Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Australia task force

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Religious affiliation

A couple of ip editors have been adding Category:Australian Muslims to Turkish-Australian footballers including Ufuk Talay, Selin Kuralay and Tolgay Özbey. No reference to them being Muslim is included in these articles let alone a reference. Could people keep an eye out for this... The Hack 01:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

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User 60.224.0.121 and football (soccer) edits

Over the past week this user has modified a large number of club and player pages to have the lead line change from either "Australian football player" or "Australian association football player" to "Australian football (soccer) player"

I have no real strong opinion on the name of the sport, but I think having "football (soccer)" looks untidy in the lead sentence and goes against consistency with the rest of the project. "football player" is consistent with the rest of the articles, and the link to the association football article disambiguates the term.

The user claims consensus for all pages based on a three year old conversation by 3 people on the name/title of the Socceroos article so I think having some additional discussion here would be good.

You can see the list of edits by the user here. Camw (talk) 00:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• It has been agreed on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia_national_football_(soccer)_team#Football_is_more_than_one_game.2Fcode. Why do you insist on trying to change something that was already agreed on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.0.121 (talk) 00:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Because that discussion is 3 years old and had input from 3 people. Furthermore the linked page is not discussing the opening sentence on player pages, it is specific to the national team. I insist on discussing the change because it is right to do so. Can you expand on why you think this change should be made? Camw (talk) 00:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Once something has been discussed does not mean it can never be discussed again, it's not like it was a month or even a year ago that it was "agreed on". Consensus can change. You are changing articles and refusing to discuss further which seems pretty disruptive to me. It would be a show of good faith if you would stop making the changes until we have talked about it more? Camw (talk) 00:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't this suffice? - Dudesleeper / Talk 00:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• That depends if we can agree on what it should be called. The head body of the sport in Australia and the head state bodies have football as the main part of their name, the AOC and the AIS for a start call the sport football. 60.224.0.121 doesn't seem willing to discuss which is going to make this difficult. Camw (talk) 01:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• What do people think about "association football player" as a compromise? Association football is the name of the main article on the sport. I'm more concerned about consistency than the actual name and if this editing pattern continues we'll have 45% of the players with "football" and 45% with "football (soccer)" and the others with something else again Camw (talk) 01:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

No, that was tried a few years ago, but it was not agreed on. See here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia_national_football_(soccer)_team#Page_move —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.0.121 (talk) 02:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Here are some more official surveys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia_national_football_(soccer)_team#Requested_move —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.0.121 (talk) 02:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• That section is for a proposed title change for the national team article, it doesn't cover descriptions of players or teams within the article, nor can I see that it mentions association football at all. Camw (talk) 05:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

So it was tried a couple of years ago, that isn't a good reason not to have another discussion. Camw (talk) 03:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

For pete's sake, I said you can discuss it all you want. But try looking at the reasons it was not passed the first time60.224.0.121 (talk) 03:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The argument seems to be that if we call australian football players, "australian football players". That we will have to go through every AFL player and change it to australian rules football players. I dont see it like that at all. I dont intend to edit one AFL page. Portillo (talk) 07:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm still being incredibly outlandish by following the manual of style. UK-centric articles are being reverted to "footballer"/"football player". I'd like to (not true, really) bend the rules for one user, but, like I said, that's not true. - Dudesleeper / Talk 11:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sigh.

The decision to use "football (soccer)" was done years ago - when the main article for the sport was football (soccer). It was moved to association football some time ago (maybe 18-24 months?). I wasn't aware the change was under discussion until it happened (neither were other prominent Aus football editors, since they would have posted on WikiProject talk pages, noticeboards, and the like) and as such none of us had any say in it.

