Talk:Tim Berners-Lee

Gutenberg

Yet their unique combination into a simple and cohesive concept deservedly rewarded the genius of Tim Berners-Lee with the credit for the greatest human breakthrough since Gutenberg

Oh, please. Thats way over the top GWO

Well, in one sense the comparison seems quite apt. Gutenberg took existing technology, improved it, and introduced the first 'mass-market' application. Ditto Berners-Lee. Matthew Woodcraft

Yet he did it so poorly. Why SGML? Why not have customizable tags from the ground up (instead of allowing W3C to staple it to the mangy dog's forehead with the mincy marketing driven name XML)?

-AnonymousCoward (62.49.130.172)

Why not wait until he had the perfect technical solution? The idea he came up with did rather catch on, what were the practical alternatives? Microsoft Blackbird?

I think the question to be addressed first is if HTML is 'the greatest human breakthrough since Gutenberg' (sic). N.B. Gutenberg was not a breakthrough, unless his parents did something innovative to conceive him. The comparison should be between the movable-type press and HTML. Some other innovations that might be considered instead of HTML: 'the light bulb; penicillin; the telephone; powered flight. Also note that Gutenberg was about 400 years late: Around 1040, the first known movable type system was created in China by Bi Sheng out of porcelain. Metal movable type was first invented in Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty (around 1230). Neither movable type system was widely used, one reason being the enormous Chinese character set. see Movable Type
-Steven Mair 66.75.52.201 07:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Enquire Within

Enquire Within Upon Everything, the book Berners-Lee named his prototype after, is currently doing the rounds on Distributed Proofreaders. Should I put in a link once it becomes available? -- Jim Regan 14:32, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The relevant quote is here:

"When I first began tinkering with a software program that eventually gave rise to the idea of the World Wide Web, I named it Enquire, short for Enquire Within upon Everything, a musty old book of Victorian advice I noticed as a child in my parents' house outside London. With its title suggestive of magic, the book served as a portal to a world of information, everything from how to remove clothing stains to tips on investing money. Not a perfect analogy for the Web, but a primitive starting point."

-- Jim Regan 20:53, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Writers

Does anybody's who's written a book get to be listed in Category:Writers? I'm pretty dubious about the appropriateness of including Mr. Berners-Lee in said category - not least because I'm trying to clear everybody out into genre sub-categories, and can't figure out what sub-category he would possibly belong to. john k 05:08, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not everyone who writes, writes books. But what about category:autobiographers?Andy Mabbett 08:13, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Al Gore invented the www?

This seems to be a bit much. I don't claim to be an expert on Al Gore, but I know he advocated strengthening the "internet superhighway" and such, but invented? Doubtful. This is related to the belief, joking or otherwise that Al Gore CLAIMED to have invented the internet. Does anyone have more information on Al Gore's true role here? 66.95.139.107 12:54, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yep, right here. Good old Snopes. Mr. Billion 07:34, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Internet and the World Wide Web are two different things. Related, but different. RealGrouchy 16:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The Al Gore statement under "See Also" seems entirely irrelvent to the article. Perhaps it deserves a mention under Internet, but not under the biographical article of a, for the most part, unrelated person. -- Exitmoose 06:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Broken Link

The link to CERN seems to be broken. Gerry Lynch 16:44, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Huh?

It was also at Oxford where he was caught with a friend and was banned from using the university computer soon after.

So exactly why was he banned from using the university computer? Because he was caught with a friend? Is being with friends against the rules? Was he doing something wrong to the computers with his friend? The reader is left in the dark here. [[User:Livajo|力伟|☺]] 22:44, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

..yeah, I also think this should be explained further 'cause it sounds like "Timmy" is not straight :)

(FWIW: I and another undergrad pysicist were using the Oxford Nuclear Physics's Lab's interactive DEC-10 system line printer, which was off limits to undergraduates. We were using it to print information for the Rag Week committee. Rag Week is a student-run charity event - a worthy cause, one might have thought. The system's manager, Joyce Clarke(e?) did not think so. It was not the main University computer. TimBL 16:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC) User:Timbl)

Computer Lib / Dream Machines

Where is a ref to this book? — Xiong (talk) 03:13, 2005 Mar 24 (UTC)

Boston link

The Boston link could do with updating to point to the appropriate Boston article, but I'm not sure which it is. --John 23:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Removing Spinning the Semantic Web

Spinning the Semantic Web isn't a work of Tim Beners-Lee. He only contributed the forward which normally doesn't make you an author or editor of the work, or, indeed, really a significant contributer (especially for a technical work like this). It's more like an endorsement. If there needs to be another work, I would suggest the Scientific American article on the Semantic Web. He's acutally a co-author and it's one of the more widely cited articles around. If no one objects, I'll make these changes. Bparsia 03:59, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Huh? 2

Re: CSS It was not until 2000 and 2001 that popular browsers began to support this standard, which shows Berners-Lee's first goal to maintain the freedom of the Web.

