Talk:Joseph (Genesis)

The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:05, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Some have suggested a connection between figures imhotep (imtoteph) and Joseph. But this of course this is still debated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anaccuratesource (talk • contribs) 01:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

"Palestine?" "Israel"? or "Canaan"

Someone has "corrected" "Palestine" by substituting "Land of Israel". Does a historically correct geographical designation even matter in this context? If so isn't it "Canaan"? Since it's all legendary lore anyway, there's some relevant text in the [Book of Jubilees] that might be quoted also. --Wetman 10:27, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I'd say Canaan, since no parts of Canaan had actually be conquered by Israelites yet. - Gilgamesh 11:13, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

In the context of the Genesis narrative, the land is already called Israel in Genesis 34:7. (The term Israel is understood to mean the entire land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel, while Canaan seems to denote only the part lying between the Mediterranean and the Jordan.) Either Israel or Canaan would be consistent with the narrative, "Palestine" is just plain out of place for Genesis. Kuratowski's Ghost 11:28, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Moving old bibliography here

Bibliography: Qur'an, sura xii., and its commentators, Baidawi,Zamakhshari,?abari, and others. D'Herbelot, Bibliothèque Orientale,iii. 368 et seq., Paris, 1789. A. Geiger,Was Hat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume Aufgenommen? Bonn, 1833 ;Schlechta-Wssehrd,Aus Firdusi's "Yussuf und Suleicha," in Z. D. M. G. xli. G. Weil,Biblical Legends of the Mussulmans, Eng. transl., New York, 1846. G. M. W.

In addition to the literature cited above, see the commentaries of Dillmann and Gunkel on Genesis, and Driver in Hogarth, Authority and Archaeology, pp. 46-54. E. G. H. G. A. B.

Adolf Kurrein, Traum und Wahrheit, Lebensbild Josephs nach der Agada, Regensburg, 1887.S. S. M. Sel.

Question of scope

The bulk of this article deals with the rabbinical view and sources of Joseph's story. Would it be more appropriate to move this to a separate article called: "Joseph in the Rabbinical tradition"? It would probably have to be created. But this would reduce the size of the article and also move the material to a more appropriate place (although I admit the 19th century nature of the English is somewhat offputting for modern readers; I'm just editing and cleaning it up).User:FeanorStar7

hr:User:Joy meta:User:Joy

Critcal View

can we get this split up? it should'nt be so lnog without even a paragraph break. it's daunting to look at for readers passing by --arctic 17:38, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Timeframe

The article suggests that Joseph was in Egypt circa 1600 B.C.E. However, that is not an established fact, but is only conjecture.

There are two competing arguments: an Early Exodus argument and a Late Exodus argument. There are evidences and positions on both sides that are plausible and have merit. The 1600 B.C.E. date in this article would lead a reader to conclude that the Late Exodus theory has been proven or established beyond all doubt. This is simply not the case.

It would be better to say that the range of Joseph's possible stay in Egypt could be anywhere from 1950 B.C.E. to 1600 B.C.E. Mormonchess 18:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be better to say 1950 BCE to 1350 BCE, as there is evidence for any of these dates. mikey 00:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the section headed "Timeframe". My reason is simply that the same subject (i.e. the historicity of the Joseph narrative) is addressed at greater length in the "Critical view" section. That section is also far more scholarly - it quotes multpile sources, and and appears to give a balanced and comprehensive overview. PiCo 03:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

An editor evidently didn't like the way I handled this. So I tried to take the best material from the "Timeframe" section and blend it into the "Critical View" section, avoiding retition and keeping a coherent structure. I also renamed the section "Historicity", in keeping with the practice in othe articles on similar OT characters. Please dicuss here if you want to make more major changes - make the changes, but tell your reasons. Thanks. PiCo 05:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

it would be best still to say "mythical" as there is no extra-biblical proof for any of it. See Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman's Bible Unearthed. There is no archeological nor documentary evidence for anything to do with the entire Exodus story. It's just made up crap that has poisoned the weak minded for thousands of years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.252.202.204 (talk) 03:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

"Hebrew Bible"?

