Talk:Armenian genocide

Complaint

As we all know, one of Wikipedia's goals is to use widespread collaborative editing to improve articles. I was wondering, as merely a contributor not a wikipedian, how one can request an administrative action or open a dispute resolution against an editor who, by her demonstrated unwillingness to engage in advancement or improvement of this article, essentially violates Wikipedia’s fundamental principle Wikipedia:Assume good faith and its extension Wikipedia:Attempting to Improve? Thanks in advance for anybody’s help.73.173.64.115 (talk) 16:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Davidian

There are various places you could go such as WP:DR, WP:ANI, and WP:AE. I wouldn't recommend it, though. (t · c) buidhe 17:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

See also WP:BOOMERANG — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 23:26, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Have just heard prof Bedross Der Matossian in a lecture say that genocide scholars are in disagreement about the end date of the Armenian Genocide, or even if it has actually ended (since ongoing genocide denial, or ongoing cultural cleansing of Armenian cultural monuments, or ongoing ethnic cleansing of Armenians in Artsakh can be argued as being inescapably linked to the Armenian Genocide). But there is no such uncertainty among the "experts" who currently own this article. Gone even is the 1923 date that was formerly Wikipedia's official end date for the Armenian Genocide. Why don't we just simplify it and make it "over by summer 1915" and give this article the gravitas it deserves? As for Davidian's question - all I can say is that you reap what you sow - it is not the editor you are complaining about who is most to blame for the current state of the article, it is the many years worth of endless infighting and agenda seeking by past editors that has created an open door for the current editors. 92.1.135.157 (talk) 00:58, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