I don't get it... what shows that his first goal is to maintain the freedom of the web? David Bergan 17:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

== One of the Great Men in History ==

I hope that Tim Berners-Lee will be place among the great contributors to communications and relations among the peoples of the world. I think he has invented another avenue for pursuing the truth or finding it. I'm not saying the Web is all truth, but it has made the avenues of communication available to all , and destroyed the previous monopolization efforts by some. I wrote to Tim once, and was unexpectedly honored by a personal response. His book is good reading. Mr. Lee deserves our admiration and thanks.

--USPatriot 18:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I think everyone agrees that TBL is very important. But on the other hand, there was a lot of luck involved. From my perspective, the most important thing was that no one took up his suggestion to implement hypertext linking on top of the TCP/IP stack. He had been talking to a lot of people about his idea but no one took him seriously. If someone else had, we would have been celebrating that person today and Berners-Lee would only have had minor credit as the person who "suggested" the project. What was really amazing was that he was so fascinated by hypertext and the Internet that he went ahead and implemented the idea himself in order to prove that it was possible.

The really hilarious thing is that Doug Engelbart had years and years to think about ARPANET and hypertext (he was there in the beginning after all) and never put it all together and got at least a small version of networked hypertext working (Engelbart's original NLS program was on the old monolithic model where everyone had to be logged into the same mainframe). The same thing goes for Ted Nelson. Now Berners-Lee, in the words of one journalist, has "eaten their lunch." --Coolcaesar 21:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

"Chance favours the prepared mind". Yes, luck may have been involved. But name one invention or important discovery where there wasn't a great deal of luck involved. No, I think this man should have gotten the Nobel Prize. He has given the world a gift that can never be fully appreciated. Thank you Sir Timothy. Wandering Star 00:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You can't get the Nobel Prize for inventions like the Web. Only for scientific discoveries (that is, discovering a law of nature). Though I agree there should be an international prize for engineers and their inventions. Anyway, TBL was already honored by the Queen. --Coolcaesar 02:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There is an international prize for such inventions - the Millenium Prize, worth $1.2 million - TBL received it in 2005. 82.181.88.129 15:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The latest edit...

... has added a paragraph to the summary at the top of the page that has nothing to do with Tim Berners-Lee but explains the differences with the WWW and the Internet. Obviously this shouldn't be there, but rather than reverse the edit I thought I'd leave it to a more experienced Wikipedian to decide whether this information is totally irrelevant, or should be edited and moved to a different part of the page. NumberJunkie 18:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism?

"He is an alumnus of Queen's College (where he played tiddly-winks for Oxford, against rivals Cambridge), Oxford University (which has dedicated a computer room in his honour)" -- Fact or vandalism? This is just goofy enough to be true. -- 201.78.233.162 22:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I am wondering about that too. At first, I thought maybe tiddlywinks means something different in UK English than it does in American English. If it doesn't, then I would say that this would make a very odd collegiate 'sport'. Wandering Star 00:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Tiddlywinks means the same in British English as it does in America. I agree, it does sound an implausible way to express inter-college rivalry; however, from Tiddlywinks: "The modern game of tiddlywinks was introduced in 1955 by Bill Steen and Rick Martin. These two Cambridge students wanted to play a game at which they could represent the university in a Varsity Match against Oxford." Not just confined to the UK either: see Harvard Tiddlywinks Society

It may well be true. I know that in 1975 there was an Oxford University Tiddlywinks Society because I nearly joined it. 86.53.56.64 13:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

It is entirely probable, I will ask him when I meet him next week. There is a strategy version of Tiddly Winks similar in concept to billiards or croquet. 66.31.39.76 18:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It is in fact true, but noit very significant. I joined teh Oxford team just for just that one trip to Cambridge, as I wanted a method to get to Cambridge to visit my old friend Nichols Barton (now FRS). So my life was not one of tiddleywinks, I would clasify this as trivia, but it is not for me to edit my own page :) TimBL 17:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

An emacs user?

