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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cinderella157 (talk | contribs) at 10:49, 13 June 2024 (→Numbers make no sense: r). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Why is the US not at all included in terms of the sides in the conflict?

The Mujahideen were funded in what was the most expensive operation in CIA history and was basically what led the Soviets to invade and yet thrle US and CIA isnt included in the sides in the conflict? 2600:1006:B147:CDA:E1A4:D260:546:71AB (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you should ask User:Cinderella157? Eastfarthingan (talk) 21:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article certainly mentions the role of US and the CIA. However, I donot see that there are WP:RSs that would call the US a belligerent in the war? This would be the reason why the US is not listed as a belligerent in the infobox.
They were not a belligerent but were heavily involved (along with Pakistan and UK) in covert military support, there are separate articles about these too. I think a consensus needs to be reached rather than state a 'depracted' opinion. Eastfarthingan (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deprecation of "supported by" is not opinion, it was arrived at through an RfC at the template talk page and is linked in the template documentation. The close does allow for an affirmative consensus (ie an RfC) that would allow and exception to the deprecation. If that is what you think should happen .... Cinderella157 (talk) 14:10, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry what I meant was Military support - it gives a better understanding, and isn't as vague Supported by. I can see why the former has been depracted given the many articles that have it and conatin large lists of countries/combatants etc. So yes I think for Military support a consensus should be made . Eastfarthingan (talk) 15:30, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of the spirit and intent of the RfC that deprecated the use (here is the link), I don't see a distinction between "supported by" and "military support". I am not standing in your way as far as opening an RfC goes but I would suggest that the RfC should be explicit as to which countries are added and why (and why no other countries would be added). Before we go down this path, please consider this version of the article. You might also consider this RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Units involved section

Can someone add the Afghan Armed Forces in the units involved section (preferably above paramilitaries)? It was not just Afghan paramilitaries that fought the war, but the Afghan Armed Forces as well. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 20:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maoist mujahideen fighters

Can we please add Maoist fighters back to the infobox of the page, since Wikipedia is supposed to cover all details of a war? It was removed for very shaky reasons, the idea being that Maoists didn't play any actual role and the one major Maoist leader (Majid Kalakani) died in 1980. But that's not true. There were multiple Maoist factions, specifically ALO, SAMA and AMFF, and several major Maoist leaders such as Faiz Ahmad and Mulavi Dawood. They were killed in 1986, but were still leaders in the war up to that point, and the Maoists were an active (though considerably less so compared to the Islamists) presence in the war.

I don't necessarily believe they need to be a separate entry from the Afghan Mujahideen section, as that's an all-encompassing title, but they can be included as part of them. How about something like this?

Soviet–Afghan War
Part of the Cold War and the Afghan conflict


Date24 December 1979 – 15 February 1989
(9 years, 1 month, 3 weeks and 1 day)
Location
Afghanistan
Result Afghan Mujahideen victory
Belligerents
 Soviet Union
 Afghanistan		 Afghan Mujahideen
Afghan Interim Government (from 1988)
Commanders and leaders
Soviet Union:
Afghanistan:
Sunni Mujahideen:
Shia Mujahideen:
Maoists:
Units involved
Soviet Armed Forces
KGB
Afghan Armed Forces
Paramilitaries:
 Sunni Mujahideen
Factions:
Shia Mujahideen
Factions:
Maoists
Factions:
Strength
Soviet Union:
  • 620,000 total personnel[7] 115,000 (1986 estimate)[8] 120,000 (1987 estimate)[9]
Afghanistan:
  • 250,000 total personnel (1989, including Sarandoy and Khad)[10]
 Mujahideen:
Casualties and losses
Total: 86,470–98,017
Soviet Union:
  • 14,453[14]–26,000[15] killed
    • 9,500 killed in combat[14]
    • 4,000 died from wounds[14]
    • 1,000 died from disease and accidents[14]
  • 53,753 wounded[14]
  • 264 missing
  • 451 aircraft lost (including 333 helicopters)
  • 147 tanks lost
  • 1,314 IFVs/APCs lost
  • 433 artillery guns and mortars lost
  • 11,369 cargo and fuel tanker trucks lost
Afghanistan:
 Total: 162,579–192,579+
Mujahideen:
  • 150,000–180,000 casualties (tentative estimate)[22]
    • 75,000–90,000 killed
Pakistan:

