Jump to content

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mzoli's Meats

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Articles for deletion

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by RenamedUser jaskldjslak904 (talk | contribs) at 19:51, 19 September 2007 (→‎Mzoli's Meats: -im leaving). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Mzoli's Meats

Mzoli's Meats (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Contested prod. My prodding reason was: Non-notable restaurant with minor press coverage. We are not the white pages and we are not a travel guide. ^demon[omg plz] 17:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • There appears to be no lower limit to groveling before the throne of the God-King. Wales is the owner of a for-profit wiki business so I think he knows exactly how to advertise in wiki format. What next? Burger bars, hotdog stands? The article is advertising pure and simple. --91.84.57.220 13:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This comment wins my personal prize for the most humorous one in the entire debate. Yeah, I traveled all the way to South Africa, went into a black township, purchased a restaurant, and spammed Wikipedia. Yeah.  :-)
  • That the article was created by Jimbo may be irrelevant but the fact it was created by a long standing contributor familiar with our policies is significant. This article was not created by someone new to Wikipedia or with an agenda to promote the subject. Might have been worth giving this one a bit more time to be sourced before deleting/AfDing it. WjBscribe 18:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it is undoubtedly a notable South African restaurant. Whether it is notable internationally is less clear. But then there are restaurants in the USA that I have never heard of that have articles, so why not one in South Africa that I have never heard of? Carcharoth 17:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Wasn't Jimbo the one who said we need to stop using {{fact}} and either source it or remove it? As it stands, we've got a non-notable restaurant with almost no sourcing, and the only reason people are scrambling to keep it is because Jimbo authored the original. ^demon[omg plz] 18:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom; in spite of Jimbo's rave reiviews (j/k), I don't know just how notable it is. It definitely needs build-up, which I dont see the sources for. Could someone search the Afrikaaner edition maybe??? - CobaltBlueTony 17:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I'm the author of this version, Jimbo Wales of the original version. The place is clearly one of the more notable establishments in Capetown, South Africa, the subject of considerable coverage. It is a famous place (as per the source, which keeps getting deleted) that is known thorughout South Africa and attracts important politicians and well-known entertainers. It is also a gathering place for the city and nation, and an important example of a black-owned busines that is part of South Africa's new economic development programs. The primary source, "Youth Radio", is a reliable source even if the reporters are in their late teens - does Wikipedida have a bias against young people? It's an internationally syndicated radio program that practices serious journalism and is broadcast on NPR stations, among others. The original version of the article, which I have not seen, was deleted almost instantly. In the past few minutes since this completely new article was created it has been proposed for speedy deletion twice three times as spam, blatant advertising, attacked as non-notable, had its sources challenged, etc. This is a real article about a real, notable business that has received international press. It's sourced. If it's deficient it can be expanded and improved. I've never seen a neutral, informative article under such fierce attack so quickly. I can only surmise that this has something to do with Jimbo Wales being the one who created the first version, and perhaps some lack of understanding about South Africa. A comparable establishment in the United States would not be proposed for deletion. In that case, all of these challenges suffer from WP:POINT. Wikidemo 17:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • week delete - if there is only one reliable secondary media coverage (this article) then I lean to deletion. Yall can't just claim it's notable... we need to see the evidence that it's notable. 1 article doesn't cut it. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. There's more news coverage, concerning the restaurant owner's family (daughter kidnapped, son killed), but also about a big police raid at the restaurant. Perhaps some of this could/should be incorporated into the article. —David Eppstein 18:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's more local; stuff like that happens everyewhere. Is there an international spin on these events? - CobaltBlueTony 18:12, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Must every Wikipedia article be internationally notable? Marco Borsato is arguably the most popular singer in the Netherlands, but he is not known at all in other countries. Melsaran (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not very comfortable about sourcing an article about a business to news coverage of a tragedy involving the family that run it. WjBscribe 18:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The point isn't that it was Jimbo, the point is that it was someone who knows the rules. They aren't just adding their favorite restaurant to the Wiki, they're adding an article that they're honestly planning to source later. Most