Talk:Dashavatara

Dashavatar - Regarding buddha avatar

Buddha avatar

In "Vaswani, J.P. (2017), Dasavatara[1], Jaico Publishing House, ISBN 9789386867186()" Book there is clear mention of Vishnu-buddha avatar i.e he is son of Anjana, and born in Kikata( Gaya), while Gautama Buddha is son of Mayadevi, indicates Gautam Buddha is not avatar of Vishnu Ritij Paudel (talk) 8:08, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

See note 13. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:28, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

You have to remove that buddha is founder of buddhism as ""Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24". Srimadbhagavatam.com. Archived from the original on 2007-09-26. Retrieved 2012-08-14.|Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24]]". Srimadbhagavatam.com. Archived from the original on 2007-09-26. Retrieved 2012-08-14." said clearly that Lord Buddha(Vishu-avatar) mother name is Anjana while Gautama Buddha mother name is Mayadevi. If not Justify? Ritij Paudel (talk) 20:57, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS and WP:OR, and try to get a grip on the basics of Wikipedia editing before you continue to contribute to Wikipedia. And try to give working links: Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24, Bhagavata Purana 1 Chapter 3: Krishna is the Source of All Incarnations, line 24. The only conclusion I can draw from this line is that this text gives another name for Buddha's mother than does the Buddhist tradition. We don't interpret primary sources; we give an overview of what relevant secondary sources state. And even that website, in a note to line 24, explicitly declares this Buddha to be Gautama Buddha. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 02:49, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

The Puranic Buddha not only has different parents. He also has a different birthplace . The Puranic Buddha was born in Bodh Gaya while the founder of Buddhism was born in Kapilavastu.

Do you still think it's the same Buddha ? Bodhiupasaka (talk) 05:00, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I have read the link that you provided. Neither does line 24 nor it's corresponding note declare that the Buddha they have mentioned is Gotama Buddha.

It is clear that they are not talking about the same Buddha. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 05:03, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I have a source from our Garuda Purana, It is clearly written (in english also), that he( Vishnu-buddha avatar) born in kikat(i.e Bodha-gaya) (not in Lumbini) pg 872, line 26.

Ritij Paudel (talk) 7:01 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Ritij Paudel, you are absolutely right. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:18, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Therefore , the wikipedia article claiming that Gotama Buddha, the 'founder' of Buddhism being the avatar of Vishnu is completely false. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:20, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Joshua Johnson, even the sources that you have given, clearly implies that Puranic Buddha and Gotama Buddha are completely different people. So please correct the wikipedia article accordingly. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS and WP:OR. The Puranic Buddha you're referring to is deduced from mythology; at best you can say that some people believe that there were two different Buddhas. That's already mentioned in a note. Note also that at 1800 BCE there were no Aryans nor Vedic culture in India; ergo, there wasn't a "Puranic Buddha" either. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Of course Puranic Buddha is mythological. I agree with you. And Gotama Buddha is an actual historical figure. That still does not justify why Gotama Buddha is included as an avatar of Vishnu in this article. Even your own sources(cannot stress that enough) implies that the Buddha they are mentioning about is not same Buddha who founded Buddhism. Your source does not even mention the founder of Buddhism by his first name, 'Gotama', and your source all states that the Puranic version of Buddha has a different mother named Anjana ! The historical founder of Buddhism, Gotama Buddha was given birth to by a woman named 'Mayadevi' . Your own link, mentions that Puranic Buddha is born in Gaya(Bodh Gaya). The historical Buddha, Gotama Buddha was born in Lumbini ! The link that you have provided does not mention anything about a 'Gotama Buddha' who was born in 'Lumbini' to a mother named 'Mayadevi;. That is, the link that you have given does not mention the historical founder of Buddhism, Gotama Buddha. All the more reason to correct the misleading article. And why are you mentioning the failed Aryan invasion theory ?

