Talk:Asim Munir

Controversies

In yet another case of blatant corruption by a Pakistan Army officer the Core Commander of Gujranwala Lieutenant General Asim Munir demanded Rs. 90 crore extortion money from the chief executive officer of Master Tiles, one of the largest companies of Pakistan that employs over ten million people. However this was denied by the chief executive officer of Master Tiles and confirmed by Lieutenant General (retired) Amjad Shoaib.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emL2FmZ3Ilg

Lt. Gen. Asim Munir had earlier held the plum positions of DG ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence) and DG Military Intelligence 81.157.166.61 (talk) 06:54, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2023

I want to add a "Personal life" section before the "Military career" section, going as follow:

"Asim Munir's family roots lie in Toba Tek Singh but they have been living in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad for decades now. His father was the principal of a technical school, a brother is also a teacher while his brother-in-law Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir passed away in an air crash in 2003.

Locally, the family has been known to be religious and scholarly, Asim Munir's father being a Hafiz-e-Quran, having memorized the entire Qur'an by heart, and he himself memorized the Qur'an in Rawalpindi's Madrassah Darul Tajweedul Quran, being a student of a well-known local scholar and preacher, Hafiz Khalil Ahmed." 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:3142:CE82:1C31:47C5 (talk) 08:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

References

 Partly done: Added section and second paragraph with rewrites for clarity and better coherence to citation in this diff. Feel free to ping me if any of my changes are unacceptable. First paragraph not done because requested text is not supported by given citation. Reopen the edit request if reliable sources can be found. Xan747 (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Greetings, I want to first thank you for at least adding the second paragraph.

As for the 1st paragraph it was present in the link but now apparently it's no more accessible unless you're a subscriber, but I've found another link with the exact same info :

Read the very last paragraph in particular.

Also it'd be good to include the name of Mushaf Ali Mir in the Infobox, in the relatives cat as "brother-in-law".

Thanks again. 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:9918:D448:6E18:976B (talk) 09:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done with minor changes. Scientia potentia est, -MonarchOfTerror (talk) 11:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi thanks a lot, can I ask for other slight changes ?

There seems to be an extra comma (",") here (subsection "Personal life", second paragraph) :

"He was also a student of Islamic preacher, Hafiz Khalil Ahmed."

The "," between "preacher" and "Hafiz" seems to break the fluidity of the sentence.

Also could we rephrase the beginning of this 2nd paragraph ? Because we get "Asim Munir's family" twice, at the beginning of the 2nd one we could say "His family" instead.

Lastly : the subsection name "Retirement & Reappointment" could be restylized as "Retirement and reappointment" (the & and capital letter in second word seems odd from Wikipedia's usual writing templates).

Thanks. 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:7027:23CA:905C:63F2 (talk) 06:00, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done All requested changes implemented. Scientia potentia est, -MonarchOfTerror^(talk) 07:59, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

27 June 2023

User:Raheelejaz907 I do not understand why you're removing my sourced edit. I previously warned you for reverting my sourced edit without providing an explanation, and now you reverted my edit again, but this time by falsely claiming in an edit summary that its "IP Vandalism," even though I am logged in. Please stop before you are reported for edit warring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SahafatKaLover18 (talk • contribs) 09:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello User:SilkTork kindly facilitate this discussion between us as User:Raheelejaz907 still has not responded. SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 22:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, what do we do if they don't respond? Can I restore my edit? SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 22:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

You wish to make an edit saying that Asim Munir was known as "The Deceiver" - correct? And you are sourcing that information to a Twitter account. Only in exceptional cases would we accept a Twitter account as a reliable source, and never as a source on a living person. See WP:RSSELF. So you would need to find a reliable source first. I also note that you wish to add Shah to his name in the lead, which I understand would be an honorary title rather than part of his name. Currently in the lead his name is given as "Syed Asim Munir Ahmed", while in the infobox his name is given as "Asim Munir Ahmad Shah". So Shah is an honorary title, and Syed is an honorary title. And it appears to me that both can be used. There is a news source here which uses both: DND. I am unsure how reliable the source is. There is another news source Indian Express. We have an article on The Indian Express, which sugest it would be a reliable source. If unsure whether a source is reliable, you can ask at WP:RSN.