What do you want it to say, "1915–disputed?" (t · c) buidhe 04:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I would like it to say what it once said (like here: [1]), "1915-1923", with sources provided to prove it of course, and ideally with a footnote worded to explain that those dates are the most widely accepted dates but that the end date is disputed, again with sources to prove it. I don't know if there is a print source for Bedross Der Matossian's even if it has actually ended opinion. Suny's p330 opinion that the Armenian Genocide ended by "late January 1917" is contradicted by, I'd say, 100s of other RS sources, in fact by just about every book on the Armenian Genocide that I've seen. And he almost immediately contradicts himself by mentioning in the very same page massacres in Erzincan in February, Erzurum in March, and Van in April 1917 (massacres which destroyed the entire surviving Armenian populations of those places - in what way is that not genocide). I do not know if Suny has some sort of agenda or thesis to confine the Armenian Genocide to the period of the Ottoman Empire's administrators having direct control of that genocide, but, regardless, most sources I have seen does not make such an artificial confinement. Nor do they confine it to the Ottoman Empire's territory alone, but include territory occupied by the Ottoman Empire during WW1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.135.157 (talk) 01:47, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the edit history, the entire infobox, with the 1915-1923 date, was deleted at one point without any explanation, then, some months later, it was reinstated but with "1923" replaced by "disputed". I do not find a discussion about this change at the time. Then "disputed" became "1917" [2], and again I do not see talk page discussion about this important change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.135.157 (talk) 02:12, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this change is possible, considering that more sources say it ended during wwi than after. (t · c) buidhe 06:19, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Not surprised by your reply, considering your edit history here and not because of your uncited "more sources". I see but a single source (Suny). I doubt the second (French) source, which I admit I do not have access to, says the genocide ended in 1917 because I found a review of it that contained this text: "Finally, he analyzes the State negationism of the Republic as the direct extension of genocidal violence, tracing the lines of continuity between unionism and Kemalism". The majority of sources do not give a specific end date because of the uncertainty of what counts as the end. Vahakn Dadrian's "The History of the Armenian Genocide" has a chapter on the Ottoman invasion of Russian territory in the Caucasus that took place in 1918, titled "The Ittihadist Thrust against Russian Armenia"; and has a chapter on the Kemalist Turkey invasion of the Armenian Republic in 1920, titled "The Kemalist thrust against Russian Armenia". So this source DOES NOT consider that the Armenian Genocide ended in 1917, but that it continued until at least 1920. From the latter chapter here are some quotes that make it clear that the author considers this period to be an integral part of the Armenian Genocide. p357 "The top leadership of the Kemalist movement was animated with the same impulses of nationalism that drove the Ittihadist to commit genocide"; also p357, Mustafa Kemal delays the invasion because he is concerned that "a new Armenian Massacre" could make America turn against his government, but is eventually assured of the "improbability" that America will react; p358 "They [the Armenians] were trapped in the clutches of a new conspiracy of genocide"; also p358, the author cites Turkish government invasion instructions that "Armenia be annihilated politically and physically" (the original Turkish is also given), in the rest of the chapter Dadrian goes on to show that this comprised "the recurrence of the World War 1 Ittihadist pattern of genocidal intent" (quote also from p358). And a final quote from the book, to open up discussion on the other lies that have been inserted into the infobox, namely "Location - Ottoman Empire; Target - Ottoman Armenians". On p433 "What needs to be underscored as a central feature is the glaring evidence of Ottoman Turkish determination to maximize the genocidal sweep against the Armenians - beyond the geographical confines of the Ottoman Empire and consistent with the possibilities and opportunities emerging from the conditions of warfare". Peter Balakian also includes the years 1918 and 1920 as part of the period of the Armenian Genocide. In his "The Burning Tigris: the Armenian Genocide", on p318, "With the bulk of the genocidal killing done, Turkey was still not finished with Armenia. In the spring of 1918, and then in the fall of 1920, first the Ottoman army and then the new Kemalist army invaded the new republic of Armenia". Finally, though Buidhe may feint lack of knowledge of it, there is the widely known and widely-accepted "ten stages of genocide" list, in which the final stage is given as "Denial". The perpetrator state still denies the Armenian Genocide (there is as whole Wikipedia article to prove it), and so based on this classification we are still within the final stage of the Armenian Genocide (i.e., it has not ended). I have already cited prof Bedross Der Matossian saying the same thing in a lecture. He probably also says it in print form in the just published "Denial of Genocides in the Twenty-First Century" (Univ. of Nebraska Press, 2023), edited by Bedross Der Matossian. For these reasons I now think the previous "1915 - disputed" wording, wording that was erased by Buidhe without any talk page discussion, would be the best and most accurate wording to have, with the reasons for saying "disputed" being explained in detail in a footnote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.135.157 (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Raymond Kevorkian also unequivocally writes that the massacres and ethnic cleansing committed during the 1920 invasion of the Republic of Armenia were part of the Armenian Genocide. From "The Armenian Genocide, a Complete History", page 804, "The Kemalist commitment to genocidal action against Caucasian Armenians marked the passage from witness of the original Young Turk movement to the new unionist wave unified by Mustafa Kemal" and "By offering itself to the Bolsheviks, Caucasian Armenia escaped a third phase of the genocide". Taner Akcam, in "A shameful Act" also considers there was a continuation of the genocide in the post war period. On p114, he writes "After the war, despite their defeat, the Ottomans still believed that the Armenians were an obstacle and should be eliminated, policies that were clearly stated at an Istanbul meeting held by the Turkish Hearth Association on 18 February 1920. The newly established government in Ankara continued this same policy after 1919."

I am starting to think that a complaint against Buidhe regarding his editing behaviour on this article is justifiable. Although Buidhe had made hundreds of separate edits to this article, none of Buidhe's edits have ever been preceded by, or accompanied by, any talk page justification or explanation or discussion, even if the edit has resulted in a very significant content change (such an the end date of the genocide being changed by Buidhe from "1915 - disputed" to "1915 - 1917"). In fact, the entire talk page presence here by Buidhe has consisted of Buidhe claiming gatekeeper/ownership control over an extended-protected article and saying "no" to everything other editors might suggest as content changes or additions. In both this thread and the thread titled "Date in infobox" the responses by Buidhe to the genocide end date issue are identical in their brevity, their dismissive and disrespectful delivery, and their complete refusal to acknowledge the numerous sources that have been presented. The responses are also identical in content: for this thread it is "more sources say it ended during wwi than after", for the former it is "most sources on the topic don't consider this part of the "Armenian genocide" that started in 1915" - yet Buidhe continues to present no sources to support that assertion! The fact about the sources is that the vast majority do not give an end date to the Armenian Genocide, but almost all contain details of events of 1918, 1919, 1920 and 1921 in their accounts of the Armenian Genocide. Set against these, Suny, in the single source that has been presented to support a date of 1917, is an extreme minority viewpoint in both giving a date and making it 1917. This is why I again suggest that "1915 - disputed" would be the most accurate wording. 2.103.199.143 (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Admin note: I am starting to think that you need to be warned for personal attacks, and inappropriate focus on individual editors. Please focus on finding consensus, and not on other editors. Editors are not obligated to respond to you. Acroterion (talk) 16:12, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course I realised before I posted anything here that Buidhe is hardcore Wikipedia project-friendly, ticking all the boxes and then some. However, Buidhe has twice said the majority of sources give 1917 as an end date - but he has not cited those sources. Other editors have cited many sources that do not agree with 1917 (and with Buidhe curtly dismissing one editor's list as "cherry picking"). What should be made of the lack of response to that request for sources? As you say, editors are not obliged to reply - but does the lack of a reply and lack of sources to support the initial assertion, mean that Buidhe's opinion on this specific content issue can now be dismissed? Since you have brought the subject of consensus up, do you disagree that Buidhe's entire presence within this talk page has been to say "no" to the content suggestions of other editors; and that he has never, not even once, made any content suggestions or attempted to gain any sort of consensus on this talk page before making his own article content changes? Is that ideal editing behaviour? No consensus agreed to the end date change made by Buidhe that is the subject of this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.103.199.143 (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