I can't speak for the others, but IMO we had just gotten most of the articles into a stable state and I wasn't keen on stirring things up by mass editing them all again. I have generally used "association football" when creating or cleaning up articles - since that is (a) non ambiguous (b) consistent with the name of the main article (c) doesn't call it "soccer" and (d) doesn't call it "football". Football (soccer) is not perfect but acceptable, but should be changed when updating articles. I'm baffled as to how someone would think that Association football (soccer) is a good idea - it is long winded, contains unnecessary disambiguation, repetitive, and looks ugly. It is not a compromise - "Association football" itself is the compromise.

User:60.224.0.121, if you think this is wrong, going and mass editing a heap of articles is NOT the way to do it. Discuss it first. If I sound cynical about your intentions, well, I have had several years of IP's showing up, claiming they know all the naming conventions, making a mess, causing arguments and then leaving. Repeat ad nauseum with another IP. -- Chuq (talk) 23:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Chuq, I think that you are right that "association football" is a good compromise as it is the name of the main article on the sport and it disambiguates the subject sufficiently from other football codes. Camw (talk) 23:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

While I am sympathetic to people calling the game "football" in everyday speech, because that is the name many Australian soccer fans (but not necessarily a majority) are used to calling it, IMO banning the word soccer from articles that relate primarily to Australian is simple/narrow minded and ideological (in the sense that it has nothing to with society as it actually exists). I don't see why speakers of Australian English, whether they are from Manly, Geelong, Darwin or Kalgoorlie, when they use Wikipedia, should be baffled by the name "Association football".

BTW, this is a classic tail wagging the dog issue, in that it results from a campaign by a handful of soccer officials and sports bureaucrats, who are either unaware of the normal usages of Australian English – or don't care. When the word "soccer" is no longer used by most of the population of Australia, then it should be dropped from the name of Australian soccer articles. Grant | Talk 13:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

From Saturday's Herald Sun:

KS: Andrew, how do we stop Frank Lowy and Ben Buckley from calling soccer “football”, [when] they still manage to call the national team the Socceroos?

AD: There were 87,000 people at the MCG on Thursday and a few million watching on television who know what footy is.

Not to mention tens of thousands at Subiaco Oval, Perth or Football Park in Adelaide.

Then there is the second most popular kind of football in Australia, rugby league, played at Sydney Football Stadium, and Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane. Grant | Talk 03:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

• Those quotes are fine I guess, but I don't really see the relevance to articles about football/soccer as we aren't talking about AFL or Rugby League or any claim to a name. As linked above, the sport is now called football by the governing sports bodies and the AIS and AOC for example as well as some media (SMH is my local example but I'm sure there are others). How exactly do you judge when a term is "no longer used by most of the population of Australia", surely it will be difficult/impossible in a non anecdotal way. Anyway, if football (soccer) is determined to be the best term then I have no problem with that, as long as there is some agreement that it will be consistent across all relevant articles and if we can work out what articles would come under the scope of the term (as an example, Tim Cahill, an article on an Australian player in a foreign league or Charlie Miller a Scottish player who has spent most of his career overseas and played one season so far here) - if we have some guidelines that people can agree on then hopefully editing wars can be avoided. Camw (talk) 08:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I propose if they are forein players playing the the A-League association football term is ok, but if they are Australian players (regardless where they are playing)they should be refferred to as either football (soccer) players or association football (soccer) players 60.224.4.25 (talk) 00:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

All the federations have changed there names to football.

"FFA is a federation of whom the state federations are constituent members. These include a governing body for each state (Football Federation Victoria, Capital Football (Australian Capital Territory), Football Federation Northern Territory, Football Queensland, Football Federation of South Australia, Football West (Western Australia) and Football Federation Tasmania), except New South Wales which has two: Football NSW in the central and southern parts of the state, and Northern New South Wales Football in northern New South Wales. Football NSW is by far the largest football association in Australia." Portillo (talk) 10:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Which is all very well, Portillo, but it has nothing to do with what the majority of Australians call the game, i.e. "soccer".

Camw asks, "How exactly do you judge when a term is 'no longer used by most of the population of Australia', surely it will be difficult/impossible in a non anecdotal way."

