Talk:Colin Powell

Military Career

Does it seem strange to anyone else that 35 years of military service is summed up in 4 paragraphs (the same length in paragraphs as the civilian life section, covering his post retirement life) with a huge focus on who he served under and their impressions of him (and vice versa)? Looking at his list of medals there is an impressive list of decorations, but no reference as to how he got any of them, including a purple heart (when was he in combat or wounded?). I was wondering if anyone with information regarding his military career could polish this section up a little and fill in some of the large holes. -Sean

His Command of FORCES Command at Ft. McPherson in Atlanta is missing from his bio. It was between NSA and Joint Chief. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.44.253.1 (talk) 15:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Headline text

• talk page archive

-link to the DoS site for the remarks with the foreign minister is broken, please fix.

Race

There appears to be vandalism in this section. (Jesus Christ as ancestor reference and such. Please check. 69.209.96.202 01:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Scott Free 17:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)==Proposed removal of "African-American" tags== Powell's ancestry is Jamaican, as his parents are immigrants from said country. Referring to him as "African-American" is therefore incorrect and rather stereotypical. --AWF

I agree. Colin Powell is more correctly referred to as a Jamaican-African-American or as a Caribbean-African-American. Contemporary use of the term African-American refers to those Americans of African descent that trace their heritage to the black experience in America before the 20th century. - JC

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.155.46 (talk) 06:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Wait a minute. So Barak Obama is African American but Colin Powell isn't? That's BS. Colin Powell is an AMERICAN of AFRICAN descent. That's pretty simple isn't it?Scott Free 17:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Not quite - if we're going to be accurate he's an American of African and European descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.85.154 (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that Colin Powell being categorized as an "african american" is kind of a misnomer because he is jamaican, not african. See, that is whats wrong with the label "african american". It is very presumptuous, since black people don't just come from Africa. Maybe you should reconsider your categorizations more carefully. 19:50, 5 August 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.46.216.255 (talk • contribs) .

In reply to the above: However, the black people of Jamaica DID come from Africa.

So? He's like...African-English-Jamaican-American then! The whole racial thing shouldn't be an issue in my judgement. I think years from now, humans will look back and be ashamed that race was even noticed. --Raogden 23:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the text which said he's not African, which is inaccurate. Also it claimed that Colin Powell said he wasn't African American. Source for that quote? Whether it's a misnomer or not, Colin Powell is the first African American secretary of state, at least according to the state department:[1] Pfalstad 22:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

In his book "My American Journey" Colin Powell says himself that he is not african american. His family is not from africa at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.21.3 (talk) 02:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

People. He is not from Africa! His parents aren't from Africa. He is of Jamaican descent. How could he possibly be 'AFRICAN AMERICAN"? I don't want to start flaming but how much more fucking simple can it get? Some people's political correctness gets in the way of their brains.

According to the biography, "Soldier", Powell wouldn't want to be discussed in terms of his race, but rather in terms of his achievments... and rightly so. Why not remove this unecessary moniker. Leave such references in the proper section, on his heritage as a black Jamaican, Jamaican of African descent, whatever. Colin Powell transcends race to become simple a great "American". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dchamberss (talk • contribs) 23:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Errors on page?

Did General Powell serve in South Korea in the late 1970s? If not, then there are errors in the article. For example, the article states: "As a young Colonel serving in South Korea, for example, Powell was very close to General Henry "Gunfighter" Emerson." But under Dates of rank, it states he did not make colonel until 1976. The DMV would be a possible place to serve following the Vietnam conflict, but the article should be more clear on this point. Another issue is the matter of highest ranking. Since my ancestors are only most remotely from Africa, I will not claim whether the General is or is not an African American. I wonder about the office that garnered him this claim. Doesn't the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff outrank the Secretary of State? Perhaps it should say "civilian government official" or "civil government official". -Acjelen 04:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Powell served as a battalion commander in South Korea for a year, from 1973 to 1974, at which stage his rank was Lieutenant Colonel (a rank for which the correct term of address is still "Colonel"). Still, I'll modify the line to make it a bit clearer for most readers. As for the highest ranking issue, senior civilian government officials always outrank military officers, including the JCS. That's part of the principle of civilian oversight of the military. — Impi 11:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

battalion commander equals rank of captain or major.. in Vietnam you said he was a major. a Lieutenant Colonel outranks a Major.. how is this possible? in Korea was a LtColonel and in vietnam .. 10 years later was a Major???

