Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales

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VFD

On 13 April 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Kate Middleton for a record of the discussion. – ABCD 21:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

— JIP | Talk 06:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

If no one objects, due to their breakup, I will be deleting this page as of later today. -Tom

Considering the length of their relationship (4 years) it would seem premature to continue to vote this article for deletion until such times as she is no longer seriously involved with the Prince. Of course people are interested in her. She may well be the next Princess of Wales. I had never heard of her until a netscape article on Wiliam's upcoming Military training mentioned her and linked me here. While I am only casually interested in such things, I suspect there will be many others clicking on the link who follow this stuff passionately. Perhaps the person who keeps voting for delete is hoping the prince will marry them? Lisa Pollison 1/17/06

Totally agree. --Ross UK 21:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it is Kate because she doesn't want any publicity? ANON, 8 June 2006

Probably. Well, to be honest, unless there is a ring on her finger and a wedding planned, I am not sure why everyone is making such a big deal about this girl. She could be the next Queen consort and maybe not. I mean, when Prince Charles was dating, the media thought every women he dated was going to be his future wife. We all see how that turned out. I think that people somewhat question William and Kate's relationship because it has been so strange. It is not exactly the romance going on between Prince Harry and Chesly Davy or a young couple in love. Every relationship is different, however, she is his grilfriend, there should be something more going on between them and oddly it does not seem to be there. Which is why some people seem confused. RosePlantagenet

Rose, please find some other place to post your personal opinions and musings about royal romances. They do not belong in a discussion of biographical, encyclopedic facts. There are many "royal website" forums in which you can do this and where you would be welcomed. Wikipedia is looking for firm, factual information.

Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Talk_page and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Talk_page#Basic_rules_for_all_talk_pages. Thank you. RosePlantagenet

This woman has her own article why?...

This woman is unimportant. What importance does she have in any circle besides that of her immediate friends/family and such? Being the mere girlfriend of a Prince is hardly worthy of an article in an Encyclopedia. Not only are there no plans to marry, but until so, she is nothing but a woman who got lucky by landing a monarch, who (btw) has no political power anyway. <-- HAHAHAHA She has way more importance than YOU I am sure!

There's a very good chance this woman will be Queen one day. Oh, and wikipedia is not a soapbox. 128.232.242.178 14:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but it seems that many people on this site and Britian are hopeful that William and Kate will marry someday. I do not see much harm in having the article for the time she is with William. There is a very good chance they will marry and a very good chance that they will not. If not then they can delete this article or change it. There is no way to know if she will be the next Queen because they are so young now. RosePlantagenet 18:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Er, a very good chance implies, to me at least, greater than 50% probability. So according to you the total probablity of them getting married or not getting married is greater than 100%. 145.253.108.22 11:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

It appears you missed my point. It simply means they will either marry or they will not. How people choose to percieve that is their own perspective. RosePlantagenet 13:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

She's all over the news -- that's why she has her own article. I just turned off the television where BBC News 24 is running a piece about her. I log on on the internet and AOL UK's top stories include her. Companies are creating memorabilia about her. The first in line to the throne is issuing statements about her. I have republican tendencies, yet that doesn't prevent me from seeing her obvious notability for an encyclopaedia. What a silly discussion. Artichoke84 17:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I nominated this article for deletion in Oct 05 when it was a reasonable question but she has become much more notable since then and I would oppose deletion now, SqueakBox 18:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the issue here isn't importance, it's notability. A lot of people would argue that many actors in Hollywood are simply unimportant but they still have national name-recognition. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

This person is notable because she is going out with William Windsor who is the grandson of the current UK monarch. Until such time as we get rid of the whole scrounging lot of them, the Windsor family, and the people they have relationships with will remain notable. Her achievements are about as great as her boyfriends, he's famous for no good reason, and so is she. Even if they split up, or he retires into private life like the good little republican he is, they will both still remain notable. She'll always be notable for having been his biatch. Sad but true. Notability has got nothing to do with fame or achievement, see Wikipedia:Notability. Alun 13:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

How much longer should this article stay here? It was nominated for deletion awhile ago because they were dating (not engaged or married) and now they've broken up. Maybe if he marries her or proposes (not likely, since they've broken up) the article could be put back, but for now it seems pointless. Especially since in it talks about relationships in William's article. Stephe1987 03:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

How can I help?

Is there some reason why people object to including purely straightforward, factual information in this article? I really do not believe that PEOPLE magazine has any "inside information" concerning the Queen's opinions of Ms. Middleton or her relationship with Prince William. Why has this silly, poorly-written paragraph been added?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.72.102.130 (talk • contribs)

I don't know who wrote the above because it is unsigned. I want to offer my services to this page. If there is anything I can do to help, such as find citations, and verify anything, please let me know. I am one who freely admits to being captivated by the coverage of this possible future Princess of Wales, Queen, etc. It is silly, I know, but nevertheless, I would be lying if I didn't acknowledge it. I would love to assist with this article. What can I do?--Ashley Rovira 16:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion about People magazine is irrelevant to this article. Material in articles must be sourced, as is the relevant section about People and the queen. If you have a verifiable source which contradicts this sourced information, feel free to include it. Otherwise, it's perfectly relevant for the article as it's verifiable sourced information. The article isn't saying that the queen believes something; the article is saying, according to People magazine, the queen believes something.207.69.138.12 21:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. RosePlantagenet 18:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The article appears to say that a Palace spokesman said the queen believes it, which I don't believe for a second. A spokesman is someone authorised to speak on behalf of the person or organisation they represent - a "friend", "source" or "insider" is not a spokesman. Can anyone confirm that the People article even claims that a Palacespokesman said the Queen "would prefer to see Prince William take the relationship slowly and not rush into anything"? There is no direct quote in the Wikipedia article or citation. If People magazine was really told this by a Palace spokesman, it is a surprising there has not been more coverage as it would be a major story in the UK. Edit - forgot to sign Hobson 23:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can. I read the article to check to make sure the information was correct. I am sure if People Magazine instead said something like, "Spokemen for the palace said Kate and William are engaged to be married." Or something to that effect, you would never believe that either without hearing it from several other sources. I got you.

Anyway, as someone said above, this is pointless. The point of any article is to put in every bit of detail whether it is agreeable or not. When you start putting in details that only you want to believe, then it defeats the purpose of the article and it mine as well be deleted. RosePlantagenet 12:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It's honestly not about what I *want* to believe. Please assume good faith:) The word spokesman is very important in this context. If a spokesman says something it is an official statement. If an "insider" says it, then it is a rumour. A Palace spokesman speaks on behalf of Buckingham Palace, which ultimately means the Queen. I have read quite a few stories about Kate Middleton and never once seen a paper or magazine claim to have a comment from a Palace spokesman about the Queen's personal feelings on the matter. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff I haven't read but would you mind awfully if I ask you to link to the story or, if it is not on the web, to reproduce the section with comments from a Palace spokesman here? I have found one story from People Magazine dealing with similar issues - this one, http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,1564163,00.html - but it cites "friends" and "insiders" as its sources.

Also, there's no need for an encyclopedia article to include every bit of detail if by bit of detail you mean every newspaper or magazine article on the topic. There have been dozens of stories every day in the UK alone for many weeks now! We don't need to mention them all. What makes most sense is sticking to what we know, eg that Miss Middleton and Prince William are in a relationship, that she has appeared alongside the Queen at at least once again, that neither of them have made any public comment on the prospect of marriage, that they are the subject of intense media speculation (there have been lots of news reports about them) - I think all those things are facts, and there's plenty to say even by just sticking to the things that are strictly factual. Hobson 20:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand. I do not care enough to get upset, it is fun to have a good debate. This site is full of them too.

I still disagree. You say that you have read several articles about her. How do we know that the artciles you read are even reliable? If they do not suggest a palace spokemen said it, then where did they get their information from? Who did they get their information from? Unless these people have spent one on one time with Royal Family which is a tight circle of people, and the Royal Family is not exactly known for telling everyone their feelings, again where did these articles get their information? You could say Prince William's friends said it but how is that different from a palace spokemen? Furthermore, I doubt the couple would want their friends talking to the media. And, maybe that spokemen did not want to give out their name. In other words, no one knows how true any of these articles are, it is only opinions and guessing. The only ones who know the real story is Middleton, William and the Royal Family. Anything else is spectulation.

Also, the spokemen probably is telling the truth. The Royal Family has not had the best track record for good relationships. Three of Queen Elizabeth's children divorced, and they were messy divorces. It would be smart on the family's part to make sure the future generation does not make the same mistakes. If William and Kate rush into this it could turn out very bad. Also, inorder for her to be a princess, Middleton will have to be groomed and advised. She came from a normal family background, she has not been raised to deal with that kind of spotlight. It can be very stressful to have everyone watch your every move. And, her life will never be private if she continues to date and someday marry Prince William. This is no fairly tale and it is real life, she will have to be trained and groomed to handle it. When she said, "I did nothing to court publicity", that was telling. She can not expect to get William and somehow avoid the extreme baggage that comes with him, that is either native or extremely irrational thinking.

If you do not put details from reliable magazines and articles into this section then there really is no reason for her to have an article. Since, she is still living, not married to William and no biography's have been written about her; what else is there to write? The article mine as well be deleted. As someone said above, she is not that important yet. RosePlantagenet 14:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You make a very good point about the difficulty in knowing whether articles are reliable, and whether they got their information from anyone who really knows what they are talking about. This is why the use of the word "spokesman" in the Wikipedia entry is important. A spokesman is a person authorised to speak on behalf of the person they claim to represent, and what they have to say can be considered more reliable than comments made to journalists by "friends" or "sources", who as you say could be anyone! A Palace spokesman is someone who works in the Buckingham Palace press office - these people: http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page4163.asp I asked if anyone could confirm that People Magazine had reported that a Palace spokesman said the Queen felt a certain way. You said you can. So please will you do that? I have tried to find the article myself, but it doesn't seem to exist on the People website. Please will you give us the exact wording of the article? Hobson 23:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Really? I am surprised. Usually on their website they have archives of past articles. Here is the link http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,1564163,00.html. This is the issue it came out of, and you will have to get the magazine for the full story.

