Talk:Kalduny

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This article was nominated for deletion on 3 December 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

AfD

Kept: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kalduny. `'mikkanarxi 19:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Needs cleanup

This article needs some clean-up. Some problems include:

There are many instances of weasel words. For example: "Some people maintain it came from..." Who maintains this? Wikipedia guidelines are to avoid the use of weasel words. We need to be specific about who says this. That way the reader is better able to evaluate the source of the information.
"...is the most mysterious..." - that sentence is really an opinion. We need to cite a specific person who has that opinion, or the sentence should come out.
"...and are eaten by spoon so that dough wrapping is not broken (torn?) and not a single drop of delicious juice from inside is lost." - Two problems here. First, who says this is the reason they are eaten by spoon? Second, the idea that the juice is delicious is an opinion. We can include an opinion, but only when we cite a notable person who has that opinion. For instance, "Food Critic Tom Smith says this prevents losing any of the delicious juice."
"Belarusians argue with Poles and Lithuanians for the priority of introducing kalduny into the cuisine of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth." This sentence smacks of hyperbole. Surely all Belarusians and all Poles and all Lithuanians do not argue about this. Again, we need to cite specific, notable people who disagree about this. Otherwise, the sentence needs to come out.
"...in the days of yore any decent gentry housewife had her own secret of dough:" - Opinion. Needs to come out.
"Some maintain that the true dough for Kalduny..." - weasel words - need to come out.
"When shaping your own kalduny, lay the ready ones on a clean surface strewn with flour and close the rest of the dough with a kitchen towel so that it don’t dry out." Wikipedia ia not a how-to guide or a cook-book. We should always speak in the third-person, never the first person or the second person. In other words, we should never directly address the reader as "you". It is not encyclopedic in tone.
"tuffing should be neither too ‘hard’ nor too sticky – best if you can shape small 1 inch ball from it. It should not get between the 2 edges of the glued kalduny so that they do not disintegrate during cooking." - Same as above. No instruction. No second person.
"Most kalduny are best when boiled..." - Opinion
"Almost infinite number of combinations of dough,..." - Exageration
"...stuffing and sauce gives unlimited potential for the creativity which still mostly lay unclaimed:" - Opinion

Johntex\^talk 16:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I agree. That second paragraph needs an overhaul. I've replaced the cleanup tag with the more specific {{weasel}}. The cleanup backlog there is about 10 times smaller. MER-C 03:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have a source for Kolduniy, it's in ISBN 5-7860-0467-8 'Belorusskaya Kukhnya' (Belorussian Cuisine, I transliterated from the Russian) pg 133, it's a recipe. Does this help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.147.132.228 (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thorough cleanup performed, 15-16 September 2008. Further critique and comments welcome. How and when can we remove the old deletion request tags (here and main article)? --Zlerman (talk) 16:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Photo Available on be.wikipedia

There is a photo of a plate of kalduny available on be. wikipedia here: [1]. If a Russian speaker would be so kind as to verify copyright and permissions and to move it to Commons, we could have a nice addition to this article. Geoff (talk) 19:44, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, a great photo and it's very tempting to use it in the English article, but when I go to the source link given for the be:wiki image, I do not find any copyright/permissions information there. So, I cannot upload it to Commons. --Zlerman (talk) 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to say, the cleanup is REALLY needed!

I'm danish, writing on danish wikipedia and are participating in the WikiProjekt Litauen da:wiki, and wants to translate the artickle about Kalduny. But .... I am sorry to say, this artickle is of so low quality that I will have to rewrite it totally!

All sources are in russian, as this is en:wiki its should be possible to find at least one source in English!
It took me 5 min to find this link in English: THE LITHUANIAN TATARS In the Red Book by Ph. D Ants Viires from Tallin, Estonia (in English).
Note I know nothing about Ants Viires, but at least, as he is Estonian, I gues he is not biased on the subject.! What I could find about him is here: Mäetagused vol. 25 (in English)
When you try to press Kalduny Polesie style, Vilnius stuffing and Russian stuffing you end on be.wikipedia. The links fulfills the need of describing the different types of Kalduny, but I don't believe many readers on en:wikipedia can read Belarussian language.
Why isn't there some paragrafs with the different types of Kalduny?
To find them you have to read the whole artickle, or read it on be:wikipedia.
An idea could be to look at the struckture in the Borscht artickle, not that it's perfect, but there it's at least tryed to create some struckture.