Perhaps this article which is joint agreement between Hindu and Buddhist leaders will clear up everything:https://circumsolatious.blogspot.com/2010/07/joint-declaration-buddha-is-not-9th.html I implore you to please go through this article. Bodhiupasaka (talk) 08:53, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

See also WP:TRUTH, and stick to WP:RS, instead of hammering down your personal beliefs and interpretations. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:20, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

What about in Skanda Purana in line 255-256.--Om Ram Sharma (talk) 11:28, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Please try to understand that you're interpreting a WP:PRIMARY source, which is WP:OR. See also WP:DONTGETIT. Anyway, I've added some info on the two Buddhas. This should suffice. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:35, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Let me make one thing clear. These are not my personal beliefs. These are scriptural facts. Your own links have not refuted my arguments. Instead they support them .

Please give the exact verse number of any Puranic text where it states that 'Gotama Buddha', son of Mayadevi, born in Lumbini , that is the historical founder of Buddhism is the avatar of Vishnu and I will promise not to take this discussion any further. ::::Bodhiupasaka (talk) 13:11, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

One more time: you're interpreting primary sources; at Wikipedia, we use secomdary sources, of which plenty are given. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:31, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that's true, scriptures say otherwise and also why they are using the interpretations and commentaries of foreign authors/writers as the sources here ?, would they not mind if we were to interpret the sayings of Bible based on the sources by Indian or more particularly Hindu writers/authors ? NerdyRas007 (talk) 10:14, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to add the conclusions of non-"foreign" writers as you see fit. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:43, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Old tricks

Not contributing to article improvement. Abecedare (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

user:Joshua Jonathan Still up to your old tricks, I see. First, you know full well primary sources are acceptable on wikipedia (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses for a clear statement supporting this fact). Second, we also both know that if user:Bodhiupasaka were to provide a secondary source, you would just dismiss it anyway by making something up such as it being "too old" or whatever (just like you did on the Rig Veda talk page). Third, since you so blatantly want to own this article (against WP policy, not that anyone will do anything about it), could you at least show some basic competency and fix all your errors (which I told you about after you reverted my edit, see above)? Carlduff (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2020 (UTC) Regarding "basic competence," it would be helpfull if you refer to Wiki-policies, not to Wiki-articles. WP:PRIMARY: Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[d] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Statements like "Gautama Buddha was not an avatar, because this specific text mentions another name for his mother," c.q. "Gautama Buddha was not anavatar, because this specific text refers to him as sugata, which is a name, and different from the Buddha's name," are statements of faith, and interpretations. A statement like "Some Hindus argue that the Buddha was not an avatar because [arguments above]" is a statement of fact, though this too would need a secondary source. Regarding 'fixing my errors', feel free to fix what you deem wrong, but take notice of my explanations of the faults in your edits, instead of complaining about the fact that you were corrected. Cheers, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:22, 25 April 2020 (UTC) Joshua Jonathan, you do realise that secondary sources are derived from primary ones ? The hint is in the name. You do realise that the link you have given all of us pertaining srimad Bhagavatam proves that Gotama Buddha is not the avatar of Vishnu ? Have you even read your own sources ? Bodhiupasaka (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC) You still have not given any Hindu scriptural reference that supports your argument that Gotama Buddha, historical founder of Buddhism, son of Mayadevi, is undisputably the avatar of Vishnu. Instead you try to throw distractions by citing wikipedia rules. And avoid answering that question all together . Bodhiupasaka (talk) 06:23, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Wiki-policies are not distractions, but the basic rules of Wikipedia. Please understand that this is not about Gotama Buddha, historical founder of Buddhism, son of Mayadevi, is undisputably the avatar of Vishnu but about "Gotama Buddha, the historical founder of Buddhism, is regarded as an avatar of Vishnu," as mentioned in a multitude of sources, listed in note 1. Read those policies, and stop your WP:OR and pov-pushing. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:32, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Joshua Jonathan If you were competent enough to read the WP:PRIMARY article you like throwing about, you would know it links to exactly the same article I provided. I had already corrected your mistakes but you reverted my corrections and tried to bullshit me. Seriously, if you put a fraction of the effort into actually improving this article as you do into reverting other people's edits and quacking bullshit at them as its self-appointed gatekeeper, at least it would be a semi-competent article, even for you. Carlduff (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC) Yes, to explain what a primary source is, not to encourage original research and pov-pushing. Could you now please stop your WP:TENDENTIOUS comments? Talkpages are meant to discuss improvements to the article, not as a WP:FORUM for personal frustrations. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC) user:Joshua Jonathan I have already told you how to improve the article. How many times must it be pointed out, for example, that there is no such being as 'Hiranyakashyapa', that word is a dead (i.e. red) link, and Hiranyakashipu - the proper spelling - is NOT a Rakasha? Or where in your secondary sources does it say anything about cyclones in the myths of Matsya? And so on. There's some improvements you can make right now to stop spreading misinformation to people. I can't do anything, because I already tried and got reverted by a genius that thinks the Puranas - the very texts from which the Dashavatara originates - aren't as reliable as academics' books about them! Carlduff (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

