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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Snthdiueoa (talk | contribs) at 09:42, 22 March 2008 (→Ahmed Adnan Muhammad Ajam). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Ahmed Adnan Muhammad Ajam

Ahmed Adnan Muhammad Ajam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

You have to be crazy to say that the Guantanamo Bay detention camp is unnotable. That being said, it does not mean that every prisoner that was or is held at Guantanamo Bay is notable. There has been over 700 detainess held at one point on Guantanomo Bay. Should there be an article on each prisoner? Of course not. Except, of course, if there's substantial coverage about the person that WP:BIO requires. This article in no way shows any sort of media coverage on this specific person. The refs provided are just a bunch of Army files were he is listed as a prisoner.

The creator of this article Geo Swan (talk · contribs) continuously creates these articles even after similar articles go through afd with the vast majority of them ending up as "no concensus", "redirect", or "delete". Some examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've added "edit" to my addition, it has absolutely nothing to do with making you look stupid (though I think you claiming that I'm in "clear violation" of a suggested guideline is doing a fine job) - it has to do with me clarifying my position. Let it go. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 21:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:ILIKEIT. Please give relevant reasons for the non-deletion of the article. I don't know where you are getting your info about law school (is it a joke?).--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Try reading the article before proposing it for deletion next time. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 09:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nominator asked where Sherurcij got the info about attending Osama bin Laden's law school? One of the allegations Ahmed Adnan Muhammed Ajam faced was

The detainee stayed at a legal college in Kandahar owned by Usama bin Laden."