What's a Hebrew Bible? Why is he mentioned as being in the "Hebrew Bible", whatever that is, and not in the Old Testament? User:Zoe|(talk) 23:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The term Hebrew Bible or the Hebrew Canon is preferable as it does not identify the covenant God made with the Jews as being "Old" as opposed to the covenant made with Christians as being "New." chazman 00:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Patriarch

I believe that Patriarch would be a better name for the article: Joseph (patriarch) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.225.158.237 (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

jesus the saviour

jesus is our saviour there is no doubt about that because he died for us —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.129.34.104 (talk) 08:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Your comment above lack NPOV, in my opinion, and doesn't tell us much about the page we're trying to work on. Do you have any ideas for adding to "The Christian View" part of the page? I added the bit comparing this OT story to the NT one of Jesus, and am thinking of adding the monetary value noted in each, in that Joseph was "sold" for 20 shekels, while Jesus was "sold out" for 30 "pieces of silver/shekels", denoting their relative importance in the Yahwist pantheon, although I won't call it that in the article. Any other objections or ideas on this proposal? I'm sorry I didn't check here before making the original addition, although I see it's been promoted to the top of the section and added to well, so no harm done. Shamanchill (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

References

is there any reason why "ref name" isn't used?? Chensiyuan 09:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Historicity

Someone put a claim that Joseph is not historical since this is rejected by even advocates of biblical criticism i have removed this--Java7837 17:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

No it isn't. Why would you remove it? Israel Finkelstein, Neil Silberman, Ze'ev Herzog and William G. Dever all deny the historicity of Exodus. For that matter, the caravan passage mentions camels. They weren't even domesticated at the dates mentioned above. I'm guessing that you have a theological reason to try to edit the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slagathor (talk • contribs) 03:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Egyptian Name

Should we include what many historians believe to be his Egyptian name somewhere in the article?? --Promus Kaa 18:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Slavery template?

Why is the slavery template on this page? I know Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery, but that doesn't mean learning about him will give people a better understanding of slavery. Someone the Person (talk) 21:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It does seem a bit odd. I see no reason not to remove it, as the template's talk doesn't really give any guidance on where it should and should not be used. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. Carl.bunderson (talk) 01:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

20 shekels rationale

Presumably this is quoted from a scholarly source. I would like to point out that Joseph's brothers were "wholesaling" him to "retailers" who intended to sell him later and should have therefore gotten considerably less than "market." Student7 (talk) 02:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

José.jpg

This file on the top right seems to contain a faulty transcription, as the letters are "yud", "waw", "tsamech" and "feh"; which would be transcribed as j/ywsf, or more accurately, Yosef. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.191.236 (talk) 12:29, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is this even here?
This emblem (and all the corresponding emblems that are found on each Wiki page of Joseph's 11 brothers) should be removed. This emblem (and the other ones mentioned) have no historical connection to Joseph and its only purpose is decorative (not appropriate for Wikipedia). The language is also likewise inappropriate as this appears to be in Spanish (or closely related to it). Unless someone can demonstrate a good reason why we should keep these on these pages, I say we remove them. 71.196.135.148 (talk) 19:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Literary Attributes

Whatever the significance of these narratives may be in the context of religious doctrine or historical value, they at least display skillful authorship. For example, a Classic Story that has been almost synonymous with the interpretation of dreams very likely also wields the metaphor skillfully.

For instance, this section of Genesis from Jacob's marriage to Tamar to Joseph all use the device of cloaking and uncloaking. The technique of having the identities of the characters concealed and then revealed repeatedly is an unmistakable literary theme. The cloak becomes the metaphor, perhaps, of how love, intellect and potential are often camouflaged by superficial appearances.

Some of the other (biblical) writings that use symbolisms (dreams and visions) have the main character or author portrayed as a prisoner (Joseph), captive (Daniel) or exile (Ezekiel and John(Patmos)). The extensive use of symbols may have protected the authors from their captors. The prophecies were open to interpretation, thus the interpreter could not be accused of being seditious. Persons in such dangerous circumstances had to be skillful editors.

This is not intended to diminish the doctrinal value of the text, .....au contraire mes amies...., but rather to help focus on the ingenious authorship of the passages.

I hope proper WIKI-etiquette is such that this section will not be removed without at least a brief explanation. My previous contribution was unceremoniously deleted....pity.[23:49, 16 December 2008 Pete318 (Talk | contrib.) (10,862 bytes) (→Context and Structure of the Narrative]

Pete318 (talk) 18:56, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Joseph commodity trader

Many of us trade Commodities. Joseph was the greatest commodity trader of all time. I could not care less if he wore a Technicolor cloak. We will be making a reference to him in futures history. There needs to be some distinction as to who he is and what he did that was significant. If it was not for Joseph’s commodity trading there would probably be no land surveying, or property tax. So how are we going to know what Joseph it is if you continue to hide him in a hole in the desert.

