User talk:Wndl42

Welcome!

Hello, and Welcome to the Wikipedia, Wndl42! Thanks for joining the fray over at the Corporate Personhood Debate article. It is too bad that corporate personhood has been translated, via redirect, into the Wikiality newspeak non-equivalent (and inappropriately capitalized) Corporate Personhood Debate. In any case, the article you have been editing needs to be retitled, or moved over to where it belongs at Corporate personhood. Here are a few perfunctory tips to hasten your acculturation into the Wikipedia experience:

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Sun Myung Moon

Hi, Wnd. Thank you for your lengthy analysis of my recent contribs.

You may be surprised to find that I agree with much of what you said. I will reply with indented comments on my talk page. In particular, I appreciate the depth of your analysis on the "charged/complained" thing. You are right, and if you haven't already done so, I'm going to revert my own edit. "Charged" is certainly the right word, and I'm happy that (1) you pointed this out and (2) took so much time to explain why it is the right word! :-)

See you at talk:Ed Poor. --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

And thanks for bringing up the subject and object relationship here. This is something I've been meaning to straighten out for decades (literally). --Uncle Ed (talk) 20:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

And also thanks for thinking carefully about the best way to word a subtopic like views on women. I have a quote rattling around in my head about men and women having equal value, despite having different "positions" or "roles". Maybe you can locate it? --Uncle Ed (talk) 01:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ed. You might want to check out my addition to the article Rev. Moon's theology seems to embrace a "physical form follows spiritual function" thoughtstream as regards Genesis -- which is the right basic idea, it follows many other eastern traditions in this regard. I wish he'd gone a little deeper down this path all the way to it's spiritual-linguistic roots before reaching his conclusions about Genesis in the "Divine Principle". For example, if Rev. Moon had taken the time to deeply understand the Hebrew language in which Genesis was written, he'd have discovered the much broader, deeper and (IMO) more beautiful view of man-woman that is told there, rather than the 'subject-object' metaphor. This view can only be derived when one uses the unfortunately and utterly insufficient hebrew-to-whatever language translations, ALL of which fail to adequately convey the mind of G-d as described in the original hebrew composition. I think this is particularly sad in Rev. Moon's case, as he certainly understands, perhaps more than anyone else, the myriad ways in which the Korean language is superior to English these purposes, and Rev. Moon has had lots to (rightly) say about this, but he fell into the "tower-of-babel" trap of presuming that Korean was the best language just because it was better than english. Anyway, what I see in the "subject-object" metaphor is shards of evidence of the common-to-all-religions "Golden Thread of Truth". Unfortunately virtually all of the world's judeo-christian derived faiths take their own linguistic interpretations and build dogma around them, and it's the dogma that divides rather than unites. UC dogma is particularly divisive in this regard, and in this, Rev. Moon shows an all-too-human failing. I hope that you and the other UC member editors will help focus some attention on the unifying elements of UC theology.

The connotations of the English words subject and object do not quite match the meanings of the Korean terms juche (추체) and daesang (대상), particularly as used by Rev. Moon. I really wish the translators of Divine Principle had left these particular terms untranslated, so that English readers would realize they have no precise counterparts in Western philosophy. --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I can agree to a point, but in the end Rev. Moon needs to be ultimately responsible for his words and "take the heat". I still think Moon's theology here, namely that women are "receptacles" for "seed", is sadly off-base. The extensive surrounding context in which he used those words leaves little room for reinterpretation regardless of any "translation" difficulties, indicating (to me anyway) that Moon has not (yet) understood the 'poetry' of Genesis as understood by native Hebrew linguists.riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 19:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice work

Nice work on Bible code! Λυδαcιτγ 07:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing in particular, just the improvements you've made in the past few days. Λυδαcιτγ 23:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration on Sun Myung Moon article

Thanks for all your recent contribs to SMM. I am particularly grateful for this copy-edit. You turned my thoughts, which were just off the top of my head, into properly-expressed enyclopedia prose! :-) --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, Ed...that's high praise for me (a strong critic of Moon and the Church) coming from you as a member of the Church. I am quite pleased that you see me as someone who can have a strong POV and yet strive for and achieve fairness and balance in my edits. I really enjoy working with you, especially because our collaborations have been productive in spite of our differences. Thanks for the kind note. riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 19:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with criticism. Anything that's good can withstand a few potshots; anything that's bad deserves the criticism anyway.

Now about theocracy, let's try to create a sort of workshop. Rev. Moon did indeed say that "...[the] United Nations should invite True Parents to take the position of Secretary-General in eternity." (source: Moon's speech on Foundation Day 1997) I have no problem with this: it's an exact quote.

Our only dispute is over what this means. Do you see it as a call for a one-world government? --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty much how I see it, on reading lots of stuff from the Church, and especially after seeing Neil Bush stand up front and center at the "Abel U.N." leadership conference in Japan last month. Great photo op, and lots of cool pictures.riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 21:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. Now please take a look at User:Ed Poor/Moon on democracy. I invite your comments. --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks, and I will look at Moon on democracy.....oh, and please check your e-mail. riverguy42 aka WNDL42 (talk) 21:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for mediation not accepted

A Request for Mediation to which you were are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the case subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/What the Bleep Do We Know!?. For the Mediation Committee, WjBscribe 12:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

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Bible code

I missed your explanation of why you thought my removals were excessive, and my comment "WNDL, I don't see why you restored the original criticism section..." was made in ignorance of that explanation. Pardon me.

