Talk:Calala Island

Island name change

It is unclear what the name of the island (i.e. the geographical feature) is. There are indications that the island is or was called Lime Cay (Isla Cayo Lime) - not to be confused with the Jamaican island of the same name. Calala Island appears be be the name of the resort on the island. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 08:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

The evidence that the island is called Calala is unanimous in my opinion. The local press such as La Prensa (1), El 19 (2) and El Nuevo Diario (3) all call it Calala Island. The TV station owned by the President's corporate arm, TN8, refers to it here as Calala (4). Lucy Valenti, Director General of Tourism and Investment Nicaragua, refers to it extensively in this interview as Calala (5). Condé Nast Traveler (6), Forbes (7) and British newspapers all call it Calala (8).

However, I do think you have a point. There was clearly a name change in the previous decades, but it is hard to prove when this took place. If we can find information of when the name changed (I'm actively looking for this), I wouldn't stand in anyone's way to add that information as it should be in there.

My problem is the removal of the pirating and also royal content. You stated in the comments that pirate activity on Calala Island is spurious, but surely there comes a point where it is evident pirating was rife in this part of the world so requires a mention? Bluefields is the nearest town to the west and was named after a pirate and nearby Corn Islands were a hideout for Captain Morgan from my research. Logically, this means we need to reference pirating in some way no?

Lastly, you’ve removed the reference that the ninth in line to the British throne (in context Prince Harry is 6th), Princess Eugenie, became engaged while vacationing on the Island. There have been yet further coverage this week of that event due to her upcoming wedding. Which may I add, even has its own Wikipedia article.

@KiteWings:. Many thanks for your help trying to find details about the name change. I found some blogs and it seems that various map services call the island at those coordinates Lime Cay. Also, I found the original "for sale" ad for this island - the images do imply this is the same island. However, without a direct link, this is all spurious and not for main space unless a reliable source linking the two is found.

The reason why I removed the piracy claims falls into the same category and follows on from the abandoned draft talk: there are no reliable sources directly implicating Calala Island with piracy. The only sources seem to be the highly commercial advertorial sources or tabloids, which are sources that would normally be discounted in order to ensure the article is not promotional.

Again, the Eugenie claim falls into that very category. The main articles don't mention the place. The only sources are tabloids. We wouldn't normally use those. I wonder what encyclopaedic purpose this statement would serve other than creating "interest" in the island - as opposed to informing. This sits on the border to promoting the resort IMO. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 17:10, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

@KiteWings: I think I have some credible information that the island is officially called Lime Cay. Data from the US National Geospatial Intelligence Agency calls the place at those coordinates Lime Cay. This also fits the Google Maps data. I have made a reference accordingly. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 08:49, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Just reverted the recent move as it is completely unjustified. The US National Geospatial Intelligence Agency states clearly "no claims are made regarding the accuracy of Cayo Lime information contained here." The other two references are poorly written blogs. Some interesting points have been raised about its history, but further up the talk page you can see that there is various Nicaraguan press, including the Director General of Tourism even calls it Calala Island in the video I sent. If we cannot include Eungenie's wedding or the pirating past, I cannot see how we can retitle an article and talk about a greek businessman purchasing the island from nothing more than personal blogs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KiteWings (talk • contribs) 12:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

@KiteWings: Unfortunately, I disagree. A search directly on the National Geospatial Intelligency Agency here confirms this data. As do the Cebuano and Swedish Wikipedia articles that I had linked - although we'd only look at this indicatively as notability rules etc may differ in other Wikipedia projects. Interestingly, the Geospacial site does not know Calala Island at all. Again, indicatively, it seems there are not Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo, etc results for Calala Island before 2017 which is the year the hotel opened. In terms of references, there is no consensus amongst Wikipedia editors if Buzzfeed is reliable or not, so it would not necessarily be correct to exclude that. The case of the Greek investor has been published elsewhere and I believe there are also sources linking to the court case, so there is no doubt about this. Many of the sources presented in the original version of the article are not neutral and I would dispute them. Let me go through them individually:

(1) Daily Mail - This is highly likely an advertorial from a press pack. This does not establish notability as it is not independent or reliable. Daily Mail is generally not an accepted source and should be removed

(2) another advertorial - this should be removed

(3) The Sun - is not considered reliable and is yet another advertorial from the same source as the above. This should be removed

(4) Mention in passing. Some promo elements. Does not support notability, but ok if used carefully

(5) Does not mention Calala at all. Does not establish notability, but ok as reference about the Pearl Cays in general

(6) as before

(7) as before, though this is just a ResearchGate abstract and I have no access to the full article

(8) this article does not mention Calala at all. Just a general discussion about tourism in Nicaragua.