---o0o---

Accordingly he was sent for, and he interpreted Pharaoh's dream as foretelling that seven years of abundance would be followed by seven years of famine and advised the king to appoint some able man to store the surplus grain during the period of abundance. (Gen. xli. 1-52).

During the seven years of abundance Joseph amassed for the king a great supply of corn, which he sold to both Egyptians and foreigners (Gen. xli. 48-49, 54-57).

Joseph (Hebrew Bible)

He appeared before Pharaoh and told him in the name of God that the dreams forecasted seven years of plentiful crops followed by seven years of famine. He advised Pharaoh to make a wise man commissioner over the land with overseers to gather and store food from the seven years of abundance to save for the years of scarcity.

Joseph traveled throughout Egypt, gathering and storing enormous amounts of grain from each city. [1]

According to Joseph's interpretation, there were to be seven years of plenty in Egypt, followed by seven years of famine. Joseph was able to advise the Pharaoh on how to prepare for the famine and as a result gained the favour of the Pharaoh who promoted him to Prime Minister.

During the famine Joseph had to make key decisions. His acquisition of grain provisions enabled Egypt to withstand and survive the famine. [2]

“Just as Joseph had predicted seven years of abundant harvest were followed by seven years without any rain, and there was great famine throughout all of the land of Egypt and in all of the countries nearby. The land where Israel and Joseph's eleven brothers lived also had no rain and great famine until there was nothing left to eat.

Joseph sold grain to the people of Egypt until they had no more money to buy grain. Then the people sold through Joseph to Pharoah all of their lands so that they could have grain to eat. Then the people sold themselves and their children as slaves to Pharoah so that they could eat. Finally Pharoah owned all of the money, land and people in Egypt except for the money and lands of the Egyptian priests who always received free food from Pharoah according to their previous agreement. “ [3]

Joseph was ruler and governor of all the land. [4]

He predicted 7 years of good harvest followed by 7 years of famine. Joseph recommended that Egypt make great stores of food to prepare for the famine. [5]

What part of these is not predicting and betting everything on the future value of commodities?

=====Genesis 41=====

33 Now therefore let Pharaoh look out a man discreet and wise, and set him over the land of Egypt. 34 Let Pharaoh do this, and let him appoint officers over the land, and take up the fifth part of the land of Egypt in the seven plenteous years. 35 And let them gather all the food of those good years that come, and lay up corn under the hand of Pharaoh, and let them keep food in the cities. 36 And that food shall be for store to the land against the seven years of famine, which shall be in the land of Egypt; that the land perish not through the famine.

41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.

And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt. 46 And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt. 47 And in the seven plenteous years the earth brought forth by handfuls. 48 And he gathered up all the food of the seven years, which were in the land of Egypt, and laid up the food in the cities: the food of the field, which was round about every city, laid he up in the same. 49 And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number.

53 And the seven years of plenteousness, that was in the land of Egypt, were ended. 54 And the seven years of dearth began to come, according as Joseph had said: and the dearth was in all lands; but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. 55 And when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread: and Pharaoh said unto all the Egyptians, Go unto Joseph; what he saith to you, do. 56 And the famine was over all the face of the earth: and Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.

57 And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn; because that the famine was so sore in all lands. [6]

• Joseph, son of Jacob, biblical commodities Trader who cornered the grain market. Joseph’s gained control of all the money, land and people in Egypt.

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 23:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Re-post

Reposted it as suggested. I figured if they wanted to ignore the “patron saint of commodity traders,” and cover it up with some holier than thou stuff, that was there business. It tells more about the posters than it does about Joseph.

“As a ruler, Joseph changed the system of land-tenure in Egypt. The famine being severe, the people first expended all their money in the purchase of corn, then they sold their cattle, and finally gave up their land. Thus all the cultivated land in Egypt, except that of the priests, became the property of the crown, and the people farmed it for the king, giving him one-fifth of the produce (Gen. xlvii. 14-26).”

I had my say on the talk page. But it seems to me somebody should make a reference to him “cornering the market in grain and making everybody slaves.”

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 00:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

"Goldtrader" makes a good point, eventually. The ability to stockpile or store commodities is a major tactic in making a profit. If the stockpiles are large enough, the investor may actually influence the price. However stockpiles are risky projects especially with perishables. If the Egyptians had lost the grain due to rot, investation or corruption Joseph and his predictions would have been in trouble. Even if the years of prosperity had continued (beyond seven) the "price" of old grain would have plummeted and Pharoah would have been ridiculed.

