Talk:Dalai Lama

Politics

Since if I understand correctly the Dalai lama were head of state for a long tie, it would seem reasonable to say something about what kind of economic and social policies they organized. 90.11.101.23 (talk) 11:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

  You are openning a can of worm if you do that.  You would be amazed about the dirts this would dig up.  Someone who is   friend with the nazis, gets funding from CIA, and a slave owner in nature, what do you think about the economic and soclial policy they would organize?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.155.251.98 (talk) 09:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC) 

SEMI-PROTECTION FOR ARTICLE?

According to my experience with this article, there seems to have been too many vandalism edits. Should this article, according to your Wikipedia ethics, be semi-protected for a while? (or indefinite?) Prowikipedians (talk) 06:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe this lock should have been done after correcting a few types, but mostly after deleting this comment: "The current 14th Dalai Lama seeks separate Tibet from China, although he lies to the Western world that he only seeks autonomy." Or at least provide a source for that? To me that just sounds like a political comment by someone close to the Chinese-enforced view... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.53.245 (talk) 13:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

An article for mainstream people

For once I agree with the tags added to the top of the article - there is way to many weírd words in the article. I wish to know a bit about the Dalai Lama, not become a scholar on buddism and tibet and their langauge. "The Dalai Lama is often thought to be the head of the Gelug School, but this position officially belongs to the Ganden Tripa" Whatever any of that means - this shouldn't be at the top but way down in some appendix. --IceHunter (talk) 16:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

"Semi-protection"

I am a registered user, so why is this "semi-protected"? I read through a bunch of complicated rules, policies, and guidelines yesterday, and semi-protection stops non-registered users from editing. Am I not registered? --User:Iambus^৹ | talk 19:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Independence from China

I don't know where this belongs, so i put it here. In the History-section it says "The current 14th Dalai Lama seeks separate Tibet from China, although he lies to the Western world that he only seeks autonomy." Sounds very odd and POV for me, if someone who can will change this for something better, or remove it alltogether. 81.197.71.87 (talk) 20:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This has to have been written by someone in the Chinese government, or influenced by same. It is a classic example of the ridiculous propaganda that they promote. The Chinese may have a 'law' on reincarnation, but it's simply ludicrous. The Dalai Lama does not lie and he is still the leader of Tibet - even though they forced him to leave. Had he not left, he would be passed on and the chinese would have appointed a puppet Dalai Lama in his place, just as they have done with other high lamas since the Maoist goverment invaded Tibet. The Chinese are guilty of horrible crimes against humanity and no one in the world community will effectively hold the responsible, because sadly, the chinese government has many countries (the US in particular) by the purse strings because of their cheap imports and deeply embedded (and hidden) business ties with conglomerates like Walmart, as well as with government officials and the families of same (such as Nancy Pelosi's husband).

This article is 90% untruth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melbuckner (talk • contribs) 05:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The dalai lamas and their cronies were and are guilty of horrible crimes against humanity, and no one in the world community will effectively hold them responsible as they were done in the name of religion. If they were held responsible, then every country will need to look at its own religious past, and all the skeletons in its cupboards. 81.154.201.191 (talk) 22:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

WRONG- the puppet leader is NOT A FAKE DALAI LAMA, HES A FAKE PANCHEN LAMA. unfortunetly japanese were not held responsible, and neither were the western powers and the USA when they commited severe atrocities against humanity, and btw wikipedia is BLOCKED IN CHINA, so its impossbile someone from china screwed the article up. YOU are 90% misinformed as i have just proved now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RestoreTheEmpireSociety (talk • contribs) 06:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It is by no means impossible that someone in China edited this article just because the Wikipedia is blocked there - there are (according to the press) some 30,000 "internet police" in China and it would seem very likely that at least some of them would be in a position to edit the Wikipedia. John Hill (talk)

Right John, and you are a member of the CIA. 86.155.214.87 (talk) 02:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits by Lxoe

Lxoe, your changes are completely inappropriate. You are changing sourced material without, I am sure, even bothering to check those citations to see if your additions are supported by them. You are making highly POV edits that are not what the article needs - you also removed material without an explanation. Thus I have reverted - please bring the discussion here next time. John Smith's (talk) 22:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Dalai Lama lies ?

