Talk:Cider

Cecil Adams is generally pretty good at this sort of stuff, and the tale of his trying to track down the exact meaning of "cider" in the US is entertaining if nothing else. As soon as I saw the apparently hard and fast definition here, I thought of this piece, and figured I should point it out. -- Paul Drye

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Great article you found there Paul! I had no idea that there was so much debate about such things. May I apologise for my UK centered approach when writing the article and invite others to help us solve the juice Vs cider meaning in the US? -- Ddroar

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Hmmm.. Cider is generally unfiltered, but I have had filtered cider, and I have had unfiltered apple juice. Cider tastes different, it's more intense than regular apple juice, more tangy and tart.

Fermented cider is known in the US, but is generally termed "hard cider" to distinguish it from its non-alcoholic cousin.

Logotu 21:27 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)

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"In very large quantities (in excess of 2 gallons per day) scrumpy can cause temporary blindness due to trace amounts of arsenic found in apple seeds.". I'd have thought arsenic was the least of your worries if you're drinking 2 galls of scrumpy a day!! One pint has me under the table.... GRAHAMUK 23:02, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

...hence the following sentence, one assumes... —Ashley Y 01:39, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

Aresnic in apple seeds?

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. Apple seeds are believed to contain cyanide -- more specifically, they contain cyanogenetic glucosides -- cyanide (CN) bonded to a sugar -- produced by the plant. There's no evidence that they would contain aresnic -- a metal that has to come from the environment.

Lead arsenate was a commonly used pesticide in orchards of the early 20th century. Apples grown on old orchard land potentially could pick up this nearly permanent pollutant. More often the problem is noticed when orchard land is sold for development. Pollinator 15:39, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)

Visita la web de sidra tradicional Asturiana- Spain En ellas se explica de una manera sencilla todo el proceso de elaboracion de la sidra tradicional con las formas y husos heredados de nuestros antepasados. [1] [2]

Tambien un enlace a mi blog de sidra tradicional, donde además tengo algunas fotografias

blog and cider [3]

Where is applejack illegal?

The main article states that applejack is "illegal today in most countries". Is this really true. Where is it illegal, where is it legal? Unless we know that it is illegal in more than 1/2 of all countries, I would prefer to say that it is illegal in many countries.

Applejack itself isn't illegal; only the homeproduction of it. In most western countries at least, distillation of alcohol (whether by freezing or heating) is illegal. The most obvious exception is New Zealand (apparently because they all but privatised their tax collection). PS: Please date & sign your comments on these pages. You can do this by typing four tildes. 202.147.117.39 10:20, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I reorganized the applejack section a bit, specifying that home production of applejack is illegal in most countries, and emphasizing the creation of applejack over the illegality of the beverage.Nereocystis 22:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rearranged

Since non-alcoholic cider seems to be only known in one country I have swapped the order of the sections to put the alcoholic version first. I have also expanded "UK and Europe" to "the Commonwealth and Europe". I can't speak for other parts of the world, but I know New Zealand and Australia have alcoholic cider. The article says that Canada also has alcoholic cider, so "Commonwealth" isn't a bad generalisation. Ben Arnold 10:31, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Canada

I expect it depends on which part of Canada. A Canadian on the Straight Dope forum said he would understand cider to mean the non-alcohol kind. --Logotu 14:55, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rearrangement and clean-up required

Why is "real cider" a category of countries? Also the list of ciders brands, is it relevant? I haven't seen any of those? Surely they are UK, or US specific, and therefore should be moved the the relevant countries?

"Real Cider" is a subcategory of the UK because it's a CAMRA official definition, and CAMRA is only applicable to the UK (although they do have ties with a sister organization which supports European craft brewing; no such parallel organization officially exists in the US, although [4] fits the bill a bit) --Stlemur 13:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Relationship between "hard cider" and "fermented cider" ?

The lead sentence in the article currently reads:

Cider (also spelled: cyder) refers to a beverage containing the juice of apples. In Europe amd Oceania, the term refers to fermented apple juice, but in North America cider is normally unfermented, but when fermented it is known as "hard cider".