of the CSD tags are by editors who don't have such plans. We need to give our trusted editors a chance to source something they've added; otherwise, it becomes a race to see who can type the fastest, the prodder or the sourcer. =David(talk)(contribs) 23:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Preaching to the choir, my friend; I'm all for keeping the article (I wouldn't have removed the prod if I wasn't). I'm just trying to de-mystify the fact that Jimbo did it. I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment that Jimbo is, in this case, no more important than you or I. "Wiki regular" is the exact "pedestal" he should be on right now, but I don't think everyone is treating him as such. EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, my apologies for the misunderstanding. I agree; there is no cabal. And no king, either. He gets no special treatment, but that goes in the positive and negative direction. =David(talk)(contribs) 23:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen many AFDs in my days. The response this one has generated is unique. I find it hard to believe that Jimbo's presence here hasn't influenced this debate.. I mean, look at all of these "wait and see" type !votes? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 06:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed; this has become quite unique. I'd like to think I would give any established editor the same chance; maybe I'll someday have a chance to explore that. I daresay some people who have voted on this page have given it special consideration, but I think the same argument could be made of those who vote for deletion; in their haste to prove themselves fair, unbiased and not a member of the Cabal, some may have rushed to enter a "delete" vote simply because Jimbo is the creator of Wikipedia. I think bias is an often unavoidable part of life; but, as both sides are probably similarly biased, they probably cancel one another out, allowing the clearer heads to prevail. =David(talk)(contribs) 07:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is unfortunately not eligible for a WP:SNOWBALL keep but I think we can manage to give the article some time to improve. Burntsauce 23:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. If Jimmy Wales has evidence of this establishment receiving non-trivial coverage by independent, reliable sources, it would be greatly appreciated if he could cite such coverage. Right now the only mention by a RELIABLE source is in passing, and the remaining references are very, very weak. I suggest this be re-listed for deletion in a few weeks time if there isn't any traction made in this regard. Thanks! Burntsauce 23:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable enough for me. For those seeking additional sources, there is an article available at Newsbank which may be of interest:
Sasha Planting. "A taste of ekasi. Mzoli's Butchery". Financial Mail (South Africa). 15 September 2006. 20. Zagalejo^^^ 01:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC) (It's also available here: [2].)[reply]
  • Delete I'm pretty sure that all the keep votes were because Jimbo created the article, there is only one independent, reliable source found in the debate so far, not really enough. The remainiding references are either blogs, travel guides and local reviews, which I don't see why these references are "independent". WP:BIAS doesn't apply nither as if it was an average american resterant, it would have been speedied, and if it wasn't created by Jimbo, speedied, or at least flooded with delete votes. If wikipedia keeps articles on every resterant that ever had a review in a newspager or travel guide and consider them "reliable sources", then we would have millions of articles. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 01:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Did you read the other votes? Don't assume we're all Jimbo sycophants. I'd do the same for any reasonably established and trusted editor. You included. Conversely, if this were obvious cruft written by Jimbo, my vote would've been delete. =David(talk)(contribs) 01:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Frankly, I would have loved to vote delete, just to put Jimbo in his place. But the sources, though scant in number, do suggest that this place is a major part of Cape Town culture. It's not a neighborhood pizza joint we're talking about here. Zagalejo^^^ 01:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We do have millions of articles! Carcharoth 01:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I mean million of articles on non-notable resterants, the issue is that it seems like if it was a normal user editing the article, it would be flooded with delete votes right now. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 02:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Untrue. Again, read the comments. And please don't assume we're being sycophantic or naive. =David(talk)(contribs) 02:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And I did read all the comments, one reliable source, and several not so good sources doesn't indicate an article can be written. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 03:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RUBBISH. It's been one day. =David(talk)(contribs) 03:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok it seems like we are both in violation of WP:RUBBISH :p, as it been one day is part of it, my delete still stands Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 03:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps; fair enough. But as my Keep still stands, it seems we are at a stalemate. You could surrender, if you like.  :-) =David(talk)(contribs) 07:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Uhh, nobody granted themselves god-like status. The article was deleted when it did not have even an assertion of notability, the current version is not what was deleted. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 04:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Uhh, article at creation of AfD provided sources and made claim of notability, and rejection of clear consensus continues after clear claims of notability were backed up by additional sources. Alansohn 04:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