When Raheelejaz907 returns to editing you can discuss this edit together and come to an agreement. It appears to me that using Shah is supported by sources, though it would be appropriate to get Raheelejaz907's opinion. To use "The Deceiver" you'd need to have a reliable source, and to hear Raheelejaz907's objection. Allow Raheelejaz907 a few more days to respond before making an edit. Don't make an edit without notifying me first. And make sure you have reliable sources for any information you wish to add. SilkTork (talk) 00:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

The reliable source is the Twitter account, Wajahat S. Khan. He is a journalist and majority of his shows were with the army. He didn't come up with the moniker himself, the nickname is in the student yearbook of the Pakistan Command and Staff College which Asim attended as a Major where he was given the nickname "The Deceiver". You can see it in this tweet [1] SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 01:32, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I have found that User:Raheelejaz907 is editing off of User:Raheeiejaz907 account which is why they have not responded to this discussion or on their talk page. What do we do now? Also could you please respond to my previous reply, thanks. SahafatKaLover18 (talk) 02:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

In regards to your previous reply, I'm not sure if you noticed what I had written above: "Only in exceptional cases would we accept a Twitter account as a reliable source, and never as a source on a living person. See WP:RSSELF. So you would need to find a reliable source first." To make it clearer: you cannot use the Twitter source, so you'll need to find a reliable source for the school nickname of "The Deceiver"; and if it is agreed to use that information, it has to be placed in context (ie, not in the first sentence), but in an Early history section about where he was born, and his education. That someone had a nickname at school or college is not in itself essential information.

I'll take a look at the User:Raheelejaz907 / User:Raheeiejaz907 situation. SilkTork (talk) 11:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Raheeiejaz907 has been indefinitely blocked as a sock of User:Raheelejaz907, and User:Raheelejaz907 has been blocked for one week as the sockmaster.

SahafatKaLover18, you may continue editing this article, but do not include the contentious edits - that Asim Munir was known as "The Deceiver" and that his name includes the title Shah, until Raheelejaz907's block is over, and they have had a chance to discuss the issue. If they have not responded here by ten days time, you may include that information, but only if you use cites to reliable sources which support the information, and that the information is placed in the appropriate place in the article, as discussed above. SilkTork (talk) 12:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

his name in PMA was "The Deceiver" thats what he is doing now. Deceiving the people of Pakistan. 37.210.87.203 (talk) 11:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Wrong ethnic info

In the personal life section it’s written that Asim Munir is Urdu speaking but he’s actually Punjabi.

See this :

"His parents migrated from Jalandhar, east Punjab […] he would be the eighth Punjabi Army Chief […]"

Source : https://www.firstpost.com/opinion-news-expert-views-news-analysis-firstpost-viewpoint/gen-asim-munir-unlikely-to-be-busy-on-india-front-for-now-as-imran-khan-hostile-durand-line-pose-new-challenges-11725771.html/amp

Thus I propose to change the opening lines as such :

"Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated."

Thanks. 2A02:A03F:69BC:5F00:85F9:AB43:E79C:29F (talk) 08:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: He joined the army after passing out with the sword of honour (first position) this was copied from the "firstpost" (is this a high quality source?). The second source doesn't mention Punjab. M.Bitton (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi I just quoted one source, the Firstpost one, which mentions the quote I brought and thus his ethnic Punjabi background, and yes Firstpost is considered a reliable publication. 188.95.55.126 (talk) 09:55, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

 Question: Just to make sure I understand you want to

Change: Asim Munir was born to a middle class Punjabi Muslim family. Munir's family is originally from Toba Tek Singh but they have been living in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad for decades now.

To: Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated.

OR, do you want to change only the first sentence, and leave the second sentence as is?

ALSO, the lede sentence of the article gives his name in Urdu. If he's Punjabi, should that be changed too? If so, to what? Xan747 (talk)

Hi when I wanted to make the change it was no "middle class Punjabi Muslim" but "middle class Urdu speaking", yet we can still add more details (namely his ultimate roots in India's Punjabà, so I want to make it that way :

"Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated. They moved to Toba Tek Singh before settling down in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad, where they have been established for decades now. His father, Syed Sarwar Munir [...]"

I don't put a source for the second part of the paragraph because it's already sourced in the main article, at the very end of the whole paragraph (that is, the "Aaj News" profile).