The two major authorities on Australian English are the Macquarie Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionary of Australian English. The ODAE is irrelevant as it dodges the issue of "football", saying something along the lines of the word referring to several different games. The Macquarie says that "football" refers primarily to Australian rules and rugby league, but this may change as a result of the FFA's policy. As in, it hasn't yet. Grant | Talk 10:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

This isn't an Australian-only site. It is an international site. If someone doesn't know what association football means, and can't guess, and the references to A-League/Socceroos/clubs in Europe/whatever don't give it away - they can always click on the name and be taken to the article on Association football and find out in an instant! The "most people don't call it football" argument has be used before and refuted, this search shows that I have done this at least three times before, one of them on your own talk page. I'm sick of wasting time by repeating myself. -- Chuq (talk) 11:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

So what was the outcome when you reported it to the Wikipedia admins? Portillo (talk) 06:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

There was no interest/response I believe. I let it go because the IP at least started talking about it. Why the IP wants to spend so much time pushing articles sideways that are of no interest to them I don't know. Camw (talk) 09:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

So whats the consensus? Portillo (talk) 08:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The user is still making the changes - Special:Contributions/60.224.2.159. I can't see a clear consensus above, maybe someone else can. If that doesn't work then if someone can bring it up at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment then that might have to be the way forward, I just don't have time to do it at the moment. It's aggravating that this editor wastes so much time that could be spent improving areas that they are actually have some interest in. Camw (talk) 11:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

This is the second time you have done this Camw. You claimed I am making changes, but also fail to mention that I am simply reverting edits by User:timsdad. Why was he not mentioned when he changed them back to what you think they should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.2.159 (talk) 23:15, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

You drop out of the conversation when you don't get your specific way, and just go back to doing what you were doing. You haven't contributed to this conversation other than to try to WP:Canvass some known supporters of your viewpoint to discuss it for you. You can see above that not a single person has suggested "association football (soccer)" as a compromise (not even you) and yet you continue to put it into articles over and over. Association football (soccer) is an even worse idea than football (soccer) in terms of clarity, I have to start to wonder if you are just doing this because you know it will annoy other people? If not, tell me the specific reason that what you are doing is of any benefit to the encyclopedia/project? Camw (talk) 23:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed your canvassing at the Wiki Project for Rugby League, what do they have to do with this subject? If I were making trivial and disruptive edits on a large number of articles on Rugby League (and I happened to save a couple of their articles that were up for deletion just the other day, so don't assume I have anything against them or the sport) that their project did not agree with, I would not come running here because this Project isn't related to the problem/discussion at hand. Why not try your hand at improving some articles, it would probably be a better feeling than to be involved in edit warring that accomplishes nothing. Camw (talk) 23:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If it came down to a choice between association football (soccer) and football (soccer) I would go for the latter as it concisely covers the two most common names for the sport. Very few people when they see football (soccer) are still going to be wondering which sport is being referred to. In any case hasn't this already reached some sort of consensus? The Hack 00:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Can you outline what you think the consensus is leaning toward as I don't see anything clear above. If we manage to select something we should plan to change all articles under our scope (the suggestion above is to have foreign players in the A-League not changed, but Australian players and articles changed, are people satisfied with this proposal?). Camw (talk) 01:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll just say this has been a war on many fronts.[1] As long as association football (soccer) isn't the result I'll be reasonably happy.The Hack 02:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the compromise is football (soccer). Football doesnt deserve to be the only sport in australia called football ...lol... Portillo (talk) 04:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Looks like the anon's dropped out of the discussion again and continued to change it to "association football (soccer)". --timsdad ^(talk) 08:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

"association football (soccer)" is the least desirable out of any options in my opinion. It is redundant and clumsy. Nobody has suggested it as a good idea as far as I can see and it really seems to be bordering on bad faith to keep pushing this option. If the editor responsible would actually get involved in the discussion I hope that they would see that. There is absolutely no consensus to use "association football (soccer)". Camw (talk) 11:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