...wait, where is there a rejection of consensus? EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alansohn, what is your problem? This whole scenario happens on a regular basis and so far I can't see a single admin action haven't taken place. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 06:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Seems to be locally notable. Cardamon 09:52, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Seriously, Jimbo may not be god like but he is the fricken foundation of this project. If we can no longer assume good faith from Jimbo himself, then we need to fire the admins and lock down the database as the inmates have overrun the asylum. --I already forgot 10:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Huh? Your comment makes NO sense, friend. Burntsauce 17:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Why is that? Users often point out that Jimbo shouldn't receive special treatment because of some "God like" status. Jimbo started the article and stated he needed help looking for refs to establish notability and a few hours later the article is AFD because of notability. One would think the community would assume good faith for wikipedia's founder, however, it seems that mostly the admins are pushing to delete article instead of helping with Jimbo's request to keep it. I think listing it for AFD so quickly after being created is poor judgment given the circumstances so it looks like an attempt to single out the creator or to make a point that Jimbo is not above other editors. I'm a little burnt out with people trying to make a point or push an opinion here on wikipedia so I was trying to keep it short with a little reading between the lines. Does the long version make any sense? If not, please kindly take it over to my talk page. --I already forgot 22:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thank you for elaborating on this. I'm a bit conflicted on how to respond, but let me just say that this is how administrators normally treat any other article on Wikipedia, and for the first time in my life I am witnessing Jimbo Wales, our lord and savior, experiencing the exact same process every other editor here gets to endure. $0.02 Burntsauce 17:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete with fire. On the basis of sources provided, this restaurant is self-evidently non-notable. "Cherryflava" is not what I would call a reliable source, Youth Radio is much more impressive but is only one source, and the Cape Times article contains only a passing mentions. Blogs don't cut it either, I believe: nor do brief blurbs in the equivalent of London Lite. Moreschi Talk 11:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Yes, my blog is non-notable, but it is a very busy place that is a landmark in the township. Folks, this is a Butchery - the restaurant part of it is an outside eatery with about 10 barbeques attached. It is a local magnet for other businesses, like liquor. This is in no way comparable to an American Diner. I would (vaguely) compare it to Jimmy's Harborside Restaurant in Boston for example. I do not see a wikipedia article for that, but there should be. Wizzy…☎ 18:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • As the nominator states, We are not a travel guide. A few blog entries, and one or two other notes on a restaurant hardly make it "notable". For instance, dependent on location, when a restaurant opens, it generally will get a small article in a local newspaper touting the opening. Then once it opens, there will generally be a review of the food/atmosphere, etc. Then for a good restaurant, it will probably win various awards which will be listed in a newspaper, culinary journal, or the like. And on top of that, any other blog entries of patrons, owners, or food critics. A restaurant such as Tavern on the Green 21 Club, or even Uno Chicago Grill would receive enough coverage to make it notable, and I don't think Mzoli's qualifies. We are not a directory of restaurants, white pages, or yellow pages. Until it recieves more coverage, I am inclined to opine delete. Mahalo nui loa. --Ali'i 13:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Wikipedia is not a travel or restaurant guide. The sources seem insufficient to substantiate notability. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 18:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Notable is a relative term. If there was a limit of like say each language encyclopedia gets 10,000 articles and no more, then this one and the following random articles would not be included, Homalium longifolium Tufi Airport Bangoka International Airport Henry F. May Donation of Sutri. However since there are 2,000,000 articles I would categorize Mzoli's Meats as within the 2,000,000 most notable subjects to use for an article. 199.125.109.35 19:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that if you are only allowed to have 100 articles your standards for notability are different than if you are allowed to have 100,000,000 articles. 