POVPUSH

@Gotitbro: regarding this revert, which removed

and some Hindus argue that there were two Buddhas, a Puranic Buddha mentioned in Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24 who was the incarnation of Vishnu, and the historical Buddha, who according to them was not an incarnation of Vishna.

what makes you think that this is an WP:POVPUSH? Although it's a minority view, for some it is important, and it is a gesture of compromise to include it in this way. Regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:16, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: The singular note suffices here, the user above who added that was clearly trying to POVPUSH the fringe theory he is trying to paste all over the article with multiple notes and additional prominence. Gotitbro (talk) 07:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Some sources

Wasn't sure what sub-section to add this is, so decided to start a new one where secondary reliable sources can be added and discussed. Hera are a couple to start:

• On Puranic Buddha being the Buddha of Buddhism: P.V. Kane discusses Vishnu avataras on pages 717-724 of his History of Dharmasastra, vol 2.2 and in particular how Buddha (the founder of Śākyadharma) was increasingly accepted as a canonical avatara of Vishnu in Puranic literature between the seventh and tenth century. Kane also notes early opposition to Buddha's inclusion from eg. Kumārila Bhaṭṭa because the texts and teachings he promulgated were contrary to Vedic teachings, which shows that there was a contemporaneous linking of the 'Buddha the Vishnu avatara' and Buddhist teachings. Kane further postulates that such absorption of Buddha/Buddhism into the Hindu canon and Puranic literature contributed to the dwindling of Buddhism in India. This reference and (at least, some of the) content may be useful additions to the article.
• The two Buddha theory: Philip C. Almond discusses the historiography of the theory that the (historical) 'Buddha who founded Buddhism' was different from 'Buddha the avatara of Vishnu in Hinduism' in considerable detail in his book The British Discovery of Buddhism (see pages 15-33 etc). Per Almond, this idea was promulgated by and popular among 19th c British scholars who were just discovering that Buddhism was not simply a sect of Hinduism. Note that Almond himself regards the two Buddha theory as incorrect. We can mention this briefly in the wikipedia article.
• Apparently, from sources removed in this edit by Gotitbro, the two Buddha theory may be seeing a modern revival in some Hindu-circles. If that can be supported by reliable sources then that too can be mentioned in the article, but if all we have is writings of Stephen Knapp and random websites then the idea would be too fringe to include IMO.

Feel free to add more sources on the subject, below. Abecedare (talk) 08:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Reading this book may help Dasavatar.--Ritij Paudel (talk) 09:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Almond is a good source; thanks! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

What's with the third paragraph in this page? It has no citations and is a dubious claim. Please look into it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.58.96.189 (talk) 11:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Boar or swine? (copied from User talk:Anubhav Srivastava)

Hello,

After I have provided the reason for the removal, you have not provided any reason for reverting back countering my position. I have pointed out the misrepresentation of Varaha Avtar which is not even in given references of the page or any other Wikipedia page regarding Varaha Avtar.

