Talk:Manchester

Archives

Archives

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1. Box1 (including long-running debate on "second city" status)
2. Box2 24 September 2005 - 27 October 2005
3. Box3 28 October 2005 - 28 February 2007
4. Box4 4 March 2007 - 31 May 2007
5. Box5 June 2007 (Infobox Image and GA discussion)
6. Box6 September 2007 (Vandalism debates and 2nd/3rd city "discussion")
7. Box7 September 2007 - August 2008

From City of Manchester

• Talk:City of Manchester/Archive01 Archive 1 (16-Oct-2005 to 01-Nov-2005):

  Initial discussions

  Focus on article improvement

  Requested move

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Manchester Wiki

I'm not very well established with this whole wikipedia thing so apologies if I'm placing this suggestion in the wrong place. Just thought I'd suggest to the editor of this article the addition of a link at the bottom of the page? A wiki for Manchester has just been launched called Manclopedia. There's not much on there at the moment but I suppose, as with every wiki, all these pojects start out slow; I just thought it was worth a mention. You can find it at www.manclopedia.co.uk [1] (Good name as well.) Wikinekkid (talk) 12:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

For anyone interested, there's a bit of info about the wiki here. Nev1 (talk) 12:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Some of the text used in Salford Quays is familliar. However, there could be some mutual benefit. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  12:49, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, some promising images but no copyright information. If we could get the user to upload some to commons that'd be good. I wouldn't be suprised if Manclopedia copied a lot of our articles. Nev1 (talk) 12:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep. And I think they're entitled to, although it seems a bit of a waste of time to duplicate stuff. They may as well mirror it. :S

Do we think this would be a suitable external link for the Manchester and Greater Manchester articles? Chester links the Chesterwiki. --Jza84 |  Talk  12:56, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not think the Chester wiki and Chester can or should be used as a justification: the matter became acrimonious, and it still crops up from time to time. The decision was that as a special case, it could be added to Chester, but no other articles, and part of the reasoning was intervention by other editors who just seemed to act so as to cool things down by letting it get added to one article. There is still scope for it to be removed from Chester. If the Manchester wiki contains derivative material to wikpedia itself, then surely it is not suitable; if it contains images with no clear copyright permissions, then perhaps that is also a cause for concern. Careful and detailed application of the material found in WP:EL perhaps needs to be done.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) My instinct is to say no, but I wouldn't object too much if a link was added. I asked Ddstrech for his opinion as he was involved in the discussion about the Chester wiki, and he doesn't think the Chester wiki should be used as a precedent. Under the external links we can add to an article, it says "sites that contain neutral and accurate material...[should be included]". The Manchester wiki doesn't satisfy WP:RS, however it could be allowed under "sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources...[may be considered for inclusion]".

IMO at the moment a link shouldn't be included as the wiki is still in its infancy. It may improve to the stage where it is a useful and informative source, but I don't think it is at the moment. Nev1 (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

These are good points. Regarding "neutral and accurate", the wiki is "owned and operated by Hive Magazine" and so, as a stakeholder, is likely to be non-neutral about certain aspects. --Jza84 |  Talk  13:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to get a few more opinions, but it looks like consensus is heading towards not including the link. It will be worth keeping tabs on though and perhaps making efforts to contact them and see if we can get those images on commons. Nev1 (talk) 13:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Picture

I was working in the Beetham Tower today and took a few shots from the top. If anyone would like to use them, let me know and I'll put them in wiki commons.

http://flickr.com/photos/soundman/2764939261/ - there are others in my profile besides that. Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow! I never knew that was your account (I have spotted it before!)! Defo candidates for commons if you ask me! --Jza84 |  Talk  16:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

On a related note, I came across this book on Google, which if you click 'more' on the 'selected pages' section, reveals plenty of drawings of old buildings around Manchester. Given the book is 1839, I would imagine they're all out of copyright. I've already used one on the Bridgewater Canal article. Parrot of Doom (talk) 13:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames

There are no citations to back up 'Capital of the North'. This term should be deleted immediately as the term is used to refer to both Leeds and Manchester. Currently, putting that phrase there sparks dispute, particularly when no-one in the general public refers to any city as the Capital of the North. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.243.1 (talk) 06:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello Yorkshirian, trying to stir up trouble again? You have been here long enough to know not to do that. You have also been here long enough to know how to move pages without screwing it up and making work for others. But you make no effort to keep the encyclopedia 'clean', and you show no consideration for people reading pages that don't relate to your field of editing.