Anyone can find that allegation in the article and on page 84 of this source, and on page 93 of this source.
Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 17:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this is merely a confusion of the issues. Whether he attended law school (as Sherurcij originally claimed) or just regular college (as now claimed) and whether it is mentioned somewhere in the hundred page complaints or it isn't, is immaterial. Osama having a school is no way connected to the notability of this subject. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please actually read what your correspondents wrote, before you reply. Please reply to what your correspondents actually wrote.
Three memos that summarized the allegations against Ahmed Adnan Muhammad Ajam have been published. They were drafted in 2004, 2005 and 2006. Each of these memos was published together with memos against other captives in three separate pdf files that are each about one hundred pages long. But the 2004 memo is one page long, and the 2005 and 2006 memos are just two pages long. These memos aren't "somewhere" in one hundred pages of complaints, as asserted above. The article's references clearly specify which page(s) within the pdfs the memos are found on. No one is asking readers to read articles random articles they may not be interested in. But I think we are entitled to have those who nominate or comment on articles that have been nominated for discussion to read them with sufficient care that they don't make unsupportable claims about what those article contain.
If it weren't a red herring, I might read it more carefully. But his school attendance has no connection to his notability. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As DGG pointed out about a similar article: "The individual people are notable; what has happened to each of them is a matter of international concern." I can't see any Guantanamo Bay detainees being non-notable. The arrticles may have other failings, but I don't think they should be deleted on these grounds. -- Kleinzach (talk) 04:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How the Guantanamo Bay detention camp provides for the due process of its prisoners is a matter of international concern, and that is why the detention camp is notable. The issue here is wheter each and every prisoner is notable or not. And the question that has to be answered it whether there's substantial coverage of the subject of the bio. I also think that that the issues surrounding the Guantanamo Bay detention camp are a matter of international concern but that has nothing to do with each prisoner. This article is a classic example of WP:COATRACK. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COATRACK says: "A coatrack article is a Wikipedia article that ostensibly discusses the nominal subject, but in reality is a cover for a tangentially related bias subject." however this article is focused (well or badly) completely on its subject. It doesn't discuss Guantanamo Bay in general. --Kleinzach (talk) 04:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article "in reality is a cover for a tangentially related bias subject" no matter how much it focuses on its subject. The creator, in previos afd's, repeatedly states that the importance of the lack of due process that Guantanamo Bay detention camp provides to prisoners is the reason for the non-deletion of the article. It doesn't get anymore WP:COATRACK then that. Indeed, your reason for non-deletion pretty much says the same. There is a confusion with an important issue and people that are pawns in an important issue. The former is notable, not the latter. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:18, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nominator's assertions about WP:BIO misquote the guideline. Nomination states: "...This article in no way shows any sort of media coverage..." -- the nomination claims WP:BIO requires "substantial coverage". What WP:BIO actually says is:
A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject.
The WP:BIO guideline says nothing about a requirement for "substantial media coverage". I urge anyone who thinks it does to go back and re-read it for themselves.
Some challengers have stated that the OARDEC documents such as those this article uses are unsatisfactory sources, because they are merely "primary sources", not "secondary sources". I took a closer look at the definitions, and it seemed to me these sources are secondary sources. These documents were drafted from multiple sources, by an independent agency. So I posted queries on WP:BLP/Noticeboard#Primary source, or secondary source? and WP:RS/Noticeboard#What constitutes an "independent third party source"? I encourage anyone who doubts the sources comply with policy and WP:BIO to take a look at those discussion.
Note: I politely asked the nominator to review those discussion back on March 7 2008 -- when they initially {{prod}}ded this article. I am very sorry that I have to report that the nominator proved unwilling or unable to offer any kind of reply whatsoever. Geo Swan (talk) 16:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This box sits right on top of the WP:BIO page:
(emphasis added) significant (in other words "substantial", but significant is actually a higher standard) coverage is actually the most important factor of Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion.
Noone here is arguing about the reliability of the sources, that's merely a confusion of the issues. There is one issue - and one issue only - is this person notable or not. Nothing so far has shown that he has any notability. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification please -- are you now acknowledging that the WP:BIO guideline does not, after all, require that the significant coverage, or substantial coverage, be from a media source? Geo Swan (talk) 20:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The memos were independently drafted, by a separate agency from the task force authorized to detain and interrogate the captives. The authors of these memos reviewed source documents from the FBI, from the CIA, from the USA's Criminal Investigation Task Force for Afghanistan, from the office of the Deputy Assistant Secrectary of Defense for Detainee Affairs, and from foreign intelligence services. After reviewing these documents the OARDEC authors reached conclusions, and listed justifications for his continued detention. I would like someone to explain why this should not be regarded as significant coverage, or substantial coverage.
Ahmed Adnan Muhammad Ajam, in particular, stands accused of working for a charity that was a front for financing terrorists, and for being named on a list of those scheduled for military training from the other side. I would like someone to explain why this is not significant. Geo Swan (talk) 20:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification given -- Whether goverment documents are reliable sources or not (I don't see how they are, the US goverment isn't considered reliable) is a non-issue here. If not one media outlet (and there are plenty that are riled up about the whole Guantanamo Bay process) has decided to write an article about him then its impossible to say that he has recieved significant coverage required by WP:BIO.
If you are going to keep asserting that the WP:BIO guideline requires media coverage then please cite the specific passage that states this. Geo Swan (talk) 21:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I never asserted that WP:BIO guideline requires media coverage (although I can't imagine that it doesn't). I stated that I can't see how an argument can be made that a person has recieved significant coverage required by WP:BIO when not one media outlet had even mentioned him in passing!--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would still appreciate nominator, or anyone else, offering an explanation as to why the OARDEC memos do not fulfill the "significant" recommendation of the WP:BIO guideline. Geo Swan (talk) 22:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You asked why it "is not significant" that Ajam "stands accused of working for a charity that was a front for financing terrorists, and for being named on a list of those scheduled for military training from the other side." I don't think that this is significant in itself without further evidence that it is. In particular, these accusations have not been established as being either considerably more serious, or considerably less serious, than the accusations against the hundreds of other detainees who are or who have been held at Guantanamo Bay. The fact that the body assigned to review the continued detention of Ajam generated a memo about him, as they did for numerous other detainees, does not appear to be "significant coverage" of his case. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I've just drastically re-written the lead information on this detainee, at this point. I feel this improves the article and helps establish his notability. I believe that if the original author also uploads the transcripts for the subject's ARB and CSRT proceedings to s:Wikisource:Guantanamo, then this will make it a clear-cut "keep" case, rather than the debated status it currently has. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 20:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. The article has not been drastically rewritten. It merely has gotten some background information. The problem with the article - unestablished notability - has yet to be rectified. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This is one of 645 separate articles about prisoners at Guantanamo Bay (the whole list is at Category: People held at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp). Unless one operates under the assumption that all prisoners at Guantanamo (or for that matter, at the Supermax in Florence, Colorado, or at a Chinese camp for political prisoners) are inherently notable, then I don't see that Ajam is more notable than any other person who is incarcerated. Mandsford (talk) 20:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No offense, but I think the argument that Guantanamo captives are just like other prisoners is based on misconceptions. I have had dialogs on this, and saved one here Guantanamo captives aren't felons and aren't POWs.
In the interests of brevity I moved four paragraphs to the talk page.
Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 22:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reasons for distinguishing Guantanomo Bay detainees and other prisoners don't make or break Wikipedia notability policy. There must be significant coverage, and after all these kilobytes of discussion there has yet to be provided one media source that discusses this person. The long talk of the lack of Due Process provided to these prisoners is further proof that the article was meant to be a coatrack. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator has mispoke in referring to a "Wikipedia notability policy". Like WP:BIO it is a guideline. And it says:

"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive.

I invite the nominator, or anyone else, to cite a passage from the article that they think represents original research.
The memos the article uses as references do refer to Ajam, directly, in detail. They refer to him by name, in fact.
If we had a source, maybe a Syrian newspaper, that asserted that all the remaining Syrian captives in Guantanamo were being tortured, it would require original research, interpretation, to insert the conclusion that this meant Ajam had been tortured.
I think the phrase: "...and no original research is needed to extract the content..." prohibits inserting that kind of conclusion in the article. And I don't believe the article makes any such interpolation.
If, for the sake of argument, the article did contain that kind of interpretation, the solution would be to remove or rewrite the offending passage, not to delete the entire article. (FWIW this is just an example. I have not come across any sources that suggest Ajam was tortured.) Geo Swan (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • WRT WP:COATRACK -- Nominator keeps referring to Coatrack. So I re-acquainted myself with this essay. It describes seven types of Typical coatracks. If this suggestion is going to be repeated I would like those repeating it to state which type(s) they think it is an instance of. It seems to me that this article is not an instance of any of those types.
And, if, for the sake of argument, this article did contain passages that did not comply with the advice in this essay, it has a section entitled: What to do about coatracks. The advice in this essay is essentially the same as that in Wikipedia:Notability -- remove or rewrite the troublesome passage. The essay specifically reserves article deletion only for "...extreme cases, when the nominal subject is barely notable and there is little chance the article can be salvaged." Geo Swan (talk) 00:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Guantanamo Bay detainment camp-related deletion discussions. —Geo Swan (talk) 22:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Syria-related deletion discussions. —Geo Swan (talk) 22:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have been asked to review the counterarguments and to comment. In addition, I've looked at the declassified Combatant Status Review Board site, which is the source for the arguments for detaining or releasing a particular prisoner and is listed on www.dod.mil/pubs. And while I think that articles about the Guantanamo Bay detainees in general should be fully supported, I don't see that each individual detainee merits a separate article. It's unprecedented that there would be an internet site that would have detailed information about each individual imprisoned at a particular facility, and it comes about in this case because of American federal court orders directing the American Department of Defense to make that information available. It's unprecedented also that Wikipedia would have articles about each person who has been imprisoned in a particular facility. There are very few groups where each individual is considered inherently notable. Wikipedia has a policy providing for a nation's legislators, for instance, to each merit their own article. Wikipedia has such a policy for individual athletes playing in a particular sports league. If there is a policy that applies directly to Guantanamo Bay detainees, then that takes precedence over our own personal preferences. However, I don't think that there's a policy that applies directly to Guantanamo Bay detainees. And judging Ajam as being notable in the sense of being mentioned specifically as an example of the plight of detainees held without trial, or as a significant participant in the activities of al-Qaeda or the Taliban, my opinion is that he is not notable. Mandsford (talk) 03:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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