Talk:Hakka people

Origin of Hakka and Hakkanese: a genetics analysis

An Abstract of Original Article in Chinese

Li H, Pan WY, Wen B, Yang NN, Jin JZ, Jin L, Lu DR. Center for Anthropological Studies at Fudan University, Shanghai 200433, China. LH@cableplus.com.cn

Hakka is a distinctive Han Chinese population in Southern China speaking Hakkanese. The origin of Hakka has been controversial. In this report, we analyzed Y chromosomal markers in 148 Hakka males. Principle component analysis of Y-SNP haplotype distribution shows Hakka is clusteed strongly with the Han in Northern China, and is also close to She, a Hmong-Mien-speaking population, while the general Southern Han is fairly close to Daic populations. Admixture analysis revealed that the relative genetic contribution 80.2% (Han), 13% (She) and 6.8% (Kam) in Hakka. The network of Y-STR haplotype of M7 individuals in all concerned populations suggested two possible origins of Hmong-Mien contribution in Hakka: One is from Hubei and the other is from Canton. The Kam contribution in Hakka is likely from Kan-Yue, the ancient aborigine of Kiangsi (Jiangxi). The frequency of 9bp-deletion in Region V of mitochondrial DNA of Hakka is 19.7%, which is quite close to She but far from Han. We therefore concluded that genetically the majority of Hakka gene pool shall come from North Han with She contributing the most among all non-Han groups. Regarding the Hmong-Mien character of Hakkanese, the genetic structure of Hakka shows their core may be Kim-man, the ancient Hmong-Mien. We hypothesized that a great number of Han people from North China join this population in succession. Southern Chinese dialects, such as Hakkanese may also be those languages of Southern aborigines at first, and turn to extant appearance under the continuance effect of Northern Chinese.

My comments : This is an interesting finding based on a fairly small sample size. It shows that the Hakka lineage is predominantly North Chinese with a surprising admixture of She (a subgroup of Miao-Hmong) DNA. There must have been some intermarriage with Miao people along the centuries. The hypothesis that the original core of Hakka is She is rather weird though, given the predominantly North Chinese genetic characteristic of Hakka. There is also a comment that the general southern Chinese population has a high admixture of Daic genes (i.e. those related to the Thai, Lao, Shan and Zhuang peoples). Regarding this abstract, I'm not sure also if it is well translated. The Romanization used is not Pinyin. Wayne Leigh 05:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This study is consistent with the perception that Hakka males came from a northern Chinese stock (the Y chromosome studies), some of whom who took local non-Han Punti wives (the mDNA studies). This is what the Hakkas have been saying all along, so the genetic results aren't at all surprising. It may also confirm that the Guangdong Puntis (Yues) are descended from the Yues/Viets with Han genetics added after the Hans conquered the Yues. 86.155.215.165 21:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion - who are Hakka?

I think the first line "Hakka is also another name for the Hani people, a Nationality of China." is inaccurate. As the article states later down the page, Hakka are considered part of the Han, while the Hani are not. I think the confusion arose because there is a dialect of Hani called "Ahka". See Ethnologue. --Franchin 10:22, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

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How many of those what so called prominent Hokka people are from the Hokka region, speak Hokka, identify themselves as Hokka people in public or even know that there are people call them as Hokka people? If somebody's ancestor moved once in the last five thousand years, it does not make him a Hokka people.

I'm not certain how accurate this is, but there is some additional information here. It'll be best if an explicit reference can be provided for each person on the list. http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/people.htm --BenjaminTsai 16:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I tried to NPOV-fy this. It didn't really get -fied, did it? :-{ --Menchi 23:00 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

(Deleted irrelevant comments)

Some Hakka fled to Hong Kong while some to Taiwan during the Chinese Civil War. Is that true? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 21:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hakka were already in Hong Kong and Taiwan before the civil war. I am not sure if there was another influx during and after the civil war. — Instantnood 21:34, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

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Goodness, so many many questions. I'm Hakka, and don't have a split or double pinky toe nail. Farmers in the past often worked in wet soil cultivation. It is likely that farmers, of whatever linguistic background, may have had infections on their feet due to the conditions they worked in. Discolouration and other effects on toenails are likely fungal in nature.

Many Han Chinese have the split nail in the pinky toe. Indeed, it is said on Taiwan that this is the case. I think it inaccurate to believe this is the result of an infection. My wife (a Hakka from Taiwan) was never a farmer, yet has a the so-called double pinky toe. It is like a bump in the nail. If you don't have it, it does not mean you are not Hakka or Han. But don't assume that it is not prevalent and believed to be a sign of being a Han Chinese or Hakka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.220.188.80 (talk) 11:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Hakka people have been in Hong Kong for at least 200 years. During the Qing KangXi era, the coastal area of Guangdong was evacuated because of piracy. I think it lasted for a number of years. When the original inhabitants were ordered to move, there was no provisions made for the refugees. Many of these evacuees ended up without anywhere to live, and many are said to have died of hunger. The coastal areas were repopulated but many of the original people had died, and so the Qing government decided to give a monetary incentuve for people to move and reopen the land. The five major clans who were resident in Hong Kong since the Song Dynasty and before, came back to their richer and more fertile land around the flat river basin areas, hence you see many of these clans occupying Yuen Long, Sheung Shui, Taipo, Shatin and the like. The Hakka who came to Hong Kong during the early Qing then had to settle in the less fertile areas, the hillier terrain, often in small valleys such as the areas surrounding the clan areas, and the fjord like areas my family come from. They've been there for at least 10 generations. Dylanwhs 20:44, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

why is Chen ShuiBien listed as a Hakka? He is not and doesn't claim to be. But no evidence is cited by those who say he is. And one cannot prove a negative.16:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)~