I think this sentence is misleading. I believe misrepresentation it starts is repeated throughout the article. And what I regard as misrepresentation has spread to other article.

I'd like to suggest an alternate wording. What seems wrong to me about this wording is that it doesn't recognize that cider is a traditional beverage that precedes the discovery of preservation by pasteurization and refrigeration by millenia. In the millenia preceding modern preservation techniques the only way to preserve cider was fermentation.

The alternate wording I would suggest is:

Cider (also spelled: cyder) refers to a traditional beverage made by pressing the juice from apples. Cider that has been allowed to ferment is sometimes referred to as "hard cider".

The article fails to recognize that, prior to the discovery of pasteurization, the only way to preserve freshly pressed cider was to allow it to ferment -- or to drink it within a couple of days.

The above text comes from Geo Swan, who neglected to sign his/her posting. It is apparently motivated by a concern that "hard cider" is not a retronym, as it is currently listed in that article. I added that entry because it seemed appropriate based on the material in this article. I would appreciate it if folks who know about the history of cider, including the use of the word "cider" and related terms like "hard cider", could consider GeoSwan's point and make any revisions they deem warranted. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I think Geo Swan's text is still a little confusing as it implies that apple juice is already termed "cider" before it is fermented - which is not the case as defined in most countries. User:EasyTiger 00:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Magners

I added a link to Bulmers Original Irish Cider for Magners as they are one and the same thing (it was renamed in the UK due to their already being a Bulmers Cider). Hope you don't mind.

Martinelli's

Would it be appropriate to put Martinelli's as a cider brand? It is mostly known for sparkling cider, but it also make non-carbonated ones too. Bibliomaniac15 01:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge Cider and Apple juice

As described in the article and the comments on this talkpage, in the UK (and apparently in most of the rest of the world) apple juice and cider are very different things (non-alcoholic vs. alcoholic). The comments above seem to suggest that only Americans and maybe some Canadians view cider to be a non-alcoholic drink. Hence I don't think it's appropriate to merge the two, as someone has proposed. Here are some alternatives that I think might work:

1. The article 'Cider' could be about the alcoholic beverage, with a comment at the top along the lines of "This article is about the alcoholic beverage 'Cider', also know as 'Hard Cider'. For information about the non-alcoholic beverage, see Apple juice."
2. As above but "...For information about the non-alcoholic beverage, see Cider (non-alcoholic)."
3. 'Cider' becomes a disambiguation page, refering people to Cider (alcoholic) and Cider (non-alcoholic).

The Apple juice article is currently quite US-oriented. It could do with a cleanup that reflects the subtle differences in the use of the term. Jamse 16:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've gone ahead and 'internationalised' the outlook of the Apple juice page - hopefully it now reflects the use of the term equally well for american and non-american usages.

I think the Cider article sould be about alcoholic cider, non-alcoholic 'cider' should be in Apple juice. LDHan 16:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

If that's to be the case, then the article should state at the top that this is the case, and direct North American users to the correct page. I've your ammendment so the article reflects both position, until the decision is agreed upon here. (For what it's worth, I'm from the UK, so cider refering to plain-ol' apple juice seems odd to me too, but this is an international encyclopaedia, so we can't just change it if that means it won't make sense to the entire population of North America) Jamse 10:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm also from the UK, the idea that cider is fresh apple juice is also weird to me, but you're right, different meanings of the word needs to be made clear. LDHan 15:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but merging is definitely a bad idea. 62.31.55.223 12:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully the big rearranging I just did between the two articles solves all of this. violet/riga (t) 12:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm also against merging the articles, especially with violet's rearranging - good call! John Smith's 17:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Good editing! LDHan 13:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Is ukcider notable?