Oh, and if you want, why not put up the information from the articles you have read? It certainly can only help the article. Like I said, until there is something like a biography written about her, articles are all we got. RosePlantagenet 16:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, but I do not consider PEOPLE Magazine to be a "reliable" source on any subject.68.72.109.240 00:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The link you provided leads to an article with comments from "a palace insider", "family friend" and someone writing a book about the couple. The magazine doesn't even claim to have got the comment from a spokesman in that article. Hobson 03:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you did not like the link to the actual article? I guess you do know what PEOPLE Magazine is, oh well. So all you have is the Sun? That is exteremly more reliable then a magazine. Nice of you to add it in. I thought you would have more but please continue to add what you have it is most helpful. RosePlantagenet 19:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the article partly because you deleted my edits without any discussion but mainly because the source you cite does not (as I have pointed out many times!) actually say what the Wikipedia entry currently claims it does. I linked way above to the article you are citing - http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,1564163,00.html - and pointed out that it does not claim a Palace spokesman said anything. However you then linked to the same article as evidence that People magazine claimed a Palace spokesman had made the comments:) It is not evidence of that - it does not say that. I am fairly new to Wikipedia and I am not certain how the arbitration system works, but rather than get into a revert war I am going to see if there is any way we can ask another experienced editor to take a look. Hobson 19:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I did not delete anything you wrote. I reverted it because the last person put in something strange. I did suggest you add in your own information so there was no reason to delete it. You, however, did delete my information. I understand you are new, but you can not go and delete people's information (especially if it sourced) simply because you disagree. Just because you can not get the magazine from which the article came from, to make sure the source is true, does not mean the information is not accurate. That will cause an edit war. Nor is it right to imply that the Sun tabloid or all magazines you have read are more reliable then every other magazine. I am sorry if you are so upset and if you need to read up on the rules this should help you. Please read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Check_your_facts

If you would like to talk to someone else then please do. It might be a good idea to at some point protect this page, as well. I have been noticing a lot of non-registered users removing and deleting information.

RosePlantagenet 20:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Deleted talk page content

The debate above is not about a specific article, it is about the importance of accuracy and sources. It's important it stays in the talk page for a while and not just an archive. Hobson 20:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I re-added in the How can I help? section. Just trying to clean up a bit. I would leave in the third opinion section, however, unless Jossi is planning to comment there does not seem to be much need for it. But if you want it there then go for it. Oh and never worry about it. Archiving is not deleting, people always can continue to comment on the subject on the regular discussion page so it is not gone forever. RosePlantagenet 16:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for adding that back in. The article as it currently reads is correct, as far as I can see! It even cites the People article twice, one of them being a citation I put in on January 21, so hopefully we are both happy with the current wording:) The point I made about the distinction between a spokesman and an insider applies to any article, not just one in People. It could well come up again, as media reports about Kate Middleton are full of comments from friends, sources etc. This is why it is important for the debate to be visible for a while. Hobson 20:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Jewish?

Kate Middleton has been added in to the category "British Jews". This seems to follow an edit on January 22 by 84.148.1.115 which stated the Middleton family was of Jewsih origin. Another editor has changed this to read "British and Jewish origin". This may be correct for all I know, but is it something that needs verifying? I am wondering: 1) Is there any verification that the Middleton family is of Jewish origin? 2) Does it make sense to use a phrase such as "British and Jewish origin", as Britain is a country while Jewish refers to either ethnicity or religion or both. A person cannot be "half British and half Jewish" for example. Equally, a person would not be described as of "British and Anglo-Saxon origin". 3) If her family does have some sort of "Jewish origin", does this make her an English Jew? Hobson 17:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I am going to rephrase it. British is a nationality and Jewish is a religion. Although, people seem to think their religion is a form of nationality as well. I never quite figured that one out but then again I am not a very religious person. Kate Middleton's nationality is British as I am assuming both her parents are from Britian as is her many of her family members going back some generations. As for being Jewish, on her mother's side, her mother's family is Jewish. Their last name is Goldsmith. That is a Jewish last name. RosePlantagenet 18:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, she is of Jewish origin, then she can be at English Jews category, because it's not a category only for Judaism people, but from the Jewish nation! When some famous film director or Nobel Prize winner has a Jewish great-granmother or father she is Jewish! Why not now? Kowalmistrz 19:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

A person with a single Jewish great-grandparent is not usually considered to be a Jew, especially if they do not define themselves as one, whoever they are. Possibly if there is un-interupted female descent they may be (if your mother's mother's mother was a Jew then you may be, even if you are the Pope, according to some definitions. See

Main article: Who is a Jew?