Of course you can change it in terms of style/grammar to fit it more with Wikipedia guidelines (English is not my mother tongue).

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:3089:F5C3:1F13:98E5 (talk) 18:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xan747 (talk) 03:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi thanks there's also a little thing to add and I thought it wasn't worth adding a topic if you could it there.

Basically in the main article his full name is "Syed Asim Munir Ahmed Shah"

But in the infobox it's only "Asim Munir Ahmed Shah" so I thought adding "Syed" would be interesting especially as in the native language it's there (سَیِد عاصم منیر احمد شاہ)

Thanks. 2A02:A03F:6504:1700:1129:B69C:1C57:92E6 (talk) 19:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Also done. Xan747 (talk) 20:15, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Controversies text

It seems the 'Controversies' text is written entirely by some zealot from Pakistan Tehreek Insaf (PTI) party and therefore this section should be declared as disputed. Mhikhalid (talk) 09:04, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Firstpost is an inaccurate biased source in view of pakistani affairs 39.32.158.110 (talk) 19:46, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Indian media references in "Controversies" part

Please check the "Controversies" part, the PTI anti-state goons are now using the most untrusted media's references (Indian media) to defame the country and the Army chief. 39.55.252.56 (talk) 22:47, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Add a controversies section

Looking at the previous topics i assume a section was there however it had now been removed due to it being "bias".So yeah just add it again without the bias bs DrWineBerry (talk) 14:34, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

all of the controversies were biased entirely as they either belonged to unreliable indian sources or anti state pti sources 39.32.79.194 (talk) 21:00, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Most of the things said about him are very much the truth its your ignorance that has you thinking like that DrWineBerry (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Firstpost is debunked as an inaccurate source by every media forum be it the west or east, other than that pti's fake propaganda has been exposed as imran didnt even have single proof to support moeed pirzada and pti allegations against asim in Jit courts 39.32.55.71 (talk) 12:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

mf do you even live in Pakistan? DrWineBerry (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

wiki is not for pti bias lol i live here and ik how pti ruined nation in just 4 yrs obv worsened by pdm but still lmao pti is a hypocritical corrupt party lolol 39.32.37.222 (talk) 14:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

This isn't about pti,this is about the fact that the army has its hands in civil institutions and the civil government,you obviously are a very ignorant person DrWineBerry (talk) 12:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

aint i blinded by political agenda of a criminal lol 39.44.132.87 (talk) 04:26, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

people like you are the reason we can't have civil conversations in this country,i see you all over this page dickriding the pak army.I have been talking with an ignorant idiot and wish to not continue this conversation with an intellectually disabled person,good day DrWineBerry (talk) 14:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Mf Army has nothing to do with this nonsense, target the Generals as much as you want but please don't add the Indian media references you Indian azz licker 39.45.111.25 (talk) 17:57, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

When did i add any of those links?why do you get so damn triggered over the army getting criticised that you have to call anyone who does the criticism an "indian ass licker" or "anti state pti person"The army has ruled Pakistan for more than half of its lifetime,the army has many businesses including sugar mills,real estate etc.Whenever someone criticises the army it should be obvious that the criticism isn't directed towards the normal army soldier,rather these rich generals(like bajwa and asim) who have profited from running this country to the ground.The head of SPARCO is a retired army maj.general.The head of PTA is a retired army general,The director of Nadra is a retired army brigadier,the chief executive of the PIA is a retired army air marshal,The chairman of NAB is a retired general and i could go on and on.Why the fuck are these people even here instead of capable civilians?Why the fuck does the army brutally silence anyone who speaks against it?why did they jail children and woman who had nothing to do with 9th may?Why did the army commit genocide against Bangladeshis in 1971?Yet after all the shit the army has done,people like YOU still defend it,you should be ashamed of yourself,i hope you come to your senses and do some research without your hate boner for a particular political party DrWineBerry (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Damn cope 😫 39.44.143.136 (talk) 19:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

imagine defending 2nd most corrupt politician in our history cope dawg 🤣 39.44.143.136 (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Wrong personal life info

The number of children (3) mentioned in this article is an incorrect information please remove. Alphadentist1991 (talk) 11:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Replacing external sources with proper referencing

Hi lately there has been a lot of added info in the "Personal life" section, info that is legitimate, in the sense that I don't dispute the sources, but which are referenced in a way very unlike what's seen on Wikipedia, so I was just thinking about transforming these external sources to make them more common.