Here, let me emphasize again that there are biological differences between boar and swine and the iconography of Varaha in temples throughout the world is of Boar, not swine.

Hence, you should remove misrepresentation of Varaha Avtar by yourself and also clear your position. Thanks, Anubhav. Anubhav Srivastava (talk) 12:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Boar is the same as wild pig; wild pig being the WP:COMMONNAME, it makes sense to mention that term as well. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I reverted you because multiple reliable sources refer to the Varaha avatar as a pig (swine). Do a search on Google Books for yourself. Are they all wrong? Dāsānudāsa (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

There are many books there, but are they reliable? In most RS, "boar" is used and you may check Varaha article. Even in the scriptures, Varaha has tusks..245CMR.•^👥📜 12:55, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Wild swines have tusks, right? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:00, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The wild boar article says it's also known as the wild swine or common wild pig. A boar is a pig (suid). Dāsānudāsa (talk) 13:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I would say stick with WP:RS that are actually cited, not uncited sources. The first source (Dasavatara) doesn't use the word "swine", but instead "boar". I haven't looked into the second source since there is no link. Also, the main article page (Varaha) never mentions "swine", but says "boar" in multiple places. If there is confusion from readers where "wild swine" is needed to describe a boar, then maybe the main article page needs to be changed too, which may require discussion there. Also, there is a negative reference to "pig" found on the Varaha page, which the word "swine" might be viewed in the same negative light, hence "boar" is mostly used? Jroberson108 (talk) 14:09, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I found a copy of the second source (Majesty and Meekness) and it also doesn't use the word "swine" or "pig", but "boar". At the very least, you can just link the word "boar" to the "wild boar" page for people who don't know what it is. That should accommodate all opinions. Jroberson108 (talk) 14:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

"boar" or "wild boar" is common usage in Indian English; its synonym "wild pig" is not used. "swine" [2] has a negative connotation in English; also refers generally to a domesticated pig; rather than a boar (wild pig). Most references e.g. Britannica, [3], [4], [5] call him a Boar, not a pig. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Mohini avatar

Mohini was an Avatar of Vishnu who helped in gaining the Amrita for the gods. It's not Balarama or Budha but it is told as so. 122.162.144.17 (talk) 16:24, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Revert war

I have given constructive edits with references which are reverted without any talking. I have mentioned how different denominations view the avatars with refs. If there is any disagreement, talk here. Cheers! Nagannaa (talk) 13:38, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nagannaa: you've been reverted four times now; as far as I can see, you're trying to diminish the relevance of the common list, and pushing a less common list to the foreground. From the article (including your additions):

others – such as the Mahabharata, Sangam Literature, Shaiva Siddhanta, Adi Sankara's Prapanchasara and Yatindramatadipika, a 17th-century summary of Sri Vaishnava doctrine – give Balarama as the eighth avatar and Krishna as the ninth. The latter version is followed by some Vaishnavas who do not accept the Buddha as an incarnation of Vishnu. Though no list can be uncontroversially presented as standard, the "most accepted list found in Puranas and other texts is [...] Krishna, Buddha."

References

You're ignoring this, including the list of references in note 1, with the argument diff "Rearranged table order on most ref. standards." That's a nonsense argument, of course. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:53, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for arranging. I had rearranged counting the antiquity in descending order.

Calling it 'common' is offensive and sweeping. Like calling Protestant Xtians 'common' in a liturgical chart. Better would be to point to the exact sampradaya. Nagannaa (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Arthur Avalon and Shankara's Samrtism

Avalon, Arthur (1935). Tantrik Texts Prapancha Sara Tantra Vol. XVIII. Arthur Avalon. only states that the Prapanchasara is attributed to Shankara, among other reasons because it omits Buddha from the Dashavatara, in deviance from the prevailing tradition of Shankara's time. Avalan further notes that the attribution to Shankara is questionable, and that in another hymn attributed to Shankara the sequence with the Buddha is give. Avalon does not mention the Smarta-tradition, so this is WP:OR. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:59, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

This is reductio ad absurdum. Cheers! Nagannaa (talk) 06:06, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

If Shankara is not Smartist, then who is?