, although of course Wikipedia is not a sufficient source on which to base Wikipedia entries). It seems unlikely in Miss Middleton's case, as the name Goldsmith presumably came from a male ancestor. By the way, having the surname Goldsmith does not mean someone is a Jew, even if it is a surname some Jews have. I don't know if anyone has found any source at all to verify that she has any Jewish ancestors, beyond her mother's maiden name. Perhaps she does, but it seems to me like quite a leap to say that therefore "she is an English Jew" as Wikipedia currently does. I think Rose has improved the article, but question 1) above still stands - is there any verification that the Middleton family is of Jewish origin (or partly of Jewish origin)? Hobson 19:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Rose, "Goldsmith" is not automatically a "Jewish" surname, it is merely an occupation-derived surname, like many others in many countries. It means only that the bearer has a goldsmith somewhere in his or her ancestry. You surely do not believe that all goldsmiths in the history of the world were Jewish? Perhaps you are familiar with Oliver Goldsmith, son of an Anglican curate and author of "The Vicar of Wakefield"?68.72.108.38 03:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, whoever wrote "Michael Middleton, who's family," and "Carole Goldsmith, who's family," I have corrected those egregious errors and changed them to "whose".68.72.108.38 03:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed your rude remarks and kept your statements. There is no need to be rude and talk down to people just because you disagree with what they say. If you feel that you are the most knowledgeable and want to help that is great. Otherwise, speaking down to people and deleting other editors comments is not helping this article or Wikipedia.

Anyway, I agree, Hobson. I think that we should start looking for a source that would help to reference it better. Sooner or later someone is going to write an article about it. We already found a source about her families coal mining roots. This way if someone should question it there will be some reference. I am glad to see a picked up interest in her ancestry. RosePlantagenet 12:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

It's been a few days since I asked if anyone could verify that Kate Middleton was an English Jew, as Wikipedia currently says she is. One of the reasons this is important (aside from the need always to be accurate) is that if William did marry an Jewish woman, his children - direct heirs to the throne - would be considered by many to be Jews. This would be notable, and is not something Wikipedia should get wrong. Of course I know thet are not married, nor engaged, but the only reason Middleton has a Wikipedia entry at all is because she is in a long-term relationship with William. Hobson 00:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I think someone just assumed based on the last name and added it, because I can't see a reliable source for it anywhere. It could be true - though there are certainly non-Jewish Goldsmiths in England. BTW, apparently the Princes may already be Jewish in the halachaic sense - I remember seeing some kind of weird and lengthy family tree of Princess Diana that went back to a direct female Jewish ancestor around 1700, though it may have been unverified. Mad Jack 01:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sure, you can find all kinds of interesting things in people's family trees when you take the time and really research the material. Until someone can find a reference about Kate Middleton's Jewish ancestry it is probably best to leave it out for now. RosePlantagenet 14:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No probably about it, see WP:BLP, any un refenced addition to this affect will be deleted, SqueakBox 19:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

This family tree definitely answers the question - [1] - she isn't Jewish at all. The "Goldsmith" lines tracks back to about 1850 England, and even that original Goldsmith ancestor was married in a church. Plenty of non-Jewish Goldsmiths, and I'm sure this great-great-etc.-grandparent was one of them. Mad Jack 08:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, someone has tried to reference that site already. Her Goldsmith ancestors were probably not Jewish, as no one has found evidence of it. However, I would not use that website to reference her ancestry. As the site states, the information was not researched extensively, therefore, it is not conculsive proof. Sites on the internet, even ancestry.com, are not always 100% accurate. You need to becareful when using a site like this as a reference and make sure there is other evidence to back it up. It is very easy to make connections that simply do not exist. RosePlantagenet 16:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Hannah Pennell?

Seems someone has changed the names around in this article, changing Kate Middleton to Catherine "Hannah" Pennell? 125.238.32.121 04:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Ben

That's called vandalism. And pretty childish at that. I have restored the earlier "Kate" version. - fdewaele, 30 January 2007, 9:30.

Yes, there has been more vandalism to the article, lately. As Kate Middleton becomes more popular there will probably be more. If it continues, then I think we should ask that the article be protected from unregistered users, they seem to be the ones commiting most of the vandalism. RosePlantagenet 13:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Problems

It appears to me that some recent additions to this entry are veering away rather strongly from the NPOV standard. This is, necessarily, a personal impression, but I sense that these additions have been made by someone who feels hostility towards Middleton, such as can be found on many royal discussion sites and forums. Since some of the information added comes from U.K. tabloids, by no means the most reliable sources for anything, perhaps it should not be included unless independently verified and documented?68.72.82.70 22:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The article as it stands seems to be saying that sections of the British media have started criticising her (as opposed to suggesting the claims in the media are true), which seems notable to me. However it really needs to cite an authorative source to state that the Daily Mail (which is certainly an important newspaper in the UK) has for the first time portrayed her in a forward and unflattering light. Reading the article cited, I agree with the opinion of the editor who characterised the article that way. But it is independent research. Hobson 21:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not add that last section. And, as I have said to you several times in the past, 68.72.82.70, if you feel you have all this knowledge on Kate Middleton then by all means put it in the article and source it. Otherwise, I sense you really do not know much and have nothing to contribute except to be rude to other editors.

There are no other reliable sources on Kate Middleton as her only claim to fame is being Prince William's girlfriend. There are no biographys, close hand accounts, she is not blue blooded (no royal or noble blood that can be traced) and so on. Therefore, the only sources out there are these magazines and papers. If editors do not approve of those then this article should be deleted as it does not belong on Wiki. My questions are, if the Daily Mail says great things about her that is reliable? However, if the Daily Mail says something bad or what other editors do not want to hear, that needs further research? That is not logical. How could putting in a few unflattering comments to balance the article out be any worse then only putting positive things in just because some people happen to like this girl? Again, the only options are, either editors put information from magazines, newspapers, tabloids and so on in her article as those are the only sources. If not, then either all the information except for her early life should be taken out or the article itself should be deleted.

Oh, Hobson, I fixed the wording from the "the paper" to "the article" it seemed to flow better. If that is okay. RosePlantagenet 15:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

My concern is this: if these claims have appeared in "The Daily Mail" and "The Sun," but not in mainstream papers, there is a reason: the claims have not been verified by journalistic staffs bound to ethical codes that insist on fact-checking before printing mere rumors and gossip. If, on the other hand, such papers have indeed printed this information, then it is fair game. My view is that precisely BECAUSE there are no biographies or fully-verified sources as yet, then the entry should avoid tabloid rumors and gossip and anything that appears in celebrity magazines and so-called "biographies." The entry should be confined to verified factual information only.

A reasonable option would be to include the gossip but with very careful caveats for readers. For example, one could say, "The Daily Mail published such-and-such, but the information has not been verified."

I'm also concerned about tone. As I mentioned earlier, the recent additions seem to have been added by someone who is hostile to Ms. Middleton. This is not appropriate for an encyclopedia entry.68.72.84.185 23:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point nor am I opposed to what you are saying about the sources. The article is starting to sound like a tabloid instead of an encyclopedia entry. The Daily Mail and the Sun are tabloids. Tabloids are known for not always being accurate. However, if you include caveats for readers, that makes sense, but you can not just add it for the negative gossip about Kate Middleton, you also have to add it in for the positive, as well. You can not assume that everything positive that is said about her is accurate and everything negative are rumors and lies. I am sure she is a nice girl, but she is human. Even the nicest person can do not so nice things and make mistakes.

The other issue that may come up is, if you type in caveats for readers then all the information becomes questionable. If it is questionable then everything written in this article by the magazines and tabloids would not be considered accurate and would have to be removed. I most certainly agree with you that this article should have nothing but factual information, however, a chunk of this article would have to go. The only parts that would be left is the introduction and her early life, with maybe a tiny piece of information about her relationship with William.

Maybe, it could help to clean up the article. And, any information put into the article further would have to be well researched. At least until one of the following two things happen she and William get married, which there will be hundreds of future books written about her or they break up, in which cause the article would be deleted. RosePlantagenet 16:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Most of the information in this article is indeed questionable. The fact that there is a lack of verifiable info is not an argument to keep unverified stuff in just to increase the word count. I believe it is sensible to include some mention of unsourced tabloid gossip in this specific article because Ms Middleton's notability depends entirely on the widespread speculation that she might one day marry a direct heir to the throne, and therefore the attitude of the British media to her is significant (and perhaps the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand media). But the facts here are that popular British newspapers are saying certain things about her. The things they say may or may not be facts and cannot be taken as verified because they appear in a newspaper. The Daily Mail article which is cited appears to report Ms Middleton's attitude to the media - not just what she does but what she *thinks*. Eg "Kate Middleton completes a well-rehearsed drill; one that has become something of a joke among herself and her circle." The journalist has no idea what Kate Middleton considers to be a joke:)

It's a style of writing, very different to the style used when reporting, for example, a serious court case. Newspapers need to do it when they report on someone like Ms Middleton.

What can be included in this article, quite sensibly I think, is something about the media's treatment of Ms Middleton. Even that needs to be interpreted by an authoritative source. Eg, who says the Daily Mail writing a vaguely critical article is "Trouble for Middleton"? Us? Hobson 22:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I would not say it is trouble for Middleton either, at least for the first two paragraphs, because it is the first time anything negative has been written about her since she started dating William. I think that she probably has used her new found fame to her advantage on occassion. Who would not in her place? However, it is uncertain if she actually did those particular things.