You can call it canvassing, but you started this in a soccer discussion. I was making sure all people made got their say not just soccer fans. I agree to compromise with portillo, football (soccer) is much better than association football (soccer). I'm happy with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.2.159 (talk) 13:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It is canvassing, and I started the discussion in the area that actually works on improving the articles in question. Nobody has come across to enter the discussion from your canvassing, maybe they are too busy actually working constructively on improving articles in their area of interest. Camw (talk) 14:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

No its not. Not one non-soccer fan would ever have come in here if not for my asking ie: Grant. You would have only have had soccer fans in here, and your idea on the subject would have won hands down. From what I have read, football (soccer) is acceptable to me, Portillio and the hack. So that seems fair to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.2.159 (talk) 23:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

At least you are somewhat discussing it now, although you seem only willing to read comments that agree with what you want. If I wanted to change the lead line of AFL articles to X is an Australian Rules Football (AFL) player, you could be sure that the people actually interested in discussing the changes would be the AFL project and they would be the best people to decide on a change. Anyway, it looks like that might be as close as we'll get to something people might agree on, instead of changing 5-6 articles at a time, how about helping to compile a list of where it isn't consistent so that it can be done cleanly and in one automated hit? Or would that somehow not suit you and you'd prefer to keep getting blocked for edit warring? Camw (talk) 03:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

What is wrong with using "association football"? The use of descriptive brackets in the first sentence of pretty much all Aus association football articles is unsightly to say the least. Why would association football be confusing? Is there real world Australian consensus on calling this type of footy by the name of soccer? Either way, "association football" represents a decent compromise. Why is "association football" being dismissed as an option? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 04:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

There was some discussion about this option above but it didn't really gain momentum. If you want to push for that then I think it is the best option as well. Camw (talk) 05:20, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The vast majority of people call the sport either football or soccer. To introduce a third choice identifier confuses the matter even further.The Hack 05:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll be happy with either "football", "association football" and as a last choice "football (soccer)". For foreigners "football". Portillo (talk) 11:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The Hack:- The problem is that football is considered ambiguous in the Australian variant of English. Personally I wouldn't have a problem calling both Aussie rules and soccer players as "footballers" because I think readers are intelligent enough to notice the difference. However, in lieu of a need for 'specifiers' "association football" is very simplistic and is as easily understood as the equally well established "aussie rules football" and "rugby football". I am not an Australian native so I cannot comment on what is or isn't in use: So my options would be

• (1) if "soccer" is in widespread and current usage, use that
• (2) if not, use the unambiguous "association football".

Beyond that, I really don't see a need for "football (soccer)" as this is hedging our bets (using both terms) in the most ugly of ways. Maybe this is extremely pedantic but you all know that 'soccer' is derived from 'association', right? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 14:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

This was the reason I brought this discussion up in the first place, I thought that football (soccer) is a clumsy way to introduce the subject. As a guess, soccer is the widely used term among people who don't follow the sport. The links posted above though show a move away from Soccer to Football by the people running the sport (Football Federation Australia, Football NSW, Football Federation Victoria etc) and the other major sporting authorities (Australian Institute of Sport, Australian Olympic Committee). I tried to use the "association football" being the origin of the term soccer argument with the IP early on but was promptly ignored. Camw (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The point is that "Association football"is virtually unknown, whereas "soccer" is well-known and unambiguous. Moreover, no-one objected to the word soccer until about 10 years ago. It was the name used by every single soccer club and federation in Australia. FWIW I think this will actually harm soccer in the long run, because Australians hate pretension, arrogance and being told how to behave (or talk). And they are used to the word soccer. As in Socceroos. Grant | Talk 17:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

