Talk:Pap of Armenia

Article's Tone Needs Reworking

The tone of this article needs to be significantly reworked on. Of course history is not entirely objective, but this article gives off a very pro-Roman and pro-Church vibe ("Pap proved a dissolute and unworthy ruler" St. Nerses I article), painting Pap as an 'evil' figure rather than recognizing him as an almost tragic figure, victim of his own great ambitions and designs.

In order to understand Pap's actions one must take into account the backdrop under which he was operating and in order to do this one needs to have a grasp of the social, cultural, religious, and political life of the Armenian kingdom at that point.

For instance, his poisoning of the Catholicos was motivated by more than merely 'evilness'. The Armenian Apostolic Church at that point in Armenia's history played a major and sometimes unwilling and obstructive role in the development of Armenia's politics and military. Firstly, they played a much more influential political role than suggested in these articles, in manipulating and orchestrating Armenia's political positions in regards to their neighbors, and, secondly, such large numbers of army-age men were being drafted into the monasteries that, in addition to already paying costly tributes to its powerful neighboring kingdoms, Armenia's war-capable demographic was being depleted at a severe cost (one which threatened Armenia's independence).

Well, this is what happens when you have one person write all the Armenian history articles on here. If I do get the time I will try to commit myself to contributing on many of these articles which are in dire shape, but nonetheless at least they are here and my thanks to everyone who has contributed time to these articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.238.146 (talk) 11:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Age

In the article of his mother Pharantzem is written that he is born in 360 (what seems reasonable). So in 370 he was only ten years old en gives him little power. (Peluba (talk) 08:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC))

Primary source

@Revolution Saga: Hello. I think we should be careful with using P'awstos Buzand / Faustus of Byzantium, as he is a primary source (WP:PST, WP:PRIMARY). For example, M. L. Chaumont does not support the statement that Mushegh reconquered lost territory from Albania as mentioned in the article ("Meanwhile, sparapet Mushegh restored Armenia's former borders, brutally punishing the provinces that had revolted against the Arsacid monarchy, forcing the pro-Persian nakharars to submit to royal authority, and retaking territories from neighboring Albania and Iberia.")

Here is what Chaumont says in his Iranica article [1];

"The more or less self-interested loyalty of the Albanians explains why the Sasanians helped them to seize from the Armenians the provinces (or districts) of Uti (with the towns of Xałxał and Pʿartaw), Šakašēn, Kołṭʿ, Gardman, and Arcʿax (Pʿawstos Biwzand, History 5.12, 13, in Langlois, Collection I, p. 288; idem, Armenian Geography, tr. A. Soukry, Venice, 1881, p. 39; cf. Markwart, Ērānšahr, p. 118; H. S. Anassian, “Mise au point relative à l’Albanie caucasienne,” Revue des études arméniennes 6, 1969, pp. 306ff.). These territories were to remain in the possession of Albania; a reconquest by Mušeł (cf. Pʿawstos, ibid.) was unlikely." HistoryofIran (talk) 00:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I added a note to that effect in the body w/ reference to Manandyan, and changed the wording in the lead to refer only to the reconquest of "some former terrritories". Revolution Saga (talk) 02:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Noice. And great work on the article btw, Wiki articles related to the Late Antiquity/Middle Ages Armenia really need some love. You should deffo nominate this to GA when you are done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Revolution Saga (talk) 21:50, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pap of Armenia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 14:37, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a Y 1.b Y 2 2.a Y 2.b Y 2.c Y 2.d Y 3 3.a Y 3.b Y 4 4.a Y 5 5.a Y 6 6.a Y 6.b Y

• No DAB links Y
• No dead links Y
• No missing citations N By the end of the summer, Shapur II had retreated to his capital at Ctesiphon and Valens went back to Antioch. Shapur II was unable to confront the massive Roman buildup in Armenia as a result of his preoccupation with Kushan attacks in the eastern part of his empire. Thus, Roman control over Armenia through the client king Pap was secure for the time being.

  Pap is a character in the tragedy Nerses the Great, Patron of Armenia written in 1857, by the 19th-century Armenian playwright, actor and editor, Sargis Vanandetsi (Sargis Mirzayan).