I'm trying to populate the Category:Emacs users. Tim seems like the type that is likely to be an Emacs user, and he uses it as an example when talking about text editors, but I can't find a clear "I use emacs" statement. If anyone can find such a statement, or if anyone knows that he is an Emacs user, please add the category tag to this article. Thanks. Gronky 23:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I have ever seen Tim use emacs in the past ten years or so. He is much more of a NextStep/Mac type of person. --66.31.39.76 18:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Python user

In case someone wants to create :

Tim became a Python enthusiast when he tried to learn Python on a plane trip. He had already downloaded Python and its documentation on his laptop, and between takeoff and landing he was able to install Python and learn enough to do something with it, "all on one battery." found in http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5854 and in http://www.thinkware.se/cgi-bin/thinki.cgi/PythonQuotes —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.36.29.71 (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Nomination for the Nobel Peace prize

I just happened to see that Tim Berners-Lee is nomitated this year (2006), for the Nobel Peace prize. And this makes me wonder why on earth someone thinks the Nobel commity will pick him. For sure he has made communication worldwide easier, but how well related is this to peace work?

And maybe this nomination should at least be mentioned here in the Tim Berners-Lee wiki. What do you think?

Cailliau?

It seems that Mr. Berners-Lee has recieved the lion's share of the "priority" claim for www, but what of Mr. Cailliau? It appears from the Cailliau article that they each wrote a proposal in the same year, and a joint proposal was issued in the following year, yet the Berners-Lee article appears to offer only a glancing thought for Mr. Cailliau. I doubt that either of the principals would care, but it is hard to know what to make of the distribution of the attribution. Were a Nobel to be awarded -- purely hypothetical to frame the question -- would each receive it, or Mr. Berners-Lee only? Final thought: they shared the ACM prize for that year...it would be interesting to have their joint supervisor weigh in...

I agree, there is a serious bias here. I'm tagging NPOV. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Given another suggestion earlier that yet another party was involved, I think that a "factual accuracy is disputed" tag should supplement or replace the neutral one in the article. Comments? 85.92.173.186 15:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The "supervisor" is the late Mike Sendall; it would be difficult to get a statement from him. What can be verified is that the first proposal for what became the Web has sole authorship from Tim and was submitted for consideration within CERN in March of 1989. The revised proposal, in which Robert may have had some participation but made no technical changes, was resubmitted in May 1990. Given that the description and assignment of credit regarding the history of the Web was authored by Robert originally , and brought to another server after CERN decommissioned the original info.cern.ch, I think there's probably some credence to the assertion that Tim was the inventor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.202.31 (talk) 23:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Fraud of the Millenium: Tim Berners-Lee Hardly "Invented" the Web

"The press loves a story- especially when its juicy, simple (even simplistic), and ready for consumption. Such is the force behind the myth-making of Tim Berners-Lee. It is an insult to anyone who understands the Internet's history, architecture, and complexity to suggest one person 'invented it' or even invented the world wide web interface to access the Internet. TBL's responsibility for "inventing" the Web is such a joke in Silicon Valley that sometimes we have to remember that some people actually believe that he did so - thanks to media repetition. Hypertext was invented by Nelson and Englebart, both Americans. SGML preceded HTML and created its foundations. Berners-Lee borrowed and extended SGML. Further, the Internet relies on a number of protocols including TCP/IP, HTTP - none of which Berners-Lee invented. Berners-Lee was also uninvolved in the architecture behind the Internet whether that be the Mini-tel or ArpaNet. Berners-Lee also didn't invent the web browser, and the version he did create was available only for the NEXT machine, and unavailable to the public at large. For Berners-Lee's contribution, which is so modest to be concerned trivial by the technical community outside London, to earn him the merit of "father of the Web" is preposterous. It is beyond a stretch of the imagination. It is simply untrue."

• Please sign your comments with ~~~~. Furthermore, we need some reliable sources that state what you're saying. Please see WP:References and WP:Cite sources. — Wackymacs 10:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Surely this looks like someone is upset that an American wasn't credited with this invention 82.181.88.129 15:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Our mysterious visitor also couldn't spell Douglas Engelbart's name correctly. --Coolcaesar 11:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

And appears not to know the difference between the Web and the Internet... Andy Mabbett 19:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I come to this thread way way late I know. I was just reading the BBC article on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6959034.stm. As an Englishman I rejoiced in the fame of Tim Berners Lee just as I am proud of Watson and Crick (who worked in Cambridge even if one of them was American). But I could not find his name anywhere in the article. I am also a skeptic so I searched further and as far as I can see TBL seems to have invented just one concept among many that came together to create the WWW. I really have to admit, against my British pride, that TBL can not be considered the father of the web. A Wikipedia article should be factual and impartial. Robotics1 12:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This guy's comments are the only one on this entire article that make any sense. TBL contribution was very modest, and to claim he invented the WWW is a JOKE! If you have any understanding of how the Internet works you will realize that. I just saw the BBC commercial in question, and I couldnt stop laughing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.208.83.232 (talk) 11:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

NO FRAUD: Tim Berners-Lee DEFINITELY Invented the World Wide Web

Few of you know what you are talking about. I was a Director of the Free Software Foundation from 1985 to 1997 and worked closely with Richard Stallman on it, the GNU Project, and free software. We worked with Tim while he created the WWW, as we wanted the WWW software to be free software and the WWW to be open (goals that were also Tim's).