So do you think "soccer" is the best idea? It's also the choice that creates the least headaches as it's unambiguous and widely understood, even though some Anglo-centric editors may wrongly dismiss it as an "Americanism". Can we get input from another Australian editor about this? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes of course soccer was used 10 years ago, why would that mean that we have to use soccer here? When the A-League was launched, soccer became football. Portillo (talk) 22:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I see that the official bodies have been renamed to "football" too. If soccer is a disputed/outdated term then that leaves us with option (2) Association football. Any takers for association football? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

My order of preference would be: "association football" then "football (soccer)" - other options I'd be fairly strongly against. Association football is the title of the page describing the game itself on Wikipedia, that was the compromise that people thought would be appropriate in that case and it seems to be working reasonably well. If I find a term that I'm not familiar with on a wikipedia page then I'll click through to the article linked to and from then on I'll know what that term means if I see it again, I'm sure others can do the same if they haven't encountered "association football" previously and can't deduce it from the context of the page itself? Camw (talk) 00:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I've played and supported the round ball game since I was a kid and have never encountered anyone seriously calling the game association football - it's either been football or soccer.The Hack 06:02, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

"Football" won't be acceptable to those outside this project I'm certain. "Soccer" is likely to generate more edit wars than it solves. Would "football (soccer)" be your preference then? Camw (talk) 07:32, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Your sarcastic smart alec comments mean nothing to me camw60.224.2.159 (talk) 00:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

60.224.2.159:- What comment is "smart alec" here? No offence, but this statement is neither pertinent nor intelligible to the discussion. I recommend that you state your point of view, and your reasons for arrival at this view, or you will simply be interpreted as irrelevant white noise.

The Hack:- I would never suggest that people would say that they had gone to a "association football match", but that is not the point. I'm suggesting using "association football" on its first instance only and "football/footballer" thereafter as a disambiguation compromise. Wikipedia is read by all, some of who will not concur with you regarding with what "football" is (there are numerous codes). Is saying "association football" in the first instance really that disagreeable? (e.g. more so than "soccer" or "football (soccer)"). This discussion hasn't been whipped out of thin air, but rather by the fact that a significant proportion of Australians refer to a different sport in terms of what "football" signifies. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 01:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

"Or would that somehow not suit you and you'd prefer to keep getting blocked for edit warring?" 60.224.2.159 (talk) 03:45, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Notability

At what point does an Australian footballer become notable from a footballing point of view? Is it enough to have played NSL/A-League. The Hack 01:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Playing an A-League game does confer notability as the league is fully professional. The guidelines for athletes says "People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport" so the A-League qualifies. Was the NSL professional or semi-professional? I think it was semi-pro, so if true players would need to either have played at senior or olympic international level, played in a different professional league or to meet the more stringent notability criteria of having "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Camw (talk) 01:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

There were pro players and semi-pro players in the NSL, and there were eras where clubs went professional, which complicates this issue greatly. At the very least, award winners, leading goalsscorers and such from the NSL should be included, since even the most obscure A-League player gets a mention. Blackmissionary (talk) 11:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

If the broad notability guidelines can be satisfied (and award winners, leading goalscorers etc should be okay as long as the reliable sources can be found) then an article is definitely appropriate. I've been meaning to try to start articles on the large number of NSL players that played for the Socceroos and don't have articles yet, but have been busy with other tasks. Camw (talk) 11:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

So a player like Mitchell Johnson (soccer) (assuming he hasn't yet played in the ACL) isn't notable? The Hack 12:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Without looking further for sources and if Newcastle United weren't fully professional during the time he played for them he would be borderline and I'd be leaning toward him not being notable. If more articles like this are around then that would make a strong case for inclusion under the significant coverage criteria. The other sources in the article only contain brief coverage of him. Camw (talk) 18:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Judging by your previous comments and looking at the notability guidelines he would have to have played in a fully pro league, which the NSL was at no point. When I created the article I was only able to find three articles where he was the primary focus. I figured that having played NSL, being the highest level in this country, would have sufficed.The Hack 05:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)