Regarding a recent addition, the subsection on Real cider: Does UKCider meet notability standards? It seems to be a small community (a few hundred people) and the person who added the text is the head of that group. --Stlemur 00:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

ukcider is certainly notable within the context of Real Cider, which is a niche product the organisation champions alongside of Real Perry. It is not just a consumer organisation, but exists as an authoritative community of practice for craft cidermakers in the UK and worldwide. There are not so many remaining traditional cidermakers so a few hundred easily represents the large part of the industry. The membership may not be in the thousands like CAMRA, but then they are a beer drinkers group which is reflected in their insistance on having yeast present in cider, which is equivalent to wanting a layer of dead sediment served with wine, a drink with which cider has far more in common technically, than ale. The ukcider definition of real cider is therefore a necessary inclusion in the Real cider section, in order to redress the imbalanced view which may be perceived from reading only the real ale afficionados less well informed version, in the current one-sided version of the page. --Aroberts 18:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

In the sake of disclosure, Aroberts is the head of the ukcider group. I'd like there to be input from outside that group to establish notability...most of the links I'm finding on Google are the group's own pages. --Stlemur 23:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

If Google is to be the metric then try searching simply for "cider". What's the very first link?

For the sake of disclosure it should be noted that Stlemur is a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Beer --Aroberts 19:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

For that matter, what is CAMRA? It shows up earlier, in the Wales subsection, but nowhere did I find anything saying what CAMRA is. The Literate Engineer 14:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a link. I've moved the real cider section back to the UK since it's UK specific. It might in the fullness of time make sense to have a standards section, though, but the varying standards IMO would probably be easier to follow if defined under their respective countries. Man vyi 14:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to merge from Cider Festival

I propose that Cider festival be merged into this article. The article as written is a very short stub and I don't see it expanding farther than a one- or two-paragraph description and maybe a list of events. --Stlemur 14:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There's not much there to merge, is there. So this is really a proposal to delete an unhelpful stub page, which seems reasonable. --Aroberts 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

R. A. Fletcher book

What's the relevance of Richard A. Fletcher, Saint James' Catapault: The Life and Times of Diego Gelmírez of Santiago de Compostela to this article? --Stlemur 18:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

And FWIW, that text is inexpertly copypasted from [5]. --Stlemur 19:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Cider and Curries

Happened to notice the cider and curries link was removed. I think it's common knowledge that drinking Cider whilst eating curries improves the dining experience, and is certainly more favourable than lager or even the Indian beers. Well it passes my taste test...

Can you find a reliable, academic source to back this up? --Stlemur 13:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Does me devouring curries whilst on the Cider razz count at all? http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~pakcs/cider/

UK Cider: Real cider It is sometimes possible to find this in larger stores, usually in 2 litre flagons with a cloudy appearance and a ring of yeast sediment around the bottom. When you get home, put it in the fridge for an hour or so and then enjoy with a nice curry.

"It's a nice drop to have standing at the bar, and a lot of people like to have a pint with their meal. Cider has an affinity with spicy foods and it's one of the few things that really goes with curry." - http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/04/23/1019441236651.html

http://www.westcountycider.com/cdr-food.html

There's general agreement among all the cider makers I consulted that the drink pairs well with spicy Asian foods, including curries. Wade Bennett of Rockridge Orchard in Enumclaw especially likes such matchups. He serves cider with sweet and sour dishes too. Having served cider numerous times with Indian and Indonesian curries, we can heartily endorse the cider makers' enthusiasm for this pairing. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nwgardens/254442_smith05.html

Many curries are also made with cider vinegar. Doesn't take a scientist to work out which foods go well with flavours! I'll put it back in!