BTW Avalon's opinion does not count on Prapanchasara's authorship.

Even one can opine Shakespeare never existed! Nagannaa (talk) 06:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You added Avalon as a source diff:

Adi Sankara's Smartism;

References

Avalon also doesn't state that the Prapancha Sara gives "Balarama as the eighth avatar and Krishna as the ninth"; he only states that the Parpancha omits the Buddha. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Dalal and Mahabaratha

Dala gives the following sequence: Rama (Bhargava), Rama (Dasharathi), Satvata (Krishna or Balarama), not Balarama (8) - krishna (9). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

This inference of Dalal is from Prapanchasara - Tri-rama or the three Ramas; Bhargava, Raghu and Yadu Nagannaa (talk) 06:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Morgan

Morgan gives Balarama (8) - Buddha (9), not Balarama (8) - Krishna (9). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You removed Tamil Sangam (300 BCE - 300 CE) reference which is crucial as it is in Tamil.

Mahabharata (3102 BCE - 1000 BCE) as well

These two are the most ancient with the latter being contemporaneous. Nagannaa (talk) 06:15, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

All the authors upto Shankara (700- 800 CE) opined Balarama as the eighth avatara.

After 800 Bhagavatism, Madhvism and other northern sects assimilated Buddha and Rishabhadeva to woo the converts into their denominations.

This is commonplace knowledge if we look at the ages.

This is also the reason for the decline of the two Nastika religions. Nagannaa (talk) 06:26, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Shankara's Smartism and Saiva Siddhanta are considered to be unwelcoming and default denominations in which only lapsed converts are reinducted.

All other Vaishnava sects still accept converts. Nagannaa (talk) 06:29, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The Mahabaratha was definitely not written between 3102-1000 BCE; that's a WP:FRINGE point of view. You may be right that All the authors upto Shankara (700- 800 CE) opined Balarama as the eighth avatara., and that would definitely be worthy of inclusion, but it needs to be sources. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

This age is consensual. So are you another Wendy Doniger, Audrey Truschke to post date all non Abrahamic works? Nagannaa (talk) 06:41, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Consensual maybe in popular religious views, but here at Wikipedia we present scholarly views and datings. To come back to All the authors upto Shankara (700- 800 CE) opined Balarama as the eighth avatara, the Puranas were written between the 3rd and 10th century CE; and Avalon indicates that at the time of Shankara the inclusion of the Buddha was well accepted, so syour statement seems to be incorrect. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:56, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Sangam literature

No English source has been provided. I did indeed remove a Tamil-language source, "P202212". www.tamilvu.org. Retrieved 2023-09-12., diff; at the English Wikipedia we use WP:RS English sources. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:27, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

So how does quote Tamil Sangam sources if they are not available in English? Can you help?

https://www.tamilvu.org/courses/degree/p202/p2022/html/p202212.htm

Tamil Virtual Univ. is run by the TamilNadu government and this page is on the Sangam Ettutokai texts quoting the last nine avataras bareing the first - matsya Nagannaa (talk) 06:39, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm reading the page, and trying to understand the context. Tirumal was a Tamil deity, but as an epitath the name came to be used for Vishnu, right? I can't extract a date from this site, or clues for it. What does "is one of the eight books Paribadal" mean? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Buddha and Rishabadeva (first Tirthankara) were definitely not inducted until Adi Shankara. (800 CE)

Bhagavata Purana (1000 CE), the scripture of Bhagavatism inducts both in a syncretic way but with clauses.