From the Article:

The current 14th Dalai Lama seeks separate Tibet from China, although he lies to the Western world that he only seeks autonomy.

Surely this cannot be included without very strong evidence. It would be grounds for a libel suit in the UK. 82.13.143.58 (talk) 01:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The comment has been removed from the article. --User:Iambus^৹ | talk 04:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

the person who continually adds that line is Lxoe. I have attempted communication with him on his talk page regarding this continuing POV edits. I have also linked him to His Holiness so that he can read and understand the definition. If he reads this discussion page (which, statistically speaking, is unlikely given that most vandals don't care about the community which they vandalize), I also encourage him to read libel and Reliable Sources for wikepedia's policies on spreading lies about living people. If the Dalai Lama were truly a mean-spirited person as this person claims he is, I imagine HH would want to sue Lxoe for posting unsourced and untrue information about him. Interesting catch-22. It's always those who are willing to lie about others who end up victimizing those who aren't willing to victimize. Dragonnas (talk) 16:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC) (I always forget to sign my comments :P)

WHAT.

(Written 7:22 PM EST on March 30, 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.249.157.129 (talk) 23:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it sad that I come here to try and get some layman's terms of what exactly a dalai lama is and the first thing I read appears to be a bunch of gibberish?

What the heck kind of first sentence is this?

"In Tibetan Buddhism, the successive Dalai Lamas form a lineage of (tulku) magistrates and religious leaders which traces back to 1391.[1]"

You don't even tell us what dalai lamas are before you tell us what they do, of course, smathering this with more stuff we don't even know about in the first place.

As someone who knows nothing about the subject, could we get some clean-up here? Thank you!!

--Concerned and Frustrated —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.249.157.129 (talk) 23:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. I will be working on this page over the next few weeks and trying to clean it up as part of my general plan to remove POV and needless confusion from tibetan and Dalai Lama-related articles. Dragonnas (talk) 17:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the end-all source for information. Go to a library, read some books, check other websites. Then, if you find it appropriate, make the changes yourself. Your complaints are unfounded. --Bentonia School (talk) 18:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Cleaned Up Intro

I have just written a new introductory paragraph to familiarize laymen with the Dalai Lama title. I have moved the former intro paragraph down and left it mostly intact, as it is suitably written as an "additional information" secondary paragraph. Hopefully this will improve the readability of the article! Please suggest changes on talk page or let me know if you like it! Dragonnas (talk) 21:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

A messive improvement. As you can see from the above discussion, we've had some serious problems in the past with users inserting tons of opaque jargon into the intro which makes it unreadable. Please feel free to keep up the good work. Thanks! Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Jargon removed from article

The successive Dalai Lamas form a lineage of tulku magistrates and religious leaders which traces back to 1391. According to tradition, the rarified mindstream of these tulku take repeated births and embodiment to fulfill their Boddhisattva vow. They are of the Gelug School of Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhists hold the Dalai Lama to be one of innumerable incarnations of Avalokiteśvara ("Chenrezig" [spyan ras gzigs] in Tibetan), the bodhisattva of compassion.

The above paragraph was cut from the article due to being mostly unreadable. However, I believe that it contains important information about the background of the Dalai Lama, it just doesn't need to be in the first paragraph. Can someone go through this information and incorporate it as appropriate into the remainder of the article? For example, there should be some mention of the Boddhisatva of Compassion in this article, but perhaps not in the intro sentence. Thanks for your assistance! Long live wiki. Dragonnas (talk) 21:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Saw the tags on the article re jargon and minimally copy-edited intro. There is a lot of repetition in the article. For instance, in the intro it explains "Ocean Teacher" and then right away it appears in the next section as well. This probably should be moved into that section since it fits the header better and it not necessary in the lead. Best, Renee Renee (talk) 03:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Good ideas, I actually wrote the top intro, I've been trying to rewrite the whole article bit by bit. I will remove the "ocean teacher" part from below; my reasoning is that linguistic breakdowns of terms are typically in the topic paragraph of encyclopedia articles, not in the expanded background.Dragonnas (talk) 15:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. You'll have to change the header to the next section then. I haven't really looked at the rest of the article yet but I thought the entry was pretty good and clearly written -- good job! Renee (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Consolidation