In case this is not clear to anyone else, he served as a LTC under occupation in the country of Korea after the Vietnam war. He was not involved in the korean conflict. Leppy 04:32, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with this sentance:

He appeared on the networks that were broadcasting New Year's Eve specials and talked about this honor, as well as being a native of New York City, ABC, CNN, [8] and Fox News Channel.

Does this mean that he is also a native of ABC,CNN and the Fox News Channel? Because those are networks, not locations.RiseRobotRise 18:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

He served as a LTC in Korea from 1973-1974 20 years after the Korean War ended. We still have troops in Korea. The Korean War ended in 1953. Powell did not become an officer till 1958. In the late '60s & early '70ws there was limited fighting taking place in Korea. I believe around 70 US Army troops where killed during that period. It was not full scale war. It was mostly ambushes and sparadoic attacks.

Political Views - the citation listed for "fucking crazies" is an article in the Guardian. However, the Guardian cites the book cites the James Naughtie book The Accidental American: Tony Blair and the Presidency. The entry mentions the Naughtie book in the next sentence as a second reference, which is incorrect. It is more appropriate to cite the Naughtie book as a primary source, not the Guardian story.

There are no records of Colin Powell becoming an honorary member of Sigma Phi Epsilon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.101.1.115 (talk) 21:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

WMD & Security Council

I can't believe how good this article is, given the number of contributors. On the WMD thing at the security council, I recall a documentary in which Powell himself stated that, in order to fix responsibility for the intelligence he was about to rely upon in his presentation, he made sure that George Tenet was seated directly behind him. Assuming the recollection is accurate, then it does demonstrate quite a devious and compromised way of thinking, perhaps confirming the qualities shown by him in the My Lai and Jenin episodes.--shtove 20:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice if we could use this pic: http://www.abc.net.au/news/galleries/2003/powell/images/pic14.jpg (I'm not sure about the licence) but it's a precious moment of history. AdrianTM 22:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I would be interested in what others felt at the moment when they heard the speech at the UN. I was in my car, and thought it was a weak and un pursuasive arguemtn, but I am very leftwing and biased against the Bush administration. At one point, Powell played a tape of an Iraqi officer angry that his subordinate had a better vehicle. And I thougth, of course - as in any institution in the world, a boss gets angry when the underling has a better office/secretary, whatever.Cinnamon colbert 20:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I assumed that Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction, because the US supplied them with WMD in order to help them fight the Iranians and Kurds. But this is an emotive term - I assumed they had small remnants of chlorine gas and anthrax and no way to deliver them. So I paid no real attention to the speech. It surprised me later to find that Powell and Blair were arguing that Iraq had the power to threaten the US. But go back and read what Powell said. The claims were incredible and totally unpersuasive to any informed person. --70.53.43.178 08:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, granted. But they persuaded the UN Security Council, among others the ambassadors of China and Russia at the UN. So, there is only one word which defines Colin Powell: swindler. He is the biggest swindler in world history. He faked a casus belli before the United Nations, live on television. The idea that he was cheated by Curveball's testimony is ludicrous, because Powell is no amateur. He consciously spread Curveball's phony claims. He said that there was not one Curveball, but three of him, who were direct witnesses to the Iraqi WMD program. Perhaps he was a bit drunken and he saw more men in place of one. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Russia, China, et al were not pursuaded because Colin was lying, but because they knew he was telling the truth. Pretty ignorant and arrogant of you to think you know more than all the intelligence agencies of the countries on the UN security council, IMO.

But let's try to find some balance here. It is clear the Sadam was pursuing WMDs, no one even reasonable objective denies that and no one seriously refutes it. As congress overwhelmingly agreed under bipartisan support for the invasion. The bone of contention is not actually whether Sadam was pursing WMDs, but whether inaccurate and incomplete evidence was presented in making the case for the war. Which seems to be the case. The article focused only on the later point and deliberately abscures the former. I have corrected this by adding a couple of reference supporting the conculsion Sadam was seeking WDMs, while leaving in credible sources qustioning the quality of the intel used to support it. This is a more balanced approach and also shows more clearly Gen. Powell's historic role in the controversy.

