Talk:Shintō Musō-ryū

The Isshin-ryu "headmaster"-reference

I finally found the original reference to Kaminoda sensei being the "recognised headmaster" of Isshin-ryu. Its found on the Northern Virginia Jodokai which belongs to Kaminoda Senseis organisation. "We follow the teachings of Kaminoda Sensei of the Nihon Jodokai in Tokyo. He is Menkyo Kaidan, hachidan hanshi, chief instructor at the Zoshokan temple dojo in Tokyo and the recognized headmaster of Isshin Ryu kusarigamajutsu". I used that site as a reference in the early versions of this article before I got more solid sources. In retrospect perhaps using a Kaminoda Sensei dojo-website for reference regarding this particular matter was a bit unwise. I'll not re-include the "recognised headmaster" part in the article based on this alone, and it seems there are no other sources. Fred26 09:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you could email them for clarification. I will be back in Tokyo next week and I could ask Kaminoda directly. I am sure he could clear that up and possibly give some more information on the general status of Isshin ryu. So far he has always been approachable on these mattersYnambu 13:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Shiraiishi"headmaster"-reference

I noted the change from official Headmaster to unofficial on the photo of Shiraiishi. What's the source and authority on deciding the title of headmaster of SMR. Io date nobody I have interviewed doubts Shimizu as headmaster in all aspects. I think, like the Isshin ryu headmaster thing, it all reads a bit murky. It's a important subject that deserves clarification.Ynambu 13:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes you are right it should be discussed.

What makes an official headmaster? A valid question. Otake Risuke of Katori Shinto-ryu is the officially appointed headmaster of KSR. He was appointed the headmaster by the heridetary legal owner and properiator of the ryu: Soke Yasusada Iizasa. If other people claim to teach Katori without permission from the Soke then they are not teaching Katori Shinto-ryu period. This is a genuine no-doubt "headmaster".

The situation in Shinto Muso-ryu is very different. In SMR now there is no single designated owner or authority and there havent been since the days of Muso Gonnosuke and the 3 men that followed him. After the first split and onwards the various lineages of the same ryu existed side by side and the lineages even "inter-married" (for lack of better word). So there was no excommunication of factions that didnt comply to any owners commands, for there was no owner.

An unofficial headmaster in Shinto Muso-ryu, if modeled on Shimizu Takaji, seems to be a man with exceptional skill in the art, combining with pioneering selfless efforts to spread the art both nationaly and internationaly and keeping strong connections with other masters both within and outside the art, (the former which were prolly his own students anyways). He held a great natural authority that was not given to him but earned, for there never was a single governing body of a single unified SMR to present it to him. Otofuji, though Shimizus junior, doesnt seem to have imitated and introduced Shimizus Jodo in Fukuoka, so a unified front doesnt seem to have been the case either eventhough there was cooperation. Shimizu seems to have had the power of a headmaster and even been referred as such late in his life by others (news-papers, budo-orgs), but his power was not complete and still not official within the collective SMR-communitive. For instance, Shimizu created and adopted the Gohon-no-midare kata series into his teachings but this wasn't a universal adoption. Had Otake Risuke decided to introduce a new training-method then you can be sure the people in the main Dojo would have adapted accordingly.

After Shimizus death, Otofuji Sensei, in the position of the last surviving senior student of Shirashi Hanjiro also held a natural authority, but from everything I've heard and read he couldnt take over Shimizus previous role and influence. Actually you could ask Kaminoda Sensei yourself about that time just after Shimizus death and Otofujis manouverings. Kaminoda was at the "front-lines" when all this happened so to speak so he could probably tell you alot more than me about that.

All this seems to be what Shiraishi was also: He held great authority, cooperated with other master, not only with other Jo-practitioners but with the Budo-world such as Jigoro Kano and he made efforts to spread the art by sending off his students to teach in Tokyo and prolly elsewhere too. We musn't forget that it's equally true both now and before there werent a single Shinto Muso-ryu, but more than one. Uchida Ryogoro, who was Shiraishis senior by 5 years and had recieved a Menkyo in the "Haruyoshi"-line under Hirano Kichizo before Shiraishi, had taught SMR-jo in Tokyo long before Shimizu set up shop there. Uchida also influenced Fukuoka (Shiraishi) by introducing the Sutteki-jutsu (Uchida ryu tanjojutsu) there which Shiraishi adopted into his own SMR. Shiraishi may have been the boss of his own Shinto Muso-ryu and leading in spreading it, but his SMR wasnt the only one around as explained.