Hi Folks, I consolidated the duplicate sentences about what the name means into the intro. I then consolidated the remainder of the "nomenclature..." section into History, where it seemed to fit best given both speak of the third Dalai Lama. Hope this is agreeable to everyone. Renee (talk) 02:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Question

I have a question regarding these sentences, The Dalai Lama has recognized a different child, Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, as the reincarnated Panchen Lama. This child and his family have been taken into 'protective custody' according to the PRC... Has the PRC taken Gedhun Choekyi into protective custody? Or, has the current Dalai Lama done this? Thanks, Renee (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Gedhun Choekyi has been taken into protective custody by the government of china. He has not been seen in public since 1995 and many believe he is no longer living, but there is no evidence one way or the other- hence, the wiki-linked "forced disappearance". Otherwise- Excellent work, by the way! I like what you've done with the article, it's more of a time expenditure than I was capable of and I thank you. Careful, I noticed a few particle and tense errors... is english your first language? I might tighten up the grammar here and there but I like most of it immensely.Dragonnas (talk) 04:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Very interesting. It'd be nice to include this in the article -- I'll see if I can find a citation. Regarding is english your first language -- sure is and sadly my only. Graduated 1st in my class from a nationally-ranked journalism school, hold a Ph.D., and have published enough articles, chapters, and books to wallpaper my house. I think the issue is that I'm trying to edit/streamline while keeping the voice of the original writer instead of rewriting the passages from scratch. Also, I write more colloquially, i.e., what "sounds" write right (pun intended, :). As an aside, the grammar check on programs like Microsoft Word are just plan wrong. I've had many discussions with my English prof colleagues on this very issue. Having said that, if you don't like something please feel free to change it! Won't bother me a bit. Thanks, ReneeRenee (talk) 08:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I've found a few articles about Gedhun Choekyi.

This one says, In 1995, China arrested the Panchen Lama, the number two in Tibetan Buddhism, a six-year-old, Gedun Nyima. He has not been seen since, but many Tibetans told me they believe he has fled to India.

This one says, In the 1990s, when the 11th Panchen Lama had to be chosen following his predecessor’s death, the six-year-old nominee endorsed by the Dalai Lama mysteriously disappeared, after which China appointed its own candidate.

This one says, But the Panchen Lama named by the Dalai Lama in 1995 was arrested by the Chinese and hasn't been seen since (he was 6 years old at the time of his arrest).

And finally, this one says, He was called the world's youngest political prisoner when, as a six-year-old, he was taken into Chinese custody in 1995. He has not been seen or heard of since.

These sources make it sound like he was arrested, not taken into protective custody. What do you think? Would you agree with making this change? Renee (talk) 09:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that he has been arrested, but the chinese authorities state he is in protective custody, and since those authorities control chinese media they have plausible deniability. In my opinion, "forced disappearance" is the best description for what has happened to him, because he hasn't been charged with a crime, and the only entity who claims to know his whereabouts is not trustworthy and also not providing evidence for his continued existence. I'd go with the most neutral option, stating that according to non-credible sources, he has been taken into protective custody, which for all intents and purposes is equal to being placed under arrest.Dragonnas (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the last two citations are the most neutral and have the best record for vetting and fact-checking, so how about using those two? Renee (talk) 01:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Tibetan title

In this article, the suggested pronunciation for the Tibetan (in Wylie transcription) yid bzhin nor bu is "yeshe norbu", but this is somewhat dubious: "yishin norbu" would be a better pronunciation spelling (though there is always room for discussion, given the number of Tibetan dialects). There is indeed a Tibetan word whose pronunciation would be represented by "yeshe", namely ye shes, but that word means something like primordial wisdom, which is not the meaning of the word yid bzhin, wish-fulfilling. The phrase yid bzhin nor bu is correctly explained in the article as meaning wish-fufilling jewel. Gzhanstong (talk) 21:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You are quite right. I will adjust the article.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 15:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The style "His Holiness"

The article includes a sentence that reads, He is often referred to simply as "His Holiness" (HH), or "His Holiness The Dalai Lama." "Simply" is somewhat misleading, since, depending upon context, "His Holiness" refers to a number of different religious leaders, and probably most persons in the Western world would, upon hearing it, think in the first instance of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope).