It is rumoured that he is Japanese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.100.44 (talk) 00:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems in general more prudent to lay the burden of proof for affirmation. Otherwise people can go around picking the most influential people and claim them to be Hakka based on circumstantial evidence. --BenjaminTsai 15:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Exactly - I've edited it off in the past but people keep putting it back without real proof. There NO CLAIM - NONE at all in Taiwan or anywhere, from the President himself, his office, Party, opponents, etc etc that he's Hakka. He doesn't speak Hakka, he identifies himself as "Taiwanese" ethnicity. BlindingCranium 19:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I've been trying to do a bit more digging into this.. it seems (second hand information) that Chen Shuibian has claimed to have Hakka ancestry some time or another in the past, however the person I spoke with felt it was most likely motivated by politics (Hakka being the largest "minority" in Taiwan). Furthermore, having Hakka ancestry is different from actively identifying oneself as a Hakka. The number of people with some Hakka ancestry is undoubtably significantly larger than the number of people who actively claim to be a Hakka. What this means is a person looking for Hakka connection will find it in larger numbers than expected based on the number of people who actively claim to be Hakka. --BenjaminTsai 20:58, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Chen Shuibian has said many times that he is Hakka. His relatives in China still speak Hakka. http://www.zaobao.com.sg/special/china/taiwan/pages4/taiwan181101a.html http://www.people.com.cn/GB/tupian/70/20020815/800221.html http://news.sohu.com/16/96/news147549616.shtml http://www.zaobao.com/special/china/taiwan/pages4/taiwan030702.html

How about Li Peng? He's Hakka by blood, although he was adopted later by Zhou En-Lai & wife. It seems Hakkas only want to claim the more positive members of Chinese society, hehe. Here's a CNN article mentioning his heritage. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/china.50/inside.china/profiles/li.peng/

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In this area (Toronto) there are a number of Indian-style Chinese restaurants. All that I've asked seem to be Hakka. A google search suggests that this is not just a local phenomenon. What is the connection between the Hakka and India? Nothing is mentioned in the article. DHR 21:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

East Timorese Hakka Girl Picture

The picture that shows the East Timorese Hakka girl doesnt' look like a hakka chinese girl, she must be a mix!?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.199.178.24 (talk • contribs)

I meet a lot of pure blooded Hakka who do not look like Chinese. Is it a good proof that they are not the original Chinese as they try to convince themselves? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.4.69 (talk • contribs)

Many scholars, Hakka and non-Hakka or Chinese, agree with Luo Xianglin that the Hakka are Han Chinese, despite the suggestions by Bendi/Punti Chinese that they are not Han. These suggestions are rooted in Punti racism and the Hakka's marginal social status. Many Han Chinese -- including Punti -- do not match the typical image of "Han" and have diverse facial characteristics. I myself (a Hakka-Punti mixture) have been mistaken at many times for Korean and Japanese, even though both of my parents are from Guangdong province. LuoYanshan 19:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Puntis do not match the Han facial characteristics because their ancestors were not Han but Yue (or Viet of Vietnam). (Removed overgeneralisation) The Puntis of Guangdong are Hans by naturalisation and not by blood. The Hakkas by contrast are true Hans, having descended from Hans from what's today's Central China around the Yellow River. 81.159.86.60 21:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Myths, myths and more myths. If anything, the modern Chinese Han are more likely a result of intermixing between many ethnic groups along its long cultural history. By now, hundreds of generations of breeding later, "pureblood" is meaningless. It is an emotive word and utterly pointless description bourne more out of wishful thinking, elitism, and prejudices than can be credible. Language and ethnicity are two different thing, intertwined by use, but language does not indicate what ethnic group you are. For instance the black americans of America whose roots lie in Africa, but what ethnic group are they from? You can't tell unless you test their DNA, and over the last few centuries, interbreeding would obscure what ethncicity or pureblood as a concept would mean. The fact is, puntis and Hakka, and other minorities interbred. There is no basis for pureblood, as it is ultimately meaningless. Dylanwhs 08:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I dispute that hundreds of generations were involved. Assuming 4 generations per century on average; there are 40 generation per 1000 years. So there are 80 generations in 2000 years; hardly the hundreds of generations portrayed. 81.132.63.38 (talk) 23:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

As with all Han culture, which group one belongs to is transmitted from the paternal line. Thus in Han culture, half-siblings sharing the same father are full blooded siblings (in cultural terms and not genetics term). On the other hand half-siblings sharing the same mother are not accepted as full siblings in Han culture. 'Hakkaness' is transmitted through the paternal line. If your father is a Hakka then you are automatically a Hakka; rather like if your mother is Jewish, then in Hebrew culture, you are automatically a Jew. If your mother is Hakka whereas your father is not, then you follow whichever group your father belong to. 81.159.81.146 (talk) 00:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