(9) celeb gossip. Not encyclopaedic.

(10) Travel review (ish). Pictures delivered by the hotel. Borderline.

(11) Travel review. Pictures delivered by the hotel. Borderline.

(12) Mention in passing. Picks up some of the marketing speak of the resort, NiCaribbean. Independence questionable.

(13) Nothing about Calala, but ok for the statement about Bluefields

So on the basis of this, I'm not even sure where this article is heading. Is it about the hotel? If so, then there's not enough independent material. It may be possible to convince me that an award winning hotel (source!) may be notable, but then it needs much better sources that are not written or influenced by their publicist. As geographical feature, the place may be notable. However, the most reliable source here (the Geospatial Survey) indicates a different name. So I'd go by this. I'm sure the US Military does not copyedit PR.

Of course, I'd also like to review your additional sources, which are not part of the article, but have been provided on this talk page

(Talk 1) Quite "magical" language. A cute review with quite a few cute marketing words. Hmmm...

(Talk 2) Treasure hunts, free flowigng Champagne, quotes by the owner. Not sure...

(Talk 3) Definitely a press pack. Same as 1-3 in the article

(Talk 4) I'd say this probably underlines my argument that "Calala" is the name of the hotel which then somehow got unofficially retro transferred to the entire island.

(Talk 5) looks like a gossip article. Not really suitable for an encyclopaedia.

(Talk 6) as (4) above

(Talk 7) another promo piece. Note, Forbes Contributor articles are not considered reliable.

I shall reinstate my edits and rename the article. I'm happy to open this conversation to a broader group of people at WP:DRN - which may be helpful. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 14:24, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Having spent some time reading up on article moves, to me the move to Lime Cay from Calala is a controversial move without consensus, no? Therefore at the very least, you should be following this process? I've therefore moved it back to Calala Island, opened up a move discussion below and also asked for assistance on the DRN as you requested, but also going to put something on the administrators noticeboard so we can have input from multiple editors to get to the bottom of this.

As for the points you have mentioned, there is no doubt there has been a name change. I'm not disputing that and in fact you might remember I added something to the Draft:Calala_Island article early on, stating it was previously called Lime Cay. But ironically you stated on the talk page you were unhappy with content about the name change. As for the references, feel free to give feedback as it will help construct a better article. But I can't see how you can criticize every single reference, yet add two references from "nicanet.org" and "La Voz del Sandinismo." How you can criticize three of Nicaragua's biggest newspapers and then add those two poor Nicaraguan references? Makes no sense to me if I'm brutally honest.

You've also said that the Swedish Wikipedia and Cebuano "confirm" its called Lime Cay, but who edited those articles? Again, you can't criticize large newspapers and tabloids then pass off a crowd-sourced article as proof?

The Google Maps and US are an interesting one and something I will cover more in my argument for the Calala move in the move discussion below.

• Comment: It does sound to me like the name "Calala Island" is marketing for the resort. The wording of the article is also somewhat promotional in places. @KiteWings:, could you please confirm whether you have a conflict of interest here? Are you in any way connected with the resort, its owner, or any travel or marketing company? Deb (talk) 15:53, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 12 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: WITHDRAWN. KiteWings (talk) 20:13, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

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Calala Island → Lime Cay (Nicaragua) – Ongoing discussions between myself and Jake Brockman have not resulted in concensus on the titling of this article. I've nominated this on Jake Brockman's behalf as I feel a wider discussion about the titling of this article is needed. It was created under Calala Island, so have therefore started the discussion under the title where it was created (not sure, but think that would be protocoyl). There is also more discussion on Draft:Calala Island for those who want to read the full dialogue. KiteWings (talk) 18:44, 12 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Iffy★Chat -- 09:58, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

I believe the article's title of Calala Island is correct and just, reasoning is below.