And then this paragraf which has been discussed previous: Kalduny made with a stuffing of smoked ham and mushrooms (Kalduny Count Tyshkevich,[1] named after a Belarusian noble family from Lahojsk near Minsk) were long considered Belarus’s "visiting card", although decades of Soviet rule almost erased their trace from public memory and now they are only served in a few local restaurants. Currently the Russian pelmeni and the Ukrainian vareniki are served in more restaurants.

what has this to do with the title Description?
what has smoked ham and mushrooms to do with Kalduny Count Tyshkevich?(explanation needed)
who considered Kalduny Count Tyshkevich as Belarus’s "visiting card"^{[citation needed]}
is their (kaldony) trace ... almost erased ... from public memory^{[citation needed]}
was it the aim of Soviet rule to erase(d) their (kaldony) trace from public memory, the reason to the switch from kaldony to pelmeni could be price, it could be quality, it could be accessibility, it could simply be taste. But even this belongs in an other artickle.^{[citation needed]}
how can I believe that now they (kaldony) are only served in a few local restaurants? Why is what is sold in restaurants (in Minsk I gues) a part of "Discription" of kaldony?^{[citation needed]}.

IF we want to write about such things we CAN do it, but then it has to be unbiased, not from a revanchistic stand.

And sorry to say, to start to write about Soviet's "oppression" in an artickle about Kalduny WITHOUT comming up with a single source is really not encyclopedic!

PerV (talk) 23:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Kalduny, colțunași, καλτσούνι and calzoni

The second paragraph mentions the fact that калдуны means magicians in Slavic languages, but states that "it is unclear how the word became associated with the dish". However, the Wikipedia page for pierogi states that the word калдуны originated from the Romanian colțunași, which, in turn, originated from the Greek καλτσούνι, which itself descended from the Italian calzoni. Are there any sources on the etymology of the word? Cloudco05 (talk) 08:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary mentions a plausible connection (via German Kaldaunen meaning "tripe", compare the obsolete English term "chawdron") to Latin caldūna/caldumen "entrails of a freshly-butchered animal" (implying that the entrails in question are a) still warm and b) still filled with a paste of half-digested food - otherwise they would be hira in Latin).

Either the "magicians" etymology is mistaken, and kalduny are named because they look like strips of tripe (which tend to curl up during cooking, and are called flaki in Polish, which is connected to the German dialectical term Flecke(n), literally "spots" but ultimately deriving from the same root as e.g. Lithuanian plėšti "to tear into pieces").

Or there is indeed an etymological connection to "magicians", to be precise haruspices - pagan seers and soothsayers were usually referred as "magicians" in early Christian tradition. (It is not technically correct, because a haruspex is literally "one who looks into hira" - cleaned entrails -, and the Biblical "Magi" were Zoroastrian astrologers - but a lot can get lost in translation if the concept actually arrived in Eastern Europa via Latin and early German. I do no know if ancient Slavic priests did enteromancy).

In any case, it is quite likely that "kalduny" originated as a Germanic loanword for "tripe", which could shift in meaning to the present dish because there was another Germanic loanword for "tripe" which eventually became dominant. Whether or not this shift in meaning was indeed informed by stereotypical pagan "magicians" looking at tripe to predict the future I don't know, but it is certainly a possible metonymy.

I am not at all sure about the calzone etymology, because that term derives from calx and originally means "thing to wear on the heel of your foot" (i.e. a shoe or a sock), augmented to signify "thing to wear on your entire leg". Polish kalesony ("long underpants") agrees with the other calzone-related terms in retaining the s/z/ț/τσ where the caldūna-related terms have d/t, as does "Kalduny". And AFAIK, switching a sibilant fricative and a plosive is highly unusual - if derived from calzone, it should rather be "Kal(e)suny/Kal(e)cuny/Kal(e)dzuny" (FWIW, the Polish term for the modern dish calzone is the same as in Italian, and the Russian term is a straightforward transliteration to the Cyrillic alphabet: Кальцоне, with a ц not a д). 2001:4DD1:510A:0:5568:E908:DB39:B1E3 (talk) 21:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]