How do you know if they are pure blooded Hakka? Have you trace through their ancestry? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.199.178.24 (talk • contribs)

What is a "pure blooded" Kejia? Kejia simply refers to the group of people who chose to resettle in the coastal regions of China with relocation money from the Qing government. --BenjaminTsai ^Talk 04:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

With apologies to Fernanda Correia (the subject of the photograph), I feel the picture should go. It's not a particularly good picture (thought bubbles?) nor a good representative picture of what a Kejia person looks like. --BenjaminTsai ^Talk 07:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I have a great-uncle who is half-Jamaican (black). The Chinese half in him is Hakka, so he's a Hakka, he speaks Hakka perfectly, and identifies himself as Hakka. If anyone wants to be a Hakka, they are most welcome to join us whatever their skin colour is. By the way, Mao Ze Dong's distant ancestors were also Hakka, so did that make him and his descendants Hakka? 21 Sept 06

There's no such thing as "pure blooded" Hakka, Punti, etc. LDHan 21:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

'Pure blooded' means 3/4 or higher (I think from US definition of native American), or descended from your mother if you are Jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.100.44 (talk) 00:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent Changes 21 April 2006

I have edited several of the paragraphs so they read better in English. The previous editor referenced Han_Chinese#Internal_diversity but I felt it was not explained in terms of what we already knew about Hakka. Though the study was not about Hakka per se, it does throw some light on the intermixing and of past Hakka ancestors with indigenous local aborigines, such as the Jing Vietnamese. Further, census data showing a depopulated north after the Mongol invasion, also shows up as tp why the modern northern Han population has closer blood ties towards that end of the ethnic mix.

In 1998, a discussion on the Hakka Forum at asiawind.com yielded this insight into Hakka genetics and the bond with Cantonese speakers : both had close genetic ties [1]. Evidence of the north south divide in Han genetics was observed in the study Lau quotes, and further more, Mark Elvin's table of population in Fujian during the Northern and Southern Song was given in another message [2]. Dylanwhs 21:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that explained fairly enough, the study (by Prof Yuan Yida) was about all southern Chinese per se, including Hakka who lived in Guangdong. The migration of Chinese thoughout the age from north to south are not necessarily due to the "invasion" of northern non-Han tribes (north Mongoloid though). I don't see any census data from primary sources showing a depopulated of the north after the Mongol Yuan invasion, however they did have increasedly population of the south during this era, let alone whether or not they were entirely from the north. 01:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the present day terminology is 'Internally Displaced People'. The Hakkas moved as they did not wish to be executed for 'crimes of treason' which their 9-times removed cousins were supposed to have committed. They did not tell their new neighbours where they from from for obvious reasons. 81.159.80.99 18:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That's a fascinating hypotheis, but is there a reference for this? Quite so many Hakkas can't all be descended from these people fleeing imperial punishment, surely? InfernoXV (talk) 06:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. The Hakkas are not necessarily one people; indeed they are a combination of peoples, and this is reflected in the number of Hakka languages. Hong Kong television ran documentaries of the Hakka people, which are occasionally repeated and updated for the past 30 years or so. CCTV also showed documentaries of the Hakka. 81.159.81.146 (talk) 13:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Changes 23 April 2006

"The Hakka ancestors are one of among all groups who migrated southwards and developed a dialect tongue of Meizhou in Guangdong. Even though they might be different from the Hakkas cheifly in Guangdong, Hakka people according to more recent perspective from the early 1920s are now considered to be found in the southern Chinese provinces..."

Unfortunately, the wording makes it ambiguous as to why they "may be different" especially since the former editor chose to highlight the Meizhou dialect in Guangdong. The part of the sentence "Hakka people according to more recent perspective from the early 1920s are now considered to be found in the southern Chinese provinces..." makes no sense, when it has been known since 1920 that Hakka do indeed reside in the southern Chinese provinces listed. Rather than introducing the dialect of Meizhou/Meixian at the beginning, it would be better to leave it grouped near the end about dialects, rather than regions where Hakka people reside at the beginning of the paragraph. With reference to the 1920 study of Luo Xianglin, in my last edit, I moved that to be included in the context of Han diversity further down the article as it does not seem appropriate here. I am reverting this section back to my earlier edit with one difference, the change of Tingzhou to ChangTing.

"The Hakka ancestors are thus just one group who amongst many migrated southwards. Hakka people are now found in the southern Chinese provinces, cheifly in Guangdong, south western Fujian, southern Jiangxi, southern Hunan, Guangxi, southern Guizhou, south eastern Sichuan, Hainan and Taiwan islands. The Hakka dialects across these various provinces differ, but the Meixian (Traditional Chinese 梅縣, Simplified Chinese 梅县) or Moiyan/Moiyen dialect of Hakka is considered as the paradigm example of Hakka dialects. An example of the difference includes that of the ChangTing (長汀) Hakka dialect found in South Western Fujian Province. "

Dylanwhs 09:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

That's because prior to the linguistical study in 1920s, nobody would know that Hakka reside in those areas. Furthermore, Hakka in some part of Guangxi and Sichuan don't actually call themsleves Hakka, but instead an alternant name (涯、麻介、新民 etc), it makes prefectly sense, and please take note that Meixian is no longer called Meixian but Meizhou. 11:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The different self identifiers like Ngai, Mak-Gai, Sin-Min, Tu-Gwong-Dung Va etc, are discussed in the Hakka_(Linguistics) entry elsewhere. WRT the extent of the Hakka dialects before the 1920's re: D. MacIver, A Chinese-English Dictionary Hakka Dialect, (1905), see the introduction to the first edition:

The present distribution of Hakkas is as follows - Many districts of Kwangtung (see below), parts of Kwong-si; the south-west corner of Fu-nam; the Ting-chow prefecture (and part of Changchow) in Fukien.