Total killed: 80,775–95,775+
Civilian casualties (Afghan):
1,500,000–2,000,000 killed[25][26]
3+ million wounded[27]
5+ million externally displaced
2+ million internally displaced
Combatant deaths:
More than 562,995 killed[28]
Total deaths:
Approximately 3 million killed[29]

Nights At Nyte (talk) 07:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This works amazingly. Thank you! AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The infobox is already way too bloated. Make a case at TP that these additions are supported by the article per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Furthermore, entries in the commanders parameter need to be reviewed to what is reflected by the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The top leader is believed to be Maulvi Mohammad Umar Amir, who was born in the village of Nodeh in Kandhar, and is now settled in Singesar. He was wounded four times in the battles against the Soviets and his right eye was permanently damaged. He took part in the "Jehad" under the late Hizb-e-Islami Khalis Commander Nek Mohammad". Indian Defence Review. 10: 33. 1995.
  2. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 190.
  3. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 61.
  4. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 189.
  5. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 62.
  6. ^ Goodson 2011, p. 63.
  7. ^ Krivosheev, p. 365
  8. ^ Nyrop, Richard F.; Seekins, Donald M. (January 1986). Afghanistan: A Country Study (PDF). Washington, DC: United States Government Printing Office. pp. xviii–xxv. Archived from the original (PDF) on 3 November 2001.
  9. ^ Borshchevskaya, Anna (2022). "2: The Soviet Union in the Middle East and the Afghanistan Intervention". Putin's War in Syria. 50 Bedford Square, London, WC1B 3DP, UK: I. B. Tauris. p. 24. ISBN 978-0-7556-3463-7. By 1987, the number of Soviet troops reached 120,000.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)
  10. ^ Katz, Mark N. (9 March 2011). "Middle East Policy Council | Lessons of the Soviet Withdrawal from Afghanistan". Mepc.org. Retrieved 28 July 2011.
  11. ^ Rischard, Maxime. "Al Qa'ida's American Connection". Global-Politics.co.uk. Archived from the original on 21 November 2011. Retrieved 28 July 2011.
  12. ^ "Soviet or the USA the strongest" (in Norwegian). Translate.google.no. Archived from the original on 17 March 2019. Retrieved 28 July 2011.
  13. ^ "Afghanistan hits Soviet milestone – Army News". Armytimes.com. Archived from the original on 25 May 2012. Retrieved 15 February 2012.
  14. ^ a b c d e Cite error: The named reference vfw.org was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  15. ^ Peter Beaumont (18 October 2009). "Same old mistakes in new Afghan war". Guardian.
  16. ^ "Reid, Ogden, (16 May 1882–4 Jan. 1947), Owner and Editor of the New York Herald Tribune", Who Was Who, Oxford University Press, 2007-12-01, doi:10.1093/ww/9780199540884.013.u230900, retrieved 2024-03-02
  17. ^ SIPRI Yearbook 1989 World Armaments and Disarmament. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. 1989. p. 166.
  18. ^ "Reid, Ogden, (16 May 1882–4 Jan. 1947), Owner and Editor of the New York Herald Tribune", Who Was Who, Oxford University Press, 2007-12-01, doi:10.1093/ww/9780199540884.013.u230900, retrieved 2024-03-02
  19. ^ SIPRI Yearbook 1989 World Armaments and Disarmament. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. 1989. p. 166.
  20. ^ "Reid, Ogden, (16 May 1882–4 Jan. 1947), Owner and Editor of the New York Herald Tribune", Who Was Who, Oxford University Press, 2007-12-01, doi:10.1093/ww/9780199540884.013.u230900, retrieved 2024-03-02
  21. ^ SIPRI Yearbook 1989 World Armaments and Disarmament. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. 1989. p. 166.
  22. ^ Giustozzi, Antonio (2000). War, politics and society in Afghanistan, 1978–1992. Hurst. p. 115. ISBN 978-1-85065-396-7. A tentative estimate for total mujahideen losses in 1980–92 may be in the 150–180,000 range, with maybe half of them killed.
  23. ^ Markovskiy, Victor (1997). "Жаркое небо Афганистана: Часть IX" [Hot Sky of Afghanistan: Part IX]. Авиация и время [Aviation and Time] (in Russian) p.28
  24. ^ Weisman, Steven R. (2 May 1987). "AFGHANS DOWN A PAKISTANI F-16, SAYING FIGHTER JET CROSSED BORDER". The New York Times. Retrieved 2 October 2014.
  25. ^ Klass 2018, p. 129.
  26. ^ Goodson 2011, p. 5.
  27. ^ Hilali, A. (2005). US–Pakistan relationship: Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan. Burlington, VT: Ashgate Publishing Co. (p. 198)ISBN 0-7546-4220-8
  28. ^ Cite error: The named reference 562k was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  29. ^ James Joes, Anthony (2010). "4: Afghanistan: End of the Red Empire". Victorious Insurgencies: Four Rebellions that Shaped Our World. The University Press of Kentucky. p. 211. ISBN 978-0-8131-2614-2. Late in 1988, diplomats and international relief workers estimated that 3 million Afghan men, women and children had died as a direct result of the war