• There is no debate that this was once called Lime Cay, because it was. In recent years (how soon is up for debate), the island has been called Calala Island and the Lime Cay titling has been dropped. This is no different from when Mexico used to be called New Spain, or Belize as British Honduras. It is clear that the name of the island has changed, it isn't a discussion of when this took place.
• As I mentioned above, the evidence that the island is called Calala is unanimous in my opinion. The local press such as La Prensa (1), El 19 (2) and El Nuevo Diario (3) all call it Calala Island. The TV station owned by the President's corporate arm, TN8, refers to it here as Calala (4). Lucy Valenti, Director General of Tourism and Investment Nicaragua, refers to it extensively in this interview as Calala (5). Condé Nast Traveler (6), Forbes (7) and British newspapers all call it Calala (8). There are also more references than this locally, but I felt this was more than enough.
• The simple question I ask, is do you think all of these newspapers would print something completely inaccurate? Because not one refers to Lime Cay. The term Calala Resort, Calala Hotel, Calala Villas isn't used either, they all call it "Island." I presume all the journalists understand what an island is, so the fact none of these have used resort, hotel or villa, demonstrates to me its current title.
• Jake Brockman brought up the argument above that Google and other map-based resources have this recorded as Lime Cay. Google has made numerous errors over the years on Google maps, I'm happy to find numerous references for this, but I'm sure every editor has seen similar coverage to me. I actually remember similar platforms such as Apple Maps, getting ridiculed in the media when they were launched for the number of errors. Added to that, Googles searches under each infobox has a feedback option to correct mistakes. Surely that demonstrates their data contains inaccuracies and shouldn't be used as proof.

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

LimeCay comment

Calala Island is a resort built on Lime Cay. Lime Cay is the name of the Island, and has not changed since it was entered into the registry.

The island is owned by Alex Appleby, a British Citizen, who has been the owner of the island since 2005. She is the registered owner in the registry at Bluefields. Tim Wickham rents the right to run a business on the island from the local Territorial Authority. He and his family did not purchase the island and have never owned the island.

When Mr Wickham built the resort on Lime Cay, the island was not abandoned, and had been continually occupied since the ownership changed into the hands of Alex Appleby, who had a caretaker living on the island continuously.

Island name change and private ownership of the island

Alex Appleby is able to prove ownership of the island with title deeds in her name. Mr Wickham does not have title deeds to the island.

I fear that the previous editor of this site KiteWings is either Mr Wickham or his representative. Nobody should be allowed to claim ownership to something they do not own, so this editorial claim should be removed asap. LimeCay (talk) 12:14, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

@LimeCay: Thanks for pointing this out. As you can see below, there have been discussions around the name of the island. Wikipedia has certain guidelines regarding contents. A previous editor has made changes to the article along this line which had to be reverted. In order to be considered for inclusion, we need proof that is previously published in a reliable source. You may know this background information, but without proof, we have to go by the information that is in the public domain. There is an excellent essay that explains this (WP:NOTTRUTH). I appreciate that there is a gap in media coverage between when the Appleby's were reported about and when Calala Island appeared. If you know of any public records that are accessible or media reporting in the interim (even in Spanish), that may be suitable to close the gap. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 12:48, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Jake Brockman thank you so much for looking at this so quickly. There was no media coverage of the take over of Lime Cay by the Territorial Authority. Whoever talk is I suspect he/she is or is working for the Wickhams, because as soon as I tried to edit the page to reflect the true owner of the island they reverted it. I only ask that any references to the owner are taken down, and any references to Calala Island are changed to being a resort built on Lime Cay. If you check Google maps you will see that the real name of the island is unchanged on there. I am able to supply the title deeds to the property and evidence of taxes paid, but these are not available online, or in any publication. They are available in the local registry office in Bluefields, where if you pay a fee you can get documentation that the owner is Alex Appleby, but again this is not online.

If you asked Mr Wickham to prove his ownership of the island, he may point to several articles in which he claims to be the owner and the authors have not checked the proof, but he will not be able to present any documentation from the registry office. He may have a rental agreement with the Territorial Authority and have agreed to pay tax for the business, but he does not have title deeds to the property and the name of the island has not changed. It frightens me that anybody is able to fabricate this story and then be believed simply because they said so.

@LimeCay: Wikipedians don't get involved in WP:OR, so we cannot go around asking people to show proof. However, I had another look and of the sources in this article, the only ones that mention Wickham as owner are British tabloid papers, two of which there is consensus they are unreliable, the third one is frequently challenged. I have therefore removed any mention to Wickham as owner. That is not to say that I agree or disagree who the owner is, it just states that the sources are unclear. The sources don't reliably confirm or deny that any of Wickham or Appleby are the owners. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 16:39, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

From the research I carried out last year, it was very clear the Wickham’s were the owners, there was plenty of media and other coverage stating this. I think based on the references I’ve now added, it’s sufficient to include the current ownership by the Wickham’s. Jake did the right thing to remove this initially, the tabloid references weren’t good enough.