First, the WWW is a part of the Internet. Tim did not create the Internet.

Second, Tim did create the WWW to exist as part of the Internet. Ideas similar to what he created had floated around for decades - no one did anything with them - Gopher was the closest anyone had come - it's a nice piece of software and Internet engineering - but is a joke compared to the WWW.

What Tim did, was

1) create the HTML Programming Language (the initial language web pages were written in),

2) create the HTTP Internet Protocol (the way web browsers and web servers communicate over the Internet), and

3) wrote the software programs that were the first web servers and web browsers that used HTML and HTTP to create the WWW.

Before he did this, there was no WWW, after he did there was. He had a little help here and there, but it was his effort and leadership that made the difference.

MIT actively courted him to bring the WWW development effort to the US from CERN in Switzerland. MIT does not invite nobodies to Cambridge to join their research staff as lead investigators.

Now, what you WP editors have to do, is find the citations to finish backing this up, instead of writing comments on talk pages about things you know nothing about. best -len Lentower 15:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, HTML is not a programming language, but a markup language. I don't know how many times I have tried to explain people the difference, and it does not help that it is repeated here at WP - even on a Talk page. Secondly, I don't think anybody in the know of things seriously consider Tim was (and still is) important in the creation/evolution of WWW, but do not underestimate Robert Cailliau's role. --Frodet 16:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Markup languages are a subset of programming languages. It appears, that you don't understand the theory of programming languages, or the wider lingusitic theory they are part of. You could read a good graduate level text on the subject. I agree that it's important to understand the distinction. I don't underestimate Cailliau's role. But without Tim, he would not have worked on the WWW. Lentower 17:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it appears that you don't understand the difference between a computer language and a programming language. I suggest you read up on the subject yourself. As for Robert's role, he proposed a hypertext system independently of Tim. What became WWW was a joint effort. Furthermore, I don't think there would be the necessarry financial or organisational backing at CERN which resulted in the adoption there which prompted the adoption in the rest of the academia, without Robert. --Frodet 18:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Frodet. Markup languages came out of publishing and were intended to describe the structure of human-readable documents (the encoding of database structures as in SOAP came later). Programming languages merely tell a computer what to do, step by step. There are hundreds of books on this important difference, starting with Charles Goldfarb's own excellent books on markup languages. --Coolcaesar 05:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a larger issue here then the i said, you said contest going on. Bias in the editors of this encylopedia. The example cited in the WP guidelines is that most editors of en.wikipedia.org are Americans, and have difficulty writing from a global POV, that reflects all nations and all cultures. Here, you all are reflecting a bias. I'm not sure where it comes from. But it's clear you are all not well read in the history and theory of languages. You are accepting recent revisions of that history and theory from people with biases themselves. I haven't read Goldfarb, so don't know where his biases come from, and am unlikely to ever spend the time doing so, now knowing he is biased.

The early computer pioneers in the 1940s and 1950s, among everything else computer, developed programming languages. They also explored documenting their efforts, both how to write conference and journal articles using the computers they were building, and on-line documentation. They developed specialized programming languages, that had features that allowed documents to be formatted with fewer keystrokes, using specialized features. These formatting languages had sufficient control structures to fullly program computers. Partly for fun, and partly to show them off, many demo programs were written that used these formatting languages to write programs that did other things, e.g. scientific calculations. This was a difference in languages features, much more like the difference between say FORTRAN and Pascal, than the distinction trying to be made above.

As computing evolved, these formatting languages were dumbed down to what you all are calling markup languages. Mainly, because most documentation creators do not need the expressive power of control structures, and haven't been taught how to use it, so are confused by them. WYSIWYG editors and text formatting applications are a further step in this direction of helping simplify these tasks.