199.125.109.35 20:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter, since we are allowed to have any number of articles. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per comments above. ↔NMajdan•talk 20:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Marginally notable at best. ~ Riana ⁂ 20:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm gonna have to say delete. It may be locally notable, but like multiple arguments, we're not a travel guide (I figured I won't add the link since it's on here a million times). Sorry Jimbo.... —Signed by KoЯnfan71 My Talk Sign Here! 00:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, notable. Everyking 01:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete With Fire, if anyone but King James had started this arty it would have been cast into the memory hole within an hour. Doubt this? Then test it by starting an article on a local restaurant you like and see how long it remains alive.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 02:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's probably true, but that doesn't mean that the article shouldn't exist. This could set a good precedent towards keeping similar articles. Everyking 03:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The precedent has already been established, my friend; Delete... Far better written and better sourced articles on far more notable subjects have been.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 10:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I note that your edit summary says "Category:Restaurants Jimbo Likes" - this is again mischaracterizing the issue. See my comment below. I get the impression Jimbo went to this restaurant, or was told about it, while he was in South Africa, and decided to try and start an article. See here: "currently in South Africa for a digital freedom tour" (March 2007) and "There's way too much advertising and they're not really respecting their own community." (same date, he said that about MySpace, but the comment may be ironic given this AfD). See also the Signpost article here (September 2007): "I think that we still have a long way to go in African languages. Toward that end, I am going 3 times in the next 9 months to South Africa (twice at my own expense) to help promote the growth of Wikipedia in the languages of South Africa". Now, some people might say that he should have started this article in the local language encyclopedia, but this brings us back to the question of whether notability is local or not. Well, notability obviously can be local, but how does this affect Wikipedia. I once voted delete on an article about a Brazilian DJ, saying if that person was notable in Brazil, the Portuguese-language Wikipedia should have an article on him (that's the language in Brazil), but there are many people who think that anything considered notable should have an article in all language wikipedias. Carcharoth 11:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is not a local restaurant that Jimbo likes. It appears to be a restaurant-with-a-difference (ie. butcher's and nightclub and start up enterprise) that he thought would make a good subject for a Wikipedia article, linking to and covering subjects such as development aid, different business models, and celebrity culture in Cape Town. It might be fairly characterized as a "tourist restaurant that caught Jimbo's eye", but not a "local restaurant". Carcharoth 11:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete — Non-notable restaurant. I understand that it's hard to find sources about stuff in Africa, but it's not impossible. Until more press coverage is found, the article should stay deleted. I, of course, have no problem with it being re-created if/when reliable sources are found. --Agüeybaná 02:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I read that if the article was created by any other user, that it would have been deleted immediately. If so, why do we have so many completely un-refed Restaurant stubs on wikipedia? --I already forgot 04:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, see nothing here that shows for notability per WP:ORG except very minor press coverage, Wikipedia is not a travel guide, and an article can't get kept solely because Jimbo wrote it - hopefully the closing admin will take this into account. A lot of the keep arguments here (some of which cite Jimbo having written the article) are mostly invalid. This is also not a speedy keep candidate. --Coredesat 04:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I should note that the Financial Mail article is not a restaurant review, but more of a description of how popular the place has become, with all of its celebrity patrons. That should count as a non-trivial, reliable source. The Youth Radio report is a competent piece which aired on Marketplace, and should count as well. So, we do have multiple non-trivial sources, (two = multiple), and it doesn't seem like anyone has even attempted to look for non-English sources (eg, Afrikaans, Xhosa, etc.) Considering the claims in the sources we do have, I'd be very surprised if there isn't more written about this place somewhere. Zagalejo^^^ 05:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete Until more sources to establish notability is found, the restaurant is not notable. Just because Jimbo created it dosen't mean it is automatically exemmpt from the guidelines on notability. He may be one of the founders of Wikipedia and well-respected within Wikipedia but that does not mean he is the "wiki-god" and exempt from the rules. --Hdt83 Chat 07:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I trust the closing admin will discount all arguments mentioning Jimbo, both the keeps and the deletes. Unfortunately, because it was created by Jimbo, this has created a cause celebre, with much more attention than normal. I really hope people do look for South African sources, and look at articles like Ben Franks and Espresso Essential Scotland (from Category:Restaurant stubs). I know that the existence of similar articles that should be deleted is not an argument, but I'm saying that many of those restaurant stubs are notable, despite appearances, and this is a similar example. In other words, I'm saying that other, similar, stubs exist, and that they should all be kept! Carcharoth 07:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Regardless of author, Significant coverage by multiple Reliable Secondary Sources Independent of the subject has been cited in the article. Notability according to WP:N has been established and the Nomination has been satisfied, case closed. - Fosnez 09:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - see here for my comments on why this is not just "a restaurant Jimbo likes". The notability question is nuanced and difficult to get an objective answer to. The main point I want to make here is that this whole AfD is a classic case of not being courteous to newcomers. I know Jimbo is not a newcomer (obviously!), so let me explain by quoting from the guideline:

    "All of us were newcomers once, even those careful or lucky enough to have avoided common mistakes, and many of us consider ourselves newcomers even after months (or years) of contributing." (my emphasis)

    For established editors, it only takes a few minutes to discuss something on someone's talk page, instead of putting an article up for deletion, especially if it was recently created. That would be closer to the spirit in which Wikipedia was founded, as opposed to what is being said at this AfD. If a new editor had created this article, imagine what effect this AfD would have on them. Carcharoth 12:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Useful information and well sourced. futurebird 12:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I just read A Day in the Life of an Article and while I'm not surprised (it's happened to me), I think it is outrageous what transpired. Someone should loose their adminship over this. Editors should be given time to develop an article, in particular when they leave a note saying they need some time! Forget all the rules, it is just common courtesy and being respectful - there are too many users on Wikipedia who use the rules to the letter to act like jerks and a-holes, which drives away good civil people and is increasingly leaving Wikipedia a wasteland of miscreants and/or teaching them how to behave that way. -- 71.191.36.194 13:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
<joke>You're afraid of chasing Jimbo away?!</joke> Jon513 15:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Someone should lose their adminship because they nominated an article for deletion? Please. Let's keep things in perspective here. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 16:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep we have such little copverage of Africa (and in comparison such bloated coverage of America) that it is a shame that this notable place is even considered for deletion, SqueakBox 18:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - clearly the fact that I wrote the article is not a reason to keep or delete it, but it certainly seems to be a good reason for some people to engage in shockingly bad faith behavior. This is not my "favorite local restaurant" (I don't live in Cape Town), and indeed not even my favorite restaurant in Cape Town (that would be Five Flies, which does not have an article and does not need an article). And yes, Wikipedia is not a travel guide or anything of the sort. This restaurant is not notable for the food but for the cultural impact it is having in South Africa, and interesting internationally because it is a standard exemplar of some positive changes that are finally starting to take place in South Africa. I was taken there by a reporter for a national t.v. network. It's notable for all those reasons. Everyone who said "uh, duh, Jimbo probably knows that Wikipedia is not a travel guide" were exactly right. You can dispute the article on the merits of the notability (though not successfully, I think), but the assumptions of bad faith in this argument are just shocking. Some people should excuse themselves from the project and find a new hobby.--Jimbo Wales 19:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And some editors should excuse themselves also for placing a higher weight on your edits than others, but who am I to battle over who's worthy to contribute? ^demon[omg plz] 19:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If Jimbo says I should leave the project, then I'm leaving the project. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 19:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per most of the other Keep comments, including the substantive portion of Jimbo Wales's Keep rationale discussing why he created the article. I am constrained to note, though, that the tone of some Jimbo's remarks here is unhelpful; I particularly hope he will withdraw his last sentence. Newyorkbrad 19:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I believe the article has sufficient reliable sources covering it significantly to assert notability especially considering that it is more difficult to find sources for places in Africa than in say, America. Davewild 19:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mzoli%27s_Meats&oldid=159016124"