LimeCay if you are interested in researching the involvement of Alex Appleby at some prior stage, I would for one welcome that as there are gaps in the islands history since its ownership by the Greek businessman. However, please check WP:VNT prior to any additions.KiteWings (talk) 13:22, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@KiteWings: I echo some of LimeCay's concerns. The sources that have now been added are very much promotional in their nature, as indicated by their "smooth" and "inspirational" marketing language in addition to use of images which are very much licensed or provided free of license to the media outlet as part of a press-pack. Other than for vanity, I do not see what encyclopedic value the ownership structure has. In addition to the focus on how the owners were inspired by all-sorts to build whatever, this becomes rather non-neutral in nature. I would argue that travel mags are not known for hart-hitting investigative journalism. I'm open for suggestions how to address NPOV concerns and reduce the fluff to their core factual basis. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 13:56, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@Jake Brockman: some aren't ideal, but they are better than what was there before and all refer to the Wickham's as owners. A couple of El 19 references are quite strong in my opinion, especially the one with who I presume is Tim Wickham and Nicaragua's ambassador to the UK. I do have to agree about ownership not being that important overall, and from memory, I didn't want the addition of the Greek businessman as I don't think it added anything to the article. However, all the notability about Calala Island has come since 2015, which is since the involvement of the Wickhams. Overall I think we need to be careful regarding "the ownership structure" as you put it, because explaining the owners and who resided on the island for the past 300 years isn't really that important, its really only the notable events. This raises the question even if Alex Appleby's involvement can be proven, is that involvement notable?

For example, if we can find more information on pirating, I do think that is important to cover, as when our children will read about "pirates in the caribbean" this kind of information is vital as a signpost to more in-depth content and information. After that, the greek probably makes it through on the BuzzFeed article, but then if we're including him, the Wickhams need some sort of mention? We are only at 2/3 sentences for them, so I think that is about right. The stuff about their honeymoon could go, but I thought it was interesting how they came to get involved in this part of the world. KiteWings (talk) 15:09, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@KiteWings: Yeah, I remember the previous conversations we had. I may be splitting hair now, but the El19 article refers to him as the owner of Calala Island Resort. A resort may be a structure (i.e. a building) on a geographical landmark (the island). The two may or may not be identical. I do consider the question about structure vs. island not really solved as the sources just don't give a clear answer. The naming questions comes with it. With regards to the previous owners, Lime/Calala has been covered in this documentary a while back, the controversy connects with that and has been journalistically covered - particularly as this was the de facto "privatisation" at the time - probably a notable event. The Appleby's are not mentioned in the article... I draw when it comes to any current commercial interest, intent on marketing a luxury resort. This seems a bit off... _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 15:30, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I personally think that is just being descriptive since it is a resort. To just say Calala Island, it doesn't really explain what it is. To a reader with little knowledge of the island/area, it could be a theme park such as Jungle Island in Florida. The term Calala Island is consistently used from my findings, Calala Island is also in the title of the El 19 article, no mention of resort hence why I think its just descriptive. The El 19 references are okay, but then we also have two articles from Conde Nast are part of a huge media operation, so I would suggest their editing standards for things like this are sufficient as a reference. As for privatization it is definitely relevant, but finding solid sources was difficult from memory. This is why I went down the route of introducing Necker's public/private debate into the conversation. It's clear something has happened in Calala's past. The renaming, content on the greek businessman, and this new editor making claims. But I just can't see how we can find sufficient reliable references to cover it accurately. We might have to accept its the historical coverage (pre 1950), the greek owner/privatization and then the most recent events that seem to have started from 2015 onwards. They seem to be the three notable periods in its history.KiteWings (talk) 22:29, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@KiteWings: Maybe it would be helpful to gain some wider input and fresh eyes given we have both been involved for quite a while. I have posted at WP:NPOVN for wider input. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 09:32, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Further input

Following Jake’s comments above, I agree some fresh input would help. I therefore think it is sensible to reach out to other discussion boards for specialist input.KiteWings (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

I certainly agree that the connection with Eugenie and her husband should get a mention, but only a short one. I did find a reference from a "reliable" paper: [1] Deb (talk) 07:53, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

No Going Back

This island was previously owned by a couple who appeared in a notorious episode of the British reality TV show No Going Back. I'm not going to get into the detail here, but if there are no objections I'm going to add some additional detail to the article. DustyDrawers (talk) 18:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@DustyDrawers: It should go on the relevant TV show - No Going Back, especially since that page needs attention. Listing the TV shows this island has featured on wouldn't really make sense, could you imagine if the island of Capri listed all the TV shows that have been filmed there? If you want to improve this page, maybe a geography section like Wakaya Island. Streamingsteve (talk) 10:04, 22 September 2023 (UTC)