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Islamofascism

Votes

KEEP Neologism just like Judeofascism. They should be treated equally. --Islamist 01:03, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • obvious Keep, 62,000 Google hits. Gazpacho 01:15, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually there are only 621 unique hits. The rest is google ghosts. Try to list until the last page of search results. Mikkalai 01:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment: You are not the first person to misunderstand this figure. The figure of 621 is the number out of the 1000 best matching pages that Google considers to be distinct, not the number out of all 62,000 matches. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 11:07, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment Not scientific I know but I have never heard the term Judeofascism but have heard Islamofascism many times. I doubt the former is a term at all. UDoN't!wAn* 23:21, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • delete or wiktionary. Neologism. Political slander of dubious merit under the notion. Probably original research: no authoritative sources with academic discourse of the term are provided. Mikkalai 01:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Maybe no academic discourse, but the term (or the closely related "Islamic totalitarianism") has appeared in, e.g., an influential New Republic column entitled "Towards A New Liberalism", by Peter Beinart and this George Will column. Here it's cited by Andrew Sullivan in an interview. It's also used commonly on Free Republic and sites of that ilk. I think it's a legitimate political slogan, and we could have an article on it. keep. Meelar (talk) 01:36, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Extreme Keep Islamist has been involved in snarky POV edits/vandalism of this page. He keeps removing wikiformating and link descriptions from the related links section. User:Islamism is trying to clobber Islamofascism, since he objects to the term. He creates an objectionable article for the bogus neologism Judeofascism (153 hits) and then claims that the article on Islamofascism, a real word with 62,500 hits, must share the same fate (Merge and Protect/Deletion) as his obvious VfD fodder since the two words have a similar construction. There is a big difference between a term with 62,500 hits and one with 153 hits. There is a difference between a term which is used noted authors in influential publications vs a neologism tossed about on antiwar.com. This is pure bad faith VfD.

This article got split out of the list of political epithets because because the section gradually grew in size to the scope of an article. The term islamofascism may have once been an epithet, but over time it has evolved into a word describing the concept of violent totalitiarian islamism. As a notable word/concept it deserves its own comprehensive and NPOV article. If the final decision is to redirect, I urge that it not be protected, because Islamofascism will once again grow big enough and notable enough to be split out, again. Sealing the redirect will prevent tender love and organic growth
The term islamofascism gets 62,500 hits on Google compared to 153 hits for Judeofascism. The ratio is 85,100/73 on Yahoo! Search. Islamofascism has become a fairly common term since 9/11. Klonimus 23:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

    • This was written after Mikkalai's comment: "Actually there are only 621 unique hits. The rest is google ghosts." Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Example citiations are provided below :

