Talk:The Cask of Amontillado

The US Army story: apocryphal?

I see no other mention of the US Army version of the story when I Google for it. If this is apocryphal, I suggest it be removed. Jonathan Grynspan 01:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

As I wrote recently to someone else who asked me about it, it is not apocryphal. I read it in a sidebar to a version of the story in a McDougal Littell high-school English textbook; it in turn cited a Poe biography (although I can't remember which one; it wasn't recent, I don't think). Daniel Case 04:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's got apocryphal written all over it. I found a handful of references to it - here, here and here that strongly suggest it's at the level of local legend rather than historical fact. The variation in details is one clue that it's some kind of accreting urban myth: one says the guy was walled alive for cheating at cards, another says it was for shooting a fellow officer, the third says it was for stabbing him in a duel. The young officer is elsewhere called Massie, not Baillie; and the bullying captain John Foster (or Forster) rather than Joshua Green. But the most suspicious aspect is the lack of wider verifiability. Tearlach 13:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Origin

While a private in the Army stationed at Fort Independence outside Boston in 1827, Poe grew curious as to why a lieutenant, Robert Baillie, was buried on fort grounds with a gravestone celebrating his good friendship with many men. He learned from older veterans that the lieutenant had been very popular with his men and had many friends.

On Christmas Eve of 1817, the unit was playing cards while it celebrated the holiday, and a much less popular officer, Captain Joshua Green, suddenly accused Baillie of cheating him and demanded immediate satisfaction. He was an accomplished swordsman, and in the ensuing duel he ran Baillie through and killed him.

Later on his friends conspired to get the captain drunk and, just as in the story, tricked him into the lower dungeons of the fort where they, too, bricked him up to die. He was eventually listed as a deserter and no one save the men who had avenged their friend this way knew the truth.

In 1905, workers renovating the fort found a small room with no exit containing a chained human skeleton with shreds of an old Army uniform, confirming the story.

• If as the biography suggests that this story was an act of revenge by Poe on a critic and a newspaper editor-he was more of a genius then has

been previously realized.

The story may be apocryphal, but the popular association of the two is not. e.g. I believe this should be in the article, but handled with NPOV and a big dose of skepticism. I don't think Wikipedia will ever get a better certainty (unless that 1905 skeleton anecdote bears out!), but that doesn't mean we can't include this information and explain it appropriately. --Dhartung | Talk 07:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

This story is featured in the book "Mysterious New England", by Edward Rowe Snow. It is certianly written in a way that suggests that is is apocryphal, and includes fanciful descriptions of details know one could possibly know. (It describes the night in which the officer is entombed as "moonless"). Still this is so closely associated with the tale that I second the motion that this story be included in the article, skepticism included.

Yep: I go with that. There's certainly plenty of solid evidence for the existence of the story and Poe's inspiration by it. Tearlach 00:26, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

In an attempt to provide requested citations, I have shortened the section on this legend to the details that I could verify. I am copying the whole section as I found it to the talk page here, in case some of these details can be verified, although from their narrative tone I doubt they can be.Jlittlet 03:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The inspiration for "The Cask of Amontillado" allegedly came from a story Poe had heard at Fort Independence when he was a private there in 1827, though this cannot be confirmed.[citation needed]

Poe was fascinated with the inscriptions on a gravestone within the fort, specifically one marking the grave of Robert F. Massie. Poe learned that in 1817 Massie came to Fort Independence and became friends with many of the men; however, there was one officer, Captain Drane, who disliked him. Drane was the fort bully and was known as a dangerous swordsman.

Few officers were allowed to leave for Christmas, so on Christmas Eve, the officers left at the fort were playing cards. At the height of the card game, Captain Drane became angry and accused Massie of cheating. He started a duel and Drane, being the excellent swordsman that he was, ran Massie through. Massie died the next day.

Years later, a few officers decided to take a horrible revenge on Drane for Massie's death. They visited Drane one night, faking a friendly visit and got him drunk. Then, they carried the captain down to an ancient dungeon and forced his body into a small opening which led into the subterranean casemate in which they sealed Drane in with bricks and mortar. According to one account, Drane sobered up during the sealing, and unsuccessfully pleaded for mercy.[citation needed]

Edgar Allan Poe (1809-1849) was once asked where he got most of his material for his works. His reply: "From the newspapers" ----giving much credence to the idea that truth is more often stranger than any fiction. Early newspaper editors during Poe's lifetime often went far beyond the facts of the stories very often providing details of crimes rarely mentioned in lead stories today. Writers very often look for the "seed germ" for a story and build the plot around that seed. The seed for the story compared with the final masterpiece merits just that----the seed. The skill and creativity of the work surpass any background material used for the story----the final piece, as "The Cask of Amontillado," exists arguably as the finest short story ever written in the English language. As a noted critic said decades ago about the story, "Every word gives added twist to the irony of the initial situation." Compact, carefully delineated, markedly diabolical, syntactically perfect, and strangely foreboding, the tale wound a path to certain death for a very unfortunate antagonist. The crowning irony of the story resided in the fact that the cask of amontillado never existed----the ruse fooled the intoxicated Fortunato who even despite being a member of the Masonic Lodge, was deprived of life, liberty, property, clergy, and a Masonic burial. His last words were, "For the love of God, Montresor!"