A better statement of the situation would be this:

Many diplomats, politicians, and Western students of Tibetan Buddhism address him with the style "His Holiness," although, strictly speaking, he is not the head of a religious group in the required sense (see "Usage" at His Holiness).

Gzhanstong (talk) 23:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

"Spiritual and temporal leader"

The first line of the article says, "Dalai Lama is the title given to an individual who is the spiritual and temporal leader of Tibetan Buddhists worldwide." This seems quite unclear and requires a lot more nuance. What does it mean to say that he is the temporal leader of Tibetan Buddhists? So a convert to Tibetan Buddhism living in, say, France, would acknowledge the Dalai Lama as his or her temporal leader? How so? Even to say that the Dalai Lama is a temporal leader of Tibetans in Tibet is highly controversial and not really in evidence. As for whether the Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists, this is also controversial. There are five major sects of Tibetan Buddhism (Gelug, Kagyü, Nyingma, Sakya, and Jonang) and the Dalai Lama is the de facto head of one of them. The controversial issue is his role in the other four sects, which are hardly marginal. Traditionally, he has no role. This being the case, it won't due to say that he is the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists. Pending a rewrite that resolves these issues, I am removing the first sentence.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

You're aware that this removes a huge chunk of context, right? If it needs to be made more specific, make it more specific. That sentence is the first time in months that the article has started with an introduction which gives the lay reader a reasonable place to start, and its omission isn't a very good idea. I'd much rather it be re-added without "temporal" and with "worldwide" made sect-specific. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I agree that the previous intro was not very good, but the new version was not that great, either, since it led with inaccuracies right off the bat. I like your suggestion, at least as a temporary measure, and I have rewritten the opening sentence accordingly.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The revision is perfect, thanks. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sometimes he was seen as spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhist, but in fact this is not true. Before PRC occupation Dalailama was political leader of Tibet, after Chinese invasion he becomes (unnoficial but accepted) representative of Tibetans and Tibet's affair on international stage. His function is is politcal and national, but not religious (except Gelug school). But he is also most popular buddhist teacher (and maybe Buddhist) on the world. In this context sometimes he can be seen as a representative of Buddhism in the modern world. Maybe mixing this two roles (political leadership of Tibet and popularity as a Buddhist teacher) in media made this mistake so common. --Tadeusz Dudkowski (talk) 21:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

A couple of references below which addresses the question above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJY1eK9jQ28&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fruuxoDQpSc&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.234.106 (talk) 00:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The dalai lama is not a teacher or leader of Buddhism- he is a teacher and leader of tibetan buddhism (lamaism). Buddhism and tibetan buddhism are two different religions by western defintions in the same way Roman Catholicism and Mormonism are two different religions. 81.157.99.169 (talk) 00:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that they fall under the category of Buddhism. Similar to Christianity, it has many branches. You cannot deny that they are totally separate religions, just like Tibetan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism. Prowikipedians (talk) 04:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Buddhism amd tibetan buddhism are not simply branches of the same religion, they are different religions by western definition. A Mormon does not agree with the Christianity of a Roman Catholic, and a Roman Catholic will not agree with the 'Christianity' of a Mormon. The dalai lama is accepted by tibetan buddhists as a teacher, he is not accepted by buddhists in general as a buddhist teacher. 81.133.120.149 (talk) 11:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Geoffduggan and his various sockpuppets

This is getting tiresome - I'm sure even more so for those of you who defended this article over the weekend. What do you all think we should do about this user / users? Yunfeng (talk) 16:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nomenclature

Dalai means 'great sea', which is translated as ocean. Dalai lama means the great sea lama, which could be better translated as Chief Lama. 81.133.120.149 (talk) 12:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions on editing the article? It already says that "Dalai" means ocean?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 12:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Do what you like. Generally Tibetans, especially characters in history, do not know what an ocean is as they live in a land-locked habitat thousands of miles from the nearest ocean. So 'as deep as an ocean' has no real meaning to Tibetans. 81.157.101.216 (talk) 13:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The name was given to one of the Dalai Lamas by a Mongolian Khan, who very well knew what the sea is. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Well actually the tibetan word is gyatso, and existed before the word dalai was bestowed. Tibetans of that time had not seen an ocean. 81.154.201.191 (talk) 22:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is rather disingenuous as many Sanskrit and Chinese texts had been translated into Tibetan by this time and, as the ocean is mentioned in many Buddhist texts, it seems very unlikely that educated Tibetans had no idea of what an ocean was. Also, many people in the world today have never seen the ocean - this does not mean the its use as a metaphor has no meaning for them. John Hill (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Which Buddhist texts are you talking about? What do you mean by there are many people who have never seen an ocean? Do you think they have not seen an ocean on television or in a film? The vast majority of Tibetans back then have never seen an ocean or a true picture of an ocean. The vast majority of people alive right at this moment have seen an ocean or a true image of an ocean. 86.155.214.87 (talk) 02:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

What's your point?