  • "Islamofacism" gets another 4,130 Google hits (or 483 if you subscribe to the "Google ghost" idea). Islamofascist gets another 67,200 (709 if you don't want the "ghosts"), and Islamofacist another 877 (577 de-ghosted). It seems to get sufficient hits to include as a term in common use. Keep Jayjg (talk) 02:17, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • An interesting dilemma, given that I already voted to redirect Judeofascism to Zionism... but that was because the description for Judeofascicm was essentially the same as the negative connotation attributed to Zionism. I'd suggest a redirect for this also if there were an appropriate topic to redirect to, but what would it be? Islamic fundamentalism? Problematic, as that could be used to describe those who simply ascribe non-politically to deeply held religous beliefs. The term is in use in popular culture, and has a meaning unique from any article to which it might be redirected, therefore I must vote keep, but with the admonishment that the article should acknowledge that this is an inherently POV term invented by persons with beliefs that are probably generally hostile to Islam. -- 8^D BDAbramsongab 03:17, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)
  • Redirect to list of political epithets and permanently protect. Neutralitytalk 03:21, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
      • The reason this article was taken out of list of political epithets was that its entry had grown out much longer than the typical single paragraph list entry. As is the article is about four paragraphs long with an extensive list of outbound links. As is the article needs some serious work to make it more encyclopedic, but thats what tender love and organic growth are for. Klonimus 03:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Agreed, redirect. An article on fascistic tendencies in both Islam and Judaism cannot have such a title so long as its use —among politicans, scholars, judges, journalists, etc.— remains limited as an epithet. El_C 03:41, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • I think there is good evidence that this term has grown out from being a mere epithet. it's mentioned in books, editorial pages and government officials. Klonimus 03:58, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • So, where is this evidence? Note that if they depict it as "Islamofascism", than that denotes it being an epithet rather than a construct. E.g. "Christopher Hitchens, for example, describes Islamic extremism as “Islamofascism” and strongly favored Operation Iraqi Freedom." Source: D.D. Walton, "The West and Its Antagonists: Culture, Globalization, and the War on Terrorism," Comparative Strategy, July/August/September 2004, vol. 23, no. 3, pp. 303-312(10). El_C 04:18, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
          • Au contraire, we have many articles on epithets. See e.g. nigger. Meelar (talk) 20:28, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
    • Agreed, redirect. It's an epithet. As George Orwell said in 1948, the word Fascism itself has been so commonly overused that now it merely means "something bad". Tempshill 20:11, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Redirect nobs
  • Redirect to list of political epithets, until such time as this concept develops into something more than just an epithet. The article must be proportional to the thing. Has only appeared in two books before 2004. [1] --bainer 05:38, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I understand why you might think that Islamofascism is a mere pejorative epithet; The term itself has a pejorative connotation. However it is a very common concept in neoconservative circles, and since neoconservativsm is a notable political ideology, it's common concepts are also notable. May I suggest looking at.
  • Keep, seems notable on Google. Megan1967 05:39, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Redirect. I agree that Islamist (talk · contribs) has behaved badly regarding this (blanking the article and making it a redirect), and has been pushing a very clear PoV in a number of related articles — but that's irrelevant. This article, the one on Judeofascism, and any other of the same kind, are simply ill-disguised attacks on racial or religious groups; they invent a term and a concept to go with it, and then use it to smear those groups. The claim by Meelar that it should be kept because some right-wing writers have written about 'Islamic totalitarianism' fails if only because it confuses totalitarianism with fascism. Klonimus' contention that the notion is encyclopædic because it's used in U.S. neo-conservative circles is equally unconvincing. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Finally, a voice of reason. El_C 11:42, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) His comment, that is, not his vote. The epithet is clearly notable enough to be redirected to list of political epithets. Please reconsider your vote, Mel. El_C 11:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Well, OK — though I'm inclined to say that if it's just the term that's notable, it should be moved to Wiktionary. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:14, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • Thanks. It's a valid concern, but it's important, I think, for Wikipedia to verify to the reader that it is (still) an epithet. El_C 13:09, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I agree. Sorry, I did the same thing as Islamist, because I misread the page, not realizing it was on VfD. Islamofascism should do whatever Slogan 'Islamofascism' does, and since it's a redirect, it should be a redirect too. If this is not made into a redirect, it should at the very least be moved to Slogan 'Islamofascism' instead of its current localtion. LDan 23:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually you did not mis-read it when you got there it had been vandalized which included removing the VfD template. Dalf | Talk 00:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Appears to be widely used with a fairly well defined meaning and the article is of sufficient size and quality to be kept, rather than merged. TigerShark 10:55, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Neutral. I'm torn on this. On one hand, this concept does appear to be fairly notable - the term has been used by many prominent right-wing commentators in the United States. On the other hand, I see no effective way to prevent this article from becoming a POV playground. Currently the article has some serious NPOV issues, which I am going to attempt to rectify. Firebug 11:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • There is a way: Neutrality, bainer, and myself are voting redirect/protect. El_C 12:04, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)\
      • I'll go along with that. Change vote to redirect and protect. Firebug 17:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Voting to redirect implies that the subject is non notable. 62.5 Kilogoogles is pretty darn notable. Klonimus 15:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Neutrality's solution. Agree with El C. It's what wingnuts call it, not what it is. You could sum up all there is to say about it in two sentences. Lists of who have used it are particularly ridiculous but I look forward to the same idea being applied to cunt. Grace Note 12:33, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • If only I could be so concise, I would be far less longwinded. True, every word, down to the final (and inexorably most decisive) note. El_C 13:09, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge back to list of political epithets. Keeping it as a separate article legitimizes it and encourages the POV pushers (witness Klonimus's edits and proposed outline on the talk page). This is purely an epithet, and the only way to make sure it is treated as just an epithet is to merge it back into the list. Protect the redirect only if necessary. —Charles P. (Mirv) 12:56, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • I have to disagree, The concept of Islamic Fascism gets 704 kilogoogles, this suggests that the term is notable as a concept more than an epithet. And anyways the extant article is too long and encyclopedic for it to be a mere list entry.Klonimus 15:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • "Dubya" gets over a million hits. It's still an epithet. —Charles P. (Mirv) 16:00, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Send it back to the fire from which it came. Okay, I've had my moment. El_C 13:09, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect to list of political epithets. This is an epithet, not a well defined concept. 80.203.115.12 15:58, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, well beloved-epithet of newspaper columnists everywhere. Slac speak up! 00:02, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete or Redirect, very redundant article and an offensive slur. See talk page of the article for further discussion.Yuber 00:53, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete - I don't agree that it's the same as "Judeofascism," but it's still meaningless. "Fascism" as it's commonly applied is a deliberately vague term, and there's no natural link between Islam and fascism. --Leifern 02:34, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)