"THE CASK OF AMONTILLADO" --------Poe's Perfect Crime

Montresor, the protagonist, committed the perfect crime of murder upon his antagonist, Fortunato. All of the typical pieces of evidence of a crime were rendered non-existent. There was no single eye witness, no murder weapon, no body, no blood, no scream escaped the catacombs, and no chance of discovering the body. In addition, no motive could be established, nor any opportunity could be dedeuced. Montresor waited 50 years to tell the story at which time there would be no worry of conviction.

Added a lil trivia

Vandalism?

No, it is NOT part of the story. I've re-read it, and could not find it anywere. I do believe it was vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.159.147.61 (talk) 22:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I removed this text, which I couldn't make sense of: "and the man once said "most people love with their heart,well to me i think we should love with our minds so we dont fall apart!" and everyone toasted to that..and then he went away to his home."

Was this part of another sentence that made sense somewhere else? If this is something useful, feel free to revert my changes.

Stories influenced by "The Cask of Amontillado"

Bullet please.100110100 03:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Montressor's Last Rites?

I've read somewhere that the narrator (montressor) is in the process of receiving his final rites. The story is a confession, to clean his soul before he dies. In the versions I've read, there are two lines that are italicized: "For the Love of God Montressor!" and "In pace requiescat." Montressor's motives behind his confession change when the italicized words are read as the voice of a priest (listening to Montressor's confession) rather than Fortunado. "For the Love of God, Montressor!" may have been the last words of Fortunado OR it could have been the voice of the priest expressing his horror at Montressor's confession. "In pace requiescat" could be Montressor's words to Fortunado OR it could be the priest's words to Montressor when he dies.

→ I don't think it's likely. If you were to take "For the love of God, Montresor!" out of the story line, as if a priest were saying it, why would his reply (to the priest) not be in italics as well? In addition to that, if he were saying In pace requiescat! to the priest, it would be in quotes, instead of like it is, without them, speaking to the reader. 4.244.171.117 20:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

It's very speculative anyway. It's a nice idea, but not WikiPedia-worthy. Midnightdreary 05:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Nemo me impune lacessit

We have an article on Nemo me impune lacessit. Should it not be mentioned in the article here? --Mais oui! 08:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Great call... I added it a few days ago based on your suggestion. Midnightdreary 05:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Works Influenced

The Works Influenced section has gotten a bit long. I'm thinking a massive edit is needed, converting the narratives to much more succinct bullet points. Any thoughts? Midnightdreary 05:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• I have added an OR tag to this section. Absent a reliable secondary source attesting that a particular story was inspired or influenced by TCoA, stating that such an influence or inspiration exists is speculation and original research. In addition, the section is bloating into a "spot the reference" pop culture segment, amounting to a trivia section which is to be avoided. Otto4711 17:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I know these types of sections are problematic - but some of these can be salvaged. The only ones I would suggest are speculative are James Thurber, Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child and Arthur Conan Doyle. The others are fairly obvious and either use Poe's name (Martian Chronicles) or exact quotes that are definitive of the story which certainly aren't coincidental ("For the love of God, Robinson." "Yes, for the love of God."). It's up for debate, though. -Midnightdreary 17:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, and I argue that more than a few references can be removed. The only ones strictly relevant are those that specifically use Poe's name or exact quotes. All the rest "inspired by" are suspect. Merely walling up or burying someone alive is not sufficient to claim inspiration or reference to TCoA. Poe himself certainly did not invent the motif. Nuranar 13:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Analysis

Okay, here's the thing with the analysis. To avoid accusations of original research, every other sentence should have an in-line citation, referencing as many sources as possible. The large block quotes (which, I would argue, are unnecessary and should be paraphrased) should definitely be followed with an in-line citation. I'll wait on B9 hummingbird hovering, because these are your additions, it should be up to you to start adding citations. How many sources are you using, by the way? --Midnightdreary 01:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

One Source template tag has been added to the Analysis section. It would be nice if the editor who has been working on it would respond to my comments! :) I do have some questions... why is "sic" added throughout the block quote? Why are the block quotes even there? How is this single source so notable and relevant that it is used so extensively? I think this article is one of the closest relating to Poe to potential Good Article status, so let's make sure we're going about this the right way. I'm going to start adding further citation requests in the next day or two. --Midnightdreary 12:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

19th century Italy?