Stills, the author does not implied any others distribution around Jiangxi, Hunan, Guizhou, Sichuan, Hainan nor Taiwan islands based on his linguistical study, but Luo did, at least some part of it, so I think we should just change the edition back as its still makes prefectly sense. 00:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

This accounts for the majority of Hakka speaking areas. After reading through my notes from Hashimoto's The Hakka Dialect, A Linguistic Study of its Phonology, Syntax and Lexicon, Cambridge University Press (1973), Luo Xianglin's influential work was not produced until the 1930's, however, prior to that, many Hakka writers began discribing their dialects, and there are earlier pre-20th century but localised accounts of local Hakka dialects, such as Huiyang, Meixian and XingNing dialects.

In the Hakka linguistic literature, the name Meixian holds more currency than the geo-political modern renaming of the district to Meizhou. The work on Chinese dialects, Xiandai Hanyu Fangyan Da Cidian, edited by Li Rong, has the volume called "Meixian Fangyan Cidian". Lists of Chinese dialects words and phrases, such as Hanyu Fangyan Cihui, and readings of characters in Chinese dialects like Hanyu Fangyan Zihui, dictionaries of Hakka refer to the Hakka dialect of Meixian, as do general books on Chinese language discussion like Jerry Norman's "Chinese". As the name of the dialect in all these and many other sources list Meixian as the name, I think this holds much more currency, therefore I am reverting the change.

As an aside, I do know of people who wish to call the Hakka found in eastern Guangdong centred around Meizhou as Jiaying Hakka, as the old Jiaying prefecture covered just about all the smaller counties surrounding it.

Dylanwhs 19:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

It may holds more currency, but Meixian todays refer to Meizhou, naming it Meixian on the article are not suitable for the condition now, I will place an alt name besides Meixian on the edits. 00:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

With respect to Meixian, this is an actual town/city in Guangdong, but Meizhou is a prefectural district according to my map reference Zhongguo Dituce. Using Meizhou soley for Meixian may would lead to the impression that the whole Meizhou prefecture spoke exactly the same dialect as Meixian city, which, from a pedantic linguistics point of view cannot hold true as the outer fringes of Meizhou prefecture would I assume have phonological differences with the Meixian paradigm, as geographically, the area is quite large. In fact, modern Meizhou prefecture contains Wuhua, Xingning, Fengshun, Pingyuan, Jiaoling, Dabu, and other counties whose dialects are phonologically different from the Meixian dialect. The current status quote Meixian (Meizhou) can stand as it is, because it is sufficiently not explicit to indicate that they are interchangeable, but may in fact mean that Meixian is in Meizhou prefecture.

In comparison, Changting on the otherhand is the new name for Tingzhou and is a town, yet it has not been referred to as "Longyan Shi", but it resides in LongYan prefecture, Fujian. The other towns such as Rongding and WuPing also reside in the same prefecture, but they have phonological differences too with the Changting dialect. One does not propose replace Changting with Longyan, which may be precedent set out if Meizhou became the preferred name for Meixian.

Dylanwhs 09:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Mao a Hakka?

You've got him listed, but it's not mentioned in any biography I've read. Likewise for Zhu De, please give a source. --GwydionM 17:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I have seen somewhere that Zhu De was a Hakka which is quite believable; but for Mao, that he was descended from Hakkas, which could mean anything. 81.157.100.44 00:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.100.44 (talk) 00:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Do Hakka in Taiwan consider themselves Taiwanese?

I'm trying to write the ethnic group section for Demographics of Taiwan. I want to ask any Hakka from Taiwan whether Hakka people there consider themselves to be Taiwanese or do they consider themselves Hakka-ngin? "Mainlanders" (recent Chinese immigrants) tend to say they are Chinese, not Taiwanese because they strongly support the KMT/ROC as being the true China. That leaves the Hoklo people from which "Taiwanese" as a language and people tend to refer to Hoklo people. So, does Taiwanese mean Hoklo people ("Tâi-oân-lâng") or do Hakka-ngin also identify themselves as Taiwanese? — Nrtm81 09:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Many Hakka in Taiwan do consider themselves as Taiwanese, but may distinguish themselves further saying something like "Taiwanese Hakka". Half of Taiwan's Hakka population also speak Hoklo Taiwanese. It is possible that many Taiwanese have mix of Hakka and Hoklo ancestors. Some Taiwanese were Hakkas who lost the ability to speak Hakka over a few generations and instead speak Hoklo. - User talk: Dlc_73 01:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The majority of people on Taiwan considered themselves Chinese. 86.155.214.87 (talk) 02:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Hakkas in Malaysia

I am surprised to see that there is a no section on Hakkas in Malaysia when it is aubstantial majority of the Chinese population in Malaysia

What about Hakkas in the Philippines and Brunei? No section on them.

map misleading

I believe is somewhat wrong, or at least confusing. The text says JiangSu province, while the map shows up JiangXi province. The two provinces are totally different.