You have been banned by ARBCOM. You are going to have to realise that you and all your contributions are unwanted at Wikipedia. You are persona non grata. You are a pariah, a social outcast. Please find another hobby. Mr Stephen (talk) 06:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 15:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit war

Wikipedia:Three-revert rule - getting out of hand. Why not discuss the issue here, instead of just reverting eachother's edits? Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I am very happy discussing alterations here and I'm happy to go with an agreement. The line that Majabi keeps reverting without any discussion is only two words that Joshii added. Majabi seems very keen to dampen down anything that places Manchester second only to London. Indeed a look at the comments on his contributions pages speaks volumes - "I should work for BCC" is probably the highlight and he's not wrong. He seems to edit the Manchester page simply to talk it down whilst hell bent on proving Birmingham is the second city. My view is that the additional two words that Joshii added did not weaken the article. Moreover I am just very wary that Majabi's intentions are not to make the Manchester article better but simply to weaken it. GRB1972 (talk) 08:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Woah, tiger - easy on the paranoia! Saying that somewhere is the 'second-best place to do business in the UK after London' implies that it is actually third-best in the UK, and that there is another place that is the best in the UK after London. This is not true, because Cushman & Wakefield ranks Manchester as the second-best place in the whole of the UK, not in the whole of the UK excluding London. It's a fairly straightforward grammatical point. And to any interested reader, the place C&W rated top (ie, London) is both in the title of the source and also contained in the source itself. Do you follow now? Matthew (talk) 13:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, I see that the joke behind my 'I could work for BCC ;-)' edit was entirely lost on you! I changed the picture at the top of the Birmingham article to that of Birmingham, Alabama after reading [2] - quite clearly am I 'hell bent'! ;-) Matthew (talk) 13:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Incidently, I couldn't care less! The fact is how it reads now Matthew/ Majabi or whoever else you go by is pretty much how it read after my initial update. I was simply of the opinion that Joshii's contribution did not detract from the article and I remain of that opinion, as I do about your general intention re. Manchester. Then again my point is probably entirely lost on you. GRB1972 (talk) 14:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Metro Population

Hey guys, just writing to find something out and I'm not very good on wikipedia so I thought this was the best way of asking. How is the Metro population of Manchester 4,209,132? Where is the official reference for that please?

--Tubs uk (talk) 15:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Capital of the North

I'll admit I'm not from Manchester, but I am from the North. I am also aware that there isn't a particular capital of the North. Leeds is equally fitting to be the capital of the North, as is Sheffield. In the nicest way possible, Manchester doesn't really have a right to say it is. No city does until it is officially named as such. If you have some sort of official reference for it can you please show me? --Tubs uk (talk) 15:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You've had long enough to respond to me now. These issues will be reported unless someone shows me reliable evidence of the Metro Population and the Capital of the North. --Tubs uk (talk) 22:33, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Threats are not welcome here. The article already includes references. ^┌_Joshii^┐_└^chat_┘ 22:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I hate to say this, but they do have a point about the Metropolitan Area population, as the ONS don't publish any metropolitan area data. Where does that figure come from? Fingerpuppet (talk) 09:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Archive

At 167k and over a year of talking, should much of this page not be archived? Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Give me a few minutes ... Mr Stephen (talk) 12:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

How's that? Mr Stephen (talk) 12:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Well it only took one drag of my finger on the touchpad to get here, rather than 10 :D Parrot of Doom (talk) 09:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:RehovotLogo.jpg

The image Image:RehovotLogo.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --06:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Name Origins and the Founding of Manchester