It is set in Italy, but the time is unknown. You can't just assume that the story is set in the 1800s because that is the time it was written or published. I think an unkonwn time, or something along those lines would fit better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.98.113 (talk) 02:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad point. Because there is no clear date given, it probably shouldn't mention anything at all. I'll make the change. --Midnightdreary 03:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Montresor's coat of arms

Could it be that Montresor's arms show a scene from the Bible? It's in the story of Adam & Eve's expulsion from the Garden of Eden when God says to the snake "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (1 Mose 3, 15 New International Version) Maybe Poe was influenced by that scene; at least I've never encountered these arms anywhere else. ViennaUK (talk) 17:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Or it could be just a fictitious coat of arms. Really, it's not a bad theory or suggestion - but you'd need a more scholarly source to include it here, lest it be considered original research. --Midnightdreary (talk) 18:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Different Interpretation

I don't have a source for this yet, but my understanding of the story in relation to theme is not that it speaks out against drunkenness, but instead speaks out against revenge, showing the evil caused by Montresor's insanity and obsession. Has anyone else heard it this way? Does anyone have a source relating to this? Comments? JoeyETS (talk) 05:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It speaks out against revenge?? Considering the story in relation to Thomas Dunn English, it doesn't seem like a believable interpretation. There are so many ways to interpret any story, but I would take that one with a grain of salt. In particular, scholars tend to point out the nearly complete lack of remorse Montresor has for his actions. Considering he literally gets away with murder, it hardly seems like a cautionary tale against revenge. Even so, if you find a source, toss it in here. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Montresor's Family Motto

I believe that Montresor's family motto was probably borrowed from the British 42nd Highland Regiment, on whose cap badge it appears150.231.246.1 (talk) 15:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC) Wm. Snyder snydhack@yahoo.com

That's interesting. If you have a source that says that Poe may have been inspired by that particular regiment, feel free to add it in. Otherwise, it's just original research. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Montressor

The word "Montressor" is not used anywhere in the article, yet it redirects here. You should either explain the term or delete the redirect. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 04:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Montresor (correct spelling) is the name of the main character in the story. My assumption is that someone created the redirect for the misspelling. --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You're here because of the Questionable Content reference too, right? ;) Elmo iscariot (talk) 17:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No motive, really?

Listen, I've read quite a bit of your stuff related to "The Casque" and you seem to be very on top of things. However, how you can support the theory that "Montresor's motive for murder is uncertain other than the vague "many injuries" to which he refers", I have no clue. The entire first paragraph in the story gives more the a simple explanation as to why Montresor has decided to do away with Fortunato. "The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had born as best I could." That's "thousand" not "many" as you quote. And then to not give more credit to the guy who suggested the theory that Montresor was giving a confession, when within the next few lines Montresor the unarguable narrator of the story utters " You, who so well know the nature of my soul, will not suppose, however, that I gave utterance of a threat." To whom do you suggest he is talking to? God, a priest, or do you offer that it is the reader with whom Montresor relays his story? Then to give credit to the arbitrary and rather complacent theory that Montresor must be insane to have committed this murder is, for lack of a better word, a cop-out, especially when you consider the context of date and time within which the story was written, 1846 a period in time when insults were grounds for duels and death. Consider for a moment that in our own country (assuming that you live in the States) Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr dueled to the death not 42 years prior. Is it then so hard to consider that insult alone was motive? I think not.

Right, so there you have it. Cheers, and have a great weekend!

Alex Marvel University of Alaska —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dogwoodflowers (talk • contribs) 20:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

No need to be so aggressive. The Wikipedia project is based on verifiability, and you'll note that the majority of the analysis given in this article is sourced to reliable sources. It is not up to any of us to analyze this story (or any other) but to provide previously-published analysis. If you find sources that make the statements you made, feel free to add them. However, keep in mind that analysis is, by its very nature, unprovable and, as such, no theory is ever wrong or right. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Connoisseur

"Though Fortunato is presented as a connoisseur of fine wine, his actions in the story make it questionable. For example, he becomes so drunk he would be unable to identify the Amontillado and treats De Grave, an expensive French wine, with very little regard by drinking it in a single gulp"

Why is it questionable? Connossieur doesn't always mean snob. Fortunado seemed the glutton to me in the story. Plus, it's also possible even a snob who has access to all the best wines might dipose of them in such a gulping fashion to prove the reverence belongs to his person, and not the wine. Perhaps it would be better to toss in a qualifier: "...some find his actions in the story questionable." That way it doesn't sound so, well, snobby. 24.163.127.19 (talk) 09:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC) DEL