If we include heresay by interested parties (on both sides of the isle) from political talk shows (including notoriously inaccurate and partison NPR/PBS), we will end up rehashing the entire WMD debate and this is an article on POWELL, not WMDs, so please keep this section balanced and credible with _appropriate_ and cited references.

Thanks ~KC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dchamberss (talk • contribs) 18:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Powell's contribution to drop in USA's popularity

At the time I write this, the following sentences are in the Powell article:-

Powell's great asset was his tremendous popularity among the American people. However, over the course of his tenure he traveled less than any other U.S. Secretary of State in 30 years, which may have contributed to the declining image of the United States abroad.

I raise a couple of points. Firstly, there needs to be substantial evidence that it was Powell's decision to travel less that caused this, given so many other very significant events, namely September 11 and the Iraq war.

Also, are we talking of popularity with the world's citizens (the sentence before talks about popularity with the American people) or popularity with other world leaders? I can understand an unwillingness to travel may be a setback diplomatically, but, until further evidence is produced, I am willing to believe that many people not in the US, much prefer Colin Powell's dovish doctrine to that of President Bush.

I am not saying that Powell has not contributed to America's loss of popularity, but I think there needs to be some evidence presented if the article is to say this.

(For the record, I live in the UK)

--Philipdw 21:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Powell and Plame

His possible role is summed up nicely in this msnbc piece:

{...} on a long Bush trip to Africa, Fleischer and Bartlett prompted clusters of reporters to look into the bureaucratic origins of the Wilson trip. How did the spin doctors know to cast that lure? One possible explanation: some aides may have read the State Department intel memo, which Powell had brought with him aboard Air Force One. [2]

Future Government Career?

Anyone know if he plans on running for President, or Vice President in '08?

When asked in a Daily Telegraph interview in February 2005 if he had ambitions for further public office, he said:

"Ambitions, no. Plans, no. But who knows what the future holds? Run for office? Absolutely not."

Grant 12:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Military decorations

I just updated and corrected the military decorations based on the page's jpg photo; however, I now have some questions. (1) What is the source of this photograph as being General Powell's? (2) Why is this different than upper-body biography photo, which has less awards? (3) I added reference to the Good Conduct Medal with silver (4) loop (aka, 9 awards) - HOWEVER, why is an officer receiving the Good Conduct Medal; all I read is that it is an enlisted award. :djharrity 17:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Officers can be awarded the Good Conduct Medal if the have at least three years of active military service as an enlisted man. Since Colin Powell was never an enlisted man he would not have the medal.

Please note that Powell, being Jamaican born, it is not constitutionally possible for him to run for the office of (vice)president.

Colin Powell was born in New York. So he could run for President or Vice President. Bunns USMC 15:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I added his Order of Bath to his Military decorations as is awards was in the Military Divtion of the order

I removed the section "Awards and decorations" as it included only 3 military awards that were already covered in the more exstensive "Military Medals and Ribbons" section immedeately below it. (Sonlee 19:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

Coat of Arms

It is stated that the Lord Lyon's Heraldic authority was asked to devise his heraldic acheivement because of his Scottish Ancestry. Whilst his ancestry may be in part Scottish (Powell is in fact a Welsh surname), this would have no bearing on the Lord Lyon's involvement. It is customary for the arms of Commonwealth subjects to be granted through the Scottish Heraldic Authority - this would hav been the case even if Powell's father lived in England now, and would be the case for any Commonwealth subjects - except Canadians who now have their own College of Arms. I have amended the text int he article accordingly.

Personal background

As far as I can tell, this section was removed without explanation on [[3 whose talk page consists of two vandal warnings. So I've put it back – hopefully, tailored to fit in with intervening edits.Grant 23:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I DONT KNOW WHY PEOPLE WANT TO LABLE PEOPLE BLACK JUST BECUSE ONES OF THERE PARENTS WHERE BLACK OR HAVE BLACK IN THERE PAST BACKGROWN IN THERE FAMILY. THIS DOES NOT MAKE ONE BLACK,IT MAKE THEM MULTIRACIAL/MIXEDRACE.

Yellowcake forgery

The article currently says regarding Powell's UN presentation:

Some of the claims were taken out, but others were left in, such as claims based on the yellowcake forgery.

Which is footnoted to http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0715-05.htm

The yellowcake example doesn't show up in that article and Yellowcake forgery#Butler Report says that Conclusion 499 of the Butler Report says that the British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" was well-founded so its misleading to call it the yellowcake forgery, when Colin's point was supported and not believed to have been from a forged document.

Let's take it out.

on the yellowcake discussion page, User:RonCram says:

"Colin Powell’s speech does not mention the yellowcake documents. I have searched the entire transcript of his speech before the UN for the words “Niger” and “yellowcake” and neither appear. In addition, the US Report on PreWar Intelligence (page 68) also says Powell did not use the claim in his speech."

69.220.35.202 04:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Rabbi-m

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell referred to the documents directly in his presentation to the U.N. Security Council outlining the Bush administration's case against Iraq. [3] Añoranza 05:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a source, reverting in spite of this is vandalism. Añoranza 06:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe more discussion is needed. If indeed User:RonCram is correct then I see no reason to reinstate it, you're pushing your POV again. ← ΣcoPhreek _contribs^talk→ 08:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

two copies of a full transcript of Powell's remarks: a copy on CNN's own website The US Govt website

Neither contain a reference to Niger or yellowcake. The only references to uranium are about enriching it, not acquiring it.

Thus, it seems the CNN story referenced above is wrong.

Rabbi-m

he simply says that Iraq had been trying to acquire uranium: ironically it's Powell's statement that is unsourced. Doesn't really change the fact that Powell lied like a dog throughout the entire speech (and knew he was lying) but the stronger statement about yellowcake is incorrect.

Ancestry

Burke's Peerage, which remains unimpeachable, did not speak of Powell's ancestry; that was the considerably more dodgy Harold Brooks-Baker, who was not a professional genealogist and generally did not reveal his research, while trading on the Burke's name. The claim is most likely bogus. See also Most royal candidate theory. --Dhartung | Talk 09:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

non-Caucasian ?

I am not sure he is the highest ranking "non-caucasian" in U.S. History, what about Charles Curtis?

66.72.215.225 21:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)jme

• I think this is based on the United States order of precedence, in which case it is correct. Harro5 11:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Charles Curtis was a Vice President, which is second in the order of precedence. He seems to have been half Native American, making him the highest ranking non-Caucasian official in U.S. history. -- Mattworld (talk to me) 05:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe "non-caucasian" should be removed as he evidently is at least half white (probably more). There is no damn way he is pure black; therefore, calling him "non-Caucasian" is incorrect. Animalcroc 18:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)animalcroc

colin powell is as "pure" black as pretty much any average black american. both parents are black. they (the parents) of course have some mixed ancestry somewhere in their line. i doubt anyone in the western hemisphere is "pure" anything. not every black american is dark skinned.Scott Free 15:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

why are there no sources anywhere in this article?

i want to reference individual parts that are innaccurate, but the whole dang thing has no references, no sources, nothing!

who wants to do the deleting?

I attached an appropriate template to the article. For future reference, you can add such a warning to the top of an article by placing the text {{references}} above the article's content. A parallel templates to warn the reader of an alleged lack of neutrality is {{npov}}. Daniel Bush 12:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe "non-caucasian" should be removed as he evidently is at least half white (probably more). There is no damn way he is pure black; therefore, calling him "non-Caucasian" is incorrect.

Just shows really how irrelavent the term black is now. To someone that's of dark skin its more representative as white is to pale skinned people, but for all us brownies in between the term black is irrelavent and means nothing. The two groups get to be described by skin colour, so then why aren't people in between? Even though i dislike the term african-american, i feel it is more accurate than the term black, which many of us find to be derogatory simply for the fact that everyone with a bit of brown colour is labelled it. Invertedzero —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.78.171 (talk) 12:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

White appearance

How come he looks white in some photos on the page? Is it something to do with the camera flash? Scott Gall 07:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Some black people become pale when they become old. I think the melanin becomes weak with age or something like that. Jigen III 10:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

In General Powell's case, he was always relatively (for a black man) pale skinned, even as a younger man. User:Spock 156.34.75.124 23:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Medals and ribbons

Is it really possible that he was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal in the Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard? Obviously he's able to be awarded the Army version, but I thought the others were restricted to personnel from their services. Is someone playing funny buggers?? -- Lima Golf 10:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It's possible, but it's obvious from the photograph of him on Wikipedia and every other photo of him along with all available online written sources that he did not have the Navy or Coast Guard DSM's. Likewise, there is no soruce for the claim that he was awarded the "V" device for his bornze star. As such, I have removed those awards from the list. I would ask that anyone wishing to make claims to the contrary first provide a source (either written or photographic) prior to undoing the edit as no source (save for the picture of him in uniform) has yet been provided. (Sonlee 19:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

According to this: http://www.jcs.mil/cjs/history_files/bios/powell_bio.pdf He did not recieve a V device for his Bronze star and did recieve the Coast Guard, Navy and Air Force Distinguished Service Medals. Thus I removed the V device from his Bronze Star and will add the medal from other serives.

References cleanup

I have converted all embedded HTML links to footnotes, using the Wikipedia:Citation templates. I've also cleaned up some redundant citations and external links, and corrected some punctuation. This article is still hideously under-referenced, though. Please add good references if you can. Thanks! --Plek 21:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

you guysa are some bitchesx for doing this dumb shit you fucking bitch.

My-Lai quote is incorrect

The proper quote references 'Americal' forces rather than 'American' forces. Look it up, people. 24.163.91.2 21:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Combat

was he ever in combat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.26.103.71 (talk) 05:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC). Yes. In Vietnam

Affiliation/US Army

This is NOT a question about this article... but is it normal practice in the USA to state "United States Army" for generals? Commonwealth generals don't put "XYZ Regiment"/"Royal Air Force"/etc once they get to 1-star (2-star?) rank (ranks under them, however, do). Just curious. 202.89.155.157 06:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Second Highest Ranking Non-Caucasian

Wasn't he the 2nd highest non-white in U.S. History - from everything from the Order of Precedence to the Line of Succession to actual power, the Sec. o. Ste. is techincally the 5th highest ranking member of the U.S. Gov - he/she has more power than any other cabinet member, but are still bellow the Pres. pro tempore, who is bellow House Speaker, who is below (in title not power) the V.P., who is below the presdident. Chief Justice is techinaclly between Speaker and pro tempore, but there have only been black associate justices. He shld have been the 2nd highest black in history at inaugaration time.

Requested improvement in article

Colin Powell pronounces his first name CO-LAND, unlike the common pronounciation in England (COWL-LAND, sort of), where the name is more popular. I don't know how to put in the article, but I think it would help, particularly near the beginning. Fineday 03:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

He is NOT African American

He is JAMAICAN American. Stop using "African American" when you really mean black. It's inaccurate, and black is not a bad word. James Callahan (talk) 16:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

African American is inaccurate, black is inaccurate... surely we need a new term... i never understand why people of mixed complextion are never called brown, it would be more accurate than black. We also don't hear of whites being constantly refered to as european american. Someone that's mixed is usually called african-american... even if their family don't come from africa... shouldn't they be called afro-euro-american? I think its really silly. In Brazil they've managed to some up for different terms for the 'brown' population that have no directly mixed heritage, so why can't they in America?

If you would describe white Americans as being of European descent Powell must be of African descent as black Jamaicans were originally slaves from Africa. Of course Powell is clearly also of European descent. - JL

Colin is a man with great responsibity to his country, and in his role as a high ranking military officer. Though his hard work and dedication Powell achieved the rank of a four star general, the second highest rank achieved by Generals. As an african american, he has overcome many obstacles to become one of America's greatest and most successful military leaders.

heay what is u[ my people is what is what he said —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hundleyblake45 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)