The last paragraph might be trouble for her because William was seen flirting and groping three women at night clubs, recently, and it is true because there were pictures of him doing it. I was happy to see the sentence stating she allows William to flirt with other women and does not care about it was taken out. Speaking as a woman, myself, no matter who the man is, there is no woman out there who would not be upset nor willing to tolerate it long term. And, the law of averages says that sooner or later William could meet another girl, it is possible. So, surprised it would not bother her in some way.

The Gladys section, Prince William has already stated in an interview he does not plan to marry till he is twenty-eight. Therefore, that is proof as to why he is continuing his military career rather than getting married. And, as the heir to the British throne, he is not going to be allowed to live with Middleton without the couple being married. This proves that history is now repeating itself because his father choose to do the same, and Camilla ended up marrying someone else. Therefore, the speculation is veriable that Middleton could become the next Camilla. RosePlantagenet 13:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've made some changes which I'll explain here. I made it clear that speculation about what the army had told Prince William came from an anonymous source. This is very different to William's comment that he doesn't want to marry until he is at least 28, which is a direct quote from the Prince. The idea that his comments about getting married has anything to do with what the "security source" quoted in the Daily Mail article supposedly said is original research, and I took it out. As for the Gladys stuff - to say Kate Middleton might become the next Camilla could mean all sorts of things (I would take it to mean she might become his mistress while William marries someone else). The article referenced is a piece comparing some clothes Kate wore on one occasion to the type of clothes Camilla wears. It does not suggest she might become "the next Camilla". I don't see how a journalists opinion about some of Middleton's clothes is in any way notable, and took it out. Hobson 19:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought it meant that people figured that Kate would marry someone else and then be William's mistress while he marries someone else too. That is why I was not sure if it should come out. I removed the Gladys section and moved the paragraph to the Recent section. I also added in the professional obligations that William will be doing along with his military service that were discussed in the article. RosePlantagenet 15:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect information

This is the first time I am attempting to use the Talk page, and I'm not familiar with the protocol yet. I am utilising this method because in reading the encyclopedic entry for Kate Middleton I discovered some incorrect information.

Kate's Father Michael Middleton is not in any way related to a coal-mining family. He is in fact related to the wealthy and well-known Lupton family, who mainly reside in Leeds, Yorkshire, where Michael Middelton was born. Kate's mother Carole Middleton (nee' Goldsmith) is the person whose ancestors were, in fact, coal miners. I have links to information that substantiates both Michael Middleton's lineage and Carole Middleton's lineage, but the links I have are available to anyone; I'm wondering why the incorrect information has not been corrected yet? I actually see several blocks of incorrect information, and I was wondering why it has not as yet been corrected? Also, what is the purpose of the "Gladys" section? Kate Middleton has not been referred to as Gladys more than one time, how is it logical to name an entire section in an encyclopedia entry with a nickname that has actually been applied to the Duchess of Cornwall, but not to Kate Middleton herself more than one time? Can that be corrected as well? Lastly, the current entry does not seem to have a Neutral Point Of View, like a person would expect an encyclopedia entry to have. This entry seemed to be be more normal in appearance last year, but in recent months it has changed to look more like personal blog entries rather than a neutral encyclopedia entry. How can that be corrected? I would like to make some corrections and adjustments, but I did not want to do so without finding out who the editors were, and what things I am allowed to adjust. Thank you for assisting me with this.Mapleleaf07 09:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)mapleleaf07

Be bold. Click on the link for more information:) Hobson 19:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess the person who put that in never checked it out. I will fix the part about her family's roots. I have only seen one website which discusses her family tree, however, many editors have been careful not to use that site. The reason for this is because many sites that discuss people's ancestry are not always accurate and it can be easy to make connections that simply are not there. That site in particular already states at the top that the research was not "extensive", therefore, it should not be in the article. If an editor wants to put her lineage in the article, they have to use more reliable sources then those found on the internet to back it up. So far editors seem to be happy with the Daily Mail because it is as close to reliable as anyone can get about Middleton's family history.

The Gladys section, Prince William has already stated in an interview he does not plan to marry till he is twenty-eight. Therefore, that is proof as to why he is continuing his military career rather than getting married. And, as the heir to the British throne, he is not going to be allowed to live with Middleton without the couple being married. This proves that history is now repeating itself because his father choose to do the same, and Camilla ended up marrying someone else. Therefore, the speculation is veriable that Middleton could become the next Camilla. I think the editor simply titled it that because of those reasons.

If you check out the section above that says "NPOV Problems", we are currently discussing how to make the article better. I would like to note that you did the right thing by discussing first and not editing it is always more helpful when people do that to avoid edit wars and wrong information begin added. If you would like to discuss with us some ideas that you have that would be great. RosePlantagenet 12:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

External Links

In reference to my edit earlier today, please see WP:EL for info on what should go in external links. Hobson 03:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Notability?

