Talk:Aran jumper

Meaning of the cables?

I know the various cables knitted into these arans have meanings and names. There is the saxon braid, which represents strength; the luckenbooth medallion, which represents love; the standard braid, which represents longevity; the basket weave, which represents a bountiful harvest (of fish); and that diamond shaped one, which represents money. I recall that the braids picked for an aran were dependent on the wish of the wife for their husband while he was out to sea. So these sweaters not only represented a great deal of work, but a great deal of thought regarding the well being of the family (even the wool used was raw or partially raw, so that the aran would be water resistant against the sea-spray). I don't know if the meaning behind the cables should have its own section or not, but it seems important. Can anyone find a source of the meanings of the cables? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.59.249 (talk) 00:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

A really good reference, and one which is not listed here, is Alice Starmore's well-researched book Aran Knitting. Aran jumpers were not traditional fisherman's garments, though some of the patterns likely came from the gansey tradition. She comes to the conclusion that the meanings assigned were mostly made up by people who wanted to romanticize the origin.

I'll edit when I find my book.

24.18.228.55 (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Although it says that there are no longer as many hand knitters of these garments, my Mother, who died last year had been knitting these since I was a baby, a half century ago, for assorted businesses and wool shops around the West of Scotland. (She also knitted Fair Isle, Lopi, etc.) Much of my younger days were spent wearing such jumpers, hats, trousers, etc. The weight of some of these garments was quite notable at times, as was the feel of the wool against bare skin.2.101.151.84 (talk) 11:10, 19 May 2016 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Aran/Arran

I'm sorry, but I think the reference to Arran has no place here. These sweaters are from the Aran Islands, off Ireland, not the Isle of Arran off Scotland. That a few knitwear manufacturers/pattern makers have jumped on a marketing opportunity born from the confusing names and started to make and sell "Arran sweaters" that look like Aran sweaters does not change that.

See this article which states that Arran is not the sweater Island (granted, it's on another wiki so not a reference as such). There is no mentions of sweaters on the Isle of Arran page, but lots on the Aran Islands page. I am not going to remove it to-day because I would like other input, but I am going to remove it if no-body objects. Abbeyvet 22:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Arran is continually being added back as one of the places where Aran knitting originated. It simply didn't, and the references given in support of the contention that it did either mis-spell Aran as Arran, while obviously speaking of a place in Ireland, or are links to a commercial site selling 'Arran sweaters', which appears designed to cash in on the fact that this mis-spelling is common. Please make a coherent arguement for adding a reference to Arran if you wish to include it. Abbeyvet 01:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I am staggered at the amount of energy that has been spent on editing and re-editing this article. In the spirit of this *cough* please allow me to wade in with my two pence. I'm sorry it's so lengthy, but I'd rather say everything I have to say once, thoroughly, and then we can deal with anything anyone disagrees with, without endless to-ing and fro-ing. I sincerely hope the several of hours I've spent on this will (help to) close off this question as I don't doubt we'd all much rather be writing useful information about cables than fighting over a small point of national pride. Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's tell other people about the Aran/Arran confusion

Adding info to Isle of Arran and Aran Islands

I have knitted in Scotland for the last 20 years and had never realised that 'Arran' knitting was actually 'Aran' knitting. Google and wikipedia tell me I'm not the only one who hadn't heard this interesting piece of information. I think it is worth recording. I have added a small note to both the Arran Islands and Isle of Aran articles, referencing an article in The Telegraph.. I *sigh* added these before I read the history of this page and saw how bizarrely contentious it is. Please discuss *here* if anyone disagrees with my edits on those pages. Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This disagreement is relevant to this page!

I have added an 'Aran versus Arran' section, where we can describe the confusion. I have added my Telegraph quote and put in one of the references that has been previously edited out and in and out of the page. Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

References

Yet another reference - this time an actual book

I have added a reference to a scholarly book on the subject of textiles and their origin and history. I don't see why this can't stand on its own as a definitive source. If anyone can find me a quote on the 'Arran' side of the debate from researchers/authors that also earn their living from being experts in this field, do please mention it. Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, The Reader's Digest (1991). Complete Guide to Needlework. London: The Reader's Digest Association Ltd. pp. p455. ISBN 0-276-00224-5. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help) agrees that it's from Aran, but I haven't added this to the main text as it'd be childish and pointless of me to labour the point, when one decent reference should do the job. I just thought I'd mention it in case someone does disagree with my original source. Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

References repeatedly removed and re-added

These are not in the article at time of writing, but in case someone sees fit to put them back in, and given I've just read them all, I may as well discuss them. Please don't put them back onto the main page without reading my comments, and responding to them on this talk page. Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Fionnuala Cullen. What's In Your Pot of Gold?. BBC. Retrieved on 19, 2007. Retrieved on February 2007.

