposite building as well as at the nearby bridge over the Vltava, and the panic spread to the nearby nearby Charles Bridge too. Although the significance of the event is pan-European, the shooting was not a Prague-wide event. --ŠJů (talk) 00:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shooters death

Didn't he shoot himself then fall or did he get shot by cops? Some articles say he fell other say he was killed by police gun fire. Koltinn (talk) 20:49, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Koltinn: The first official information was that the shooter was "eliminated". Unofficial informations had two variants: that he jumped from the roof terrace of the building, and that he shot himself. So far, it seems likely that all three variants are true: he was surrounded by police, shot himself in the neck and fell from a building. The police fired at him, but it is not confirmed if he was hit. An official examination of the body was difficult because it was hugely devastated. Officially, no details have been released yet. --ŠJů (talk) 00:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Flag salad "Reactions" section

As many of you know, most editors despise list-formatted "Reactions" sections, especially the flag icons. These sections should be converted into prose—not a bulleted (flagged) list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets, and should have encyclopedic value. A politician giving his/her condolences does not have much, if any, encyclopedic value, and certainly does not need its own sentence. Abductive (reasoning) 00:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Possible fake Telegramm account

The Telegramm account, including the citations about alleged inspiration from Bryansk and Kazan, was questioned as a possible fake. The information coming from this channel should be clearly separated from the information we know about the person of the offender from trusted sources (such as study focus, academic achievements and his own academic work, which is information that someone deleted from the article). Some politicians and the police president etc. mentioned information from the Telegramm acount, but the Czech journalist Ondřej Soukup who covers Russia, after consulting with two Russian journalists (David Frenkel, Timur Olevskiy), came to the conclusion that the account was fake. Some of the alleged perpetrator's posts were edited when the perpetrator was already dead. According to them, the posts were written by a native Russian speaker, one who is deeply immersed in the Russian youth context. In addition, there are spelling mistakes that are typical for Russian students. Soukup's version is that some Russian kept his diary and, after hearing about the shooting in Prague, renamed his account to the perpetrator's name. ŠJů (talk) 02:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

False information about the city of Kladno

The article contains the sentence: "A police officer with Interpol Prague identified the perpetrator as David K, a 24-year-old world history student from the city of Kladno, 24 kilometers from Prague." with two references.

The first reference, from Novinky.cz, mentions "úmrtí v obci na Kladensku" ("death in a municipality in Kladno region), the screenshot of the police identikit states Kladno District as the domicile of the searched David Kozák. The city of Kladno is not mentioned. (The affected municipality of Hostouň was also not mentioned directly here, this localization was officially announced some time later).

The second reference, from BBC News, does not contain the word "Kladno" at all on the linked page.

It is interesting that while those erroneous and untrue information in the article are repeatedly renewed without verification by someone (someone even repeatedly put them back in the chapter title), some relevant and substantiated information are deleted. In addition, false information is put into the mouth of a police officer or Interpol Prague, who probably did not tell such a lie. Hostouň is closer to Prague than to Kladno. ŠJů (talk) 02:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2023_Prague_shootings&oldid=1191193906"