It's unencyclopedic and POV. --Stlemur 15:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Snakebite

Is a snakebite almost always lager and cider? I've heard of people having ale and cider but I've never seen it happen. --Stlemur 15:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

cider house

When I first came down to Berkeley there was still an example of a working cider house in the area. It was a farm cottage set in its own orchard; the cider was brewed on the premises, and cider was all it sold, I think. I think its demise was in part a consequence of the change in UK taxation in the mid 1970s. Anyone know of any current working examples in the UK? Linuxlad 22:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of any but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence...I'll ask around. --Stlemur 23:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

(Statistically it is :-). ) Search on 'cider house halmore' to track down the last example I knew locally - this was still working in the early to mid 70s. Please edit my addition, but don't remove totaly, becasue the basic drift is certainly correct Linuxlad

First of all there's the article's other statement that cider houses are alive and well in the Basque Country. Second of all, if we're using your definition of "a farm cottage set in its own orchard; the cider was brewed on the premises, and cider was all it sold", then there are a couple of examples in Wales, depending on exactly how strict you want to be about "cottage". A lot of these places don't publish internet addresses, though, but have a look at [[6]]. This is just Wales; I can't address Somerset or the West Country personally. --Stlemur 09:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[7] Ralph's Cider in Powys maintains a cider house. --Stlemur 09:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well there's no doubt that most have now gone around here (I phoned the other one advertising in Halmore to check :-) - even in this case she only had an off-licence, in recent years, I gather. The point I think is that until 1970ish they didn't need _any_ licence to sell their own cider in their front parlour. So there's a good reason why they folded. I've re-edited. Please try and reach a compromise which gets the point over, rather than just rm'ing Linuxlad

With all due respect, the claim you were making was simply untrue. You've shown that one cider house you used to go to has closed, and you're using that to say "there's no doubt that" they're gone now. Could you clarify, maybe, what you're trying to say? --Stlemur 10:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

We're editing at cross-purposes here! Firstly this is in a UK context, and more specifically a West Country one. In that context, I think my statement that is now there, 'there existed many cider houses, most have gone', is correct - albeit this is based on limited data, but it is not based on one point as you claim. Moreover, (and as an astrophysicist I'd hope this would appeal,) there are good theoretical reasons why this happened - as I understand it you didn't need any licence to sell cider in your parlour until the early 70s. But I'm repeating myself :-) Linuxlad

So what is that data, other than your personal experiences? --Stlemur 12:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In essence in this area there are lots of 'the old cider house' cottages which aren't that now and that I know of the last locally (but alas never drank there) and have often discussed it with others who might have corrected me. But, let me put it back out you - OK I'm wrong, there are really lots of old-style cider houses down here and I'm just not sufficiently old or well-travelled to know of them - make me an edit that reflects _your_ different position.Linuxlad

The information we have comes down to "There were cider houses. There may be fewer now, but there may not be." In light of that, I think we should just be silent on the matter until we have something definitive to point to. --Stlemur 15:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Pear cider

I had this last night. Apparently it's Swedish. "Kopparberg" or something. [8] Don't know if there should be a separate article or this one should be amended. GiollaUidir 14:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, see Pear cider. GiollaUidir 14:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Spinning off list

Should the list of brands of cider be spun off into its own article? --Stlemur 22:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The Channel Islands -- where?

Where do we put the information on the Channel Islands?

• Legally they're part of the United Kingdom, more or less.
• In terms of cidermaking tradition the text seems to imply that they're more Norman.
• At the moment they're in their own section.

I'm inclined to favor putting them as a subsection under France, because of the stylistic similarity and linguistic commonality. I think being on their own doesn't make sense as they're not an independent state, and this breaks with the standard presentation of the article; and putting them under Britain doesn't make sense because there's so little common heritage.

On the other hand, French cider from the southwest is more like Basque and Spanish cider (well, it is Basque cider) than it's like Norman cider. --Stlemur 14:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Legally and constitutionally, the Channel Islands are not part of the UK; culturally and historically, they are part of the Duchy of Normandy. Of course, Channel Islands is only a geographical term as politically they are two separate self-governing bailiwicks. Unfortunately, a British Isles geographical grouping would make sense from one point of view but would not be acceptable to the majority of the Irish. Man vyi 14:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Swedish Cider

Sweden has a LARGE market for cider as it is very popular here. Why is Sweden not on this list? It seems comprehensive, but needs Sweden added. Perhaps an expect can do this? If not, perhaps I will.