I note that even the biggest publishers, had barely started to have an IBM mainframe in their accounting departments in the late '50s, when this pioneer work on formatting languages was a decade along. It wasn't until the late '60s that the publishing industry started using computers for typesetting. E.g. IBM sale of strike-on typesetting systems, which still had control structures in it's formatting language. And not until the "PC revolution" a decade plus later, that desktop publishing came along, even in the large publishing houses. Yours for a better encyclopedia. Lentower 14:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Your understanding of the history of markup languages is completely incorrect. You really should consider reading some of the foundational works in the field, like Stanley Fish's books. Markup languages are based on completely different philosophical and theoretical origins than the primitive formatting languages you are referring to, especially because many of the key thinkers were not professional computer scientists. Goldfarb was a Harvard-trained lawyer who became a programmer for IBM because he loved rally racing and discovered that programming a mainframe was just like writing rally race directions. William Tunnicliffe was a publishing executive. And Stanley Fish was a book designer.

The point is to embed logical structure, not formatting structure, so that a stylesheet can be imposed upon the document at final rendering (and the entire document can be easily reformatted through the application of different stylesheets). The early formatting languages simply specified formatting on an ad hoc basis which is fine for short documents. However, as many of the inventors of markup languages independently realized (including Goldfarb, Tunnicliffe, and Fish), formatting languages with embedded control structures are terrible for very large documents on the scale of detailed technical manuals, nonfiction academic works, anthologies, novels, or dictionaries.

Switching to markup languages was intended not only to excise formatting, but all control structures from the document (thus reducing the risk of unpleasant side effects from large-scale changes to the document) and stick them into a separate language at the rendering level. This is not about abolishing control structures but simply moving them to a location in the workflow that is logically elegant. That's why SGML has DSSSL and XML has XSL. Obviously, this requires a huge amount of up-front investment into mastering a markup language and designing a document's logical structure, but for very large documents the superior output justifies the investment. --Coolcaesar 23:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

You are still showing your bias - recent history is what you know and assume is all of history - not worth more of my time for a talk page. Lentower 14:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Millenium Prize Winner Infobox

Isn't this a bit much? Neither nobel laureates nor presidents nor prime ministers have such a box. Shouldn't this be moved to the bottom of the page, as with every other title that changes hands? -- Exitmoose 06:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

no longer at ECS southampton?

Hi I think TBL is no longer at Southampton University.

He is not listed on the ECS staff page, and this paper credits him at MIT

http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/13347/

If this is the case this page will need to be updated.

Ckeene 14:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It looks like he may have moved back to MIT. --Coolcaesar 05:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you folks check the basic places, like asking the person in question, or checking their home page? I have my main job at MIT and a part-time job at Southampton. I never moved to the UK, or moved back. I vist several times a year. TimBL 17:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Link from httpd to NCSA-httpd is confusing.

I think the link from httpd to NCSA-httpd is confusing. The httpd from Tim is (quite) different from NCSA-httpd and NCSA-httpd was not made by Tim.

Jringoot 12:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Avid Kickball Fan

Is it true that Berners-Lee thinks kickball is America's Most Beloved Sport? I keep seeing that. Please update his page to talk about his love of sports, especially kickball. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.32.81.40 (talk) 09:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

Date of birth (DOB) - can't find any mention of it

Ummm so where/why isn't it included? Strawberry Island 16:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

See [1]. --Frodet 19:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

From which: "When in doubt about the notability of the person in question [...] err on the side of caution" who on Earth could have any doubt about the notability of TBL while at the same time using the web?!? Andy Mabbett 19:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

He also publishes it - 8 June 1955 - on his own web page. Andy Mabbett 19:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Minor point

The article mentions his "first wife Jane". That implies he has remarried, but there's no mention of it anywhere. Clarityfiend 03:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The narrative doesn't specifically say 'his second wife' but it is implicit in the later sentence that says 'his wife Nancy' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.218.160 (talk) 21:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Most distinguished person

Reading about Tim Berners-Lee, I noticed he has one of the most impressive list of honors I've ever seen. I tried to google the 'worlds most distinguihed person', but I could'nt find anything conclusive. But as a starting point, let's start with Tim Berners-Lee, and see if anyone could think of someone that tops him.

Weird Sentence

Does this make sense?

"becoming one of only 24 living members entitled to hold the award and use 'OM' after their name at any one time."

I think I would just take out the 'at any one time', but I could be missing something big here. It looks like it got edited without reading the whole sentence again.

Thanks.

Royalties/Patents

When he worked at CERN second time around he was presumably an employee of the organisation. If his fellowship started in 1984 then it expired initially in 1986, and could perhaps have been extended (unusual, but not unheard of). What his employment status was after his fellowship is unclear. The terms of employment are very clear. Intellectual property created at CERN by its employees belongs to CERN, and the organisation is bound under the terms of the treaty to make it freely available to academics all over the world. There was no question of TBL (or even CERN) patenting or otherwise restricting free use of the web/http. But I keep seeing it used as evidence of TBL's holiness, which I'm sure he finds amusing and baffling. Max sang 16:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)