• Pap is the titular character of the historical novel Pap Tagavor by Stepan Zoryan, first published in 1944. @Revolution Saga: these need citations. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:39, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  Seems like this is your first time nominating a GA article per tools, apologies if this isn't true; generally GAs should have all prose text cited, and content such as footnotes will need to be cited if you wish to take this to a MILHIST A-class review or FAC, if you wish to do that after this review. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:45, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  Also, lede material does not generally need to be cited unless it is not supported and cited in the body. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:45, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Revolution Saga: re-pinging. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for the suggestions and info, will make changes accordingly Revolution Saga (talk) 03:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Iazyges: I've added the missing citations you requested. --Dallavid (talk) 19:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Dallavid: Excellent, I shall continue with my suggestions. Thank you! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• @Revolution Saga: Apologies for the slow pace, I'll try to wrap up my part of the review this week. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:44, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
• @Revolution Saga and Dallavid: That is all of my suggestions, outside from the dating disagreement in the lede and body as to his birth, the article is good, but could benefit from some edits for readability. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:26, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for your helpful suggestions! I have implemented most of them. I will work on adding a historiography section soon. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 01:01, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

Prose Suggestions

Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.

Lede

• In the lede his birthday is given as c.353, but in the body, it is given as seemingly 351, 353, or 360 (assuming this is not meant to be 353—360, I can only see the actual numbers in Manandyan as I can't read Armenian, can machine translate Sargsyan). Suggest 351, 353, or 360–374/375, if these are the supported dates, and adding these three dates as a birth_date=.
• was King of Armenia from 370 until 374/375. A member of the Arsacid dynasty, his reign saw a short, but notable period of stabilization after years of political turmoil. suggest restructuring to was King of Armenia from 370 until 374/375, and a member of the Arsacid dynasty. His reign saw a short, but notable period of stabilization after years of political turmoil.
• Pap ascended to the throne at a young age with Roman assistance in 370 after Armenia had been conquered and devastated by the Sassanid king Shapur II. suggest Although Armenia had been conquered and devastated by the Sassanid king Shapur II in 367/368, Pap was restored to the throne at a young age with Roman assistance in 370.
• culminating in his alleged murder by poisoning of Nerses I, Patriarch of Armenia. it's important here to mention that this poisoning is possible propaganda, suggest Pap allegedly had the Patriarch of Armenia, Nerses I, poisoned, however, some later historians doubt this narrative.
• The emperor Valens had him assassinated (after an initial unsuccessful attempt) in 374/375. suggest The emperor Valens unsuccessfully attempted to assassinate him in 374/375, but ultimately succeded in having him killed 375.
• The classical Armenian historians are hostile to Pap and ascribe to him an array of sins, chief among which being the murder of Nerses I.[1] This attitude toward Pap has been explained by the king's troublesome relationship with the Armenian Church, caused by his promotion of Arianism and efforts to limit the church's power and influence.[1] The Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus, on the other hand, presents a more favorable image of Pap, whom he praises for his bravery and cleverness.[3][4] Some later Armenian historians reevaluated Pap in a positive light, considering him an unjust victim of pro-church historians and valuing his attempts to strengthen the Armenian monarchy and pursue an independent foreign policy under difficult circumstances. a lot of this seems to exist in the lede and not the body (outside of some bits about religious policy in the King of Armenia section), strongly suggest creating a "Historiography" section in the body and moving this there, and providing a briefer summary in the lede.

Ascendance to the throne

• (Arshak is said to have committed suicide in captivity a few years later). suggest transferring this to a footnote.
• Shapur II may have intended to combine Sassanid administrative rule (Zik and Karen) with that of nakharar rule (Artsruni and Mamikonian) should explain a bit more about what this means. Was he attempting to merge two dual administrations into one, to consolidate, or else was he stripping nobility of their ranks?
• (alternatively, at the request of Cylaces and Artabanes) The alternatively here seems to mean according to other sources, at the request of Cylaces and Artabanes, so I would just change it to that, and perhaps add a footnote for source disagreement; unless Lenski themselves believes it may be either one, in which case I suggest Or possibly, at the request of Cylaces and Artabanes
• (Nina Garsoïan places Pap's return earlier, c. 367) I would make this a footnote or else discuss the dating dispute in greater detail.