Corazon Aquino

(1933-; Zhangzhou (漳州) 龍海, born in Philippines), President of the Philippines from 1986 to 1992

- should be a Hokkien, not Hakka

Recent Changes - March 7, 2007

User:Exnosome seems to have removed a fair amount of XRef'd articles. I'm not knowledgable about the subject of this article at all, but do question the removal of such large amounts of information. This is posted here in hopes somebody can review this to see whether the information removed was actualy topical. Please be sure to check the user's edit history as well, as it is limited and mostly has the effect of removing information from this article.

Henan and Hainan

There appears to be some error in the map not detailing the presence of Hakka residence in the island of Hainan. Could there be some confusion between the names of these two provinces?

No error here. Hakka make up an important part of Chinese immigration to offshore islands (Hainan, Taiwan) and overseas territories. 125.225.83.83 03:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

hakka romanisation?

is there a direct link to the page where it explains about the hakka romanisation? there's an example here: hag₂ ga₂₄.

so how do i read this WITH the appropriate intonation? is there any audio files related to this? im pretty sure there is a need to hakka people to trace back the more correct use of the language communication.

mr_xmlv 18:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Sun Yatsen

Both People's Republic of China and Republic of China governments recognize Sun Yatsen as Hakka. But someone keep removing his name from here.

Dr Sun Yat Sen was Cantonese. Considering he was born in Canton, and spoke Cantonese at home, if any wish to insist he was Hakka, the onus of proof is on them. InfernoXV 12:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The area in which Dr. Sun YatSen was born is a mixed area and there are Hakka folks there and thus he can't conclusively be said to be Cantonese. So, the onus of proof would also fall on the supporters of his 'Cantoneseness' also. As I see it, he was a Chinese nationalist from Southern China. Whatever his background, if he wanted to identify with whichever group he hailed from, he would have done so in his lifetime. Dylanwhs 18:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, the original starter of this thread asserted that "Both People's Republic of China and Republic of China governments recognize Sun Yatsen as Hakka" - which is untrue, hence my reply. InfernoXV 01:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. But, it still doesn't make Dr. Sun "Cantonese" by virtue of his being born in Guangdong province. Many Hakka people speak Cantonese at home. Doesn't make them Cantonese though. "Cantonese" was the name used by some Japanese linguists to refer to Hakka at one time. See Hashimoto's The Hakka Dialect, Cambridge, 1973.Dylanwhs 08:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Sun Yatsen acknowledged that he is of Hakka descent when he was alive. And today, this is acknowledged by his granddaughter who attend the World Hakka Conferences.

References please. InfernoXV 15:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sun Yatsen's granddaughter's book - "My grandfather, Sun Yatsen" traces the Sun family ancestry to ZhiJin County, a pure Hakka county in Guangdong Province.

http://www.chinanews.com.cn/n/2003-12-04/26/376869.html (Chinese) - Reference

浓浓乡情系中原—访孙中山先生孙女孙穗芳博士

2003年12月04日 09:32 　　中新社郑州十二月三日电题：浓浓乡情系中原 　　——访孙中山先生孙女孙穗芳博士 　　作者:门杰丹 http://www.wapdm.com/Events/CNnews/CNnews.htm http://www.wapdm.com/Events/CNnews/CNnews.htm 　　“我的祖父是客家人，唯唯客家，系出中原。世界客属文化中心在郑东经济开发区奠基、建造，我将在文化中心内为祖父立一座铜像，宣扬客家精神。”孙中山先生孙女孙穗芳博士，在接受记者采访时动情地说。 　　今年已六十八岁的孙穗芳博士，现任美国孙中山和平教育基金会主席、夏威夷中国妇女慈善总会会长、夏威夷太平洋大学校董等职。十月份，世界客属第十八届恳亲大会在河南郑州召开期间，孙穗芳博士因为有事未能及时参加。十一月二十三日，应河南省客家联谊会会长林雪梅的邀请，她专程携慈善界、企业界人士等一行八人前到中原祖根地寻根拜祖，考察访问。 　　作为客家人的后裔，孙博士在对祖根地进行为期十天的考察访问期间，浓浓乡情溢于言表。此间，孙博士到祖上出生地开封陈留追祖探源，到河洛口、黄河探寻源远流长的中原文化，参观了巩义“神堤”、登封少林寺、洛阳关林庙，并到新郑皇帝故里寻根拜祖、缅怀始祖功德。 　　在洛阳华侨中学等参观地，孙博士还慷慨解囊，捐资助学。以孙博士为首的考察团一行已与河南有关部门达成协议，将洛阳华侨学校更名为中山华侨学校，在开封陈留建立一座孙中山纪念堂，在洛阳建立客家始祖地公园。孙博士将在这两地和世界客属第十八届恳亲大会期间奠基的世界客属文化中心分别为祖父孙中山立三座铜像，激励中原儿女发扬以孙中山等为优秀代表的客家先民们“开拓进取，爱国爱乡”的精神，为“振兴中华”而贡献力量。 　　“中原是中华民族文化的发源地，也是客家人的祖根地，到祖根地、孕育华夏文明的黄河岸边、到轩辕皇帝故里，寻根拜祖，内心很激动。中原儿女都很重视文化，也很积极地追忆历史，给我留下了深刻的印象。”一直致力于研究、宏扬孙中山思想,满腔热情在世界各地演讲、讲学，在华人华侨界颇具影响的孙穗芳博士欣慰地对记者说。 　　孙穗芳博士表示，她将广泛宣传中原悠久灿烂的文化和经济社会发展所取得的成就，介绍更多的海外华侨华人到中原故里寻根拜祖、投资兴业。 　　在即将结束考察访问离开中原之际，孙穗芳博士欣然提笔，饱蘸深情写下了“中原情，客家根”、“锦绣中华”十个大字。