American Apple Cider is not Apple Juice

This article must be about both hard apple cider, as used in the UK with its population of 60 million, and non-alcoholic apple cider, as used in the US which, with a population of 300 million, has the majority of all natively English-speaking people on the planet.

Apple cider is not apple juice. Any American can easily differentiate the two in a blind taste test. While it does not have alcohol in it, apple cider is "soured" in the process of its creation, for a dramatically different flavor. --Kaz 22:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a difficult issue for Wikipedia. We need there to be two equally acceptable terms, one for the fairly universal alcoholic stuff, one for the almost-purely-American non-alcoholic stuff. Such terms don't exist (because, outside the United States, the term "hard cider" seems slightly ridiculous, and, in the United States, why should people say "non-alcoholic cider" if they don't want to)?

I say almost-purely-American because, when I was a boy (too young to drink English cider) there was a non-alcoholic equivalent in Britain too, and I liked it. But it wasn't called cider. I knew it only by its trade name, Cydrax, and I don't know whether it ever had a generic name.

The simple argument about majority of English speakers, incidentally, doesn't work. A great many of those 300 million are not native English speakers. And English Wikipedia isn't for native English speakers only. But the problem you pose is still a valid one.

Wikipedia sometimes handles such issues by disambiguation rather than by saying an article "must be". Will disambiguation work in this case? Andrew Dalby 09:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, since people in the US refer to it almost exclusively as apple cider, I did already split the apple cider of the apple juice article (which consisted disproportionately of hard cider advocates' edits oriented toward proving apple cider is not cider) off into its own apple cider entry. Since "cider" is any strong drink, it's always struck me as strange that brits call the alcoholic variety just "cider". Perhaps "apple cider" is too complicated to say if you've had too many pints of it, a problem which doesn't occur with the American variety. --Kaz 14:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, both usages are slightly odd historically (after all, American apple cider is not "strong drink" at all)! Andrew Dalby 19:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure it is...it can be almost like strong lemonade in impact, compared to mere apple juice. --Kaz 19:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's still a "soft drink" though. violet/riga (t) 22:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be exact, "Cider" (the word) always refers to an alcoholic beverage- it is from the Middle English term "Cidre", in turn from the Late Latin "sicera"- which means literally: "intoxicating drink". Patch86 18:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Futher mild digging even got me the etymology of the American usage- during the prohibition, it would appear a company called "Martinelli's" produced a specifically "non-alcoholic cider"- the term seems to have evolved from there. Patch86 01:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the term "American cider" can be used here. A very common ingredient to the cultural experience in Michigan and perhaps the entire US are autumnal trips to the cider mill where people buy cider and donuts. Pasteurized cider is far more tart and tangy than just plain unfiltered apple juice.. unless it's the unpasteurized, straight from the press variety. Nonetheless, the term Cider in America means something entirely different although no doubt related to the millions living in the US. Thus a term differentiation is in order. --68.22.19.194 21:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It's already done: look at apple cider.--Boffob 21:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Great! The Apple Cider page does a perfect job of describing the American style beverage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.22.19.194 (talk) 15:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

spinoff to List of ciders by country

A lot of the information on regional characters of ciders should be here, IMO; a list of brands of cider deserves a seperate article, of course, but the current division goes too far. --Stlemur 15:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

ingredients

Unregistered user claims, UK commerical ciders are made from fermented glucose syrup and chinese apple concentrate. Without references this is a little dubios, a few mins at bulmers web site suggests even in strongbow and blackthorn the vast majority ingredients is fermented apple jiuce with a bit of water, sugar and an acid stabaliser, hardly 'real cider' but still apples, the vast majority of which are grown in the UK or irleand. Bjrobinson 17:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

According to a cider maker I know, Magner's uses actual apples, but they use a variety called the Norman which is nearly flavorless but very economical. --Stlemur 17:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Freeze Distillation