Why did Pharoah think the interpretation reasonable? Maybe he was a proponet of surplus financing, i.e. storing some profit for the inevitable cylical changes in circumstances.

As far a "making the people slaves".....slavery was not uncommon in that time. If there was a silver lining in the tragedy, at least the people had a contract with Pharoah. Instead of a collection of farms and transient nomads, Pharoah now had an obligation to protect "his" people and "his" land. Of course, a later corrupt Pharoah abused his power over the residents of Egypt, which lead to that king's downfall.

Getting back to the literary/spiritual context..... The dream discussed cattle coming up "out of the River". The "river" being the Nile was the centre of Egypt economically and spiritually:

".....The Nile played a major role in politics and social life. The pharaoh would supposedly flood the Nile, and in return for the life-giving water and crops, the peasants would cultivate the fertile soil and send a portion of the resources they had reaped to the Pharaoh. He or she would in turn use it for the well-being of Egyptian society.

The Nile was a source of spiritual dimension. The Nile was so significant to the lifestyle of the Egyptians, that they created a god dedicated to the welfare of the Nile’s annual inundation. The god’s name was Hapy, and both he and the pharaoh were thought to control the flooding of the Nile River. Also, the Nile was considered as a causeway from life to death and afterlife. The east was thought of as a place of birth and growth, and the west was considered the place of death, as the god Ra, the sun, underwent birth, death, and resurrection each time he crossed the sky. Thus, all tombs were located west of the Nile, because the Egyptians believed that in order to enter the afterlife, they must be buried on the side that symbolized death......."[7]

The Hebrew "deity", perhaps symbolized by "the east wind" would eventally challenge Egypt until the oppression of both Hebrew and Egyptian slaves/serfs ceased(?).

Interesting perspective.

Pete318 (talk) 20:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"The famine being severe, the people first expended all their money in the purchase of corn..." Ouch! There was no money in Egypt until the Greeks arrived, c.300 BC. PiCo (talk) 11:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I moved the comment by PiCo after my Feb 24/09 signing. With respect to the content..... one cannot take the translation of "corn" literally either, the translators probably meant the wider meaning of "corn", being cereal grains. PiCo offers no reference to his claim about "money", nor any insight into the translation of the original words.

Nevertheless an interesting perspective is found in the article "Currency". Specifically: ".....The origin of currency is the creation of a circulating medium of exchange based on a unit of account which quickly becomes a store of value. Currency evolved from two basic innovations: the use of counters to assure that shipments arrived with the same goods that were shipped, and later with the use of silver ingots to represent stored value in the form of grain.[citation needed] Both of these developments had occurred by 2000 BC. Originally money was a form of receipting grain stored in temple granaries in Sumer in ancient Mesopotamia, then Ancient Egypt....."[8]

This is very interesting. If the "money" was actually a system of receipts that the Pharaoh gave to the farmers when they delivered their grain for storage, then their "money" was not expended but rather their savings (commodity) were exhausted. If PiCo is correct then the lack of proper currency in Egypt may have lead to trading of land for other grain stored.

Pete318 (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Copy-editing tag

I added the {{copy-edit}} tag to this article today for the following reasons:

• The introduction is too long, and expands on subject matter rather than simply introducing the article as a whole.
• The arrangement of major and subsidiary headings is uneven - for example the sections Imprisonment, Viceroy of Egpyt and Revelation to brothers, in contrast to the major section Blessing.
• The writing style varies between straight facts, commentary and supposition. There is a personal style in some places, which is inappropriate for an encyclopedic article.
• The content rambles, a bit too long. It is not necessary to paraphrase the entirety of Genesis 30-50.
• Many citations are missing. "Midianites and Ishmaelites are interchangeable terms." Are they? Cite a reference - and not the supposition and argument found in the paragraph which follows that sentence which, being in the introduction, is out of place anyway.

Before I go ahead and re-edit the whole thing myself, I will wait for comments. Darcyj (talk) 07:55, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

"Darcyj" makes a good point, however "commentary and supposition" are valid elements of a discussion. Such exchanges are necessary before any factual or cited entry is inserted into the main article. Although clutter can be annoying.

If the "Repost" section above is parsed, I would suggest leaving (at least) the reference and Wiki link about the significance of the Nile and it's role with ancient Egyptian Deities and religions. It has, in my opinion, no small significance with the context of the western biblical accounts of latter Genesis and early Exodus.

Pete318 (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2009 (UTC)