  • Merge back into List of political epithets and Redirect. I am not opposed to epithets having their own articles, someone above mentioned nigger, but in this case even if the term does see some amount of use in terms of google I do not see it as a significant term historically or in any other context. Some time down the road I think revisiting the issue of it having its own article is a good idea but for now redirect it back.Dalf | Talk 05:18, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Extreme keep and delist; this appears to be a bad-faith nomination. Islamofascism gets 63000 hits, Judeofascism gets 150. Do the math. —RaD Man (talk) 05:55, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge back into List of political epithets and Redirect. This is an epithet, not an encyclopedic topic. An encyclopedic article might conceivably be written about the history of the word's usage, but I very much doubt it. - Mustafaa 06:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to List of political epithets. --Viriditas | Talk 07:37, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Important political term for an important political concept. Capitalistroadster 02:44, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • redirect to an article named something along the lines of Islamic Theocratic Intolerance. I am on the border here. There is an obscene amount of historical evidence to give legitimacy to this term, c.f. the definitions of "fascism" at Fascism. Through every period of history since the historical (a term I use in an attempt at compromising deference to the Muslims who insist that Islam goes back to the creation of the World) inception of Islam, i.e., the time of the Prophet, pbuh, every characteristic of fascism has, at one time or another, characterized the majority interpretation of the Prophet's teachings. That said, however, in every Muslim realm where shari`a has not held political supremacy, the same characteristics have been, without a single exception of which I'm aware, absent from Muslim rule. So, the facts seem to me to indicate that there exists Islamofascism on the theocratic level, but not on the Islamosecular level, and so it seems to me that the term Islamofascism is too all-encompassing. It makes it sound as though all Muslims are fascists, which is simply not the case. From what I am preached by my Muslim friends, the teachings of the Prophet, pbuh, are also non-Fascist. I don't think the Wikipedia should play the role of inventing or supporting politically or emotionally charged appellations. It is my observation, that the term Islamofascism is used primarily by right-wing pro-Israel American Christians (NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT, to quote Jerry Seinfeld) more than by anyone else, to describe the exact phenomenon which I'm describing...but that doesn't mean that the term is exact or definitive. That point should be made VERY CLEAR in the prélude to the article as renamed according to my proposal. I hope people will consider my input carefully, and change their votes accordingly if they agree. We can take up a vote on an appropriate name afterwards, if need be. Tomer TALK 08:47, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to clarify my "redirect" vote. It is not a genuine "redirect", it is a keep, but rename. "Islamofascism" should be a redirect to something, I don't know what, perhaps Intolerance in Islam, as it is a subject about which voluminous amounts have been written. My opposition is to using what is really an epithet as the name for an article, especially when it denigrates people by association. I registered this same opinion in the discussion at Arab anti-Semitism. I'm saying keep the content, redirect Islamofascism to a renamed article, one which would ultimately be a better home (or lead article) for most of the content of Islam and anti-Semitism as well. Tomer TALK 11:15, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is borderline, and I was initially inclined to vote delete for the reasons stated above by Mel Etitis and El C. However, this term is starting to be used by reputable journalists on both the left and right. A quote here from Nick Cohen of The Observer during a debate last year:

Far too many people on the Left are inclined to make excuses for Islamic fundamentalism. They accept its misogyny so long as it doesn’t target Western women. They accept its fascism so long as it is anti-American fascism. We now have a Stop the War coalition led by Islamic fascists and Marxist-Leninists, and much of the Left is silent about it. Acknowledging the horrors of Islamic fundamentalism would sully their consciences, which they want to keep clean for the battle against America ... Much of the Stop the War coalition now actually supports a fascist resistance movement and ignores their Iraqi comrades entirely. You have to look back to the Hitler-Stalin pact for a historical parallel. The concept of fascism is being lost. It’s something you hear about on the history channels. But Islamic fascism is still fascism ... Islamofascism has been ripping through the Arab world, often supported by America, and it should be the Left’s worst nightmare. [2] SlimVirgin (talk) 09:14, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Keep. This is a term of widespread use, regardless of whether one believes it is valid or not. the tone of the article is NPOV. --Briangotts 16:43, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As an added note, it is intellectually dishonest for Islamist to create a bogus Judeofascism article, solely for the purpose of demanding this article's deletion. Briangotts
  • Delete, or Merge and Redirect to list of political epithets --AladdinSE 09:46, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • keep' this probably it seems to be in pop use Yuckfoo 06:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Hesitant redirect: I confess to being the person who seeded the current incarnation of the article by farming it out from List of political epithets, and I am not happy with what has happened to the article since. Reason for farming out the content: the Islamofascism entry outgrew its section at that page, and it attracted a large proportion of the comments on the talk page (about 1/3 by my estimate): some other editors of that page also wanted to see the section farmed out. If we could keep the page focussed on the use of the term Islamofascism, I would vote keep, but I see no case for a page of this name being used to discuss the political phenomenon, which would much better be discussed in the Islamism article or a related page. --- Charles Stewart 08:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Phrase being frequently used in general political debate; content disputes are a separate issue. Dbiv 11:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • holy sweet crap... - The last time I read that it was fine, which is an acievement of itself considering how Charged up some people can get on this topic. But now.. it's fallen apart. Merge back into List of political epithets and Redirect --Irishpunktom\talk 15:18, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
    • Are you sure you werent looking at the recently vandalized version. It's been reverted back. Klonimus 23:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Checked Back, seems ok. Keep an eye on this though. keep--Irishpunktom\talk 13:42, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep I hear the expression on CNN all the time. It's not a nice expression but many aren't. UDoN't!wAn* 23:16, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Note User:UDoN't!wAn* is an apparent sock puppet, just signed up on 22 Apr 2005. zen master T 00:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Info should already be covered elsehwere (under less of a cloud of POV hopefully). zen master T 00:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: A neutral article acceptable to all could be written if it stuck to the epithet itself (e.g. history of usage), rather than trying to invent a theory to justify the slur (as User:Klonimus is currently doing). Mirror Vax 00:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Even islamofascists can get their own WP entry! --Mrfixter 01:55, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep article seems fine, reasonably NPOV, and this is a common term for a real phenomenon. ObsidianOrder 03:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Obviously a KEEP! This is a real and growing phenomenon. Porphyria 14:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • keep Last time I checked, the article discussed the usage of the term and separated it clearly from those who the term is used against. Since this term is used a lot these days, it deserves a discussion on its usage, origins etc. It is however most important that we make sure that this article doesn't deviate from that. If links to religious or political ideologies are needed, it should be stated clearly that "islamofascism" is a term usually (mis)used against those. If there are people who would object to the mere existence of the article, well... don't look it up. Where I come from there are people who are personally offended by practically our entire manga section (often for religious or semi-religious reasons), yet the deletion of those articles would bring, indeed, a tear to my eye. Although I don't feel that way about this article, I still think it's a bad idea to delete it, just because people are offended by it. Just make sure the article is as "clinical" as possible and it will all be allright. One could even mention in the article that a lot of people have objections to the term. Shinobu 22:08, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Meaningless fight talk, with a bogus poli-sci sheen. Orwell wrote a brilliant essay emphasizing that the popular epithet "fascist" had degraded to a point that it no longer had any practical meaning beyond "that which the speaker considers objectionable for some undisclosed reason." (Quoting loosely.) Others might disagree on that contention of his, but I see little in contemporary discourse likely to have made Orwell change his mind on this. I'm with him. Plus the compound-word thing feels like Newspeak. Brr. Same problem with Judeofascism, which I also voted to delete. BrandonYusufToropov 15:20, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete: POV attack targeting religions should not be kept. --Ragib 15:15, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete I agree with Ragib. This is nothing more than a thinly disguised pretext for slamming a wide spectrum of people by squeezing them all into one contrived bucket. What an embarassingly awful article. What's next, "christofascism"? --Lee Hunter 20:37, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep If I get a vote, I vote keep, it's interesting and added a link to a CNN story that was on tonight about Aryan Nation wanting to be buddies with al Qaeda. Might be interesting. Walkingeagles 04:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I suppose we should apply the same decision made here to the newly created (and gruesome, watch out!) Islamic fascism that Walkingeagles just made. --Dmcdevit 05:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, this term does get used so we should cover it. Rhobite 05:45, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Do not delete this article. Perhaps some changes could be made in terms of neutrality, and once it is acceptable, protect it from further editing (other than through the discussion page). Otherwise i see no problem here. It is a notable issue. Once again Keep
    • Unsigned vote by User:Aeroflot on 06:35, 24 Apr 2005. I moved it out of Mel's comments section. Klonimus 08:24, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of political epithets. As others have said, the article itself might be useful material for an article on authoritarian currents in contemporary Islamic politics, or something like that. But the word itself is inflammatory, pejorative, inaccurate, and misleading, suitable perhaps for op-ed discourse, but not as the primary title for a Wikipedia article. I beg others who voted "keep" for this article -- especially those who voted "keep" based upon User:Islamist's behavior -- to reconsider their positions. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:42, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Comments