Now that she's no longer the future Queen of England, does she still merit inclusion on Wikipedia?--220.238.175.38 10:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there some hidden limit on the number of wikipedia articles that means anything not 100% current needs to be removed? 81.178.100.244 13:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The only parts that are notable are those relating to her relationship with Prince William. The section on her early life has no place here (are her exam results really notable?) She is now just any other random person. As her only claim to any notability flows from William, this article should be merged into the Prince William article. Rafy 13:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Saying someone isn't notable enough to have their own article on the day(s) that person is the top story in national newspaper / news outlet is probably going a little bit too far don't you think? Maybe in the (near) future when/if not many people is interested in her anymore, sure, but not right now. -- KTC 14:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with KTC's point. And, just because they've broken up does not mean they won't get back together or that she'll never be Queen. Remember Camilla? She came back years later. Many people break up and then get back together.71.65.202.41 18:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Please note that she is on again with the prince and it is in the news and in pictures.

Merge

This article should now be merged into William, SqueakBox 16:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Merging would be ridiculous, she is certainly deserved of her own page. Just because she and Will have split up, she is still a high-profile person in the media. Tphi 16:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that was a shock to read. Anyway, no, the article should not be merged. Kate was high-profile because she was William's girlfriend, however, that is not the case anymore. She and William have broken up and if they stay that way then there is no reason to keep the entire article. Middleton should be mentioned in Prince William's article as a past girlfriend, but I can not see the point in keeping the rest of the information about her now that it is certain she will not be the next Queen. RosePlantagenet 17:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't she going to continue to be notable on the grounds that she was a long-term associate of Teh Royalz and heavily covered in the press in her own right? Mistresses of royals (and that would have to include girlfriends) tend to be remembered at least as minor historical footnotes - there's even an entire category for them. I think it would be a mistake to delete this article just yet. Vashti 13:30, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This article should be deleted in a month after the breakup news dies down replaced with a mention of her in Prince Willy's 'past girlfriends' section. Is no seperate article for all of Prince Chucks and Prince Andy's ex-girlfriends. Until she ever becomes notable again, this article should go RingoStarburst 03:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It's worth keeping for a while, as she is still very much in the news and a public figure for better or worse, but the time will soon come when it ought to be merged. Hobson 18:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, that's a bit ridiculous. She's a major news story at this point, but yes, it's possible she'll fade into history. Does anyone not realize that in a free society, people can get back together with people they've broken up with? It happens quite often, actually. They could easily get back together like Camilla and Charles did. She does not have an article simply because she was PRince William's girlfriend-- she has an article because she's been a major media figure for years because of that, and people are going to be interested in her for a while. People hear about her and will want to know more about her. When the prince has a new long-term girlfriend or gets married in a few years, there will be more perspective on deletion. For now, that's simply too soon. She's quite famous, especially in the UK. 71.65.202.41 18:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Kate Middleton is sufficiently famous that people will search an enyclopaedia for an entry about her. She doesn't stop being famous just because of a broken engagement. ElinorD (talk) 07:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There was no engagement! They were never engaged. I think this article should soon be merged into Prince William's article under Former girlfriends, she hasn't done anything in her own right to have an article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.130.207.184 (talk • contribs) 15:05, 18 April 2007.

Sorry, you're right. I know they weren't engaged, and just wrote that without realising that it was what I had written. A broken relationship is what I meant. The rest of my comment stands. ElinorD (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

(ETA: sorry this is unsigned, I have to gget the hang of the ~~ s, thought I did it Meanwhile..the comment that I was referring to as silly has been deleted! It doesn't refer to what ElinorD said) That last point is a little silly. William hasn't done anything in his own right to have an article, either. He's only notable because of whose son he is. Kate Middleton's claim is just as much to do with relationships, even if it is a former one. For as long as she's in the news, she's notable. And I suspect we will hear about her for a while yet. ~~Kelli~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.158.131.150 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 18 April 2007.

No it is not silly at all. William's birthright and future positon as King is what makes him notable. Kate has no outstanding birth or relations, or future role that is certain. So saying Kate Middleton's claim is just as much to do with relationships is gravely wrong, and very silly. Soon people will be saying "Kate Who?" and it will be obvious this needs to be deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.158.131.150 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 18 April 2007.

Edit - My comment begins here. As the above comment was not signed, it might have looked like part of my response. Hobson 17:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC) There seems to be a consensus not to do anything right now. Maybe it makes sense to put this debate on hold for a month or two at least, when it might be clearer whether or not it makes sense to merge the article. Hobson 00:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Primary criterion for Notability of people :

A person is notable if he or she has been the subject of secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent,Template:Fn and independent of the subject. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability. Trivial, or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability. Once notability is established, primary sources may be used to add content. Ultimately, and most importantly, all content must be verifiable.

The subject of this article certainly meets these criteria, so is therefore notable. This article shouldn't therefore be merged into another. Davidprior 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Kate Middleton only became famous because of Prince William. If she had never dated him, no one would know who she is or care. As soon as, William meets his next girlfriend, the media will focus on her. Middleton will simply go down in history as Prince William's first love and nothing more. The only people who care about Middleton are her fans. It is possible that someday she and William could get together but that is speculation. Speculation does not belong in an encyclopedic article, especially since the ones who are still hoping on that are her fans. Wikipedia is not a fansite. If within a given period of time she and William do not get back together this article should be deleted. The only place Middleton should be referenced is in Prince William's article. As I have stated before, there were only magazine and tabloid sources that kept this article going. And, while that rule seems to apply, at some point there will no longer be substantial sources on Kate Middleton. If those sources no longer exist this article will remain inactive and if it does then there is no point in keeping it up. RosePlantagenet 21:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

A person with "fans", as you say, clearly also is a person noteworthy enough for her own article. - Nunh-huh 22:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

True, however, her only claim to fame is being the girlfriend of Prince William. She is not anymore. She will always be just a former girlfriend. What else has she done? Or what else will she do? Typically, notable people do more notable things. Unless she does something more important than just being Prince William's former girlfriend, having fans will make no difference. That is just my two cents. RosePlantagenet 22:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

By "notability", Wikipedia only means that there are sufficient sources for an attributed article to be written. It has nothing to do with whether any particular Wikipedian feels that the person in question has "earned" an article. Clearly, there are sufficent sources for Kate Middleton. She doesn't have to do anything else, or to have done anything else. - Nunh-huh 23:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this, and I disagree strongly that there are "only magazine and tabloid sources" for her - a brief search turned up articles from the Observer, the Independent, the Guardian, the Times and the New York Times, none of which are traditionally described as either magazines or tabloids. I am astonished by this attitude that media sources somehow expire over time - this would make many articles about past events and people extremely hard to source. Vashti 17:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

If you check out past discussions that topic on sources has been faught over for sometime. I have never had a problem with magazines, newspapers, or tabloids because those were the major sources about her. While those sources should be used, at some point the media may stop reporting about her. At that point there will not be a sufficient amount of information and when that time comes, and it will, the article should be merged. RosePlantagenet 22:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

With respect, that simply isn't the case. Media sources don't disappear - they are archived and continue to be accessible forever. They are major historical sources. This means that even if Kate Middleton is somehow wiped from everyone's memory tomorrow, the past sources make her notable. In fact, I'd argue against any merger on the grounds that she is very likely to be irrelevant to William's article, except as part of a list of past girlfriends - all of whom should have their own articles if sources are available to create them. Vashti 10:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

If Wikipedia wants to create articles for all the future girlfriends for the Princes then so be it. As long as this article does not become a shrine for fans of Middleton, who still believe she will be Queen someday. RosePlantagenet 17:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, this page shouldn't be allowed to become a fansite. Vashti 16:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

End of the relationship

There's been quite a few edits to this section, particularly about the reasons for the split. I have made some changes, i) to ensure it is made clearer that the many reasons given for the couple splitting have all been ascribed to anonymous sources and ii) to ensure that the possible reasons mentioned in this article are indeed referred to in the newspaper articles cited. It may well be possible to improve my edits but can I ask that any other reasons mentioned are cited. As the whole thing is speculation anyway, it needs to be speculation from a leading and established news source at least. Hobson 17:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This is what I wrote, and the newspaper reports in brackets: The original report in The Sun quoted a "close friend of the couple" as saying that Middleton felt William had not been paying her enough attention (The Sun wrote: One close friend of the couple said: “As far as Kate is concerned, William simply hasn’t been paying her enough attention). The paper highlighted reports that William had been spending time with other young women (Saucy Wills slipped his hand around Brazilian student Ana Ferreira . . . and on the same night the Prince was snapped with leggy blonde Lisa Agar, 19), and said the Prince, aged 24 at the time of the split, felt he was too young to marry(And at 24, the Prince is said to feel he is too young to marry). A report in the Daily Mail blamed a desire by royal courtiers not to "hurry along" a marriage announcement (the Mail wrote: Two things did for the relationship. First, Royal protocol - courtiers saw no reason to hurry along with a marriage announcement), and William's desire to enjoy his bachelor status within his Army career (But, second, because of this enforced breathing space, Prince William decided to enjoy his bachelor status within his Army career). The Mail also suggested that William's friend Guy Pelly encouraged the Prince to take a "careless approach" to relationships (Some critics of this careless approach to human relationships are pointing the finger at the Princes' friend Guy Pelly). The same article suggested that Middleton had "expected too much" in wanting William to demonstrate his commitment to her (She had given him her commitment, at some expense to herself, but was he giving her his? In the end, it looks like she expected too much). Hobson 17:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Speculation

As of the moment, the reunion is speculation. There is no proof they are back together. It has been stressed in earlier discussion that speculation is no longer allowed. This article is not a shrine for Kate Middleton. If you are a fan of her that is fine but please do not use this article to press your point of view or it will be removed. Wikipedia is not a fansite. RosePlantagenet 12:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Are there any non speculating sources, that they were official together, and if yes, split? --Spacey 12:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)