编辑:赵莉

Again, there is the unclear meaning of 'Cantonese' in English. Canton is the inaccurate English transliteration for Guangdong (the Province) and Guangzhou (the provincial capital of Guangdong). When Canton is made into the English adjective Cantonese, it can refer to Guangdongese or Guangzhouese. The language commonly referred to as 'Cantonese' by many people is in fact Guangzhouese, but there are many Guangdongese languages used side-by-side in Guangdong Province with Guangzhouese. This language diversity is common throughout the whole of China, and is found in every single Chinese Province. Dr Sun is a Cantonese meaning he was a Guangdongese; he was never a Guangzhouese, and in all original Chinese records he was referred to as a Guangdongese. Now to his familial language, Dr Sun's familiy are Hakkas, so Dr Sun could be correctly classified as a Hakka. As like most Hakkas, he was multi-lingual and a polyglot. Thus as a Hakka person he spoke Guangdong Hakkaese, Taishanese as well as Guangzhouese. There was generally no incentive or opportunity for non-Hakka people to learn to speak Hakka. Therefore yes, Dr Sun was a Cantonese meaning a Guangdongese but not a Guangzhouese. He was from a Hakka family, so was a Hakka. 86.155.215.165 13:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.215.165 (talk) 13:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Hakka / Punti

From what I can translate ' Punti ' means ' Local ', people or products from the same area. Is it true.? Hakka also after some many thousand of years have changed with different areas pronounced differently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.52.2.90 (talk) 03:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Punti (small p) means 'local' and can refer to people and products. It means 'of this (local) land'. So when given the English capital 'P', 'Punti' means 'The Original' or Aboriginal or Native. Hakka is a Romanisation of the Chinese term, which in Chinese is spoken and pronounced differently depending on which language you speak. If you are asking whether Hakka is a single language, then the answer is no. Hakka is a family of languages. 81.157.100.12 (talk) 00:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The Hakkas have lived in Guangdong so long that they must be a Punti by now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.100.44 (talk) 00:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The heroic Hakka had a tradition that they bought the baby daughters that the Puntis wanted to kill, as Puntis favoured sons to daughters, as future brides for their sons. These 'brides-in-waiting' were called Punti Moy. Of course, the Puntis say that the Hakkas were wicked as Hakkas killed their own baby daughters, which was not true. There was no corresponding term of 'Hakka Mui' to refer to 'brides-in-waiting' in Punti, thus it would seem that the Hakkas did not sell their daughters to Puntis. The Hakkas certainly valued their daughters.

It is also not true that the Hakka peasants were poorer than the Punti. Hakkas would say the reverse was true. The reason being the Hakkas worked the land harder, and were apparently more thrifty. 81.157.100.44 22:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. How do you know this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.222.211 (talk) 20:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It is true that amongst the Chinese, Hakkas are most patriotic. Hakkas regard themselves as the true sons and descendants of the Yellow Earth. They do not claim to be people of any particular province, such as the Cantonese, Fujianese, etc, but of the whole of China; thus it is no wonder that Hakkas feature disproportionately in the leadership of China and Chinese people, past and present. 81.157.100.44 22:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

POV nonsense. The most patriotic? Sources please. If they feature disproportionately in the leadership of China and Chinese, name one Hakka Emperor please. InfernoXV (talk) 13:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no such a thing as a Hakka Emperor. The Emperor was all things to all people. Given the first Chinese empires were centred in central China, where the Hakkas originated, the spoken Imperial Court language could very well have been a Hakka-type language. What can be certain is that Shanghaiese and Guangdongese have never produced anyone of empire-wide significance. Deng Xiaoping was however sometimes called 'The Red Emperor' and Mr Deng was certainly a Hakka. 81.154.203.173 (talk) 19:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The term Hakka was given by the Cantonese to the 'Hakka' people. The term 'Punti' was given by the Hakka to the Cantonese people. 'Punti' is the Hakka pronunciation. In Cantonese, 'Punti' is pronounced 'boon-day'. 81.133.97.199 (talk) 09:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

self-contradictions?