Nonetheless, while I appreciate the importance of watching out for POV-pushers, I don't think that they justify keeping the old section, which was definitely full of POV, whether McKay complained about it or not. What I tried to do was cut down the arguments presented to brief summaries. Don't you think that's the most encyclopedic approach? Λυδαcιτγ 05:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Audacity, I'll respond briefly on your talk page, and then let's take the discussion to the article talk page, OK?

For now, let me say here that I don't agree that the section removed (which had it's basis in McKay's own original POV version) was "full of POV" except to the extent that it balanced the MBBK POV with the WRR POV. When I found the article, there was a strongly WP:UNDUE weighting in favor of the MBBK POV, reflecting and carrying forward the original MBBK bias to the extent that what I found there was a WP:COATRACK for the MBBK POV. WNDL42 (talk) 14:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Insight, Obama, etc.

Thanks for your hard work on all this. The articles seem to be in good shape now, hard hitting but not attacking individuals unfairly. Please let me know if any more problems come up. Cheers. Redddogg (talk) 18:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome

Thanks for noticing[1] my efforts. I just wish I had the time to offer more to the discussion. Good luck! - Tobogganoggin ^talk 02:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

GolfStyles magazine

I started an article on GolfStyles magazine, an upscale, expensive-looking full-color glossy monthly that's part of the Moon media empire, but it was immediately nominated for deletion. I suspect someone didn't read it carefully and I assumed I worked for the magazine. After that I added some more recognition, and explanation on the Talk page re notability. Could you take a look? I think people ought to know that America's most popular regional golf magazine (so I heard but have no reference) is published by Moon. I removed the deletion template (you can see it in the history), but it can still be deleted if an influential person thinks it should be. Perhaps you'd like to either add to the article or add to my rationale on the Talk page. -Exucmember (talk) 04:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Relevant google search...

here

Good ref here

anon

bleep bleep

What BLP considerations? Protection isn't an endorsement of any version (see m:The Wrong Version); I have this sneaking suspicion that I protected the wrong version. If there are serious BLP concerns in the current version (e.g. the person could email OTRS about it or whatever) then I'll remove those. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 03:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

grazie

thanks for stepping in and protecting my lair from creepy anti-Semitic infiltration :) Sorry I've been away from Bleep-land; I took a nap and then the amount of talk there went way beyond what I could catch up on. It might be good for everyone to take at least a few hours breather, and try to not cover arguments that have been argued multiple times already. At least let's find something new to argue about! :) Speaking of controversial bla bla, are you familiar with Julian Barbour? Quite good stuff, whether you agree with his thesis or not. cheeers, Boodlesthecat (talk) 16:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Wheeler of course I know from his wonderful semi-popular explications of Gen Rev. Bekenstein I will look into; I'll start by snagging the SciAm article (about my speed!), and let you know. Barbour I only recently discovered via a retired architect friend who recommended End of time. cheers Boodlesthecat (talk) 17:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Response to your comment

For an AdS spacetime, for which holography is on really solid ground, the "boundary" is indeed spherical ("boundary" because it's the conformal boundary, not a true boundary). However, no one really knows how to holographically describe our universe, which appears to have a positive cosmological (non-)constant. See eg http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.1129 for a recent effort at this. In general, I believe there are quite a few cases in which non-spherical holographic screens are a possibility.PhysPhD (talk) 00:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

PhysPhD, that was probably the most helpful comment and cite I've yet had on my talk page in this context, and I am indebted. The recent Leonard Susskind paper you provide as a reference is very helpful. As my professional work has been greatly influenced by Gödel, Escher, Bach, I was particularly grateful that Susskind invokes Escher so perfectly.

As regards "spherical"...from Susskind:

---

"The boundary of anti de Sitter space plays a key role in the ADS/CFT correspondence, where it represents the extreme ultraviolet degrees of freedom of the boundary theory. The corresponding boundary in the FRW geometry...consists of the intersection of the hat...with the space-like future boundary of de Sitter space. From within the interior of the bubble...represents space-like infinity. It is the obvious surface for a holographic description."

---

You correctly point out that while the 2-sphere-->3-sphere intuitive leap might be attractive to the point of being the "obvious surface", it is nonetheless incorrect as you say to pre-suppose that this is the only possible (or even likely) construction.

My contribution to the article will (I hope) make the topic more accessible to the lay reader, and I think (a) the "spherical" construct is indispensable in this regard, and (b) the current analogy in the lead; "if you have a room, you can model all of the events within that room by creating a theory which only takes into account what happens in the walls of the room." is quite inadequate in this regard. I will propose an alternative analogy for the intro on the talk page, and look to continue the discussion there. Thanks again for taking the time to discuss and enrich. WNDL42 (talk) 16:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Groupthink

I like the following. Perhaps you should make it into a Scratchpad, e.g. User:Wndl4/Groupthink, and we could work it up into an article. Or a Wikipolicy :-) Pete St.John (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Symptoms of groupthink

In order to make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms that are indicative of groupthink (1977).

1. Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
2. Rationalising warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
3. Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
4. Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.
5. Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty".
6. Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
7. Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
8. Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.

Thanks Peter, I appreciate the support. I have recieved a very nice collection of e-mails in support of the Arbcom enforcement complaint where I called this out, from users either unable or otherwise unwilling to speak up at the time. Apparently this speaks to a complaint that many other good editors share but have been unable to "put the finger on" what is actually going on here at Wikipedia. Thanks again for commenting here! WNDL42 (talk) 20:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I think if good comes from this (fighting with disputatious editors), it will be enunciating some new or refined policy. I've been thinking about "Don't be a Submarine" (stealth wikisophistry, and a pun on "Don't be a Dick"), proposing a wikiproject Ethical Disputation (which sounds less catchy), etc. Pete St.John (talk) 23:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Stenger

Hi Wndl42 - nothing to do with the What the bleep article but could you please point me - directly - at Stenger's comments regarding What the bleep? If you get time please, I would be curios to give them a quick read. Thank you. Really2012back (talk) 01:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. By the way, just as I was giving up that any editor on What the bleep had a sense of humour the title of your reply to me: "Hi again Really...Bleeping critics!!!" made me not only laugh but cough my cup of tea all over my keyboard. Thanks ;-)Really2012back (talk) 02:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPOV DUE

Dear Wndl42,

I thank you for your contributions concerning my proposals to get more clarity on the DUE WEIGHT issue. I've drafted new proposals, and would welcome any improvement or critique you may have! Thx,  — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 09:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• Yes Sir, thanks for your thanks, and I am indeed male, as you assumed. I greet you, --Sir Xiutwel 10:22, 1 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xiutwel (talk • contribs)

Thank you Wndl for your "Barnstone". I am honoured and feel humbled if I am seen as someone who can help the Wikipedia project in even the smallest way.(olive (talk) 14:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC))

Bleep

Honestly, I doubt that SA will go to mediation, that has not been his style.Can you compromise on the lead in any way.(olive (talk) 19:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC))

Well, I think I have offered dozens of ideas for compromise, each one rejected explicitly or stonewalled. There is no compromise on WP:NPOV, as you know, and as long as the lead flagrantly attempts to set a "tone", it will never pass WP:NPOV. Here is what I mean:

Authors set a tone in literature by conveying an emotion/feeling or emotions/feelings through words...In literature an author sets the tone through words. The possible tones are bounded only by the number of possible emotions a human being can have.

Diction and syntax often dictate what the author's (or character's) attitude toward his subject is at the time.

An example:

"Charlie surveyed the classroom of dolts, congratulating himself for snatching the higher test grade, the smug smirk on his face growing brighter and brighter as he confirmed the inferiority of his peers."

The tone here is one of arrogance, Charlie refers to his classmates as "dolts" and the quip "inferiority of his peers" shows Charlie's belief in his own prowess. The words "surveyed" and "congratulating himself" show Charlie as seeing himself better than the rest of his class. The diction, including the word "snatching", gives the reader a mental picture of someone quickly and effortlessly grabbing something, which proves once again Charlie's pride in himself. Characteristically, of course, the "smug smirk" provides a facial imagery of Charlie's pride.

I can't accept the "tone" as the current lead (and proposals) convey. Now, as two editors have clearly stated their absolute and unmoving desire for such a tone, I see no way out except for a mediation. If SA wants to kill it again (I think he'll have a hard time given all the compromises that have been offered), then so be it. WNDL42 (talk) 19:27, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, one of my undergrad degrees, and some of my graduate work is in Literature. I have been at this for a very long time and the tone is much improved over some other versions . I guess thats where I am on this. I could compromise, because I feel the tone is approaching neutrality in some places. Please note I do offer another version, somewhat more neutral. If you want to go for mediation go for it, but a mediation does not mean that anyone will agree with the comments from the mediator(olive (talk) 19:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC))

No. Wikipedia can't compromise on NPOV but unfortunately NPOV isn't objective... thats "the rub"(olive (talk) 23:56, 3 March 2008 (UTC))

Thank you Wndl .... this looks wonderful .... I being part Celt and all...and being in pursuit of beauty(olive (talk) 03:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC))

nice Wndl .... Thanks.....mostly Scottish Celt and a little Irish, apparently.(olive (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC))

E-mail

Hi Wndl42, I finally got around to enabling my e-mail as you suggested. Keep up the good work, although we don't always agree. Redddogg (talk) 23:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Holographic principle

Thanks for your comment, it sounds interesting and I will add it to Template:String theory, I think this is more appropriate. For an introduction how to edit PyhsicsNavigation templates have a look at Template:PhysicsNavigation. If you have still some queststion about this special template or in general, please feel free to ask. (Sheliak (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC))