Talk:RAND Corporation

Achievements

I think achievements section needs an overhaul/reformulation at least this part looks rather questionable to me:

"The achievements of RAND stem from its development of systems analysis. Important contributions are claimed in space systems and the United States' space program, in computing and in artificial intelligence. RAND researchers developed many of the principles that were used to build the Internet. Numerous analytical techniques were invented at RAND, including dynamic programming, game theory, the Delphi method, linear programming, systems analysis, and exploratory modeling. RAND also pioneered the development and use of wargaming."

You cannot claim all the achievements of people (in particular university professors) who've been technical consultants to RAND at some point as achievement of RAND. For instance i ndicating that RAND (or its researchers) have invented game theory is rather ridiculous, game theory was around before RAND even existed.--Kmhkmh 04:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The same is true for linear programming, which was used in WW2.

There are definitely quite a few unsupportable claims in this article. I wonder if there are some pro-RAND people out there trying to influence it. Smocking (talk) 01:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Politics

Per several of the suggestions below to address RAND's political lean, I have restored a specific example of a noted scholar (Noam Chomsky)'s criticisms of RAND, including quotes from a RAND senior economist, all properly attributed. These were deleted by Larklight, with the comment "Nothing to do with RAND". I find this a bit hard to follow, unless ... Larklight, if you read this could you please clarify your relationship with RAND? Namesinger (talk) 18:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Should someone mention that they're evil and conservative and run the world along with international zionist protocols of the ancient floppy disk? 'Coz that's sort of a "fun fact" about RAND...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.5.26 (talk • contribs)

Don't think this comment is particularly appropriate, Mr. 66.169.5.26. And I don't appreciate the use of the phrase "international Zionist," it smacks of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion...   –Gravinos (Politics is the stench that rises from human conflict...) 07:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, a discussion about their political lean should indeed be discussed. Kent Wang 06:46, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, there is some stuff at Disinfopedia, which is GFDL as well. .. and in fact, I thought there was a link from here to there. :/ Guaka 13:34, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

LOL... people never cease to amaze. Just shows your ineptitude at research or even simple observation, first poster (wish I had gotten on here earlier!). If it weren't for RAND you wouldn't have quite a few of the tools and conveniences you likely utilize on a daily basis. In addition, their research fueled space exploration, mathematics, and the first theories and plans for the Web. That's just historically, (yes I know the involvement with Vietnam but tell me who else could have done a better job? Any research facility would have done as bad if not worse... but regardless what's interesting now: My mother works at RAND and in the last two years it seems they've swung dangerously to the Left in policies and practice, threatening their often highly regarded non-partisan and objective mission and attitude. 24.130.190.199 06:43, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of RAND's political leanings, is there any basis for things like Aegis Maelstrom's "Its mission is to help improve policy and decisionmaking through research and analysis. Its core values are quality and objectivity."? Other than as corporate boilerplate? Bananafish 06:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Should there be a mocking quote in the intro? Wouldn't that be better served further down in the article? --71.112.173.51 19:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I created a new section "Opinion and culture" and moved the quote there.

--akds 02:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Rand involvement in authorship of HR1955 and SR1959 has now become a matter of public interest that merits discussion. Is this article the appropriate context, or is there another that would be more suitable? -John, an unregistered user

Where does the name come from

Is there a reason why the project was named RAND? Does it stand for anything? (Random Article Naming Device, for example)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.168.11.165 (talk • contribs)

try reading the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.137.16 (talk • contribs)

Organizations and people who predicted the collapse of the USSR

Re: [[Category:Organizations and people who predicted the collapse of the USSR]]

Quote:

In 1968 Egon Neuberger predicted that "[t]he centrally planned economy eventually would meet its demise, because of its demonstrably growing ineffectiveness as a system for managing a modernizing economy in a rapidly changing world."20

20. Egon Neuberger, "The Legacies of Central Planning," RM 5530-PR, Rand, June 1968, quoted in Gertrude E. Schroeder, "Reflections on Economic Sovietology," Post-Soviet Affairs 11 (July–September 1995): 197–234.

From: Cahn, Anne H. (September, 1998). Killing Detente: The Right Attacks the CIA. Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN 0271017910. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |year= (help) 3 Reviews

Signed:Travb 07:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Similar organisations in other countries

Are there similar organisations in other countries? I think it'd be an interesting addition to the article, if any exist.--Anchoress 01:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

    Yes, but nothing of comparable size or influence.

Sources of Funding

To make this entry consistent with similar entries on other non-profit entities, it would be helpful to add a section on the corporation's finances and sources of funding.

Not just helpful, but essential! How can an article on an organization that generates analysis of current events not contain information on its funding! That's on the same scale as not noting the owner of a newspaper, etc.

notable employees

We should spin that section off into its own article. Also, I was thinking that a template and/or category might be appropriate. Does anyone have any preferences. Smmurphy^(Talk) 04:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. There has been no discussion, hence no consensus to move. I have no opinion—I am just wielding the admin's mop. ●DanMS • Talk 04:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

RAND → RAND Corporation — less ambiguous —Ewlyahoocom 06:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

can we trust it when

rand edits it's own page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.4.127.20 (talk) 17:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

Larklight:

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appeared to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.

Larklight's assertion that a quote from a senior RAND economist, Thomas Wolf (cited by Noam Chomsky and properly attributed), has nothing to do with RAND is difficult to understand in constructive terms. I note also that Larklight's claim below that Robhogg's edit (also critical of RAND)is unsourced is mistaken: while it may not be fully or properly sourced, it is attributed, and IMO at least marginally relevant. Namesinger (talk) 04:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It is easy to understand. Those sections never criticised RAND, only US f. policy. Larklight (talk) 08:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The criticism is of a senior RAND economist supporting a militaristic philosophy of U.S. foreign policy. It is unclear from the quote (and irrelevant) whether Wolf is proposing policy or defending existing policy. The point is that the statements being criticized were made by a RAND official, and thus the criticism is of RAND. If Larklight doesn't think Noam Chomsky's comments here qualify as criticism of RAND, perhaps Larklight could explain what would in Larklight's opinion qualify as criticism of RAND? Or if Larklight is in fact asserting that there is no real criticism of RAND, perhaps Larklight would be so kind as to say so outright. 208.251.94.251 (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

1) If Chompsky were to say 'RAND is evil' or 'RAND made x mistake and makes it often' or 'RAND was responsible for this false inteligense, leading to this' or even 'RAND are so secretive that no-one knows what they do so we can't hold them accountible', that would be criticism. Or if anyone else of note said it.

2)a However, the current two sections do not constitute criticism of RAND. 2)b Infact, they hardly even constitute criticism of US f. policy: While uit's implicit, it is never actually mentioned that the policies are bad.

3) Finally, just becuase one official says so, does not mean it is the official RAND POV. Infact, I doubt they have one. Please find a source that criticises RAND- not one that mentions RAND and then criticises someone else, or even criticises one official. Larklight (talk) 19:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

By Larklight's logic, one could accuse RAND of directly sponsoring murder, treason and rape, but this would not qualify as criticism unless these were specified as "evil" or "mistakes". I maintain that any reasonable person would understand this quote from Chomsky as criticism of RAND in the person of a RAND official. I stand by the quote, believe it better represents the concensus of the community than does Larklight's deletion, and will continue to restore it until I or someone else finds a better example of criticism of RAND.

Larklight:

Please stop your disruptive editing. If your vandalism continues, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.

Namesinger (talk) 00:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I made three points. Now numbered for ease. [with 2) spilt into a and b] You're replied to 2b, but not the more important 1), 2)a or 3). Please don't continue to add it in until you have. Infact, you haven't actually really addressed 2)b- no-one advocates murder, rape etc. (I'll leave aside treason) as ends. However, clearly people do suggest (the contents of the comment) as means to an end. As such, please respond to 1), 2)a+b and 3) before you re-insert

And please don't use an obveously inapropreot vandalism warning. If you wish to template the regulars, I have a feeling you should start with level one. Larklight (talk) 21:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

An example of good criticism is that of Gregbard Larklight (talk) 21:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I added another, but I'm sure there is more hard-hitting criticism published out there than these. These both are both quite apologetic to RAND. That book Prisoner's Dilemma has some interesting stories about RAND. Pontiff Greg Bard (talk) 22:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

____

The following passage was included under criticism, but it reads more like criticism of the game theory than of this corporation. It is also unsourced. Therefore I moved it here:

Game theory was studied and promoted by the RAND Corporation as a way to model human behavior and 
influence government policy. As noted in The Trap, 
when RAND's analysts tried the games on their own secretaries, they disobeyed the ground rules that 
they should behave selfishly and try to outwit their opponents, choosing to co-operate every time. 
This did not, in the eyes of the analysts, discredit the theory, but instead proved that the 
secretaries were unfit subjects.

Str1977 ^(talk) 19:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the source for this, but it is, actually, a criticism of the research methods used by the RAND Corporation in a particular study. To exclude data on the grounds that it does not fit your pre-conceived notions is an abuse of the scientific method. Robhogg (talk) 16:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Unsigned Comments...

What's with all the unsigned comments? Note to Commentators: sign your comments!   –Gravinos (To each their own*      _{*as long as they leave me alone.}) 07:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

RAND is not the American Research and Development Corporation (AR&D)

A note that I will just put here for now since American Research and Development Corporation (AR&D) does not yet have its own article as of this writing. RAND is not AR&D. AR&D was the first publicly owned venture capital firm. See Georges Doriot. The founding of AR&D is also mentioned in Flanders, Ralph E. (1961), Senator from Vermont, Boston: Little, Brown, pp. 188–189. — ¾-10 03:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Security AT Rand

Because of the nature f research at RAND it has always had very good security. The One time I went there with a former employee to meet with a current employee in the mid 1980s The gaurd addressed the former employee by name saying that he could not let him in. The guards were required to remember who each person who could enter was by site and to address and great them when entering or leaving! Saltysailor (talk) 06:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)