The lead paragraph asserts that the Hakka originate in northern China -- no, southern China -- no, actually, central China. Which is it? Can anyone clarify this? 68.54.206.193 (talk) 18:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The Hakka ancestors were from what's today's central China. The North & South comments were left so the persons who wrote them can delete for themselves. Of course what's today's central China was at various times part of the northern Chineses kingdoms. In Guangdong or Hong Kong, at the southern extremity of China, anyone from anywhere north of Guangdong is referred to as a northerner. This classification includes almost all other Chinese and certainly the ancestors of the present Hakka people, as it was interpreted that they descended into the South from the North. For example, the Hongkongese regard the Hunanese and the Shanghaiese as northern Chinese peoples. It is important to point out these misunderstandings, as the general knowledge of the Hakka (outside of the Hakka people) in the West came from British sources who had their colony of Hong Kong. The impression the West had were from inaccurate sources.

Although the Chinese education placed great emphasis on the written language, where for example students/scholars were judged by the beauty of their calligraphy, very little importance was attached to the various spoken forms of Chinese. Many still regard Chinese speeches as being divided between south and north. Again to a Hongkongese (prior to its return to China), any Chinese not speaking Cantonese must be speaking 'northern' speech. I once witnessed a conversation in the hairdressers where a Cantonese middle-aged woman on hearing the hairdressers speaking in Hokkien which she couldn't understand, asked the hairdressers where they came from. The reply was Malaysia. The middle-aged woman then said, 'So you were speaking in Malaysian'. To which there was no reply.

There is much misinformation about the Hakka floating around, much of it from out of date and inaccurate sources from Hong Kong. 81.159.80.99 18:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you care to enlighten us with some reliable sources outside of your personal experiences at a hairdresser? Seicer (talk) (contribs) 02:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes Seicer, the hairdresser story was just an example. The knowledge is so commonly known amongst the Hakka, that all you have to do is to ask anyone in their community. If by a reliable source you are asking for a book, then you are onto the wrong track, because many things that were written about the Hakka are simply myths. It is like saying that the sun went around the earth, or that a whale is a fish because it is written down in the Jewish and Christian Bible. 81.154.205.12 (talk) 13:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I have both a book copy and a PDF File of the Bible, and I didn't find anything suggesting the sun went around the Earth. There are passages to suggest it is round though (Isaiah 40:12, Job 26:7) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.176.195 (talk) 22:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't just tell us, go and tell the Catholic Church. Go on, they won't burn you at the stakes nowadays. 81.154.200.253 (talk) 01:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Description of gender relations doesn't make any sense- Oh yes it does.

The article states:

"Hakka society show a patriarchal hierarchy, as any other Han Chinese population; the fundamental unit of the family is conducted in line with a Confucian ethic."

and then goes on to say:

"In Hakka society, women are equal to men, for without women there will be no men."

Which one is it?

Critic9328 (talk) 12:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Both. It is a patriarchal hierarchy where the family takes and continues the father's clan name, but where women are not treated as inferiors as in contemporary European societies. The important teaching of Confucius was : "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." 'Others' cover all humanity, regardless of sex or creed. 81.159.81.146 (talk) 01:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is both is true but women are not necessarily considered true equals. Women are not viewed as inferior but its not exactly equal either, the status of women back in the day is on par as with the status of modern women (are we truly equal?). Opportunities in relation to work and education is equal probably due to being outsiders and working on less fertile lands in the pass see the importance of using everyone effectively to work the land and manage finances. So in the past hakka families were more willing to or saw the sense in educating their daughters and their sons if they could afford it.

But Hakka sons are still more revered than their daughters even if the daughters are clever e.t.c. as they pass on the lineage of the family. Historical the women run the businesses and households, educate their children, they still cater to their husbands opinions/views. Sounds like the perception of what a modern mother should be no? Perhaps this has contributed to a common perception of non-hakka Chinese that Hakka males are lazy and opinionated. But to be fair to Hakka males like my paternal grandfather he was perfectly happy to doing the cooking and household chores whilst my grandmother worked and was not bothered by the jibes of his non-Hakka friends. There is much more co-operation in Hakka families if male egos don't get in the way! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MariposaChino (talk • contribs) 22:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course male and female are not equal. They are different anatomically, physiologically and socially. How many women want to share a public bathroom with men? Societies throughout all ages and cultures have catered for the needs of men and women in accordance of what was perceived to be their different requirements. Hakka sons are not more revered than daughters. Boys and girls have different needs. For example, the Hakkas realised that baby boys have a higher chance of infant death than baby girls (this phenomenon has recently been shown to be true), so they pay more attention to the needs of baby boys in infancy. If you don't take care of the girls, how would you get a complete family for the boys?81.133.97.199 (talk) 09:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the ' Historical the women run the businesses and households, educate their children, they still cater to their husbands opinions/views' part. Both men and women ran businesses, ran the household, worked the fields. To run businesses one need to be fast and accurate with mental arithmetics, and often Hakka women are very good at this, even if they could not read or write Chinese characters. I also believe there were many non-Hakka women who were just as capable as their Hakka sisters. 81.133.97.199 (talk) 12:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

