Talk:Burning Man

Please try and make contributions to this article encyclopedic. This is not a brochure for Burning Man but rather an encyclopedia article about Burning Man so please avoid the tones of an insider and fan of the event (e.g. avoid advice for prospective participants, laudatory statements, or waxing philosophical unless you can attribute the views to a published source).

If you know of an academic, journalistic, or other credible source about the Burning Man event, anything in Category:Burning Man or the related Burner subculture please add it to User:Todfox/Burning Man/Sources.

If you are a Burner and a Wikipedia editor, you can join Category:Wikipedian Burners

Archives
July 2003 – August 2005 August 2005 – October 2005 October 2005 – September 2006

This article needs some serious work

The article comes off as an amateur brochure. This is a place for encyclopedic information. Most of it was clearly written by people who have been and are excited about it (which is fine, but you shouldn't be able to tell that from the contributions) One of the most obvious offenses against encyclopedic content is the "advice" sprinkled here and there. Please leave that kind of stuff out. I'm going through, and taking out the most obvious unencyclopedic information, but the whole article is written in a tone that is not appropriate for a encyclopedia article. I'm not even going to get into the citing problem.

I would like to see this one day become a featured article (at its current state it should have never even been considered). This isn't going to happen if people excited about the event come here and write in a way that makes it obvious its coming from a participants point of view. This isn't a place to learn what to do and what not to do on the Playa. Its a place to learn facts about burning man. It is not a place to get advice, or to initiate the uninitiated. Brentt 23:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

One big thing I see that needs improvement is that the Notes section should be renamed References and actually formatted like references. There are lot of notes and external links where the information here is theoretically verifiable but that doesn't exempt the article from having an actual references section Plymouths 14:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Airport travel brochure--inappropriate style

Here is an example of the kind of travel brochure-like advice that should not be in this article (the first sentence is OK).

Black Rock City also has its own airport for small private planes, run by volunteers. Mountainous desert regions are extremely dangerous for inexperienced and experienced pilots alike, however, and it's not recommended to fly into this airport unless one is experienced with desert flying. The only advertised airfares are for shuttles offered by Advantage Flight Solutions from Reno and the Bay Area.

This is not a lonely planet guide. If there have been notable problems with the airport in the past, that may be germane to this article and please include it, but please don't write it in a travel brochure style which is warning prospective attendees of dangers. Instead cite the problems there have been in the past with the airport, or cite concerns that have been raised by published sources about the safety of the airport. Brentt 19:44, 14 September

Sourcing and Purging

I've begun the process of finding a source for every comment made in the article. If I can't find a source, I'm purging it from the page and placing it here for assistance.

I encourage others to do the same, since I'm sure I don't have the time to do it all by myself. —XSG 03:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It is well known that those are some of the few things on sale at BM. I'd be suprised if the BM website doesn't have info on that. But in this case I'm prepared not to object because the article needs so much work, and its been languishing in this poor state for so long, and it is so prone to being altered by enthusiastic burners in a laudatory or brochureish style. Maybe its good to make an exception for this article about lack of sourcing not being sufficient grounds for deletion for now. At least until the article improves and the cited information starts to outweigh the uncited information. There are so many published articles about BM that there is really no excuse for things not being sourced. Brentt 07:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

My take is that by moving content to the Discussion page, it isn't being deleted as much as it is giving people an opportunity to find a source which makes it acceptable for inclusion in the article... And since I wrote the above paragraph, you'd think I'd have a good source for that, but no... I pulled it all out of many years of Burning Man experience... —XSG 08:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Brentt 09:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Policing and Regulations moving second paragraph out until cited

I'm moving this from the article until it can be cited:

Recreational drug use is largely kept as a private activity and the number of roaming drug dealers has decreased dramatically since the mid-90's, although the amount of drugs actually consumed on the playa each year is still believed to be enormous. Officers refer to tickets issued for public drug use as the “Stupid Tax”. Undercover officers are known to roam the playa dressed up like attendees, even going so far as to be naked for the purpose of winning unsuspecting peoples' trust.

and please make a less weasel phrase ridden version e.g. "it is believed that"--believed by whom? The general public? Burners? You? Tell us who please. Brentt 08:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Philosophizing without attributing

This paragraph sounds like a bit of philosophizing by the contributor (italics):

Burning Man participants often call themselves "burners". Although this usage may vary with region, a burner is an annual denizen of Black Rock City, and anyone who embraces Burning Man as an expression in sync with their own identity is a burner. In general, the term's use is only practical in contexts outside of the event itself. A burner is usually someone who has been to the event and aspires to return, even if only in spirit. The concept also implies the sentiments and values inspired by the event itself, including a high regard for creativity, especially radical self-expression, and willingness to participate in a gift-based economy.