I see in the discussion archive there was questioning of the Roman history. I would like to know if people think the name Mancenion, the "place of tents", should be included and reference to the building of the first fort by the Brigantes, a century before the Romans. For this I am citing Wheeler in 1836 (Manchester: It's Political, Social and Commercial History, Ancient and Modern), who amongst others cites Hollingworth in 1646 (Mancuniensis; Or, an History of the Towne of Manchester, and what is Most Memorable Concerning it). Here is a modern example of reference to this original name, predating the Roman Mancunium: http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=791 Does anyone know more about this and if it is worth including please? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle (talk • contribs) 02:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the accepted early history and derivation of the name has changed since then. Ordinarily, there's no reason why you shouldn't include the earlier attempts at finding the source of the name. However, this article is already ranked at 545 (out of 2 million plus) in the Hall of Verbosity. Perhaps History of Manchester or Mamucium would be a suitable home? Mr Stephen (talk) 08:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Modern accademic opinion is that "The name Mamucium is thought to derive from the Celtic meaning "breast shaped hill", referring to the sandstone bluff the fort stood on; this later evolved into the name Manchester" (Mills [2003]). The vision of Britain page is a 1887 gazeteer, generally modern works take precedent over older ones as they have access to wider sources. I don't think there's any need to add each derivation historians and antiquarians have thought up, otherwise this article will become too cluttered. I don't think it's necessarily appropriate for the Mamucium (Roman Manchester) article either, if it were to be included it should go in the history of Manchester aticle, however I'm not convinced it's worth including. Nev1 (talk) 15:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Re the etymology, did you see this? Mr Stephen (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

No I hadn't, I'm not happy with that edit to be honest. The fort is on a hill, ableit rather obscured by modern developments. I'll check out my sources and see if I have anything conclusive. Nev1 (talk) 17:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

What concerned me was the way it was phrased, as if the new theory was correct and the previous one was false. And what really set alarm bells ringing was the statement that the is no hill! I've made this edit, toning it down slightly. Ideally, I'd like to remove it (perhaps an etymology section should be added to the history of Manchester article) to prevent proliferation of other theories: IMO we should stick to the mainstream one. Unfortunately I can't find the Gregory book I used when writing the Mamucium article which is more recent than the 2004 theory, and all my other sources are pre-2004. Nev1 (talk) 17:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Good call I think. TBH, I dont think the mamma=mother theory is in the least bit new. My memory is that Ekwall makes reference to it somewhere, probably in his Place-names of Lancashire. Mr Stephen (talk) 18:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The sources I have quoted are for the celtic name, which is different in meaning to the roman name, as it refers to the area and not the later fort. The latin name seems to have been invented by the Romans. There is a lot of early evidence for the name I have quoted as being the first, and nothing has yet been quoted that goes against this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle (talk • contribs) 19:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC) The Romans Building a Fort at Mancenion: The building of the fort, to be found now in Manchester's Castlefield, by British slaves under Agricola - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Town_Hall http://www.yourdictionary.com/mancunian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle (talk • contribs) 19:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC) The Romans Build the Fort at Mancenion (Mamuciam) - AD 80 http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/buildings/town-hall/madox-brown-murals.html Alexander Royle (talk) 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Some of that information is wrong, Manchester2002, wikipedia, and yourdictionary are not considered reliable sources. For information on the fort and first settlement in Manchester, please read the article on Mamucium which is fully referenced. Nev1 (talk) 20:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

From The Ancient Name of Manchester by Henry Bradley (Jul., 1900) in 'The English Historical Review, Vol. 15, No. 59': "A Celtic consonant-stem man- is not only unknown, but unlikely to have existed". Later on: "...this would give us Mammium, or, in Celtic form, Mamtmion, as the original name; a derivative, perhaps, of mamma, 'mother'". Therefore the theory that Manchester has something to do with "mother" is not new. Nev1 (talk) 20:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I think I've been getting myself distracted by the additions by User:Anthony Appleyard, sorry about that. Alexander Royle, you want Mancenion mentioned in the article, which means the "place of tents". Hylton in A History of Manchester (2003) states that the name derives from the Celtic meaning a breast shaped hill on page 6. Unfortunately, the sources you've supplied are either very old or fail WP:RS. You also mentioned "the building of the first fort by the Brigantes, a century before the Romans". I have not come across anything mentioning a "fort", Celtic or otherwise, prior to the 79AD phase in Manchester. Paraphrased from page 181 of Gregory (2007), although there is no evidence of prehistoric settlement, there is evidence of activity in the area. A Neolithic scraper, two Mesolithic flints and a flint flake have been discovered, as well as a shard of late Bronze Age pottery; however these were mostly not found in situ. Do you have any sources refuting this? Nev1 (talk) 20:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