"In freeze distillation, hazardous concentrations of methanol and fusel oil may develop." I would recommend this be removed for FUD; AFAIK both methanol and fusel fuels are created during fermentation, not the distillation process. Yashy 11:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The alcohols develop during the fermentation (especially during warm fermentation), but only reach harmful concentrations after the freeze distillation. --Stlemur 20:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Stlemur. The statement could be reworded to be a bit more clear, but it's factually correct. -MalkavianX 20:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps "As the alcohol by volume is increased with freeze distillation, it is possible a hazardous level of fusel fuels could be concentrated as well". I would also like to see the addition of an easy way to test this level of fusel fuels for the experimenter, as I believe this is a fairly rare occurance? Yashy 09:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Beefsteak myth

There's been a small edit war between Gonky and the others about the "beefsteak myth." Please leave some discussion here about why this section should or shouldn't be here. bibliomaniac15 01:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

It appears completely irrelevent and is written in unencyclopedic style. That's why I reverted it twice now. Hopefully I won't have to do it again...--Boffob 01:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

For some reason, though the article is without that contentious section, my second revert doesn't appear in the article history (or my contributions history). Is this a local problem or is it some global wikipedia bug?--Boffob 01:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I asked Gonky to leave an explanation. Hopefully, they'll reply soon. bibliomaniac15 01:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Should not be included surely. Strange myth to enter into this article... i have however heard about the one using a dead rat Bjrobinson 09:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

We apologize, it appears we were carried away by cider. The light of day has brought us into agreement with the consensus which believes the section should be deleted. We've attempted to delete but the pernicious material still shows. User:Gonky

Bug in the page?

I reverted edits by Gonky a second time but this edit never showed up on the history page (though the page appears to be as I last edited it). To make sure the change did occur, I tried reverting to the 17:00 January 8 version again, and yet again, nothing was logged in the history page. Has anyone else tried to edit the page since? The history page still states that the 01:17 January 9 Gonky version is the last edit. Does anybody know what is happening here?--Boffob 15:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I just tested and normal editing seems to be working. Is there any explanation why a revert would not appear in the edit history?--Boffob 20:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It happens to me too. I believe it happens when the browser is using an outdated cache. bibliomaniac15 03:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Lead in cider:

User:84.71.153.214 claims: It wasn't just the lead in the presses that was the problem, lead was also used to sweeten vinegary cider its poisonous properties disregarded in the pursuit of profit.

I find this dubious but it could be true. Is there supporting information? --Stlemur 13:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what period we're talking about, but it's difficult to imagine a period of history when lead would have been a more profitable sweetener than honey or sugar. In any case, I can't see that any sweetener would effectively mask the taste of vinegar. Andrew Dalby 14:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, now I see it was the 17th and 18th centuries. It is true that before the danger of lead was understood, the flavour of products that happened to be made in lead containers was liked. The sentence by User:84.71.153.214 seems to me to mislead with the words "also used" (implying that lead was intentionally added) and perhaps with "disregarded in the pursuit of profit", for which one would want to see a citation. Andrew Dalby 14:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The big "Cider history" edit

This edit here could, I think, be turned into useful content if we can confirm the source. --Stlemur 03:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Pint of Thatcher's is captioned different in two places in Wiki

In the cider entry is is labelled: "Thatchers traditional scrumpy cider in a pint glass"

But in the Thacther's entry in wikipedia the same picture is used, but is labelled: "Thatchers Traditional Dry Draught Cider in a pint glass, as served in a pub"

So which is it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.178.180.5 (talk) 17:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

As a regular Thatcher's drinker I am pretty certain it is scrumpy. --Cheesy Mike 17:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

By far my favourite tipple. I would say dry draught... its a bit crisp for scrumy, and a commercial brew. Bjrobinson 15:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Is "scrumpy" the same thing as "real cider"?

I'm a little confused about the definitions here. Many cider drinkers seem to be of the opinion that scrumpy is "the real McCoy" and that conventional ciders are a pale imitation. However, this doesn't appear to dovetail with the CAMRA definition of "real cider". Some questions:

• Is "scrumpy" the same thing as "real cider"?