Don't place votes in this section

(copied here from Talk:Islamofascism)

You can, of course, create any number of words using the formula: X + Fascist tendencies = Xofascism. How about 'Graecofascism'? 'Sinofascism'? 'Hindofascism'? The trouble is, having created the term, it's also easy to create a concept to go with it, and then to create a history. You don't even need to go outside the facts; there'll always be, in any nationality, race, or religion that's been around for a while examples of people or groups acting badly. The term 'fascism' is being used in such a Usenet/school-debating-society way that that's all you need. Wikipedia isn't here to invent new concepts, nor to parrot whatever nonsense the U.S. neo-cons have come up with as they flail around trying to find reasons to attack other countries. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • I am not sure you are being fair to school-debating-society's ;-) Dalf | Talk 22:32, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Don't forget Wikifascism :) TigerShark 12:27, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm seriously considering creating an article on Christofascism if this article and Judeofascism aren't deleted or redirected. Why should only two of the three main Abrahamic religions have an insulting POV article with the suffix "-fascism" attached? Or would that constitute WP:POINT? Firebug 17:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • It would of course be deleted by the same faction who want this epithet kept. Grace Note 16:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Not necessarily so... I for one would vote to redirect Christofascism (which would be a pretty obvious neologism, btw) to Christian Fundamentalism. -- 8^D BDAbramsongab 16:49, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
        Wow. I guess I'd consider such a vote as an irrefutable demonstration that there are people voting on such issues who haven't the foggiest notion what they're talking about. Tomer TALK 23:48, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Of course, Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hinduist, Buddhist, etc. 'fascism' are a frightening reality, involving ...'the most heavenly exctacies of religious fervor, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimantalism'... [towards] a new high-tech Dark Ages. But I have yet to see the oh' shorthand used in any serious exposition (from within revolutionary currents, at least, where I've seen such concepts elaborated on at some length). E.g. [3] El_C 21:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As the article is developed, it's becoming more and more distasteful (and many of the comments made by those who want to keep it betray an ignorance of the issues here, as well as a disturbing emotional tone). We're told, for example, that some Islamic leaders allied with fascists in the second World War, but no mention is made of the fact that the fascists in question were Christians, and the purely pragmatic, non-ideological nature of the contacts is not properly explained. There's in fact no indication that any of the Muslims involved held any sort of fascist belief. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Hitler was not a Christian, he was an occult follower of the "Thule Society," a pagan group that was highly influential in the Nazi hierarchy. User:Porphyria 00:05, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Mel: Your assertion that the contacts between Islamic leaders and European Christian fascists were non-ideological in nature seems to overlook recorded statements of, e.g., the former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini. User:Mike Thomas 00:00, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm arguing this in two places – here, and on Talk:Islamofascism – and the result is sometimes a bit disjointed. It seems clear that al-Husseyni was ideologically involved with Nazism (just as some English aristocrats, royals, and politicians were), but any general Arab support for Nazism shouldn't be attributed to so-called Islamofascism.

Here's the logic, folks: I identify a Nazi-sympathizing Muslim. Islam therefore has a fascist dimension. Hmmm. Does the failure of the Catholic Church to vigorously and explicitly oppose Nazi crimes against Jews justify an entry for Catholifacism?

I suppose that what's offensive about this article (and the comments of some people on this page) is that, whereas we talk about Italian fascists, and Spanish fascists, and Greek fascists, etc., rather than Christofascists, when it comes to the Muslim world it's OK to lump all the Islamic countries and groups together. The turning of Judeofascism into a redirect presumably involved a recognition of the same fact in that case; there are of course Jewish fascists (Jews are no more immune to human stupidity and nastiness than any other group), and many people have seen the actions of certain Israeli politicians and parties as having fascist aspects — but it's wrong to use the general, smearing, and to my mind bigoted term 'Judeofascism'. Why on Earth can't the same reasonableness be applied here? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Islamic/Islamo Fascism

For those of us learned in Middle Eastern history, it is clear that fascist-derived ideologies and Islamism have always been violently opposed (see:Hama Massacre). The fascist-derived ideologies in the Middle East such as the Kateab Party, the Baath party, and the Syrian Social Nationalist Party have been almost entirely supported by Christians or minority groups in the Arab world that feared Islamism. The founder of the SSNP was a Christian, as the founder of the Baath was Greek orthodox. The Kataeb was founded by Bachir Gemayel, a Maronite Christian militant. All these ideologies were officially secular but had mainly Christian support. Islamic fascism is a contradiction in all senses of the word. Islamism has no ideas about racial superiority either. That is why it is utterly ridiculous to have an Islamic fascism article.

My views on this article are that it is a way for WalkingEagles and Klonimus to insert their own judgement into an Anti-Islamic term that should frankly be listed under political epithets. Just because neo-cons have started using this term more does not make it factually or historically correct.Yuber 16:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Yuber, Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia ergo it is encyclopedic, It's pretty clear at this point that Islamofascism is a widely used term with a specfic meaning, and hence deserves inclusion in WP. Just because you and your buddies don't like the term, or think it's anti-Islamic, has no bearing on the matter. Klonimus 01:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Proposal to Resort this VfD

IMHO it would be nice if thise VFD could be reformated along the lines of.