Its too philosophical not to be attributed to a published source. Please somebody either attribute it to someone or delete it. (if nobody finds a source I'm going to delete it.) Brentt 06:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Published material on sexuality at BM

Does anyone know a good published article about sexuality at burning man? I bring this up because the reference to BMs reputation for sexual promiscuity was in the Policing and Regulation section, where it doesn't really fit in because it has nothing to do with policing or regulation (aside from public sex). I moved it to the "Community" section, where it barely fits in really (along with the clothing optional bit, which also barely belongs in the community section), but I would think that a section on Sexuality would be good. But I would like some published material to reference before I create a whole section. Brentt 07:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a lab experiment. It's a community experiment. Of course it should go in community. This no longer reads like a bad travel guide. It reads like critics who haven't visited BRC.

You could try the archives at www.pissclear.org. Electric.tapir 19:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Clean-up

I am going to try and go through and give it a good edit. I am an editor and Burning Man participant. Bear with me. --Waterspyder 01:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I started to organize the article, but had to stop for a break. Hopefully this will give others a framework to work with too. I'll be back to finish as soon as I can --Waterspyder 02:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you...it needs it. --Brentt

Info about German soldier executions sounds speculative

This kind of information needs to be sourced before being put in:

, or else to the method of execution that ancient German armies used against captured Roman commanders ( Roman commander Marcus Aurelius Scaurus, when captured at the Battle of Arausio by the Germanic Cimbria tribe, was put in a wicker cage and then burned alive)

Just doesn't sound like typical symbolic thinking of a bay area Bohemian. It might be true, but its far out enough to need a source before being in the article.

The bit about it being related to Wicker Man should be sourced too, since Harvey has disavowed it. But I guess it can slide for now since it says it says he has disavowed it. But it should probably be made more clear that it has been disavowed by harvey in the same sentence its presented. Brentt 19:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I was questioning this bit too. When I get a few minutes, I'll shorten it up. That much detail isn't necessary in this article, even if it remains referenced. --Waterspyder 20:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Quotation Punctuation

"community," "artwork," "absurdity," "decommodification," and "revelry." seems wrong to me. The change was made by someone without a login, so I can't discuss it with them directly. As such, I'm reverting the change so that it appears as community, artwork, absurdity, decommodification, and revelry. —XSG 03:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

(Ahem) encyclopedic cleanup

This article is partly very well-written, but it sure does need cleanup. I have removed the misleadingly titled section "Decommodification" (!) along with its low-value footnote links: some are mere spam (advertising), some fail to address the claims made, some are to pure how-to pages like bus timetables and ticket sales (WP:NOT a how-to guide). Also nearly the whole "Travel" section--sorry, but how to get there and how to get around in there, and so on and so forth, just aren't fit topics for an encyclopedia article. I left a mention of the art cars. Bishonen | talk 13:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC).

Agreed. Brentt 08:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I put a bit of time into reworking the decommodification section. The links aren't footnotes, they're references. They're not there to advertise, they're their to demonstrate the level of decommodification that Burning Man holds itself to. It's certainly open to criticism, but the fact of the matter is that it's not travel brochure information... For these reasons, I've put the decommodification section back. Please rework it, if you care to, but don't just delete it. I can support the removal of the travel section. —XSG 06:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

If the links are references they should be formatted as references. See WP:CITE#H Plymouths 14:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Green Tortoise

I don't see what this company have to do with Burning Man. Isn’t this company a capitalist venture...

Burning Man is not a money-free workers paradise. GT gives shuttle rides to and from the event from various cities and to and from Gerlach during the event (yes, for a price). It could be argued that its not a significant thing to put in, but lots of things at BM are "capitalist ventures"--ice, coffee, and ticket sales for for example. (as an aside the no commodification thing isn't a political stance on BMorg's part, its simply a way to keep the event from being overun by vendors. The event isn't a promotion of some Utopian vision of a workers paradise--hehe more like a temporary bourgeoisie paradise if anything. ) Brentt 23:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

BM itself is a capitalist venture - it's run by a for profit LLC Trapper 07:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The Green Tortoise company are actually contracted to provide said bus service by the Burning Man Project during the event; it is considered branch of the organization's Community Services department, and is an official part of the infrastructure.

Andie Grace 22:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

see also section: Rainbow Gathering etc.

Please keep see also section limited to directly related articles. Famous attendees (Harrod Blank) and festivals having some remote similarity to BM (e.g. Rainbow Gatherings) don't count, as there is no direct relation between the two events, other than having a few people that probably attend both. The see also section would get out of hand if we included every festival that was remotely like BM.Brentt 23:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

You mean this article isn't supposed to be all things to all people?!  ;) You've done a great job monitoring and maintaining, Brentt. Thank you for your efforts. —XSG 03:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

A "festival" or "event"?