That blue flag for the Sarandoy isn’t an Afghan flag…

I saw that flag at a parade at the time and decided to digitalise it… I don’t know what it means but it wasn’t used for Sarandoy. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 06:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. Too much cruft here anyway. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your contributions! AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 16:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers make no sense

It starts out by saying that "3 million Afghans were killed" out of a population of 13.5M, which is ridiculous. What were they firebombing towns? Mass executing civilians? There are usually many times as many people wounded as killed, so what, half the population was wounded or killed at some point during the war? It wasn't even that bad in Serbia during WW1, and that's about as severe a case as I'm aware of. Then in the info box below that is says that 3 million is the number of casualties. Not killed. And that's the maximum estimate, which is not the most likely one. Casualties includes all the wounded, captured, missing, and killed, the last generally being by far the smallest portion. Maybe if someone took all the deaths that occured in Afghanistan during that ten year period and said "okay these were clearly caused by the war" and wrote that number down you might get something like that. Although I wonder who was keeping accurate counts of the various tribes and villages and what happened to all the people in them over a decade.

Then it says there was 200,000 mujahideen, with 150,000 casualties. 75% of them were killed or wounded? They won the war in spite of only having 50,000 fighters left? Does that include POWs, like most casualty counts? Is 200,000 the total number of fighters who served at some point during the war? Was that the average overall size of their force, which stayed constant the whole time in spite of fighters being killed or wounded, deserting, retiring from age or sickness? It didn't start out as 50K and end up at 200K? At the numbers on the other side measured by the same metric? Hard to have faith in anything an article tells you when you are already having serious doubts before you start to scroll down.

Idumea47b (talk) 00:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Short answer, is the information you query WP:VERIFIABLE? If not verifiable (to good quality RSs), it should be removed. If there is nuance to information, it should not be represented in the infobox in a Wiki voice as a "fact". Cinderella157 (talk) 09:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3E1I5S8B9RF7, you made unexplained changes to the casualty figures in the infobox here but not to the body of the article. "Key facts" in the infobox should be supported by the body of the article and the article remain complete without the infobox (WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE). If there are significant difference in figures given in good quality sources, this becomes a point of nuance that cannot be effectively captured in an infobox. This part of the infobox is particularly bloated and should be rationalised. My revert is not so much a matter of what is being changed but a matter of its execution. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Following some figures for civilian casualties from the literature.