If you think Hakka boys are more revered than Hakka girls by their parents and grandparents, then you are wrong. Hakka boys get their backsides licked by a chicken-feather duster a lot more than their sisters. Mind you that's probably true with all Chinese anyway. 81.154.200.253 (talk) 00:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

learning hakka-wa@hag ga fa

halo... is there any exisiting pages here where we can learn hak ka's romanisation language...? since the hakka "pinyin" here appears to be the standard pinyin, so i really wish to it.

hakka: halo, chiang mun naha didao ngadiu koyi hok hakka pinyim. ngai kon dao hao do sia dao hakka pinyim danhe choi wikipedia mao sia dao ngimho gonyi hakka pinyim, soyi ngai hao himong koyi hok dao ngadiu hakngin ge yiyen, FAT YONG HAKKA-WA!!

himong yiu ngin gonsim koyi bongbong-ha... nggoi@dochia@kamchia

i hope the anyone who are potentially the hakka language expert could lend some help here. thanks! mr_xmlv 10:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hakka has numerous types of romanisations, and not every one is exactly the same. There is a system used on the mainland for Meixian/Moiyen Hakka (e.g. hag⁵ ga¹ fa⁴). There are several systems from different traditions on Taiwan, by that I mean church romanisation, and whether they stem from Catholic, French or other influences. The french influenced romanisation looks almost like Vietnamese quoc ngu. Then there are those phonetic representations used by linguists, and the modified bopomofo notations.

The type of romanisation used on the Hakka wikipedia depended on an online dictionary called sii tien lomaji. It isn't online any longer. The way one used it was to type in Chinese characters, and it would spit out the romanisation complete with tone marks or diacritics. The reliance on a third party website to transliterate Hakka may have been initially brought a semblance of popularity to this sytem of notation. It is, however, far from standard. Having said that, none of the romanisations can be called 'standard' as in accepted as a single representative notation.

I use a modified mainland type Hakka romanisation

hakka:

halo, chiang mun naha didao ngadiu koyi hok hakka pinyim. ngai kon dao hao do sia dao hakka pinyim danhe choi wikipedia mao sia dao ngimho gonyi hakka pinyim, soyi ngai hao himong koyi hok dao ngadiu hakngin ge yiyen, FAT YONG HAKKA-WA!!

becomes

hak5-ga1:

halo, ciang3 mun4 na4-ha2 di1-dau4 nga1-diu1 ko3yi1 hok6 hak4 ga1 pin1 yim1. ngai2 kon4 dau3 hau3 do1 sia3 dau3 hak5-ga1 pin1-yim1 dan1-he4 coi1 wikipedia mau2 sia3 dau3 ngim4-ho2 gon1-yi1 hak5-ga1 pin1-yim1, so3-yi1 ngai2 hau2 hi3-mong4 ko3-yi1 hok6 dau3 nga1-diu1 hak5-ngin2 ge4 ngi1-ngien2 ("language" yiyen), FAT5 YONG2 HAK5-GA1-VA4!!

* I've changed all words ending in -ao to -au.

* Several vocabulary items differ from my own dialect (I've replaced my own words, and left the the original in brackets.

* The tone numbering I've used has six tone represented as 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 after the syllable.

In some romanisation which use diacritics, the tone that nearest matches the clipped syllables ending in -p, -t, and -k alone are distinguished by the lower being pitched clipped syllable as -5 and the higher pitched one as -6. The tones 1,2,3,4 are reserved for the syllables that don't have these clipped endings. The first four tones are thus:

su1 book. su2 potato. su3/siu3 hand. su4 to_count. suk5 uncle. suk6 cooked_thoroughly

Transcribing them to the appropriate diacritic used on Hakka Wikipedia can be seen in my pages [here] and [here] and [here] and [here]

Hope this helps. Dylanwhs (talk) 21:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Off topic comments

I've deleted the reinsertion of a large number of chit chat comments. Please keep all comments on topic. I.e. how to improve the article. Cheers. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Hakka history

The beginning of the article make it sound as though the entire 'Hakka' population from central China left for south China lock, stock and barrel, and they no longer exist in central China. Was this actually the case? Surely the ancestors of the Hakka people in central China were not themelves called Hakkas. And surely many people in central China share the same ancestry as the Hakka people of south China, if indeed the Hakkas of the south originated in central China. The languages of these people in central China should also share the same root as the Hakka languages of south China. Of course, the people of central China may not call their language Hakka, as they had never left the region. Are there any reports and reserach in this subject? 81.154.203.177 (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Below is a link to CCTV9 giving a list of Hakka programs. There was a Hakka program broadcast today made by a Canadian lady that is not on the list.

http://web.search.cctv.com/olsearch.php?db=Newenweb&page=2&ln=EN&q=hakka&day_1=&day_2=

81.157.101.216 (talk) 00:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hakkas in Hong Kong

I find that the article emphasized too much on Hakkas in Hong Kong, which does not give a comprehensive picture of the Hakka culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.88.23.26 (talk) 15:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ne Win (Burma)

I am of the opinion that Ne Win should not be classified as Hakka (although he is suspected to be of Meixian ancestry, as he does not even claim to be Chinese, let alone Hakka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.88.23.26 (talk) 04:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

moved

Moved from Hakka to Hakka people per nearly every other well-developed ethnic article on Wikipedia. kwami (talk) 10:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)