The folks at Burning Man have recently written

Burning Man is an event, the Event, the Project, Black Rock City...but not a FESTIVAL.

So it's NOT: "the 2007 Burning Man Festival" it's "Burning Man 2007"

It's a somewhat significant issue when it comes to the perception that "festivals" in america have music and vending (and even around the world). By removing the word we begin to remove ANY expectations of what Burning Man is...and as we all know even if a festival has no vending...it's hardly defined as just a "festival".

Hmmm. --Gadlen 22:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I take their point, although the objection is based on a modern, limited, and (as they tacitly acknowledge) American interpretation of the word "festival." I can understand them not wanting to be associated with the East Foobarville Art Festival and Funnel-Cake Cook Off, but it's still a fair use of the word. adamrice 22:52, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Gadlen 07:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Greetings Adamrice and Gadlen. I was about to change "festival" to "event" when I saw your comments. So I would first like to know whether you would permit that change. Regarding Adamrice's comment, I must agree that "festival" could fairly be used to describe Burning Man. I believe that "event" could just as fairly be used. Do you agree? If so, I am encouraged that you may further agree that nothing essential would be lost in this change, i.e. that you are not invested in preserving the current language. My own motive, having gained first-hand experience of the event, is to improve the accuracy of the article; "festival" carries connotations (such as those quoted by Gadlen above) that may reinforce common but false assumptions about the event, whereas "event" has a broader meaning that better accommodates the breadth of what constitutes Burning Man. I accept Adamrice's assertion that those connotations are modern (knowing little, myself, about historical uses of the word "festival"), which speaks in favor of the change insofar as modern usages must be relevant to our decisions as editors. However, if you believe that "festival" is MORE accurate than "event" in reference to Burning Man, I'm curious to know your reasoning. I await your reply before I proceed with this edit. Thanks. Benccc 07:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I favor the change to "event" - festival implies a lot more organization that actually exists Trapper 17:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

There was a discussion on the "Honoraria07-list" list. Involved in the discussion was Larry Harvey by proxy, Lady Bee, Chicken John, myself (Gadlen) and some others. The final word came from LadyBee and was pretty much, "You might well call it a festival and it's very festival-like but we're never going to market it that way." Here is a quote from LadyBee in an email to me (Gadlen)

From: LadyBee

Date: May 24 2007 - 1:24pm

from our media director:

thanks LB, sorry you're getting so much flack, but i guess the dialog is valuable....

The fact of the matter is...

You won't find us calling it a festival on the web site. We've been in the black rock desert since 1990. We don't want it called a festival, we don't want to be in the "festival roundups" in the rock magazines, we don't create a festival...it might be one, but that's not what I've worked 11 years on.

It's Burning Man

It's the Burning Man Project.

The feedback is lovely, but a fact is a fact. What else is left is their OPINIONS on the matter.

So really, you can call it a festival or think of it that way, we just don't publicly call it that for the above reasons. It's more about a specific category we get lumped into in the media than the broader context of the meaning of the word.

cheers = BEE

So, the current wording of the Burning Man Article, "Burning Man is an eight-day-long annual festival ..." is pretty much correct.--Gadlen 17:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I favor "event" per the [Guide] preference for self-description. The word "festival" is disputed by the subject and event is not disputed by anyone. Alternatively use the wordier "event, (organizers do not use the term 'festival')" or even longer and more accurately "event, (organizers dropped the word 'festival' from the name after 1992 (Doherty, Brian (2006). This Is Burning Man. Benbella Books. pp. p. 78. ISBN 978-1-932100-86-0. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)), and have publicly asked the term not be used in order to distinguish from more formally programmed events)" JKPrivett 10:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There is room in this world (and Article) for both terms. The dictionary definition of "festival" and "event" both apply. Since a lot of recent Black Rock City LLC-approved media including television shows mention the "Burning Man Festival", they obviously aren't pushing too hard to blot out the word "festival".

JKPrivett write: I favor "event" per the Guide preference for self-description

Well, the article is about the whole of Burning Man, not just the Labor Day event/festival. IE: there's a listing of Regional events. I suppose that messes up both our arguments... Burning Man is a state of mind, not an event or festival ;-)

JKPrivett wrote: The word "festival" is disputed by the subject and event is not disputed by anyone

Since I'm the one who made the subject and I disagree with it, that's not a very good argument.

I suppose adding your This is Burning Man reference to the article could be useful. --Gadlen 21:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I also like the longer explanation supported by the reference. Trapper 17:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Based on the discussion above, I felt comfortable proceeding with the change from "festival" to "event" on the article. I called the Burning Man office to verify that organizers referred to Burning Man as a festival prior to 1992 (as mentioned in the book cited by JKPrivett) and I reached LadyBee, who said she didn't think this was correct, so to be safe I left it out. Benccc 00:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Benccc, how did you come to your conclusion? To paraphrase the above, Ladybee says it's pretty much a festival though they don't call it that, the dictionary makes it a festival, and old as well as recent authorized media calls it a festival.