There are indeed many sources that give 1915-1917 or similar dates for the genocide.

• Suny 2015 as cited
• Borzarslan et al. 2015 as cited
• Akcam 2012 and Kevorkian 2011 (look at the table of contents for either. Additionally, in a later publication Kevorkian refers to "another genocide" in the context of the Turkish invasion of Armenia in 1920, which would not make sense unless the first genocide was considered to have ended)
• de Waal 2015 (search "1916" in the book)
• Nichanian 2015 (gives 1915-1918)

These are just taken from sources already cited in the article. I understand that arguments have been made for other dates, up to and including the present (btw this is not Der Matossian's idea, if he supports it he probably lifted it from Talin Suciyan). There is also minority view that puts the start date in 1914 or earlier. This is why I would support removing the infobox. However, if we're going to have an infobox, I don't think it helps our readers to say that the dates are disputed when the majority of RS place them during WWI. (t · c) buidhe 23:19, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

There should be a not to be confused with the Hamidian Massacres template message at the top of this article

The 20th century genocide can be easily confused with the 19th century massacres of Ottoman Armenians Smahwk (talk) 07:28, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I've never seen the latter event referred to as the "Armenian genocide". Any sources for this? (t · c) buidhe 14:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I have never seen the term "genocide" being used to describe the Hamidian massacres, however I think that this page should have a template message as a casual reader might get confused between them since both involve Armenians being massacred by Ottomans Smahwk (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Should I add this?

This article is about the Armenian genocide which took place in the 20th century. For the 19th century mas killings of Ottoman Armenians, see Hamidian Massacres.

The article on the Hamidian Massacres also has a similar disclaimer Smahwk (talk) 14:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

In addition to this, John Kirakosyan and the authors of The Thirty-Year Genocide have also opined that the massacres were just the initial stages of the Armenian genocide.The massacres of the WWI were also concurrent with the Greek Genocide ,making the clarification more important. Smahwk (talk) 14:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I realize there are a few authors who call the 1890s massacres a genocide, however, hatnotes are only used if the article title is ambiguous, and I don't think it is because "Armenian genocide" always refers to the subject of the article. Even if a reader came here looking for an article about both the 1890s massacres and the 1915 genocide, they would find both of them covered in this article. (t · c) buidhe 15:16, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Infobox info

Buidhe just removed the infobox. I'm generally supportive of infoboxes, but I think there is a valid argument that most of the information in this infobox is oversimplified.

Most of the content of the infobox probably still belongs in the article. I'm preserving a copy of the infobox below so we ensure none of the substantive information about the genocide is lost from article.

Removed infobox

Armenian genocide
Part of World War I
Column of Armenian deportees guarded by gendarmes in Harput vilayet
Location	Ottoman Empire
Date	1915–1917
Target	Ottoman Armenians
Attack type	Genocide, death march, forced Islamization
Deaths	600,000–1.5 million
Perpetrators	Committee of Union and Progress

References

— BillHPike (talk, contribs) 05:27, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

See the above debate about dates.