  • Evidence of Notability
  • Keep Votes
  • Delete Votes
  • Redirect Votes
  • Comments

The current VfD would make a nice article in itself. Controversy surrounding Islamfascism anyone? Klonimus 01:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Question for all who vote to keep

If a coalition of hate groups (may Allah(swt) forbid) started talking about a Jewish conspiracy to control the global media, coined a single catch-word for that supposed conspiracy, and kept posting that single catch-word on blogs until it started showing up on Google, would that new word deserve an entry in a responsibly -edited encyclopedia? (Not a rhetorical query, I'd like your answer, please.)BrandonYusufToropov 17:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is in fact such a term. It's called Jewish Supremacism. It gets thousands of Google Hits and was coined by a White Supremacist. It is merely a political epithet just like Islamofascism.Yuber 17:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well Yuber, go make an article on it. Klonimus 22:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Why would I? That would be hypocritical of me, and I have no interest in making articles just to degrade religions and people, unlike some people here.Yuber 23:10, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's also Zionist Occupied Government, for which we have a decent article that treats the slur as a slur and doesn't spend time on the backgrounds or political views of U.S. neocons. As it should. —Charles P. (Mirv) 19:09, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Go make an article about Jewish Influence on American Politics Klonimus 22:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If I were going to do that, which I'm not, why would I use that awkward title when Zionist Occupied Government and variants get thousands of Google hits? —Charles P. (Mirv) 23:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Nigger" gets thousands of Google hits too, but we don't make "Nigger" the primary title or even a redirect to "African American". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:20, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Precisely. Yet we (or Klonimus and co., at least) use "Islamofascism" as the primary title. —Charles P. (Mirv) 00:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Mirv, ZOG is a term used by racist kooks, Islamofascism is a commonly used word in the media when talking about totalitarian Islamism. Klonimus 01:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Islamofascism" is similarly a term used by racist kooks and political polemicists. In academic discourse, for example, it is a non-starter. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:42, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am unsure how many people voting to keep this article are doing so out of a misguided attempt to present articles on all phrases that enter common parlance. This is not and has never been the objective of a responsible encyclopedia. (Is there an entry in the Columbia Encyclopedia for "trailer trash"? Or "retard"? Or "wetback"?) This is the kind of pejorative we're dealing with, and if you don't think so, you're not thinking very hard. BrandonYusufToropov 01:20, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Still waiting for someone who voted to keep to respond to this (non-rhetorical) question. Once again, it is:

If a coalition of hate groups (may Allah(swt) forbid) started talking about a Jewish conspiracy to control the global media, coined a single catch-word for that supposed conspiracy, and kept posting that single catch-word on blogs until it started showing up on Google, would that new word deserve an entry in a responsibly -edited encyclopedia?BrandonYusufToropov 19:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyone who answers your question can probably expect to have his words used against him in some way. You're not exactly being subtle about it. Rhobite 20:02, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
I translate as: Yes, there is a double standard at work here, but I'd rather not discuss it. BrandonYusufToropov 20:06, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No there isn't such a term, but if it existed then it would merit inclusion and good article. I can understand why you might find casual use of the term islamofascism offensive. How ever the term is in wide use, and a comprensive encyclopedia must document it. This is independant of the moral value of the word itself when used to describe totalitarian Islamism. Klonimus 01:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
With respect, I can't help noticing that you're ducking the question I posed. BrandonYusufToropov 23:01, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • I have not and do not indend to vote, but I just wanted to say, perhaps the problem here is systemic bias against Islam due to lack of editors. Ideally, I'm sure we all agree that whatever the decision is, delete, redirect, or whatever, should be applied consistenly to equivalent articles. We all know that there are probably fascist tendencies everywhere. So consistency should be easily achieved, escpecially with all of this interest. --Dmcdevit 20:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • There are plenty of people ready to insert Islamic bias at the drop of a burqa. Klonimus 22:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • To say that is intentionally dishonest. How could anyone imply Islamic topics have the same scope as Western ones? Compare Israel and Belgium, for example, to Western Sahara and Mali. I think the idea that a because term is heard of (it's certainly not wide) makes it encyclopedic is just wrong. That's for a dictionary. There has to be something to it to be encyclopedic. And, just wondering, where is Islamodemocracy? Surely that's just as common a phenomenon... --Dmcdevit 22:32, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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