When I return home after the weekend I will quote the sources on the pre-roman settlement and then fort, and about the name "Mancenion". Some online sources say things like "The place where Manchester is situated today was found by the Romans who built a fort from which there were roads in all directions (Blakeley). The Romans called the area Mamucium: meaning breast-shaped hill (Schofield 2003:16, Moss, wwwa). But there are also other spellings to be found: Mancunium, Mameceaster, Mamecestre, Mamcestre (Farrer & Brownbill). When the Romans left the country and the Saxons came along, they altered the name: Mam became Man and ceaster was the result of a twist from the Latin word castrum, meaning fort, army camp (Schofield et al 2003:16, Odenstedt 2000:71, McCrum et al 1992:52)." http://dspace.hh.se/dspace/handle/2082/2131 This is fine if you ignore the Brigantes. As the sources I have cited and other historians, painters etc called the pre Roman area Mancenion, and that is still the name for Manchester in Welsh, I don't see how the latin is a translation. These Celts are from York and Durham a century before the Romans, so not the very ancient times you quote about Nev. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle (talk • contribs) 21:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparently the Anglo Saxon chronicles state that in 921AD King Edward of Mercia recognised the name Mancenion for the city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle (talk • contribs) 21:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The entry for Manchester in the Anlgo Saxon Chronicle is very brief, only a sentence, and refers to the settlement as Mameceaster, not Mancenion (Hylton [2003]). Nev1 (talk) 22:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I know these aren't great extra sources yet, but I'm just trying to prove it is recognised there was a name for Manchester before the Romans showed up, without my books etc to hand. "In the year 79 the town was conquered by Agricola, who changed its British name of Mancenion to MANCUNIUM" http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Gazetteer/M.htm "An early name for Manchester "Mancenion" is believed to have been taken from that of a Celtic settlement on the site, known as "the place of tents". When the Romans invaded England they called their new colony "Britannia". They built major cities like London and Chester. One of the principal Roman roads from Chester northward passed through Manchester, which was called by them "Mancunium". A part of this Roman road is still known as "Watling street". In AD 79 the Romans built a fort in Manchester..." http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:PD3g_Nvv_NgJ:www.ekg.gp.bw.schule.de/projekte/city_gb/manchester.htm+Mancenion&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=uk —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle (talk • contribs) 21:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I think the entry in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle refers to Mameceaster. There's no mad rush, you know, we'll all still be here in a few days :) Mr Stephen (talk) 22:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah joy, your ref gives "MANCHESTER, (N. lat. 53º 25" W. long. 2º 10".) the second town in the kingdom ..." but let's not go there tonight. Mr Stephen (talk) 22:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

We can save that can of worms for another day. I don't remember where but I thought WP:GM had decided genuki does not fit WP:RS? Nev1 (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

In Britain, prehistory is anything before the Roman invasion, so when there is no evidence of prehistoric settlement, that means 100BC as well as the Bronze Age. There are certain inconsistencies, according to Gregory's reports on the excavations around the Roman fort (2007), there is no evidence of a settlement before the Romans arrived, and the Romans are generally regarded as having founded the first Manchester (Hylton [2003], Gregory [2007], Nevell [2008]) so there was no "town" for the Romans to conquer. If a reliable source could be found saying the Celts called the area Mancenion before the Roman arrived that'd be great, but it's unlikely as there is very little documentary evidence and it's not even certain if the area was controlled by a sub-tribe of the Brigantines or the Brigantines themselves. Nev1 (talk) 22:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't expect to find evidence of the Brigands in the Roman fort. "MANCHESTER, ancient British name Mancenion, or Manceinion. This metropolis of the north can boast of the most remote antiquity. Its name would indicate a Celtic origin, for " man " is undoubtedly the W. man, a place ; but the meaning of the latter part of the name has given rise to some controversy. Dr. Whitaker says, after Baxter, that the word means " the place of tents*," but " cenion " in Welsh means " skins," and the secondary meaning of " tents " is purely a conjecture. In Spurrell's W. Dictionary the Celtic name is written Manceinion, and " ceinion " is the W. word for "ornaments" or "delicacies." It is scarcely possible to determine more than that the name is Celtic. In this instance, as in many others, the Saxon conquerors retained * Hist, of Manchester, vol. i. p. 5." http://www.archive.org/stream/transact185500philuoft/transact185500philuoft_djvu.txt You are ofc right about the ASC, sorry about that "þe he þær sæt gefaran Mameceaster on Norþhymbrum" "Brigantes who called it Mancenion" http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/S_MANCHESTER.HTM "the city appeared on the place of the former Celt settlement Mancenion" http://www.articlealley.com/article_50207_29.html "In 79 AD the Roman legions arrived in Mancenion, a place of tents" http://pac-its.psu.edu/pub/organization/education.abroad/Brochures/Manchester —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Royle (talk • contribs) 23:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I think despite the fact that many historians of note over the centuries, and to this day, have referred to the original Celtic name of Manchester as Mancenion, and it remains in the Welsh language, there is insufficient evidence to be sure about it. However, it is almost certain that there was a Celtic name, and it does not look likely that the Roman version is a translation, but a similarly sounding renaming that had a different meaning based on their original presence in the area. Thanks for discussing. I'm glad the Brigante stronghold is mentioned, and if anyone feels "Mancenion" deserves a mention in the History Of page, I would think it is worthwhile. Alexander Royle (talk) 01:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