Speaking of Uchida, his lineage doesn't seem to have made much impact unfortunetly, though Nakyama Hakudo did transmit an incomplete and different version of the SMR Uchida taught him. Not sure if Uchida-linneage has survived outside Nakayamas group.

In short, I believe that unofficial headmaster is the best we can do at this point for both Shimizu and Shiraishi. This doesn't diminish their status or their importance. Sorry for long post. Fred26 09:04, 25 June 2007 (UT

Nice post. I'll think on it this week and do a bit more research at the diet library. I'm going to Kaminoda Dojo in Shibuya on Saturday but I think its best if I write to him beforehand to see how much he's willing to talk about. I know some areas are sort of touchy. I have written to Matsui asking for an appointment when he has time.

Next subject - I wonder then who can we say was the last *OFFICIAL* headmaster and just how that position was decided? Ynambu 11:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend you ask Kaminoda sensei about this as he has the earliest known densho scroll of SMR: the "True Path" (Shintō) Musō Ryū Bōjutsu dentō". Fred26 12:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, in regards to your Isshin-ryu headmaster inquiry. I believe that this falls under the same condition as the SMR-headmaster question: Everyone with a Menkyo in SMR and Isshin-ryu is technically an independent master with no single authority (as it is right now anyways in the SMR-community). I dont know for sure, but since Kaminoda Sensei holds in his possession many of the SMR (and prolly Isshin-ryu)-documents than perhaps he feels he holds the legacy of Isshin-ryu more firmly than others and thus warrants a special "headmaster"-title of Isshin-ryu. You dont have to quote me on that though. As you wisely said some things are still touchy to bring up. Fred26 12:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, you have my compliments that you take time to actually meet with Sensei(Matsui and Kaminoda) to verify/check information. Its a far cry from other people I've talked to such as in the whole "Nishioka Tsuneo doesn't have a valid menkyo according to Matsui, Kaminoda and Hiroi-argument several months back. Its good to see people with good intentions rather than just to smear other people. Fred26 12:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Kata - About the number of -

You have written 'Sixty-four is the number of jo-kata taught by the groups that follow the teachings of Shimizu Takaji'

Actually no, because if you are 'following teachings of Shimizu Takaji' you will be doing 'Gohon no Midare' which adds 5 more kata to the Fukuoka 64 (omote 12, chudan 13, Ran ai 2, Kage 14, Samidare 6, okuden 12 & gokui 5)

Did you mean 'Sixty-four is the number of jo-kata taught by the groups that follow the teachings of Otofuji Ichizo' Ynambu 11:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no. "64" kata is a very old entry in this article and I havent given it much thought lately. The number of kata is dependant on how we count and there is several ways printed. Technically there are 13 kihon but the last is counted just 1 time as it is a left/right variation (in some sources I've seen). Kage has technically 14 kata but 2 of them are variations so some state Kage as a 12 kata series. Unfortuntely I was caught off-guard by all that when I first entered the "64" and the other kata-number related entries. I'll go through it tonight after practice. Sharp eyes by the way. Fred26 14:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