The only mention of Arran jumpers is "Another way of looking at Irish fashion is the most famous home made Arran jumper. This is just basically a woollen frumpy jumper that your granny sold to the neighbours and gave to the grandchildren for Christmas, birthdays, and first days of school." I am unconvinced as to the research done by Ms Cullen as it doesn't seem she's that interested in the subject, and I can well believe she has made the same mistake as many of us dedicated knitters.

Can we agree to drop this reference as not based on thorough research? Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Sweater Talk - Over 15 years of wool industry knowledge. Woolovers. Retrieved on 19, 2007. Retrieved on February 2007.

There are 23 instances of 'Aran' and two instances of 'Arran' on this page. The mention of 'Arran' is: "It is hard to think of any sweater that is more instantly recognisable than the Aran sweater; it intricately woven patterns and handmade ruggedness are unmistakably Aran. It seems no coincidence that the Arran islands on the coast of Scotland from where the Arran wool originates are also well known for the famous Arran Sweater." I have honestly no clue what this sentence means, but the start of the article says "The Aran sweater takes its name from the islands from where it originated, untold generations ago. They say that necessity is the mother of invention and nothing is more of a necessity than a nice warm Aran sweater in a place like the Aran Islands."

Can we agree to drop this one, based on the fact it supports 'Aran' (as does my World Textiles citation), and is a commercial site with comparatively little information on technique or history? Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Ed Hawco (September 2006). The Lost Arran Sweater. Retrieved on 19, 2007. Retrieved on February 2007.

This blog says: "This post was originally titled “The Lost Arran Sweater” – Arran with two ‘r’s. I have recently learned that Aran sweaters are not from Arran, Scotland, but are from Aran, Ireland. This might explain why I had so much trouble finding a nice “Arran” sweater in Scotland! I have updated this post to use the correct spelling."

Can we agree it was appropriate for me to move this reference to the section on the Aran/Arran confusion? I think this is a good example. Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• Arran Knitting Pattern Company. The Arran Sweater. Arran Knitting Pattern Company. Retrieved on 19, 2007. Retrieved on February 2007.

This company is based on the Isle of Arran. Although the website doesn't actually claim this style of knitting is from Arran and not Aran, it does say, "The McBride Gansey is best knitted in Softspun Shetland Wool [...] The design is adapted from a traditional Arran fishing gansey, predominately knitted in basket stitch."

Personally, I think the website author is wrong, based on everything else I've read, but even besides this, he/she definitely has a vested interest in saying Arran over Aran. I hope we can agree that where possible, we should use unbiased sources.

Can we agree to drop this reference not least of which because the source is biased by his/her running a business from the Isle of Arran? Justinep 21:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

References

Third opinion

• I am providing a third opinion as per WP:THIRD. - I have looked over the discussion and sources and believe that the current way the article is phrased is correct. Consensus and sourced material leads one to believe that the sweater originated and is traditionally made in the Aran Islands. Smee 23:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for providing that opinion. The Arran reference is back now. I am standing aside from this. I believe I have done my best to address this inaccuracy, but the editor who added it seems to take its removal quite personally and I really don't want to get into an arguement about it. Abbeyvet 12:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If that is the case then I will take this article off of my watchlist - Oh wait! Actually I won't just yet because first it might be a nice idea to add a free-image public domain picture of a sweater... Smee 12:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

I'll take a photo of a sweater and put into the public domain. I can't do it till to-morrow, but will upload it then. I hate letting this go, because it is leaving a glaring inaccuracy on the page. Should I persist? Isn't it better to leave it to others if you have already been involved with repreated removals like that? I am not very well versed in the etiquette - the dilemma with being non-confrontational and insuring factual accuracy? Abbeyvet 19:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Added image, own work, released to public domain. Smee 20:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm back, with a heavy heart, seeing the same incorrect information on this page - there is no credible evidence that these jumpers were spontaneously created in two places at once. How often must we repeat this? I've reverted the page again, but like you, Abbeyvet, I also don't know the etiquette of this. I figure, however, that if I've been away from the article for a year, I can't be accused of being particularly confrontational.

Actually, not only do I not know the etiquette, I don't know the process. Do we put the dispute notice back up? Do we ask for the page to be protected from anonymous edits?! I note some of us are doing our edits under our usernames and not anonymously. It seems utterly ridiculous to ask for a page on knitting to be protected, but I'm starting to to wonder. Justinep (talk) 23:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Aran and Arran - vote

I want to see whether we can come to a consensus on this. Can we have vote on whether the article should should indicate the sweater comes from "either Aran or Arran", or from "just Aran"? Indicate which one you support by which putting "Either Aran or Arran" or "Just Aran" followed by any supporting arguments/points etc. and signing with your user name.

• Just Aran. I am persuaded by the references found by Justinep and others that indicate the swaeter's origin is Aran, not Arran. I'm not persuaded by the "Arran Knitting Pattern Company" link (not convincing at all - I suspect it's just a marketing ploy).-- A bit iffy 13:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Just Aran I have searched long, hard and extensively and been unable to find any credible reference from a non-commercial source to support the contention that there is a separate/concurrent origin in Arran. There is considerable documentary evidence of its origin and development and cultural place on Aran, no similar body of documentation appears to exist in relation to any style of knitting on Arran. Abbeyvet 16:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Just Aran - I as well agree with A bit iffy that the references listed are persuasive and reputable. Smee 21:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
• Just Aran. Like Abbeyvet, I have taken the time to look around and failed to find anything that supports "Arran". I am completely and utterly unconvinced that the Isle of Arran has anything to do with this type of knitting. I have yet to see any argument, let alone a cogent argument that supports "Arran". I honestly can't understand how the references and arguments we have provided leave any room for doubt, and I am most heartened that A bit iffy and Smee have stepped up to the plate to help mediate, and that the effort Abbeyvet and I have put in has been sufficient to convince them. Now we just need to convince the person who keeps editing this article without attempting to justify why. Justinep 22:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is irrelevant to fact

I'd like to point out that facts override any vote on consensus in this matter.

I'd also like to point out that I have provided references which prove what I have always, personally, known - that the sweater has two sources, which the three or four people involved in removing my added information, seem to be ignoring.

Another thing to point out is, while there are sources which are "persuasive and reputable" and that there is "considerable documentary evidence of its origin and development and cultural place on Aran", I have never - not once - contested that the Aran Islands is a source for this type of garment. I'm afraid several editors here seem to be under a false impression.

To Justinep:

Thank you for pointing this vote out to me, despite my opinion on the matter. I have to say, the article existed for quite some time with the additional material I provided intact and survived a seemingly irrational bid twice before to remove it.

You say you failed to find anything that supports "Arran", even though I provided you with some things. You are not going to convince me of anything other than what I have known since I was a little boy, I'm afraid.

You have, I'm afraid, told a bit of a lie on this talk page, when you state I have edited the article "without attempting to justify why". Firstly, I was under the impression that Wikipedia was "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". Secondly, I made quite wordy 'justifications' for my edits in my edit summaries througout the course of our conflict.

I'm sure Ed appreciated you (or perhaps Abbeyvet) advising him, or perhaps unwittingly misinforming him, to change his blog entry. To be honest, there isn't a terrible amount of material on this garment available on the internet, and I shouldn't really have used a Blogsite as a cited source. My intention was merely to provide context of course - the man had been in Scotland, and had been looking for an Arran sweater. Presumably he had heard the source of Arran jumpers was Arran in Scotland, from somewhere. I think we can agree however, that using a blogsite as a reference is not a good idea.. particularly as someone from here has quite obviously had recent communication with the owner of it!

That Arran sweaters have come about due to a "marketing opportunity" exploited by one, or a few, textile companies is something I feel would have to be proven. As I stated - I have always known the style of jumper to have two geographic sources, from the 1970s when my father bought an Arran sweater in Scotland while we were on holiday there, and then explained to me about the two similarly-named islands (island group in the case of the Irish islands). Granted, neither myself, nor my father, are valid sources for Wikipedia in this context.. but I'm just explaining here on the talk page something that people perhaps more removed from Scotland may not have heard in their own childhoods.

I appreciate that a compromise was attempted, via an additional sub-section in the article. However, I felt that this was out-of-context and biased.

The source Woolovers (what a pleasant pun by the way!) makes it clear that "the famous Arran Sweater" does indeed exist.