An etymology section has been added to the History of Manchester article, feel free to add something there with reliable sources. Nev1 (talk) 15:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Population Ranking

"Manchester has the second largest urban zone in the UK and the fourteenth most populated in Europe."

This sentence has a link in it to a page that lists Manchester as the 16th most populated urban zone in Europe. Is there another source on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.208.60 (talk) 21:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Ankara is in Asia, and Istanbul is split between Europe and Asia. That might be the thinking. Mr Stephen (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly right. When I initially added the link Manchester was 14th on the list but as Mr Stephen asserts, since then the two Turkish cities have been added to the list. It is debateable whether Ankara is in Europe, Istanbul may be but I'm not sure. Perhaps just saying Manhcester is the 14th most populated urban zone in the EU might resolve it?GRB1972 (talk) 18:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The 'LUZ' figure is ridiculous and should be removed, as it is simply another way to use a 'Greater Manchester' figure for 'Manchester', and bolster the cities population vs other cities in the UK. If you visit List_of_United_Kingdom_cities_by_population, which plainly lists the population of the UK's major cities, you will see that Manchester is 9th largest. The introduction should accurately show the population of the city, not use a figure which is purely promotional, and clearly refers more to Greater Manchester than Manchester. This is especially important considering this article is a FA. 78.109.182.8 (talk) 15:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Manchester's position within Greater Manchester is clearly notably though. Much of Manchester's (inter-)national reputation owes itself to being central to a major metropolitan area. Indeed, why do you think they called it Greater Manchester? The City of London addresses the issue in a simillar way also. --Jza84 |  Talk  16:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This point has been debated at length before but in addition to the comments by Jza84, LUZs are defined by the Eurostat, the EU's own statistical agency, a credible and oft. referred to statistical body. They were created in an effort to harmonise definitions of urbanisation in the European Union and in countries outside the European Union (such as Turkey). These definitions were agreed between Eurostat and the National Statistics Offices of the different countries of the European Union at the occasion of the European Commission's Urban Audit of 2004. Populations given by them are not necessarily just based on the metropolitan data e.g Birmingham has an LUZ population of 2.35m and an area of 1598km2 where as the West Midlands has 2.6m and an area of 902 km2.GRB1972 (talk) 17:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed so - LUZs are not just another way of expressing conurbations, but are designed as a form of Metropolitan Area, "best fit" to local authority areas. The Manchester LUZ just happens to cover the same area as the Greater Manchester Metropolitan County, though it's a different area to the Greater Manchester Urban Area. As mentioned by GRB1972, the Birmingham LUZ is not the same as the West Midlands county - both Wolverhampton and Coventry have their own LUZs, and the Birmingham LUZ includes areas from Warwickshire and Worcestershire. Fingerpuppet (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It is worded in a way to make it seem like the urban zone is all Manchester. 'Manchester has the second largest...' - but the area is a 'LUZ' by definition (an urban zone and not just Manchester). Should this not be replaced with something along the lines of 'Manchester is the 9th largest city in the UK'. Surely this is a more accurate statement, as nobody considers Salford etc to be part of the city of Manchester? It seems like this article only mentions the LUZ because it makes Manchester the second largest after London, reinforcing the long debate about its second city status? 78.109.182.8 (talk) 01:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The article already states that the popluation of the city of Manchester is 458,100 much smaller than that of the city of Birmingham so relax! There is a link to verify all the data regarding LUZs. Other cities on Wikipedia e.g New York City (which has FA status), Atlanta, Barcelona etc provide a city proper population and that of the wider area so this is not inconsistent with Wikipedia practise. I suspect had Birmingham a larger LUZ you would be less concerned. GRB1972 (talk) 08:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Well I'll have you know that I didn't even mention Birmingham, that was Fingerpuppet. I suspect that if you were impartial then you would see what I mean, and if all of the editors of this article weren't so defensive they would simply reword it. 78.109.182.8 (talk) 12:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