"Technically there are 13 kihon" - You don't mean 'kihon' there right - Let's not get confused here - we are not talking about kihon at all. There is documentation on the 64 kata being equal to omote 12, chudan 13, Ran ai 2, Kage 14, Samidare 6, okuden 12 & gokui 5 - variations are included. Ynambu 15:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say: People count the kata differently and I used kihon as an example of that. The original confused "64 kata" I wrote long ago was based on various sources who count the kata differently and this didnt exactly help. If you want an example: This Jodo-group count 12 omote 12 chudan 2 ranai 12 kage 6 Samidare 5 gohon no midare 12 okuden and 5 gokui, a total of 66 in this particular case. I've read 62 total kata in another online source though I cant remember the link to it. So picking what source to follow can be tricky when even Matsui himself states that Kage has 13 kata eventhough some count it as 14. Pascal Kreiger puts it in his book "Samidare comprises 5 kata plus one variation" which one can interpret as it being 5 kata in samidare. Is there 12 kata plus one variation in Chudan or is it simply 13 kata? It's a mess and the examples above was what I had to work with when the original "64" figure first came up to me. It will be fixed one way or another, trust me on that. *edit* Oops, I wasnt logged in when I signed this post. Fred26 19:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok Sorry I understand. I have been up all night so my reading and comprehension skills are greatly dimished. I'll do more research later this week. I am going by the count given in the Jodo Kyohan but as I don't have it here it might be a good start out question for Kaminoda on Saturday. Thanks for making the archive BTW. Ynambu 19:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Its no prob. Sometimes my head gets so tired I cant even spell or compose a full sentence. I'm gonna go through the (more) reliable sources I have and see if I can find a definitive way of counting the whole shebang. From the looks of it right it seems every group has different ways of counting, including Kaminoda Sensei. Shouldnt be no problem though with a bit of work. Fred26 21:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I visited Kaminoda Dojo Saturday and came away with a lot of written notes which I will work on this week. I had planned to record everything but couldn't get my very new Sony recorder to work (I bought it in akihabara one hour before going to the dojo - not a good idea) anyway I was invited back on Thursday for some sort of grading. I did confirm the 64 kata count as being that which I mentioned previously. Also these past few days I have been in email communication with Mr. Jon Bluming who studied together with Mr. Draeger around 1959-1960. He has been very helpful. Ynambu 12:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The one and only Jon BLumming :-) [1]. I'll rig something up with the counting of the kata and explaining the fact that different groups & senseis seem to count them differently. It's good that you took notes from Kaminoda, though I'm not sure how we can actually quote "notes from interview with Kaminoda". Fred26 12:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Well actually Mr. Bluming wrote back very quickly and offered any information he had. I was vey impressed by his gracious manner and willingness to help. He told me he started in 1959 and took 3rd dan Jodo and Iaido in 1961 at the same time as Mr. Draeger and 4th dan in 1966. He must be one of the very first at such a level at that time. Re: the kata count Well as Mr. Kaminoda merely said his count was the same as was written in the Jodo Kyohan I suggest we use that as the reference (he did write the book it after all - sorta dumb of me to ask really) Ynambu 14:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been reading this article with much interrest, as I am practising jodo for some time now, and was wondering why the 3 tokushu kata are never counted, not only in this article but I didn't find them anywhere on the net. According to my teacher who was in Japan in the late 60's Shimizu Sensei left out 1 of the 3, so I have been teached only 2 Oishi2002 10:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The Kanji database is finished

I have finished the Kanji database of SMR terms. It currently has 4,600 characters all cross referenced. It was harder than I thought. I have all the kata names listed for all the ryu ha and all the techniques within the kata for the ryu ha. About half are pretty universal to all teachers and groups (Kihon waza etc) but some techniques and kata just about have a different name or Kanji or if same Kanji then different reading for every group. Makes your head spin because just when you think you have a 'standard' universal reading and you put it into 'Google Japan' whoops up pops another SMR group with another set of readings. Anyway it's done and now I'm taking a few weeks off to go to Izu for holidays. Have a nice summer guys. Ynambu 14:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Say hello to Anjin-san for me :-). Fred26 17:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Didn't see Anjin but nearly fried to death in the Summer heat. Feels almost good to back in Tokyo. Ynambu 15:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

26th and 27th headmaster

I have be translating some Japanese jodo websites. This website http://homepage3.nifty.com/aijokai-tomita/sub1.html writes that after Shimizu died Hamachi became the 26th headmaster and after he died Nishioka became 26th headmaster (this is confusing I think) and that now the son of Hamachi is the 27th Shinto Muso ryu headmaster. Is this information accurate? Gusta Novak 17:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Well as noone seems to think this is wrong I will change the article to show this new headmaster then. I think this is very new news.Gusta Novak 09:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Shinto Muso-ryu today does not have a single recognised headmaster. Please note "recognised". The various groups are independant of each other and no single organisation under a single leader exists. Some people proclaim Otofuji as the 26th. In other words there are multiple claims but none are universially recognised as there is no single Jodo-org to recognise the claim. The article should remain as it is in this regard. Fred26 09:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