I will add that hundreds of thousands of web references call it a festival, including the Burningman.com home page. To find that reference, go to http://burningman.com, view the source of the page and note that Meta Name Description is "Burning Man is an annual art festival and temporary community based on radical self expression and self-reliance in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada."

Benccc, could you please describe why in the face of this you obliterated the term "festival" from the entry? Some of your edits are nice but, as I said before, there is room for BOTH terms. Could you please adjust the entry accordingly? --Gadlen 00:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the first reference in the article from "event" to "festival". A more discriminating eye should be laid to the whole document to incorporate both terms appropriately. But this is a start --Gadlen 20:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Questionable history moved from article

I moved the following from the article. The info needs to be sourced. It is too much of the kind of stuff that could just as well be apocryphal as real.

The name "Burning Man" may have come to Harvey when he was watching a video of the 1986 ritual. A member of the crowd watching the event supposedly shouted out "Wicker Man!", suggesting that the burning of the wooden effigy was somehow related to the ancient Celtic ritual of the Wicker Man, signifying rebirth. Harvey was the son of a Freemason, and (for Harvey) the use of wood in building the man had symbolic significance and was a critical part of the ritual; also, according to him, he did not see the movie The Wicker Man until many years later, so it played no part in his inspiration. Accordingly, rather than allow the name "Wicker Man" to become the name of the ritual, he started using the name "Burning Man."

Please reference a solid source before adding it back in. Brentt 00:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's a solid, direct quote source: (Doherty, Brian (2006). This Is Burning Man. Benbella Books. pp. p. 33. ISBN 978-1-932100-86-0. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help))

Harvey has said that the name "Burning Man" came to him when he was watching a video of one of the Baker Beach burns. A member of the crowd had shouted out "Wicker Man!", suggesting that the burning of the wooden effigy was somehow related to the ancient Celtic ritual of the Wicker Man, signifying rebirth. Harvey was the son of a Freemason, and (for Harvey) the use of wood in building the man had symbolic significance and was a critical part of the ritual; also, he swears that he did not see the movie The Wicker Man until many years later, so it played no part in his inspiration. Accordingly, rather than allow the name "Wicker Man" to become the name of the ritual, and after considering "Lumber Man" and "Fire Man," he started using the name "Burning Man."

Can I add it back? JKPrivett 10:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yea, but QUOTE it and attribute it. Apparently the problem wasn't a lack of source, it was outright plagiarism. Brentt 21:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I was unclear earlier. There was no palagarism. That was not a verbatim quote. It was my attempted revision of the removed text with clarifications based on the cited source. Below is another option, citing direct Larry Harvey quotes in the same source.

Harvey has said that the name "Burning Man" came to him when he was watching a video of one of the Baker Beach burns. A member of the crowd had shouted out "Wicker Man!", suggesting that the burning of the wooden effigy was somehow related to the ancient Celtic ritual of the Wicker Man, signifying rebirth.

Harvey said "I figured we needed a good name if people were going to call it that crap. Wood Man? Burning Man? OK. Burning Man. It felt right.... It was very much a carpentry deal. A fellow ship of carpenters. Like my father being a Freemason. 'Burning Man' is a great [multivalent] name because it's an action, an object, and a shared experience all at once."

Harvey has also stated that he did not see the movie The Wicker Man before the 1986 burn, so it played no part in his inspiration.

JKPrivett 05:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

John Law Suing Larry Harvey, et. all

The 2000 to the Present section needs some elaboration and clarification. John Law is only debatably suing Harvey to get Burning Man into the public domain. Critics of Law have said he is actually in it for money. Both perspectives should be represented. Deramisan 14:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)Deramisan

External links May 2007

I support the recent removal of most external links and would request a few words here before they are re-added. Articles should rarely have more than a handful of links, this one included. A long list is difficult to maintain, dilutes any benefit to the reader, and is not what this project is about. See Wikipedia:External links for more info on the community guidelines. Thanks! ∴ here…♠ 21:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

my view exactly Trapper 00:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

BLM

What is this BLM citation that gets referred to? The wiki link leads nowhere. --Theloniouszen 21:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Bureau of Land Management. Fixed. adamrice 21:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Why no controversies?

For an event that has 40k something attendants at a price of 350 USD (former from this site, later from burning man site), meaning 14 million in sales, has no one seen the irony in a "hippy" event more being a yuppie/new age convention? I've got nothing against free expression, when its free.

And yes, I could state numerous other things that could be debated about how Burning Man continues to fail its 10 principles, but I don't feel like it. Zanduar 07:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)