King of Armenia

• Valens was reluctant to bestow a royal title upon Pap --Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:19, 4 December 2022 (UTC)in order not to violate an earlier treaty signed by Jovian in July 363, suggest Valens was reluctant to bestow a royal title upon Pap as this would violate an earlier treaty signed by Jovian in July 363,
• (some authors believe Shapur's correspondence with Pap occurred only after he was restored to the throne) would move to a footnote and name specific historians.
• emerged victorious (called the Battle of Bagavan or Vagabanta) suggest emerged victorious at the Battle of Bagavan
• Christian in name only and that he was sympathetic towards paganism/Zoroastrianism unless there's allegations that he was some other form of pagan, suggest just Christian in name only and that he was sympathetic towards Zoroastrianism
• accumulated significant estates and wealth in the form of the benevolent institutions created by Nerses under Arshak II's reign what is meant here by benevolent? That these were charities, or that it was good for the country, or for the church itself? If the first suggest changing benevolent to charitable, if the second, retain (but probably will have to expand upon as it's important context if so, if the last, suggest lucrative rather than benevolent
• (371 or 372 according to other estimates) suggest making into a footnote with names of disputing authors.
• The king then dissolved the benevolent institutions established by Nerses same suggestion as with the above usage of benevolent
• ptghi and tasanord (tithes) it seems like these are both tithes (and I have struggled to find english sources about them), so I would suggest removing the paranthesis to make it ptghi and tasanord tithes
• Pap nominated a certain Husik as a replacement and sent him for consecration in Caesarea, the usage of the scholarly "Certain" to speculate on a person doesn't translate well to laymen, in my experience, and suggests that Husik might be a title, rather than person. Suggest removing a certain, and perhaps changing it to a man named Husik (with any background that might be useful and available)

Fall

• who wrote to the emperor criticizing Pap and advising him to get rid of the Armenian king suggest who wrote to the emperor criticizing Pap and advising him to depose the Armenian king
• Valens decided to execute Pap and invited him to a meeting in Tarsus. Pap arrived with 300 mounted escorts but quickly became anxious when he found out the emperor was not there in person, fleeing back toward Armenia and fighting off a legion that was sent after him.[40][41] suggest Valens decided to have Pap executed, and invited him to a meeting in Tarsus. Pap arrived with 300 mounted scores, but became worried by the absence of the emperor, and therefore fled back to Armenia, and fought off a legion that was sent after him.
• who failed to capture and execute Pap suggest removing and execute
• under the regency of Mushegh Mamikonian (the Mamikonians were the chief pro-Roman noble house in Armenia) suggest under the regency of Mushegh Mamikonian, as the Mamikonians were the chief pro-Roman noble house in Armenia).
• replacement with a Roman nominee provoked a Persian reaction; however, Shapur did not invade and took only diplomatic action suggest replacement with a Roman nominee provoked Persian outrage; however, Shapur did not invade and took only diplomatic action.

@Iazyges: All suggestions are  Done --Dallavid (talk) 00:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Shapur II invaded Armenia twice in response to Pap of Armenia's restoration as the king but was beaten by both the Armenians and Romans? Source: King of Armenia section of the article.
  • ALT1: ... that Pap of Armenia was murdered by Traianus under Valens's orders because of the fear that he was colluding with the Persians? Source: Fall section of the article.
  • ALT2: ... that Pap of Armenia survived an assassination attempt by Roman legions during a battle, but was later murdered by the Romans during a feast? Source:
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/A Man and His Dog (narrative)

Improved to Good Article status by Revolution Saga (talk) and Dallavid (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 18:06, 19 December 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Onegreatjoke: I like ALT2 the most, so I hope that's what will appear on the Main Page. Before I promote this hook, I'm going to need you to provide specific citations for the main hook and ALT1. Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@Unlimitedlead: For alt0 it's citation 14 while alt1 is 30,34, and 50. I would also like to change alt0 to be alt3 "... that Shapur II invaded Armenia in response to Pap of Armenia's restoration as the king?"as the first hook is incorrect. Onegreatjoke (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Approving. Unlimitedlead (talk) 22:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

@Unlimitedlead: I also hope ALT2 will be the one selected. Maybe I'm biased because it was the one I wrote, but I do believe that it would catch the most interest from readers with no prior knowledge of Pap. ALT0 seems to be more about Shapur, and ALT1 is technically incorrect because Traianus didn't personally murder Pap. Dallavid (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your imput. I'm approving only ALT0 and ALT2 then, with preference for the latter. Unlimitedlead (talk) 01:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)