That Sakyamuni Buddha is not the real Buddha

and Rishbhadeva was a Avadhuta, not the founder of Jainism. Nagannaa (talk) 07:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Ah: Eight Anthologies. "... the scholarship so far suggested that the earliest layers were composed sometime between the 1st century BCE and 2nd century CE, while the last layers were completed between 3rd and 5th century CE." And Paripāṭal: " 3rd or 4th century A.D." Okay, the question of when the Dashavatara developed, and when and how the Buddha came to be included, is indeed relevant. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:43, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The Sangam considered Buddhist and Jain sources as 'Pura-samayam' or alien atheisms and accepted only texts adhering to Aha-samayam or native nature cults (called Hinduism later)

Much like Kami Shinto vs. Buddhism in Japan's Meiji era Shinbutsu Bunri

Chinese folk, Confucius, Taoism vs. Buddhism in China's anti Buddhist age Nagannaa (talk) 07:27, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The Nayanmars and Alvars who were the successors of the Sangam age were rabid against the Pura Samayams not just because they were alien, but because they were anti nature and globalist. Nagannaa (talk) 07:29, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

In the major organised denominations which are inherited by birth, Srautism, Smartism, Saiva Siddhanta and Orthodox Sri Vaishnavism , Buddha and Rishabhadeva are rather seen as enemies.

While northern Bhagavatist cults inducted converts and reconverts by inducting the two.

The remaining Buddhists were converted to Islam (750-1800) in the subcontinent. Nagannaa (talk) 07:34, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

"“Hey, you’re just a pathetic nature-spirit! I am the creator and destroyer of all beings, the paramount Lord of the Three Worlds!”"

https://theprint.in/opinion/the-pallava-dynasty-was-turning-toward-shaivism-buddhists-took-immediate-note-and-strung-up-a-narrative-where-shiva-is-immature-and-trailokyavijaya-emerges-supreme/1655737/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CHey%2C%20you%E2%80%99re%20just%20a%20pathetic%20nature%2Dspirit!%20I%20am%20the%20creator%20and%20destroyer%20of%20all%20beings%2C%20the%20paramount%20Lord%20of%20the%20Three%20Worlds!%E2%80%9D

You can see the approach of Buddhism on Hinduism. Can be read as pagan vs. missionary Nagannaa (talk) 07:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Dashavatara#Buddha: "The Buddha was included as one of the avatars of Vishnu under Bhagavatism by the Gupta period between 330 and 550 CE." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

However, there is no evidence, either textual, nor physical for a Gupta period assimilation Nagannaa (talk) 09:26, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

By the 8th century CE, the Buddha was included as an avatar of Vishnu in several Puranas. This assimilation is indicative of the Hindu ambivalence toward the Buddha and Buddhism, and there is also a tradition that there were two Buddhas. According to this tradition, the first was the ninth avatar of Vishnu, while the second was the historical Buddha. Conversely, Vishnu has also been assimilated into Sinhalese Buddhist culture, and Mahayana Buddhism is sometimes called Buddha-Bhagavatism. By this period, the concept of Dashavatara was fully developed.

- In the same article. Assimilation of Buddha as an avatara is NOT universal. It is a feature of Northern Bhagavatists, while all other denominations disagree. Nagannaa (talk) 09:29, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Mention of texts in table

@Nagannaa: you reinserted diff] some of the texts in the table; this is unnecessary, as those texts are already mentioned in the alinea above. You also reinserted a Tamil-text source; at the English Wikipedia we use English WP:RS. What's more, this source does not mention that Shaiva Siddhanta follows the Paripatal, or this specific list. And you blindly copied the <!-- --> make-up, which means that the source wasn't visible. Next, you added the wrong source to the text "Mahabaratha (one of the lists). And, as also already explained, Avalon does not say that the Prapanchasara gives "Balrama, Krishna"; Avalon only says that this text omits the Buddha. It's also not clear from your insertion what exact ly is disputed. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I posted 'disputed' as you insisted on it. Otherwise I have read both the Sanskrit & Eng. versions. Nagannaa (talk) 10:24, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The attribution of it's authorship to Shankara is disputed; but the way you put it, it seemed disputed that the Prapanchasara gives this specific list (which, anyway, is not what Avalon says). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

"Shankara's smarta tradition"