I also want to replace the "Personal life" name by "Early life and education", as it'd reflect the section better, and also I brought some slight stylistical changes to make the reading better.

So it goes :

Early life and education

Asim Munir was born into a middle class Punjabi Muslim family, their roots lying in Jalandhar, now in Indian Punjab, from where his parents migrated. They moved to Toba Tek Singh before settling down in Rawalpindi's Dehri Hassanabad, where they have been established for decades now. His late father, Syed Sarwar Munir, was the principal of the FG Technical High School, Rawalpindi and Imam of a Mosque, Masjid-Al-Quraish, situated in a locality of Dheri Hassanabad, where he often delivered the Friday Khutbah sermon. Munir has two siblings, Syed Qasim Munir and Syed Hashim Munir, who are also Hafiz-e-Quran. One of his brothers is a government school teacher.

His family is locally known for being scholarly and religious. Both he and his father memorized the entire Qur'an, earning both the title of Hafiz-e-Quran, effectively making him only army chief in history of Pakistan who is Hafiz-e-Quran. Asim Munir accomplished this feat while attending the Madrassah Darul Tajweedul Quran in Rawalpindi. He was also a student of Islamic preacher Hafiz Khalil Ahmed.

Asim Munir graduated from the Fuji school, Japan, the Command and Staff College, Quetta, the Malaysian Armed Forces College, Kuala Lumpur and the National Defence University, Islamabad, where he earned his MPhil in Public Policy and Strategic Security Management.

He has been described as a fitness enthusiast, fond of running, physical workout and sports in general, and also as a keen book reader and traveller.

 Done the above, but with some modifications. I struck the final paragraph about being a fitness enthusiast, etc., as they are not very notable interests. I also did some light editing for grammar and readability. Will continue to work on the rest of this request. Xan747 (talk) 21:26, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi thanks, but "Early life and education" at the beginning is a sub-section whereas it has to be a section I think, cheers. 2A02:A03F:64ED:2600:EDEA:1CD9:E214:C31C (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

[EDIT] I just saw that in two other places the last source has been quoted as an external source, namely at the beginning :

"Asim Munir is a recipient of prestigious Sword of Honour for his excellent performance as a cadet officer of the Officer Training School.[1]"

And at the end of the "Military career" section :

"Besides, he is the only army chief in the history of Pakistan who has earlier served as chief of both premier military intelligence agencies of Pakistan, namely, Inter-Services Intelligence and Military Intelligence.[4]"

So these two external sources ([1] and [4]) should be replaced with the following link quoted in the new "Early life and education" section :

Thanks. (Previously unsigned comment added at 19:09, 23 July 2023‎ by 2a02:a03f:64ed:2600:b167:7d27:1b08:1ed1)

References

 Done Xan747 (talk) 21:31, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

(copied from the previous post)

Hi thanks, but "Early life and education" at the beginning is a sub-section whereas it has to be a section I think, cheers. 2A02:A03F:64ED:2600:EDEA:1CD9:E214:C31C (talk) 12:02, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Xan747 (talk) 15:00, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Date of birth

Asim Munir's date of birth is missing. Please find and add it. 39.39.97.142 (talk) 03:16, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2023

His Full Name: Asim Munir Whisky 2A02:6B68:1541:0:CD0F:67FC:1218:C7DD (talk) 20:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 21:26, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2023

39.47.115.156 (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Gen asim munir was not the first or the only cheif who was awarded the sword of honour, the first one was asif nawaz Janjua

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 12:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

remove or edit controversies

pti social media team is attributing opioninative articles and false/unproven accusations from either unreliable and untrustworthy sources to defame the chief or khan himself who could never prove these accusations against jit or courts, plus who uses blogs which have no proper sourcing or reluability in controversies,no such instances of threatening wives or children have proof neither in form of audio nor video, please keep wikipedia bias free for readers than to support the agenda of a violent political party whom has a history of spreading false info itself, thank you 39.44.132.87 (talk) 04:25, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

S 2A02:9B0:20:C015:9C68:B1FF:A9B4:74B2 (talk) 21:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2023

Please add:

Allegations

Asim Munir is alleged to have suppressed Pakistan Tahreek-e-Insaf (PTI) political movement in Pakistan led by Imran Khan. In the aftermath of May 9 riots, following the arrest of Imran Khan on corruption allegations, Asim Munir used military courts for civilians that rebelled against the army. On May 20, 2023 Asim Munir announced that the “legal process of trial against planners, instigators, abettors and perpetrators involved in 9 May tragedy has commenced under Pakistan Army Act and Official Secret Act.” . Furthermore, Asim Munir exhorted army professionals to root out PTI inclined individuals. . Human rights organizations raised the concerns that military trails lack the necessary safeguards and transparency, thereby exposing to the risk of potential miscarriages of justice . In a landmark judgement, the Supreme Court of Pakistan declared the trial of civilians in military courts as null and void, thereby drawing a legal line between the civilian and military domain.

References

Deactivating request as the requester is now autoconfirmed and can add this themselves if it really belongs. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

December 2023

@WaseemAbbaass Hi, I see you reverted my edit about Munir’s public image, citing “vandalism”, however, I kept a balanced view, discussing his good points and bad points, while backed by citations. Could you please tell me your reasoning for why you think it’s vandalism? VirtualVagabond (talk) 11:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2023

Remove unnecessary controversies that should not be part of the profile. Unnecessary conspiracies DaDefeender (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:Wikivoice and WP:MoS.

In the lede last line "for his excellent performance as a cadet in the Officers Training School" should just be "for his performance as a cadet in the Officers Training School." 182.183.11.242 (talk) 06:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

sword of honor is given to top cadet who is excellent in all aspects so thats why 39.38.243.40 (talk) 16:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Janruary 2023

@WaseemAbbaass Dear wikipedia editor, the public image section has been added to provide a broader perspective of how the public perceives the chief of army staff of Pakistan. Please note it is not vandalism. I will substantiate my claims here:

• Voice of Americe (VOA) article regarding interference of Army in civilian affairs and crackdown on smuggling mentions Asim Munir by name:
  • The Pakistani military is the country's most powerful institution. Despite a civilian caretaker government running the country until general elections are held next year, the head of the army, Gen. Asim Munir, is playing a prominent role in state affairs, much like his predecessors. Receiving a briefing with top provincial government officials recently, the army chief pledged that a crackdown on smuggling and other illegal activities would continue "to rid Pakistan from the substantial losses it continues to suffer due to pilferage," according to a statement issued by the military's media wing.

• First Post article regarding the deportation of Afghans mentions Asim Munir by name:
  • Pakistan Army chief General Asim Munir said on Thursday that the security of each Pakistani is of paramount importance and cannot be compromised as he highlighted the imminent deportation of thousands of illegal immigrants.

• Wilson Center article regarding the use of military courts for trial of civilians mentions Asim Munir by name:
  • The decision by Pakistan Army to try civilians accused of involvement in the May 9 riots under military laws has ignited concerns among human rights activists, raising questions about the protection of fundamental rights and civil liberties in the country. During an address to officers in Lahore Garrison on May 20, Army Chief Gen. Asim Munir announced that the “legal process of trial against planners, instigators, abettors and perpetrators involved in 9 May tragedy has commenced under Pakistan Army Act and Official Secret Act.”

• StratNews Global article clearly mentions the address of Asim Munir to root out pro-PTI individuals:
  • During these visits, the Chief of Army Staff apparently exhorted the rank and file to behave professionally, and root out pro-PTI or any other kind of political inclination from their minds.
  • It was in the context of purging the military of Khan sympathisers within and launching a full-scale operation to dismantle the ex-PM’s ecosystem that the June 4 corps commanders took place.
  • It is evident from the statement issued on Friday by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) that the military is ready to withstand any pressure, including from abroad in support of Khan, especially on grounds of human rights violations.
  • Third, the crackdown on the PTI leadership and masterminds of the May 9 attacks will now well and truly begin.

• Dawn article explicitly mentions the concerns of international organizations about use of military courts for civilians trails:
  • Regardless, the process must take place under civilian laws and in civilian-run courts where fair trial standards are far more likely to be upheld than in military courts, it demanded.
  • In the long term, as HRCP has been warning successive governments time and again that defending military courts as a quick solution is tantamount not only to shrugging off responsibility for the recent breakdown in law and order, but also to undermining civilian supremacy in general.

References