Lynn Gray Ross of the Arran Knitting Pattern Company is likely to be an authoritative source to be honest. The woman appears to have strong connections with both Arran and Galway, having taught textiles in the latter location. She clearly states: "The knitting pattern combines moss stitch, cables and patterns from traditional fishermen’s sweaters, known as ganseys, to represent the sea and the mountains of Arran."

I honestly don't know what the problem is. Clearly, no matter which way one looks at it, Arran Sweaters exist. -- Mal 00:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Mal, you're right in saying fact ought to override voting, but sometimes there can be genuine uncertainty and one has to resort to voting to establish what the fact should be. In this case, there is overwhelming opinion that "Arran" sweaters have no place in this article.

I spent an hour in my local library yesterday to try to find mentions of "Arran" sweaters. I was unable to find any. I looked up Arran in various books (unfortunately they are not too extensive where I live in Brighton), and there was no mention of any knitwear industry. Essentially the industry on Arran centres on tourism and leisure (golf is a big thing there, apparently), and related things like educational parties viewing the distinctive geology on the island. Also, I looked in what knitwear books I could find (including one by, improbably, a former Bishop of Leicester!), and there was no mention of "Arran" knitting - just "Aran".

I have replaced your reference sources with a request for citation. This is because your two sources are from commercial enterprises that have a vested interest in promoting the notion of "Arran" sweaters and so should not be relied on.

Also, I have changed the "disputed" notice at the top of the article to say "both Aran and Arran" to reflect your point that you're not disputing whether "Aran" sweaters exist (sorry for the misunderstanding). I decided to leave this matter as disputed for the time being because of my misunderstanding and to give you the chance to come up with other sources. If you (or anyone else) doesn't come up with a credible, independent source in the next few days, I will remove "Arran" from the article, and reinstate the small section "Aran" versus "Arran" jumpers as there is obviously still the potential for confusion.

--A bit iffy 10:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Does it help any if I mention that I live two miles from the coast as the crow flies, and it is almost the closest part of the coast to Arran, (Scotland), and my Mother spent years as a commercial handknitter, making Aran pullovers and cardigans? (She did Fair Isle & Lopi too...:-D) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.1.85 (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Make "Arran" a separate article...

• Perhaps there should be a different article for Arran Sweater, or Arran Sweater (Scotland) ... Smee 15:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

There's no need: any article about the Arran sweater would be more or less a duplicate of the Aran sweater article - they are both names for the same thing. However, there should probably be a redirect right enough. -- Mal 22:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The name of the jumper is Aran, from the Aran islands off the coast of Galway. I am Irish and grew up with these jumpers, they are a part of our culture and there is still a strong market for them here and internationally. I can see how there can be some confusion as there have always been strong links between Scotland and Ireland with people travelling back and forwards for work and trade and many Irish moving and settling in Scotland at times of unrest. However Aran jumpers originate from Ireland, Scotland is more famous for Fair Isle. GeraldineTN (talk) 11:56, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

PS The secret is in the name, there is no such place as the 'Aran Islands of the coast of Scotland'. The Aran Islands are off the coast of Galway Ireland. The Isle of Arran is off the coast of Scotland. Simple geography that needs to be corrected in this article if you want it to be taken seriously. GeraldineTN (talk) 12:51, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Page title needs to be changed

It's an excellent article but it clearly mistitled. Aran jumpers are known as such in Ireland, which is a mainly English speaking country. You yanks already have the jumper page called sweaters! In Ireland only a tourist shop would refer to a jumper as a sweater as the article states. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordjaysus (talk • contribs) 22:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this; it looks plain odd for an item which would invariably be called a jumper where it originated to be changed to a sweater just for U.S. readers; the word “sweater” is known and used in the U.K., I’ll grant you that, but not in conjunction with the garment in question, and certainly not as part of a phrase used as a name for it. Imagine if there was an article on the “Cowboy titfer” or “basketball san’sheen” just because a titfer is another word for a hat, and san’sheen (or jimmies or gu’ies) is a well known word in Scotland for athletic footwear…? 81.178.162.93 (talk) 17:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Still no action on this - is there a way to request a name change? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordjaysus (talk • contribs) 03:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments and have moved the article to 'jumper'. 'Aran sweater' will of course redirect here. Cooke (talk) 10:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Aran jumper/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

It's actually pretty good right now (could use more cites) but it absolutely needs a picture. /blahedo (t) 02:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Substituted at 01:09, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

The Aran Jumper does not come from Scotland but from the Aran Island off the coast of Galway Ireland. Aran jumpers are still made there today and there is a large international market for them. GeraldineTN (talk) 11:14, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

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