Talk:Karl Knutsson

Can someone make the infobox style match the succession box style? I tried for a bit and couldn't do that and float it... but my html isn't so great. Thanks gren 29 June 2005 22:45 (UTC)

Correct Name

Was this guy actually crowned as charles or Karl or what? Charles sounds to be suspiciously anglicised version of the name, especially as the article says he was called Karl something before becoming king. Surely the article should call him Karl if that was what people would have called him at the time. This issue affects a number of related articles where different versions of the names of different people are being used interchangeably. Can someone settle on one form (I would vote for the form actually used in the country concerned, assuming it can be written in this alphabet. Sandpiper 23:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Charles is the anglicization of Karl. Using Charles for him is no weirder than using it for Charles XII (who is most certainly always called that), using it for Charles III of Spain, and so forth. john k 01:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Charles is the anglicization of Karl. Using Charles for him is no weirder than using it for Charles XII (who is most certainly always called that), using it for Charles III of Spain, and so forth. john k 01:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, indeed, but what is the point of inventing a name which a person never used, and using that in an encyclopedia instead of his real name? Sandpiper 11:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Sandpiper is so right. Swedes, Norwegians, Germans and others effected do not like the "suspiciously anglicised version" of this name (well put!), though very few of them might be what they would consider impolite enough to admit it in English. The colonial or imperialistic tradition, which must have begun with France or England, where "Charles" is a name, is obsolete today, especially in American English. Carl, usually spelled with a "C", is an English-language name nowadays and should be allowed to stand alone on its own two feet as such. Though Voltaire wrote about one Swedish king as Charles XII, he was in fact writing in French. The "suspiciously anglicised version" followed that in what feels to many like a British attempt dominate eveything, and this makes people of the above mentioned nationalities uncomfortable. Would someone who knows how please rename all the previous Swedish kings by this name so that Wikipedia has them matching the current one, Carl XVI Gustaf? That's Carl I (Karl Sverkersson), Carl II (Karl Knutsson), Carl IX, Carl X Gustav (Karl Gustaf of the Palatinate), Carl XI, Carl XII, Carl XIII, Carl XIV John and Carl XV? (Carls III-VIII were inventions of a propagandist in the 16th century and never existed). (J T Demitz 01:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

"Translating" the names of kings is a long standing convention and is used by historians everywhere. For example all kings named "Charles" or "Carlos" are called "Karl" in Nationalencyklopedin. There's no reason to use another convention in Wikipedia. - Duribald (talk) 16:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

"Duribald" is on thin ice using Nationalencyklopedin as a reference or tool of argument in discussing the translation of personal names to English, a major international language. (Whatever the Swedes want to do with such things is of little or no concern to anyone else in the world.) "Duribald" is quite right though about the "long standing convention", but it originated long ago when there were no legal names, no legal spellings of any names and thus no way to be consistent or intelligent about these things. It also originated when most people didn't know how to read and had to rely on oral readings by others, if at all, to enjoy the written word. Thus it was and still is very important to use the phonetics of the language being read - for personal as well as geographic names - in order for a text about history to be smooth enough to get through at all. I whole-heartedly agree that all names should be translated into their legitimate forms in English texts and listings. What I tried to say above it that there are special conditions re: Carl and a small number of other names (such as Maria as legitimate as Mary) that have become names of their own in American English. The current King of Sweden numbers himself as the sixteenth Carl and his legal name is Carl Gustaf, not Charles Godstowe. Why not spell all his predecessors Carl, then, in a modern world, when it is a common and legitimate American name today? For all his predecessors, we can still use Reynold for Ragnvald, Anwynd for Anund, Christopher for Kristoffer (e. g.) and don't have to face anything else until a King of Sweden registers a legal spelling of Ragnvald or Anund or Kristoffer, according to the (very first) Swedish name law of 1901. To round off with Nationalencyklopedin again, and to show it some respect anyway, certainly it isn't going to list the current King of Spain as Johan Karl, though his legal name if Juan Carlos? Let's just all be reasonable in whatever policies we adopt and/or kling to. It ain't always easy...

Consistency with article on Christian I of Denmark

This article seems to have different details on the overlap period when Christian became king of sweden to those in the other article. (particularly who were regents/rebels) Sandpiper 01:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

naming convention- inconsistencies

I notice the article starts by mentioning Karl Knutsson (Bonde), the son of Knut (Tordsson) Bonde. Now, I am not familiar with this method of naming, but I take it the son is called Knutsson because he is son of Knut. My query is what about the brackets. Should they be around ....son, or Bonde (their family name?) The article should name people consistently. Sandpiper 12:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Family names were not commonly used in medieval Sweden and even within families which had one, they were not consistently used. Scholarly convention is to put these family names which were either not used consistently or not used at all until a later period in brackets, hence Karl Knutsson (Bonde) (family name used during the middle ages, but only by some members) or Jöns Bengtsson (Oxenstierna) (family name adopted only in the late 16th century). Karl Knutsson's father was usually known as Knut Bonde. The patronymic within brackets is in this case probably used in order to differentiate him from some relative also known as Knut Bonde. Uppland 12:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Scholarly convention here means genealogic convention, I guess. It is not clear to me that wikipedia should follow those. For instance, history textbooks do not write that way. // Habj 23:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)