My question is then which authority can say there is no headmaster or there is a headmaster. It could be that you are wrong to say there is no headmaster (please I am not saying you are wrong but just discussing the matter) What auhority can we go to that shows either yes or no. Gusta Novak 10:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be under the impression that there HAS to be a single organisation or authority. There are many orgs. There is no single authority to say who is a headmaster. There is no single organisation with the authority and permission by the entire Shinto Muso-ryu community to name a single headmaster. Kendo has a single organisation with a single "council of elders" (so to speak) to implement changes into their system. SMR-Jodo has no such org or single individual and has not had one for 300 years or so. Shimizu Takaji was referred to as a headmaster mostly by the media but he was not formally appointed as such by his peers in Jodo. He had a strong influence in Jodo, and he was Jodos leading personality and face outwards for much of the 20th century, not to mention he was a senior surviving student of Shiraishi Hanjiro, but there was never a formal japanese ceremony within Shinto Muso-ryu were he was given this task, or any sort of headmastership. When he died other people tried to fill his shoes and take on the title as next headmaster but failed.

The only way for a headmaster to be appointed today would require the involvement of all the branches and individual group-leaders of the entire Shinto Muso-ryu community. Even if such an organisation were to be founded here and now there are lots of technical differences between the groups and to conform to a sort of standard teaching would be extremely difficult to implement. As it is today there are individual groups in various sizes under one or more Menkyo Kaidens. In some cases they work together with other groups, such as the European Jodo Federation and the Sei Ryu Kai, but thats as far as it goes. If someone wishes to proclaim himself the next headmaster of Shinto Muso-ryu then thats their choice, but it wouldnt be one grounded with firm grasp of the reality of the situation. Fred26 12:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I read the indicated website. Nothing much too it. Yes, it does say that Nishioka and-or Hamachi are the 26-27th headmasters but it's obviously just somebody's over-enthusiastic opinion. 15:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

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Hello again all

Right..Long story short. I'm on a wikibreak and I have been on one since August. The reasons for that are many, but the main one was that I had way to much stuff to deal with (and still have), both in real life and on wikipedia. It wasnt a question of simply scaling down the wikipedia but rather to either do it full time or not at all. I chose the latter.

I'm not back fulltime just yet. When I do my main goal will be to finish adding & editing the "organisations" sections of both the main article and "History of Shinto muso ryu". I will also seriously reconsider the value and future of the "grades in (insert organisation here)" section. I'm also considering removing and integrating the "Notable Shintō Musō-ryū practitioners" into the text. Exceptions would be people that cannot be mentioned in the same way as, for instance, Otofuji Ichizo. Pascal Krieger can be mentioned in the "organisations" section and his entry in the "notable practitioners" can be removed afterwards and so on.

After I'm done with the above I will have reached the end, at least as far as my own level of Shinto Muso-ryu knowledge is concerned. Afterwards the main deal for me will be to clean up the article and make sure it holds to wikipedia standards. I cannot take on any more responsibilities on wikpiedia after that due to my need of focusing my energies elsewhere.

Fred26 (talk) 22:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutral photos

Please edit the photos to remove the 'jodojo' marking or let's put in more neutral photos. Thanks Ynambu (talk) 09:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Waited one month. I will go ahead and edit the jodojo markings out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ynambu (talk • contribs) 09:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If you feel driven to perform what is basically unnecessary surgery (so to speak) then by all means. Dont replace any of them though. The markings are allowed by wiki-standards and doesnt violate any POV-rules. Fred26 (talk) 11:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I feel the photos are fine. I don't think it matters if they have brands. It's like a copyright, more or less. You have to get permission from the source (photographer, website, dojo), under GNU and POV. ;-0 pain in the rear!

Mekugi (talk) 11:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)