You brought up the second city argument Fingerpuppet didn't - he simply validated the point I had made. Solid reasons have been given above why the introduction to the article reads as it does. The editors of this page and all others relating to Greater Manchester work tirelessly to maintain high standards and work entirely within Wikipedia guidelines which is why I am proud to be a member of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Greater Manchester. Despite your concerns I have every confidence that far from being defensive - contributors to Manchester and its related articles will continue to question, and where we are able to, improve all articles. GRB1972 (talk) 12:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, there is little consistency to what figures are used. If all articles used 'LUZ' figures and it was widely regarded as a 'standard' then it would be fine, and most people would probably accept Manchester is bigger. I just think that the wording is very confusing, and makes it seem like the City of Manchester itself is the second largest and not the 'urban zone' extension which is not solely Manchester. Also, the population ranking in the infobox is somewhat hidden, whilst the LUZ ranking is given pride of place in the introduction. Surely someone can see where I'm coming from here? It just seems like only promotional figures are used.

To illustrate my point: Why is Manchester's population stated as 458,100, but not stated to be the 9th biggest city, when the LUZ is stated simply as 'second largest', and not quantified (2,539,100)?

P.S. it's probably best to keep Birmingham out of this, and I only mentioned the second city status in relation to London. 78.109.182.8 (talk) 13:15, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

You only mentioned the second city status in relation to London? London is significantly bigger and inarguably more important than all other British cities so I'm not sure why Manchester's LUZ is of any concern to London's position. The second city debate should and does take place elsewhere. I think we are in danger of going round in circles here - despite your concerns to the contrary, Manchester has FA status and with good reason - the article is very well written, verified and clear. GRB1972 (talk) 13:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Why did you completely ignore my question? FA articles are not perfect, and just because it is an FA does not automatically dismiss my concerns. Stop trying to make out that I'm some kind of impartial Birmingham-lover who cannot ask sensible questions. I think you'll find it is you who keeps bringing up the second city argument, and not me. 78.109.182.8 (talk) 14:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

A glance at the comments above shows that actually it was you who brought it up. I have explained above why the intro to this article reads as it does and my previous comments more than answer your questions. You are absolutely correct that FA articles are not always perfect and your comments on this article and any other are very welcome, respectfully though I suspect we just won't agree. GRB1972 (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to say that I'd argue that all LUZs (and the relevant conurbations, and Travel to Work Areas) should be mentioned in the city articles in an appropriate format. I'm not a Mancunian (though I have lived in the city), and I don't have a problem with it being mentioned here. Indeed, I've recently encouraged editors over at Talk:Leeds to add LUZ and TTWA data to that article. Fingerpuppet (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow!

Ok, so I'm a little behind with this (hey, I've been away for a year!)...

Well done on the Featured Article status. This article came a long was from when I reviewed it for GA Status over a year ago. :) Pursey ^{Talk | Contribs} 21:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

It's an important article for the Greater Manchester project, and not just because it's one of our main articles. The project gained momentum from here and the editors involved took some valuable lessons from the process; now the project has 29 FAs and FLs combined and 30 GAs! Nev1 (talk) 21:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Hi- I have mentioned this before but the IPA for Manchester is incorrect. It would only be pronounced with /r/ at the end by someone with say, a west country accent. It's been changed before but looks like someone's changed it back to the incorrect version again. Any chance someone could correct this? Cheers.