If not:

• Is "scrumpy" always "real cider"? Is it possible to make scrumpy that is not "real cider" by CAMRA's definition?
• Is "real cider" always "scrumpy"? Is it possible to make cider that is not scrumpy yet still fits the CAMRA definition of "real cider"?

217.155.20.163 14:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a really good question. Let me add my US$0.02 - Scrumpy is real cider made here in the south west of England, with the proviso that all the scrumpy that I have seen (and drunk!) has been unfiltered and cloudy. So for me a crisp definition of scrumpy would be "unfiltered real cider made in the south west of England". --Cheesy Mike 15:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Bouché cider fits the real cider definition. but wouldn't be classed as scrumpy. To my mind, scrumpy would be non-sparkling rough cider. Man vyi 15:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

While we at what is or isn't scrumpy, "scrump" is a much more widely used term for stealing apples than "local dialect" implies. Web-found definitions tend to label it British and we used the word in London (well, more tree-laden Middlesex) over sixty years ago. SilasW 18:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Beer

I just removed the Wikipedia:WikiProject Beer link. Cider is not beer. It is brewed from different ingredients, using a different process, tastes different and looks different. I would be interested to hear why the person who put Cider into the beer project feels that it should be so. --Cheesy Mike 06:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It often gets lumped in with Beer (being a much larger category) by association- that is, they're both served by the pint, served on tap, and it is drunk by the same people who drink lager, in the same situations. The fact that they're entirely different in almost every important way rarely puts people off this- take the Campaign for Real Ale, for example, and its inclusion of ciders in its dealings.

In this instance, it's handy because the Wikiproject Beer can give this page a lot of well needed attention; and seeing as it doesn't fit in to any larger project any more comfortably... Patch86 19:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this reasoning. In the US and UK both, cider and beer appear side-by-side far more than, say, cider and wine; I think this might be true in France and Germany as well. The association is quite close although it's a fair point that as drinks they are entirely different (apart from that one style of cider with hops in it). --Stlemur 20:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Here in Belgium, cider is always stocked on retailers' shelves with sparkling wine, never with beer. IMO cider is much more closely related to wine than to beer, for the following reasons:

• cider never contains hops, and is never bitter;
• cider has the same categories of sweetness as wine: sweet, demi-sec, brut, etc.;
• cider is always sold in champagne-like bottles.

I for one would never associate cider with beer, they're just way too different. People who lump them together (Yanks & Brits) are just philistines ;o) --Targeman 21:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Cider is a wine not a beer the process of making cider is the same as making wine and is not the same as beer reff http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/twu/cider I would suggest putting under the wine category Ctjohnst 02:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

CAMRA include cider in their remit not because they think it is a kind of beer (they know it isn't), but because both drinks are the product of a local craft tradition, which should be defended (as they see it) against the large-scale producers. 62.25.109.195 13:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

West Country

Under the West Country section of the UK section it talks about Herefordshire and Worcestershire, which are not considered part of the West Country (although they make up the Three Counties with Gloucestershire, which is normally (although not always) considered in the West Country). Not sure how to reorganise best though, any thoughts?137.138.46.155 14:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Cider vs perry

This article suggests that cider is made from apples or pears. I always understood that cider is made solely from apples and perry is the equivalent made from pears. Shouldn't the pear info be removed from the introduction? Perry is dealt with further on in the article. 217.155.195.19 18:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

cite?

Overall, the UK produces five million hectoliters (110 million imperial gallons) of cider per year.

can this be cited? just seems like alot

This line caught my eye. Is hectoliters a common unit in English? It just looks weird to me. Why not say five hundred million liters, or half a billion liters instead of using hecto, which as far as I know is rarely used other than with the unit gram? /85.228.39.223 03:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hectoliters are what the EU has, for whatever reason, chosen to measure alcoholic beverage production, as well as the UK's alcohol regulations. --Stlemur 05:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

tooth

"It can be very acidic and contain high sugar levels. Excessive consumption can therefore erode the tooth enamel rapidly."

This sounds absurd to me; the same (debunked) claim is made about soda pop as well.