Another concern I have is about the perpetrator section, although it was certainly organized by the CUP there were a variety of perpetrators that don't fit neatly into an infobox slot.

I don't know if "attack type" is particularly helpful information, especially since it repeats what is already in the lead.

The genocide only took place in specific parts of the Ottoman Empire and arguably also took place in adjoining areas of Russia and Iran (which partly depends on which dates are included) thus perhaps including some victims who were actually Russian or Iranian Armenians. (t · c) buidhe 06:10, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

The CUP regrouped as the Turkish Nationalist Movement?

This article states:

The CUP regrouped as the Turkish nationalist movement to fight the Turkish War of Independence, relying on the support of perpetrators of the genocide and those who had profited from it.

Yet the actual page for the CUP appears to show the situation was much more complicated:

Though most Unionists chose to rally around Mustafa Kemal and his Turkish national movement against the government in Constantinople and renew war against the Allies, some Unionists were dissatisfied and Kara Kemal ^[tr] briefly revived the CUP in January 1922. Unionist journalist Hüseyin Cahit declared Union and Progress would not contest the 1923 general election for the Ankara based parliament against Atatürk's People's Party. However, dissatisfied with the secularist policies the Republicans were pushing through, such as the abolition of the Caliphate, Kara Kemal's CUP supported the creation of the Progressive Republican Party, which splintered from the People's Party (which renamed itself to the Republican People's Party). The Progressive Republican Party and the remaining nonconforming Unionists were purged for good following the İzmir Affair, an alleged assassination attempt against Mustafa Kemal. Dr. Nazım, Mehmed Cavid, and İsmail Canbulat ^[tr] met their ends in the subsequent Independence Tribunals with Kara Kemal committing suicide before his execution. With opposition quashed, Atatürk consolidated his power and continued ruling Turkey until his death in 1938.

This should be cleared up so that we have no contradictions. In any case, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of sources state that Mustafa Kemal's national movement was rather organic and that the CUP did not just become the Turkish National Movement. Evaporation123 (talk) 03:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The paragraph is entirely unsourced in the CUP article so it counts for absolutely nothing. Besides, this is a matter that only needs one sentence in this article, what you've posted would be far too much detail even if it were supported adequately by FA-level citations. (t · c) buidhe 03:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

It is sourced though. Wikipedia doesn't let you copy and paste citations across pages, so check the original page and you'll see. Evaporation123 (talk) 03:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, I can see that there are two sources cited partway through the paragraph that do not support all the content, but neither of them are acceptable in a FA on a controversial history topic anyway so the distinction is moot. BTW you can copy the citations, you can easily view and copy the wikitext using source editing mode. (t · c) buidhe 04:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Mistake in sourcing

I am referring to the following sentence in the Background section:

"Armenians were a minority in most places where they lived, alongside Turkish and Kurdish Muslim and Greek Orthodox Christian neighbors."

An editor seems to have mistakenly copied the source used for the next statement and used it here as well. The assessment is more or less directly taken out of Suny's They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else, but also cites Kévorkian who in the cited work opposes the idea that Armenians were "a minority" in the Armenian Highlands. The cited page does not contain any information about this. It's kinda ironic to make a statement like this that so much of the literature on the Armenian Genocide disagrees with and then citing one of those works by mistake, isn't it? AlenVaneci (talk) 10:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

The Turkish version of this article

In the Turkish version of this article the "genocide" is downgraded to a "massacre", and it is also claimed that there "are doubts about the impartiality of this article".

How can a negationist description of such a serious crime against humanity be accepted on Wikipedia? 95.182.182.30 (talk) 15:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

We don't have any power over the Turkish Wikipedia, but interested editors might choose to head over there and improve the article, presuming their Turkish language skills are strong enough. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

This article can be translated into Turkish if anyone has the linguistic skills. I bet it has already been translated into some other languages and posted at other Wikipedias. (t · c) buidhe 17:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Read do not create wp:hoaxes. 176.219.154.227 (talk) 16:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Sarikamish Contradiction

It seems this article and Battle of Sarikamish can't agree on whether it's been verified that Enver Pasha publicly blamed the Armenians for his defeat in that battle or not.

I have absolutely no opinion on the subject, and don't wish to stick my foot in a tarpit, but whichever one it is, the two articles need to express the same conclusion, or even a lack thereof. Ipatrol (talk) 23:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)