To clear up a little of your ignorance, you can read a bit about some of the masters of early Tibetan Buddhism here you'll notice that many of these were translators. Tibetans translated every Sanskrit text they could find and a great deal of Chinese texts as well. Written Tibetan is based on Devanagari, the form often used to write Sanskrit. Tibet, because of its dry and cold climate, is a wonderful place to store books. While books in India and China have rotted away, the monasteries of Tibet are treasure houses of old texts, especially Sakya, which was spared a lot of the destruction of the Cultural Revolution. --Gimme danger (talk) 04:55, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

To clear up some of your ignorance, the vast majority of the Tibetan people are not masters of early Tibetan buddhism. The vast majority of Tibetans had not seen an ocean, and had no idea of what an ocean really was. 86.147.244.1 (talk) 15:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Ascended masters?

The link to ascended masters gives a very strange impression that the Dalai Lama is somehow related to the Theosophy movement. Nor could I find mention on that page that the Dalai Lama is in fact believed to be an ascended master by Theosophists. Does anyone mind if I rephrase ascended master (any suggestions?) and remove the wiki link? Dakinijones (talk) 20:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It may be true. Apparently most ascended masters were supposed to be Tibetan, according to the Wiki article. And we all know that if Wikipedia says it, it must be true. :-) Could be something to look into. At any rate, the link in the lead is certainly WP:UNDUE. I think the word that we're looking for is bodhisattva if we're talking about beings who choose to be reincarnated. And since the DL is considered an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, that word seems best. --Gimme danger (talk) 20:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Ascended master is a synonym for Bodhisattva, essentially a western term for the eastern concept of Bodhisattva. Dragonnas (talk) 02:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

personal attacks

were being neutral here, innit, so its best to argue in a senseble manner and DONT insult ppl from either side for now, altough i do feel like lashing out at free tibet activists, this is not the place to do it Btzkillerv (talk) 20:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Reincarnations

In section history it is said: "Sonam Gyatso was an Abbot at the Drepung Monastery who was widely considered one of the most eminent lama of his time. Although Sonam Gyatso became the first lama to hold the title "Dalai Lama" as described above, as he was the third member of his lineage he became known as the "Third Dalai Lama." The previous two titles were conferred posthumously upon his earlier incarnations." Is it true that the lineage being talked about here is the lineage of Abbots at the Drepung Monastery?

Austerlitz -- 88.72.13.89 (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Not all of them. The first Dalai Lama founded Tashilhünpo. I think that the next few Dalai Lamas were prominent at Drepung, up until they became political figures. I don't know if any of them other that Sönam Gyatso had the title of abbot—actually, I'm not sure whether there is such a position at Drepung. I suppose there probably was in the 16th century.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 22:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

What reincarnation? The present dalai lama has stated that he still talks to his previous incarnation in his dreams!!! 86.136.143.199 (talk) 02:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

how old is he?

717.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 02:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Who has the authority to commission a newly incarnated Dalai Lama

Is it true that throughout history every newly incarnated Dailai Lama had to be certified by Chinese courts (Yuan, Ming, and Qin). Was 14th Dalai Lama himself commissioned by the national government of the Republic of China in 1933? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.58.66.76 (talk) 15:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't think commissioned is the right word, but the authorities in Beijing certainly had to approve or rubber-stamp the appointee. 86.136.143.199 (talk) 03:38, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Images

I would like to know why images 1 , 8 , 9 & 12 are identical ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Satanoid (talk • contribs) 14:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Did any of the Dalai Lamas understand Chinese?

Did any of the Dalai Lamas understand Chinese? 86.136.143.199 (talk) 03:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)