Talk:Hindi cinema

Archives: 01, 02, 03.

Redirect

Hi. I suggest redirecting Bollywood to the Hindi film industry page. Bollywood is not the official name for the Hindi film industry and many people oppose this name. It was originally used as a derogatory term toward the industry and caught on. Many people still use it but that does not make it the official name of the industry. Since the industry has no official name it should be called by a proper classification, that being 'Hindi film industry'. Also, Hollywood is a redirect for 'Cinema of the United States'. So there should not be an issue with making Bollywood a redirect as well. Nsrav (talk) 03:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)Nsrav

"Bollywood" doesn't refer to the entire Hindi film industry, just the highly commercial part. Dieresis (talk) 13:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Read the first line of the article and it specifically says that Bollywood is the Hindi lang. film industry of India. It doesn't say anything about being commercial or non commercial. If no one has any valid objections to this I'm going to go ahead with the redirect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.233.105 (talk) 00:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

No redirects. Yeh, it doesn't say anything about being commercial or non commercial, but it is the common name for the Hindi film industry and everybody would agree on that. There are books named after this name, it has entries in major dictionaries, so there is no need to redirect. Shahid • ^Talk2me 00:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

So tell me why Hollywood has a redirect. Nsrav (talk) 20:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav

Because Hollywood is a state in the first place, and the redirect is to the state, and the Cinema of USA is named so because it is mainly settled in there, and we can't use one redirect to two different articles. On the other hand, Bollywood is not a physical place, but a common name. It is very relevant, famous and used by everybody. It is known like this internationally, because foreigners do not even know what Hindi cinema is, they know what Bollywood is, and here there is a clear explanation. Apart from that, all the other Wikis use this very common name, dictionaries cite this name with clear explanations, there are books named after this name. It is not a rare nick, but a well and internationally recognised term. Many criticised this name for being an over the top inspiration from Hollywood but the article also mentions that in the lead. It actually has come a long way, and is almost official today, if not completely official (as I said - books, dictionaries). Also see google results for "Hindi cinema" - 443,000; "Bollywood" - 56,200,000. The results are clear. And if dictionaries and reliable encyclopedias cite it as Bollywood, I can't see why Wikipedia cannot. My best regards, Shahid • ^Talk2me 22:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether or not Hollywood is a state, we wouldn't be using one redirect for two articles because they could have used a disambiguation like most other terms which refer to more than one thing. Meaning a page that says Hollywood can refer to either: the Hollywood city, the Hollywood movie industry, etc. But they didn't. Hollywood is also a 'very relevant, famous, and used by everybody.' Hollywood is known internationally, NO ONE not even foreigners says 'cinema of the US' everyone says Hollywood. Hollywood is not a rare nick but a 'well and internationally recognised term used in dictionaries BOOKS are written using that term etc. The only reason we're talking about Hollywood so much is to show you that all your excuses for having the Hindi movie industry be listed under Bollywood do not apply because if they did, they would have to apply for Hollywood too. Nsrav (talk) 18:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav

What? You must be kidding! Hollywood is not the common name for Cinema of the US. It is just the center of the American film industry. American films are mostly shot there, so they are called like this - Hollywood films, because most of the studios, film locations, film stars are settled there. One more example, a Hollywood star - a celebrity who lives in Hollywood or works in Hollywood films -- the physical place. I think you misinterpret something here.

I repeat, Hollywood is the center of the American film industry in Los Angeles, not a formal/informal name.

On the other hand, Bollywood is not a physical place, but a common name, and almost formal and official (I repeat, internationally recognised), regardless of what is happening on the Hollywood article.

The fact that we use the term Bollywood here, has nothing to do with the Hollywood article, it is their problem. And comparisons won't help -- we are not trying to copy the article. Also see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.

Every Wikipedia article in all possible languages, all film and actor articles link to this very name - Bollywood! There is no way to move this article. And btw, nobody would never agree to that, Ieven if I did. Regards, Shahid • ^Talk2me 18:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Hollywood is not the common name for Cinema of the US? Reread what you just wrote. Also, reread what you said about 'almost formal and official' key word ALMOST. It is not the formal and official name. The other stuff exists is talking about DELETION and it is saying that just because x is wrongly put, doesn't mean y should be wrongly put as well - aknowledging the fact that BOTH are wrongly put it is a different situation. so are you aknowledging the fact that the Hollywood redirect is wrongly put?? you can't have a double standard and say its okay for one thing and not okay for another when they're subjectivley the same issue and even OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesnt support that. And what do you mean by there is no way to move this article? Familiarize yourself with a redirect and you'll see that even the links won't be affected. And I know that many people would search the term Bollywood, but redirecting is not renaming. So redirecting would NOT make it difficult for them to find this article because it will show up in searches for 'Bollywood' only thing is, it REDIRECTS them to this page. So redirecting the page will not stop it from showing up when people type in 'Bollywood'. I really don't see what the problem with redirecting it would be, I'm not proposing a reNAME, just reDIRECT. Unless you are offended by 'Hindi film industry' you shouldn't have any problem with the redirect because your favorite name 'Bollywood' is still going to work! it will not be erased or disqualified or unrecognized, everything will be the same, only thing is when the user actually looks at the page, the title will change from Bollywood to Hindi film industry. But everything else works the same, they can still type in Bollywood to get the article! they arent going to be forced to type Hindi film industry, searches will still work with Bollywood, everything will be the same except when reading the page the top will say Hindi film industry. So i really dont see what the problem is - once again it is not a reNAME, it is just redirecting the Bollywood page to the Hindi film industry page, not deleting bollywood and replacing it. The only logical problem one might have with this is that since so many people call it Bollywood, they won't be able to find the page. But that isn't going to be a problem as I just explained so I dont know what other problem there is. Please look at WP:SELFIDENTIFYING You need to respect what the subject calls ITSELF, what it wants to be called. and most of the industry calls itself the hindi film industry and NOT bollywood.

"I would rather call it the Hindi film industry", J.Abraham [1]

"I think the name Bollywood changed from being "Bollywood" to just Indian cinema or something like that [...] Naming is not my job, but it's called Indian cinema.", M.Ratnam

"Moderator: I wanted to talk about Bollywood...

Abhishek Bachchan: [correcting [the moderator]] The Hindi film industry." [2]

"there is nothing called Bollywood. There's the Hindi film industry or the Indian film industry.... And let me assure you, we don't have any hill with a sign saying Bollywood. No property would ever want to sell land to advertise it. [....] It's like calling New York, Bombay....", R.O.Mehra [3]

"the Hindi Film Industry (name usually prefered by scholars to the term Bollywood)" [4]

"A lot of learned people in the Indian FIlm Industry dislike the term “Bollywood""[5]

"the Indian film industry was not happy with the word ‘Bollywood’ and were disgusted at its usage in the media."[6]

"many in the Bombay film industry find the term derogatory"[7]

want more? the industry itself does not use this term for self-identification and im sorry but i cannot paste you quotes of every single person in the industry but those are some of them. therefore even though it is the most common name, the self-identification criteria carries more weight

"A city, country or people, by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.", Wikipedia So even though you think it SHOULD be Bollywood because so many people call it that, that is not what it IS. "Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. ", Wikipedia

please see WP:SELFIDENTIFYING

Nsrav (talk) 08:15, 21 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav

I have to end up this discussion here, because it goes nowhere. Bollywood is not MY favourite name, but the common name, and I'm sorry to say that I don't really care what is going on the Hollywood area on Wikipedia. All the languages of other Wikis, books, dictionaries etc refer to it by "Bollywood", and Hindi film industry is not the official name - it can be Hindi cinema, Hindi film, Hindi film industry etc., but the common name is -- Bollywood. That's how it has been known for over five years on the Wiki, and if the majority view is that this article has to be named Bollywood (as I pointed out - google, and Wikipedia itself), I can't see a reson to redirect it. Please don't come up with the Hollywood case. And I stand on my earliest statement and stuck by it. Hollywood is a more of a state rather than a common name and Bollywood is a common name by all means.

Oh yeh, and giving me 7 sources, is nothing to backup your claim that "most of the industry calls itself the hindi film industry and NOT bollywood." because the fact is that most of the industry calls itself Bollywood, not Hinfi film industry, and I don't have to even give sources for that. It's plain as day. Shahid • ^Talk2me 12:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay so 7 sources isn't enough to validate the claim that most of the industry calls itself by that name, and you expect me to give you a source for every person in the industry. yet you can claim the industry calls itslelf bollywood without listing a single source. 'plain as day'? more like, an assumption made by yourself. I think my point about naming the page considering what the group calls itself remains valid because you have no backing to say that the industry calls itself bollywood. Nsrav (talk) 02:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)Nsrav

Bollywood Finance

Hi, I have made some some changes to the finance section. There have been very minor deletions such as "Bollywood budgets are modest by Hollywood standards" this is not necessary or significant. I have instead given figures for the budgets with the celing of $10 million, the highest so far and future project budgets(Mahabhatata)

I have also mentioned something on the hiring of international technicians and given examples of Krrish and Love Story 2050, as they are particularly notesworthy in hiring reputable international talent.

I intend to write something on Hollywood and Bollywood co-productions later, as that is another area of finance appearing for Bollywood today.

Springcleaning

No major changes. We've been patrolling for major vandalism, but small things slip past our guard. Possibly the only contentious edit will be my addition of material re the language of Bollywood films. I stressed that dialogues tend to be written so as to be comprehensible to the largest possible audience, and added a comment from Suketu Mehta re initial composition in English. I need to buy my own copy of that book, and get a page number for that cite. Zora 23:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. Bharatveer edited roughly (mangling the sentence) and removed all mention of Hindustani and Pakistan. I have rewritten, trying to split the difference. Zora 08:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

User Zora, Pls understand that bollywood films are banned in Pakistan (after 1965).-Bharatveer 08:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The ban in Pakistan is totally irrelevant. People watch Bollywood films in Pakistan and all over the world in spite of local laws. You have no business removing factual references to Pakistan. Dieresis 06:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I restored the references to Hindustani and Pakistan. The Hindi movie industry served ALL of what is now North India and Pakistan before the Partition, it is still extremely popular in Pakistan, despite bans, it is to a great extent run by Punjabi refugees from the Partition, and the language used, per all the references I have, is directed at the same swathe of territory served before the Partition. That's to a great extent a commercial decision, to get the largest possible audience. I also strongly object to labeling Devanagari and Nastaliq scripts as Hindi and Urdu. The underlying language is the same, only the script is different. I gather that participants in a number of North Indian/Pakistani web fora are using Roman characters to write Hindustani, so that they can communicate unimpeded by script differences. This would be impossible if the underlying language weren't basically the same (skewing of formal vocabulary aside). I strongly object to the consensus of academic, scientific linguistics being jettisoned in favor of accentuating communal hatreds and political differences.

We had a sentence in there at one point saying that the whole language question was hotly contested and that readers should look at the Hindi, Urdu, and Hindustani articles to get an idea of the issues. I think that sentence was removed in one of the ethnic cleansing drives to which this article has been subjected, and I think it would help to restore it. We can't discuss the language question here, but we can point readers to the places where it is discussed. Zora 03:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the logic in the sentence that dialogues are written for audience in Pakistan , when the no sale of bollywood movies can be distributed legally?-Bharatveer 05:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, I apologize for the revert. I didn't your the edit summary or your username. I just saw the difference. However, in this situation, I do support Zora's version. Please note that Urdu is not only spoken by 10.7 million persons in Pakistan, but by 48.1 million persons in India. Also, even though they may be banned in Pakistan, Bollywood movies are still viewed by those in the state (please see BBC:Bollywood movies). Consequently, the text you removed in the article should be kept. I hope this helps. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 06:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Leave out the popularity of urdu in this discussion .The issue in discussion is not about that .The issue is about a sentence which "claims" that dialogues in bollywood films are written for "AUDIENCE IN PAKISTAN". Now when No bollywood producer can sell his film in pakistan legally, then how can one write dialogue for "audience in pakistan.Are bollywood producers that naive??-Bharatveer 06:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, do you think that there is not one person in the entire world who have watched a Bollywood film, understand it comfortably (so they have a good understanding of Hindi/Urdu) but only know how to write this language in the Arabic script? If you do think this, then I think you're wrong and if you don't, then the Arabic script is for these people. Gizza^{Chat ©} 06:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The poll is over, guys

You can't revive a year and half old poll. Nor is the input from editors who don't work on film-related articles particularly helpful. Zora 09:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Woah, I didn't realise that. Well the poll may be dead but the problem is ongoing as seen here. Gizza^{Chat ©} 06:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

New genres

This is a really good article. I saw interviews on Film 2006 tonight with Bollywood producers etc, making the point that over the next decade they will produce in more varied genres - presumably spy thrillers, horror and so on. Anyone know more about this? Thanks.--Shtove 00:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Portmanteau category

Why did Centrx remove this? It is a valid category regrouping many articles. If you remove the one in this article, why not remove them on all the others? Sfacets 07:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason is explained fairly clearly in the edit summary. "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so articles are categorized by their subject, not by the etymology or type of word that represents the subject." We do not have Category:Nouns or Category:French derivations, Wiktionary does. We do not have Category:Numerals, we have Category:Numbers. The Portmanteau category is the only category like this, and yes, it should be removed from all articles. Is there any reason why it should not? —Centrx→talk • 07:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the case, you should take it up on the Category talk page rather than here. Excluding a category from one article and not the rest seems dubious, and undermines the category maintenance. Besides that, nowhere in wiki policy is it written that a category cannot regroup grammatical terms. Sfacets 07:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I did bring it up there, and asked you to comment there. For related policy, see Wikipedia:Categorization and Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. —Centrx→talk • 07:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you point out your reply there? I cannot see it. Sfacets 22:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It's right there, and there is no reply, it's a new section that has received no reply. —Centrx→talk • 22:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Academic article

Someone added an academic article to See Also, where it didn't belong. I thought at first that this was self-promotion, but after checking out the conference at which it was presented, I discovered that BASAS was a reputable organization and that the paper had in fact won special mention on the association web page. So I set up a new selection for the paper. Links to other academic papers would be good. I found a paper on Roja, for the same year -- is that considered Tamil cinema only, or is it a Bollywood film also? Zora 07:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Upperstall not linkspam

This article is a magnet for linkspam, and various editors keep removing it. That is a nasty but necessary chore and I very much appreciate everyone who does it. However -- fairly often, editors also remove Upperstall. That is not a fansite, it's non-commercial, and it's good, academic-quality information. I think editors are removing it just because they haven't looked at it.

I'm open for argument on the subject -- if after looking at the site, other editors want to remove it and there's a consensus that we should, I'll bow to the consensus. Zora 01:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I have added a new link which i think it VERY INFORMATIVE and USEFUL, Bollywoodistan.com

What do you think? user:Unknown Master

Bollywoodistan is commercial. We don't do links to ecards, jobsites, etc. I removed the link.

If you're here to help out, there are lots of movies that don't have articles yet. Zora 08:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

C'mon www.bollywoodistan is a DIRECTORY which links to everything bollywood. It is very useful Zora!

Google links to everything Bollywood. We don't need commercial directories. We won't host your advertising. Zora 22:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I looked at Bollywoodistan.com and Google. Google doens't have half of the links that this website does. PLus google also displays ads in thier directory and there seems to be no porblem. You both gota a point! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.129.16.122 (talk) 22:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Film kisses are no longer banned.

This is the only reference in the entire article that refers to the Bollywood moral film codes. Please expand. SchmuckyTheCat 20:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well Done!

This is a nice introductory article. It seems a little bit lightly sourced, but what would I know. I knew nothing about Bollywood except it was Indian film before reading this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Powerlad (talk • contribs) 04:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

       Bichhdey abhi to hum, bas kal parso,
       jiyoongi main kaisey, is haal mein barson?
       Maut na aayi, teri yaad kyon aayi,
       Haaye, lambi judaayi!

       Devanāgarī: "बिछड़े अभी तो हम, बस कल परसों,"
       "जियूँगी मैं कैसे, इस हाल में बरसों?"
       "मौत न आई, तेरी याद कयों आई?"
       "हाय, लंबी जुदाई!"

(This is not Nasta'liq, Nasta'liq is a very specific font, ie Times New Roman, and this is not that font. I changed it to just "urdu" in the main article, if there is a better word to describe things written in the urdu alphabet please change it to that. ***see wikipedia entry for Nasta'liq***

       Nasta'liq: بچھڑے ابھی تو ہم، بس کل پرسوں
       جیوں گی میں کیسے، اس حال میں برسوں؟
       موت نہ آئی، تیری یاد کیوں آئی؟
       !ہاۓ، لمبی جدائی

       Translation: We have been separated just a day or two,
       How am I going to go on this way for years?
       Death doesn't come; why, instead, do these memories of you?
       Oh; this long separation!

Semantics

Does anyone else find this wording confusing? "Over 90% of the Pakistanni population watch Bollywood films alone," Do they really watch them alone, as in 'one ticket, please'? Or do they watch only Bollywood films? What is this supposed to mean? And where does this statistic come from? Should somebody add one of those 'citation needed' stickers?

Devanagari and Nastaliq spellings of the word "Bollywood"

I think writing the Devanagari and Nasta`liq spellings of "Bollywood" is just not relevant. This word is made of two English words so what do these other scripts have to do with it? And Indians themselves almost don't use it. It makes no sense to me. BernardM 09:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Since nobody opposed my point of view, I removed them. BernardM 09:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your inquiry, BernardM. Your view has merit, although facts mentioned therin are incorrect. Indians do use the Devanagari and Nastaliq spellings. For example see here (Devanagari) and here (Nastaliq). It makes prefectly good sense to use the Devanagari and Nasta`liq scripts next to the English spelling when the film industry is in the Hindi/Urdu language. The term Bollywood is also uttered by Hindi/Urdu speakers more so than English ones. This situation is like Hindi/Urdu adopting words like doctor so much so that they also become Hindi/Urdu words. In addition, other film industries such as Kollywood and Lollywood also retain native scripts. I hope this helps. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 00:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

With "almost don't use it" I was referring to the word itself, not the Devanagari and Nastaliq spellings. By the way the examples you showed (BBC) aren't Indian but English. Using Indian scripts usually brings info to articles because of how totally unreliable are transcriptions, but since the word Bollywood is an English word, it's not the case here. Anyway these spellings aren't wrong, just useless so I won't insist. BernardM 16:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps they are useless to you. Others will find them helpful. Dieresis (talk) 12:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense claims:Bollywood in the United States

The whole entire section of how popular Bollywood is supposed is around the world is full of nonsense. Nobody in America except for South Asians or maybe Middle Easterners like Bollywood movies. In America, actors in musicals are expected to act, dance, AND sing. I suspect Bollywood is not at all popular in any other country where acting requires more than just physical appeal and movies are expected to be more sophisticated.

"Bollywood" is not "popular" in America. "Popular" would infer at least a majority of the people know something about it, let alone watch it. The claims of popularity in this article are biased and far-fetched. It would be good if there was some legitimacy on that part. What do you others think? While I do not deny it is impressive, how is the 100 million that is reportedly brought in yearly by Indian films even close to the many billions Hollywood brings in? Seriously, this article is inflated. rotinajeht —Preceding comment was added at 18:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, you have references so if YOU personally don't like Bollywood, you should keep your opinions to yourself. Sorry to disappoint you, but there are refs. Secondly, you say "Nobody in America except for South Asians or maybe Middle Easterners like Bollywood movies." - Even if that's right, what's the problem? Nobody said that it's popular amongst local Americans, but it's popular in Amercia. There is no matter who the audience is and who watches it. The fact is that it's popular there. And remember that South Asians constitute a HUGE population of the US. And BTW, just for the record, many many westerners and Americans watch Bollywood films and it is hugely popular among them too. Shahid • ^Talk2me 19:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

So basically if it has been shown once in any country, it is considered popular? Given the fact that the majority of Americans do not know what Bollywood is, it is more unpopular than popular. Honestly, this article is all about glorifying India! Look at the article on the cinema of the United States and you will find facts and not rhetoric on implying it is the "best". While I understand the majority of people that edit this page is of Indian descent, it is apparent your pride is writing this article. rotinajeht

Why majority? I see you hate India from what I read here, but it doesn't mean that the majority of Americans don't know about it. you have references. Shahid • ^Talk2me 09:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I live in the US, and the only people I know who even know about Bollywood are Indian people. Do a poll here and maybe some people will know about it given the National Geographic article on it published some years back, but hardly anyone will know about it. How is it popular? 100 million, total? If a Western movie here doesn't rake that much in, it is considered a failure! And have you ever heard of neutrality on Wikipedia? Sure,I don't care for Bollywood, and obviously you are smitten with it, however,it must be written from a neutral point of view! Like the US cinema or any other cinema page is. user:rotinajeht —Preceding comment was added at 18:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This is my last reply to you. This discussion goes nowhere. You have references for every such claim. There is not matter WHO in the US watches Bollywood films but HOW MANY. And sorry to disappoint you but you're not a reliable source for that. I don't care how many people from the US who watch Bollywood movies you know. You may be someone who lives in a little town and has no connection with the entire country, so how can I know? Why should I rely on your personal claims? And please don't clarify yourself in this matter cause it doesn't matter at all. And a Wikipedia poll is literally nothing when it comes to measure poplarity. There is a HUGE population of Indian Americans in the US, particularly in New York, and it still means nothing because there are many native Amricans who are fans, and many successful Bollywood world tours there, is a perfect proof to that. I live in Australia, and there are MANY non-Indians there. I watch Bollywood films weekly, and half the spectators at the cinema are always non-Indians. So please keep your pwesonal dislikes to yourself. Wikipedia cannot be based on personal opinions. That's why the article (or this particular section) is well referenced. I have references. You have no references, and I don't think you can find a source which says that Bollywood is not popular there. Regards, Shahid • ^Talk2me 18:43, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

HUGE population of Indian Americans? Hmmm! Um it's only 1% of American population according to even Wikipedia where India seems to be omnipresent. I have no choice but to support user:rotinajeht point here. Believe me, I hate you! (talk) 02:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Bollywood is not mainstream.

100 Million = number of dollars Bollywood gets per year in the US. According to http://www.natoonline.org/statisticstickets.htm, the average cost of a movie ticket is $6.55 in the US. $100,000,000/$6.55 = 15.3 million. <--That is the maximum number of people that could have even seen a Bollywood movie in a year, if each person watched only one. There are 300 million people in the United States. Now, given that some people (like you) watch Bollywood weekly, rent movies, buy DVDs and VCDS or get satellite subscriptions, I'm sure the number is much lower. So how is that popular? Mainstream cinema in English in the US consists of many hundreds of billions of dollars while Bollywood is just 100 million.

Less than one percent of the population here could understand what is in those films! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States) 320,000 speak Hindi? Wow! Thats one person that could understand any of those movies for every thousand people here. Hardly mainstream or "pop culture", implying popularity. Therefore, would it not be wise to change the blatant, inflated statement of "Bollywood is popular in North America" to "Though Bollywood is largely unheard of in the United States, it sees some growth" or something like that. Look, I hate to break it to you, but seriously it's not popular. You should come here and ask people, well over the majority don't give a hoot about Bollywood. I live here. user:rotinajeht —Preceding comment was added at 06:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Which part of "there is no matter how many Indians there are in US" you have problems in understanfing??? Bollywood is popular there, and among non-Indians too. See the sources. You're sources don't prove the opposite and they're actually unreliable, sorry to say that. I have sources for these claims. Your personal analysis is literally nothing. I have no time and energy to discuss it any longer. There is no sense. Shahid • ^Talk2me 13:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

You have no basis for your claim while user:rotinajeht is presenting pure facts. You don't say "See the sources" and "I have sources for these claims". You actually provide sources and stats to support your claim. You are here spreading a bad name for India by making exaggerated claims. Think about it. Believe me, I hate you! (talk) 23:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Personal analysis? Let me quote you. "I watch Bollywood films weekly, and half the spectators at the cinema are always non-Indians." Do I smell hypocrisy? Keep your personal opinions to yourself. Now look at the references down below, and tell me what you think. user:rotinajeht

http://www.dailycal.org/sharticle.php?id=13258 That states that Bollywood is only "popular" among the south Asian diaspora. http://www.bollywoodworld.com/whatisbollywood/index.htm This states Bollywood is "slowly getting noticed". Your sources show the same thing: Bollywood is popular among the South Asian diaspora. However, you interpret that and believe it is scholarly to slap the label of "popularity" on the whole United States.

Bend it Like Beckham grossed $32,541,719 in the US(http://the-numbers.com/movies/2003/BECKH.php)

Bride and Prejudice earned $6,601,079 in the US (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/BRDPJ.php)

Now, The Incredible Hulk, which was widely considered a flop, grossed $132,160,047 in the US. (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/Hulk.php). Since all these numbers are based on the same priced tickets, they indicate viewership (eliminating the fact that tickets cost lest $$$ in, lets say, India). These films were produced by Indians and yet they hardly compare to even the worst films here.

Therefore, here is my proposed edit:

Though Bollywood is largely unheard of in the United States, it has seen growth, particularly among the growing Indian Diaspora. [3] Yash Raj Films reported in September 2005 that Bollywood films in the United States earn around $100 million a year.[3] Down the last decade, Bollywood films have been filmed in New York, Los Angeles, Vancouver and Toronto.

^^^That says more than all that pedantic fluff.User:rotinajeht

LOL,,, unheard??? Look I don't know who you are and what you want, but I won't let you to do that. Your above message is yet anotther insignificant analysis (despite using sources, it doesn't matter. It is mainly based on your opinions... LOL) and I can collect a distinguished group who will support me here. To be popular in the US, Bollywood doesn't necessarily have to earn like Hollywood. It's popular in its own way, and the source on the article says that "it is becoming eancresingly popular" and nothing you say can disprove it. As per WP:RS your sources are not reliable, and even if the were, it would do nothing. Nothing of that disproves the claim. Shahid • ^Talk2me 05:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Why should anyone believe you? You obviously do not want debate, seeing as you simply deleted my statement the first time I posted it...

Anyways =], you slap the label of Bollywood as "popular" on the US. That implies that many, many people here watch it, or a large percentage of the population watches it, that it is mainstream, that it has impacted society. I gave you sources (which are not unreliable...I used Wikipedia to tell you the number of people here that could even understand a Bollywood film, which is 0.1% of the population), among other things, and yet you continue to believe they are popular here.

Definitions of popular (first four in google search: "define: popular"):

1. regarded with great favor, approval, or affection especially by the general public; "a popular tourist attraction"; "a popular girl"; "cabbage ...
2. carried on by or for the people (or citizens) at large; "the popular vote"; "popular representation"; "institutions of popular government"
3. democratic: representing or appealing to or adapted for the benefit of the people at large; "democratic art forms"; "a democratic or popular movement"; "popular thought"; "popular science"; "popular fiction"
4. (of music or art) new and of general appeal (especially among young people)

So basically, it implies that the general public knows something about it. Now tell me how Bollywood can be considered popular here, with 0.1% of the population being able to understand it, generating 2% the revenue of Hollywood, etc. Rotinajeht (talk) 05:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Shahid, you reject Rotinajeht's sources as unreliable when your sources are largely Indian which cannot be trusted because of conflict of interest. You have clearly refused to accept perfectly valid sources and arguments. Such behaviour is diruptive, time-wating and unhealthy, and could result in a formal complaint agianst you. Believe me, I hate you! (talk) 10:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear friends, please don't tell me what I have or don't have to do. I didn't remove your message, especially because you vandalised the page before. Bollywood world is unreliable, and please see WP:RS. As for DrParkash, I don't think I need someone like, who has so many warnings and self-blanks, to give me lessons in Wikipedia behaviour.

You say, "why should anyone believe you?" - well exactly, you shouldn't. I have sources. Reliable sources. See the sources and then change the page, unless you want me to take it to ANI. Do you have a reliable source which says that Bollywood is unknown there? Do you have a reliable ref which states that it is not popular there? Do you have a ref that says that Bollywood is popular only among South Asians? Well you don't. But I have a reliable ref which says that it's popular. Thanks and best regards. Shahid • ^Talk2me 15:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it is important to be more specific here, certainly you are wrong in saying that an industry which generates $100 million in the United States isn't in the slightest bit popular but indeed you need to clarify who forms the strength of the market. Howver even in the source given it is important to show that much of the revenue is generated from the major cities and indeed amongst the south asian communities rather than evenly across America. I'm sure there are many white americans in the United States in the cities who have seen Bollywood films but I;d imagine if you did a survey of the gross earnings of the industry in North America you;d find much of it is generated from the larger cities where watching indian movies amongst the south asian diaspora has become a significant part of their culture - the source states that "Amongst south asian populations, in the larger cities, mega stars like AMitabh and SRK are bigger celebrities than Pitt or Cruise. I'm sure though that to generate $100 million there would have to be a significant watching of the films by other ethnicities also -you can't make a generalization either that nobody in America watches them. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^Talk? 16:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Blofeld of SPECTRE, thank you for helping Wikipedia more fact-based by helping remove nonsense claims by ________. Believe me, I hate you! (talk) 02:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Changes to "History" section

I made changes to the History section of the article to reflect the fact that although Bollywood did start shooting movies in colour in the late 1950s (for instance, Mother India, which was released in 1957), the majority of films continued to be shot in black-and-white until the mid-1960s. Although there were quite a few successful colour movies in the early 60s (e.g. Junglee, Taj Mahal, Mere Mehboob) there were also many more B&W films to balance it out (e.g. Sahib Bibi Aur Ghulam, Bandini, Woh Kaun Thi?, etc.). I personally date the transition from majority B&W to majority colour as being around 1965, with quite a few colour films I can think of (Waqt, Guide, Jab Jab Phool Khile, Arzoo just to name a few) being released in this year.

Also, I made changes to the history timeline which describes what was popular, in particular altering the dates. If anyone disagrees with my edits to this or the B&W/colour issue, it's open to discussion below. Gujuguy 16:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

the ban in Pakistan

Quick question from a North American. Is there a reference to the ban or censorship of Bollywood media? The popularity and appeal paragraph assumes prior knowledge of "the ban" which I assume relates to Censorship in Pakistan. Although, that article and a related one about internet censorship do not refer directly to censorship of movies. I would also assume that not just Bollywood, but an entire spectrum of film media might be restricted. Group29 16:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Everybody in Pakistan watches Bollywood films.

Popularity in South America

Don't agree with that. In countries like Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador, Bollywood is quite popular. Pages like Mundo Bollywood, with almost 2.000 visitors per day, are the best example. Bollywood is becoming popular in Spain, but it IS popular in Peru.

The article had some info on Peru removed - a google search shows over 6000 hits for "Bollywood Peru" so it does appear significant. I have therefore included some basic info. Fanx (talk) 21:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Needs Improvement

I added a tag saying that the citations on this page need to be removed. Oceania, Africa, and Plagiarism all make very strong claims about numbers, laws, and popularity, with not support to back them up. I've added a few {{Fact}} tags as well. 17:13, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

There are still no citations for Oceania or Africa, and a single citation in nearly an entire page of information on finances. Is there a reason the "needs citations" tag has been removed? Reyemile 02:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

== sharukhan background

sharukhan is from AFGHANISTAN he belongs to pashton background

Musicals?

The article says: Bollywood films have been misleadingly classified as musicals, because few films are made without at least one song-and-dance number. This classification is something of a misnomer, as a Bollywood film is expected to contain a number of elements, and one of the essentials is catchy music in the form of song-and-dance numbers woven into the script. Indeed, a film's music is often released before the movie itself and helps increase the audience. Song-and-dance numbers are default content for Bollywood films, and defining the films as musicals would not be done by the Indian public. This seems very much a non-sequitur to me. How does the fact that an essential element of a Bollywood film is "catchy music in the form of song-and-dance numbers woven into the script" make it misleading to classify them as musicals? That seems like the definition of a musical to me. As the article on musical film says, "the musical film is a film genre in which several songs sung by the characters are interwoven into the narrative." PubliusFL 22:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Long winded

They frequently employ formulaic ingredients such as star-crossed lovers and angry parents, love triangles, family ties, sacrifice, corrupt politicians, kidnappers, conniving villains, courtesans with hearts of gold, long-lost relatives and siblings separated by fate, dramatic reversals of fortune, and convenient coincidences. ^^this line is confusing, long, and biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.94.221 (talk) 23:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Tags removal

The main problem with this page was the section "Popularity and appeal" which was a full POV, full of admiration, exeptional claims and in need of an urgent clean-up. Therefore, I did the clean-up:) Toned down, removed unreferenced and disputed statements, unencyclopedic and POV claims. I've gone trough the whole page, and chacked it. It looks good (It was previously written by the great User:Zora).

As major clean-up was done, and a lot of improvement was shown down the last 24 hours, I've removed the tags.

If someone feels that tags are still needed, my requests are:

• Please cite here your reasons for tagging it, your explanations for specific tags and above all, examples that would illustrate and prove your claims and reasons for these tags. A discussion is needed as it is considered to be a drastic edit overall.

• I would also like to add that if your examples are not very serious and/or problematic, further improvement can be made at the moment, without tagging it in vain. It is better to work together on specific concerns and get good consequences rather than adding tags which usually do not significantly contribute to the article. So you're welcome to introduce concerns here.

• Apart from that, tags on the top of the page are not helpful (if helpful at all), because they don't provide specific concerns/problems and where they exactly are. Therefore, it's way better to add respective tags (and as I said, they are not helpful) on the top of specific sections which include content that violates the policy in the representative tag.

My best regards, Shahid • ^Talk2me 07:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Songs Library

I want to share a web which has a great library of bollywood songs so I would like to contribute this link in the bollywood songs article the link is http://www.zekty.com/songs/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.133.77.46 (talk) 18:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but this link is merely a spam and cannot be featured on Wikipedia. Thanks, Shahid • ^Talk2me 18:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sentence Flow

I changed one of the last sentences in the intro paragraph to flow a bit better. Hope the editor group doesn't mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.19.42 (talk) 15:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well thank you very much, but the result eventually contradicted your intention. It was not well written, so I reverted. Feel free to make any new changes. Regards, Shahid • ^Talk2me 16:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

3.6 Billion people?

Over the years, Bollywood, whose annual output of over 800 films a year, and an audience of 3.6 billion people has shown progress in its popularity, and has been entering the consciousness of Western audiences and producers.[9]

Really? Half the world watches movies they don't understand? The source for this claim only says 3.6 billion tickets sold, and I'm assuming it means the sum of all tickets sold from every movie made that year. Can someone change this? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.228.136 (talk) 05:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This is bullshit. Bollywood doesn't make 800 films per year and the audience is not 3.6 billion people large. The source is ridiculous. There is a tiny reference, that this is the "national" outcome. Every film industry in India is included. --Thirusivaperur (talk) 01:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I was able to get a reference for your claim. Feel free to correct the whole article, which seems to be messed up. --ComingPresident (talk) 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Terrible Introduction

Instead of saying what Bollywood is not, can we please mention what it is?

Bollywood is often incorrectly used to refer to the whole of Indian cinema; it is only a part of the Indian film industry.

However, unlike Hollywood, Bollywood does not exist as a real physical place.

Though some deplore the name, arguing that it makes the industry look like a poor cousin to Hollywood, it seems likely to persist and now has its own entry in the Oxford English Dictionary. Bollywood is commonly referred to as Hindi cinema, even though Hindustani, understood as the colloquial base common to both Hindi and Urdu, might be more accurate.

The use of poetic Urdu words is fairly common. There has been a growing presence of Indian English in dialogue and songs as well. It is not uncommon to see films that feature dialogue with English words and phrases, even whole sentences. There is a growing number of films made entirely in English.

How is this an introduction to what Bollywood is?

• There is no mention of the types of films
• No mention of the songs and dance
• No mention of History
• No mention of who sees it

Nikkul (talk) 18:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Plagarism Section

Since plagarism is a big thing in bollywood, there should at least be a section that links it to the Bollywood Plagarism article. I put it in yestarday, but someone deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.229.176 (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

It's back - the text you added was actually originally written by me - so I further added my entire text which remained on the plagiarism page. It was reverted by someone back in time. Shahid • ^Talk2me 20:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

move Bollywood to Hindi Film Industry

In the introduction, there should be the reference, that the Hindi film industry is also known as Bollywood. This is an encyclopedia, not a marketing company. --Thirusivaperur (talk) 01:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Bollywood is the most recognised name of Hindi cinema, it is almost formal. This was discussed in long threads many times before so I'm not going to elaborate - but just to inform you, the term Bollywood is used in dictionaries, books and --- encyclopedias. Shahid • ^Talk2me 09:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

show me the discussion please. I'm not able to find it. --Thirusivaperur (talk) 17:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Many discussions - too much. I said, "This was discussed in long threads many times before" - not specifically/only here but in different boards related to India, talk pages etc. And as I said, it does not even matter. Bollywood is a common name for the Hindi film industry - it is not a fansite/magazine nick. It is internationally recognised, it is used in dictionaries, books and encyclopedias, so I can't see why Wikipedia shouldn't do that. Foreigners do not even know what Hindi cinema is, they know what Bollywood is, and here there is a clear explanation. Also make a Google search - it will make things much clearer to you. Shahid • ^Talk2me 17:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Largest film producer?

I know we have been through this before but since the sentence has reappeared in the article and if I'm correct, since an edit war is in place on this issue, let me reiterate. Bollywood in the sense of Hindi film industry is NOT the largest film producers in the world. If you are talking about whole of Indian cinema industries included, then this is not the correct article for the claim. The reference given wrongly calls whole Indian film industry as Bollywood, so we shouldn't use that reference. What amazes me is, List of Bollywood movies released in 2007 has only about 100 names. So where are all the remaining 800 movies if Bollywood indeed produces 1000 movies per year? Not logical, is it? Gnanapiti (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I think, and agreed with what you have said (I was not the one to add that back and did not know it was added back). The fact is - Bollywood is one of the largest film producers, BUT nowhere the largest and it does not produce 1000 films a year. So it needs to be rewritten - in the way you did that a few months back, Gnanapiti. Shahid • ^Talk2me 20:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference given to that claim says that Bollywood produces 1000 movies per year, which with little common sense, out-rightly disqualifies that reference to be used in this article. And I believe "largest" is very subjective and we need to compare number of movies released in all the languages in the world. If Bollywood's number proves to be "one of the largest" then I'll be very happy since it applies to almost all movie industries in India. Gnanapiti (talk) 20:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the article you have cited here from Wikipedia is not a good example, because it only mentions the famous big films, there are many lesser-known low-budget and independent films. Also good to note that the number of films has been reduced, and we are talking about the average number of films per year over the decades. Don't forget also that "one of the largest" does not necessarily apply to films made per year, but can also represent the entire number of films ever done.

Except that, there is no need to make comparisons. It will be our own POV. Many sources can show that Bollywood in particular is one of the largest film producers. The fact that businessweek may have given a mistaken view does not affect the fact that Hindi cinema is big enough on its own. Shahid • ^Talk2me 21:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It would also be good to note that all I'm asking for - references for the above claims. Gnanapiti (talk) 21:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well done, it's exactly what I said, "Many sources can show that Bollywood in particular is one of the largest film producers. The fact that businessweek may have given a mistaken view does not affect the fact that Hindi cinema is big enough on its own." Shahid • ^Talk2me 21:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, many sources - where? Not on the table at least as of now. Gnanapiti (talk) 21:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Not now, later. Shahid • ^Talk2me 21:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It's been long and any source hasn't been produced supporting the claim. I'm removing the sentence from the article. Gnanapiti (talk) 23:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Gnanapiti, "any source hasn't been produced"? You removed a sentence supported by three new reputable book sources, and claim that "any source hasn't been produced"? So please read the sentence again. It was changed - please see the wording and the newly added sources - many book sources support the claim that it is the biggest in India (it is a fact, you can't deny that), and one of the biggest in the world - and there is no confusion here: I had gone through the sources delicately - and they clearly mention the Indian Hindi film industry of Mumbai. And the writers of the books are very aware of the general confusion surrounding the issue. Now, the current status of Bollywood has nothing to do with its general achievements. And your own view and calculation do not count here. It's not our business how Bollywood's enormity is counted by these sources (number of films, size, actors, money, budget etc), the matter is that it is one of the largest. And as I said, "Many sources can show that Bollywood in particular is one of the largest film producers. The fact that businessweek may have given a mistaken view does not affect the fact that Hindi cinema is big enough on its own." - the sources are there. Shahid • ^Talk2me 17:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)