Estimates of Afghan losses vary, but it is believed that anywhere from 800,000 to 1.2 million Afghans died as a result of the fighting.[1]

The casualty figures we have are more or less inaccurate guesses, often put into circulation for propaganda reasons. But probably somewhere between 600,000 and 1.5 million Afghans were killed in the Soviet war.[2]

For Afghan civilian casualties, Dr Antonio Giustozzi has suggested a low figure of 600,000; a widely accepted figure is 1–1.5 million; General Lyakhovski gives the highest figure of 2.5 million, but he gives no source.[3]

A careful analysis of data collected in refugee camps relating to patterns of war-related mortality concluded that between 1978 and 1987, unnatural deaths in Afghanistan amounted to 876,825 (Khalidi, 1991: 107). On average, this represented over 240 deaths every day for 10 years straight, or over 60 Afghan deaths for each Soviet soldier who died as a result of the war.[4]

Carpet bombings, razed villages, mass executions, torture, starvation, disease, and landmines caused horrific casualties and created masses of refugees. Astonishingly for a country with high birth rates, Afghanistan’s population actually declined during the war from 13.3 million 1979 to 11.5 million in 1987.[5]

References

  1. ^ Kalinovsky, Artemy M. (2011). A Long Goodbye: The Soviet Withdrawal from Afghanistan. Harvard University Press. p. 1. ISBN 978-0-674-05866-8.
  2. ^ Braithwaite, Rodric (2011). Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan 1979–1989. Oxford University Press. p. 331. ISBN 978-0-19-983265-1.
  3. ^ Braithwaite, Rodric (2011). Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan 1979–1989. Oxford University Press. p. 347. ISBN 978-0-19-983265-1.
  4. ^ Maley, William (2021). The Afghanistan Wars (3rd ed.). Red Globe Press. p. 124. ISBN 978-1-352-01100-5.
  5. ^ Hegghammer, Thomas (2020). The Caravan: Abdallah Azzam and the Rise of Global Jihad. Cambridge University Press. p. 148. ISBN 978-0-521-76595-4.
--Jo1971 (talk) 19:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Soviets apparently used Napalm in the Laghman massacre. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 15:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried correcting and clarifying the casualties figures in the infobox, but Cinderella157 reverted it yesterday, even though all my figures had citations. For one, under Afghanistan communist casualties, the wrong figure is currently listed; 13,310 dead by 1988. But that is the official Soviet fatality figure[1], not the fatality figure of the Afghan communist government. My edit had Antonio Giustozzi as a source, who lists a detailed breakthrough of Afghan communist government forces who died by each year, amounting to over 58,000 dead (page 271).
I also gave a range from 1 to 3 million dead, to clarify.

What were they firebombing towns? Mass executing civilians?

Actually yes. And they did that for over nine years. See also Soviet war crimes and the "War crimes" section in this article. Whether it was "not that bad" or worse than in Serbia during WW1 is something that is irrelevant for this article. The mujahideen had 75,000 to 90,000 dead. As in every article, we go by what reliable sources say. I will try adding this data in the infobox, if anyone finds other good sources, they can add them. But just going on by hyperbole and not believing the sources is just no valid reason to derail the article. --3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the official Soviet figure about casualties: That number changed over time.

Statistics for those who died in the war are disputed. The first official figure—which MPA head Aleksei Lizichev released before the war ended—gave 13,310 dead as of May 1, 1988. But the number grew. In 1989, after the war ended, the GS published the figure of 13,833 soldiers, including 1,979 officers, who were killed (presumably in combat) or died of wounds and sickness; 572 security service (KGB and border guard); 28 MVD personnel; and 190 military advisers, 145 of them officers. Of those who died, 62.5 percent were aged 18 to 20. According to one source, anyone fit to be transported to the Soviet Union was sent there for treatment so as not to enlarge casualty statistics. By the end of the 1990s, it was officially admitted that the total number exceeded 15,000 (15,051), plus 417 either missing in action or captured, of whom 130 had been liberated by January 1, 1999. […] One Russian source writing in the 2000s put the number of deaths at approximately 19,000.[1]

References

  1. ^ Ro'i, Yaacov (2022). The Bleeding Wound: The Soviet War in Afghanistan and the Collapse of the Soviet System. Stanford University Press. p. 89. ISBN 978-1-5036-2874-8.
--Jo1971 (talk) 17:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3E1I5S8B9RF7, I expained here, why I reverted your edit. You have reinstated it (with a correction) and the comment that (in part), This is just the first step of the process. It is more important to remedy the body of the article since the infobox is a reflection of the article - not the other way around. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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