No need to add his name here; already enough info here. Besiides, it's tbee smarta-tradition that regards Shankara as it's founder, but that's probably a later understanding; the smarta-tradition pre-dates Shankara. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Saiva Siddhanta

I have removdd diff "Saiva Siddhanta (follows earlier Sangam literature)"; it's unsourced, and therefor unveriable, while according to Shaiva Siddhanta, "It draws primarily on the Tamil devotional hymns written by Shaiva saints from the 5th to the 9th century, known in their collected form as Tirumurai." And Tirumurai says: "Tirumurai in anthology supersedes Sangam literature, which is predominantly secular in nature," so this statement is disputable. Besides, there's no explanation what the implication is of "follows earlier Sangam literature." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

primarily - note

The Periyapuranam lists 74 saints of which 11 are 'Togai Adiyar' or 'Orders of saints'.

In this come Kapilar, Bharanar and the 'Poi Adimaiyilla Pulavars' or the unbound bards who followed the Sangam at Madurai presided by Sokkanathar himself.

So the entire corpus is holy in Saiva Siddhanta Nagannaa (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I trust you're right on that, but the point is that you want to make the following statement:

1. The Shaiva Siddantha tradition gives Balarama-Krishna

2. In this, it follows the Sangam literature,

3. which also gives Balarama-Krishna.

Given the fact that all denominations but ISKCON are unsourced, we can leave statement 1 unsourced for now. But for statement 2 and 3, sources would be most welcome. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to provide a source diff, but Shiva Purana, Part 4: Vayaviya Samhita: Chapter 30, Verses 56-58 and Chapter 31, verses 134-136, J.L.Shastri (1950). Siva Purana - English Translation - Part 4 of 4.</ref> is useless; chapter 30 goes to verse 53, chapter 31 goes to verse 100. It's a primary source; you probably won't find a statement there that "Shaiva Siddhanta follows this specific list of the Dashavatara." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes. It does. Shiva Purana is the basic Purana of Saiva Siddhanta. Nagannaa (talk) 05:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Check the source, will you? I checked again; those verses are not in the source. Let alone that non-existing verses can support the statement that Saiva Siddantha follows Balarama-Krishna. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:57, 15 September 2023 (UTC) / update Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Krishna and Jagannatha

This edit diff, edit-summary "Krishna and Jagannatha are synonymous (as the avatara of Vishnu)" merged the Balarama-Krishna and Balarama-Jagannatha columns. This difference is a regional difference, as explained by Leyden (see the notes at the end); please stick to it, instead of harmonizing various traditions. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 02:52, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Jagannatha is not a regional name. It is a pan Indian name for Krishna. Puri is a temple for the siblings. It is common knowledge. Why do we need a whiteman for everything? Nagannaa (talk) 06:00, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

It is even used in Sri Lanka:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sridharan_Jeganathan Nagannaa (talk) 06:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

In Kashmiri Pandits:

https://searchkashmir.org/2018/12/jagannath-sathu-on-plight-of-pandits.html Nagannaa (talk) 06:07, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Should identify the key early narratives

This article has too much discussion of the various *lists* of avatars, but not enough about their *stories*: which are the earliest texts that tell the avatars' stories in the form familiar today? Is it the Bhagavata Purana? Llajwa (talk) 14:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC) Llajwa (talk) 14:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Wrong Buddha

The Dashavatars does not include the founder of Buddhism(Gotama Buddha). It instead includes Sugata Buddha or just Lord Buddha who is a completely different person, being born in a different place(Gaya) as opposed to Kapilavastu and also having a different mother(Anjana) as opposed to Mayadevi. This Puranic Buddha is said to have been born into a family of Brahmins as opposed to the Shakyans that Buddhism's founder, Gotama Buddha was born into.

Unfortunately the Wiki Article, especially in the avatar's description section wrongly states the founder of Buddhism , Gotama Buddha to be one of the Dashavatars. Hoping someone would correct this inaccuracy.

Bodhiupasaka (talk) 07:39, 22 January 2024 (UTC)