Talk:Oganesson

Standard Atomic Weight

I've noticed some confusion about the required entry in the standard atomic weight box for many elements. For wholly synthetic radioactive elements, the term is used to describe the mass number for the isotope with the longest known half life. For ununoctium, this is 294 by definition. Many people have used predictions calculated on Apsidium. However, there are serious problems with this: a) it's not real science b) the value provided is a 'significant mass atom' value, which isn't an official term c) the mass number of the most stable isotope for a superheavy element is almost entirely determined by shell effects and in particular the height of the fission barrier. The calculations of this require real maths! In summary, if you want wikipedia to be accurate, do not reference apsidium! Drjezza (talk) 12:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree; similarly, all the "predicted" melting and boiling points and such should be removed unless they refer to a real source such as a journal article and not a website which got them out of who-knows-where. --Itub (talk) 13:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

the critical points are debatable. It will be extremely expensive to find it experimentally and theoretically, several different points are predicted. For example one reference above says that the element might be solid at normal conditions. Nergaal (talk) 17:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a joke to publish boiling points. It is the stupidest thing imaginable. How can one atom have a boiling point? I would like to see this very much removed.Mitchandre (talk) 21:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The boiling point can be estimated using the methods discussed in the references. There is some uncertainty, but it is still serious science (although of theoretical). --Itub (talk) 21:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not serious. What is the boiling point of a single atom of carbon? What phase would it even be? You say there is uncertainty, but that puts it nicely, its illogical to assign bulk properties to single atoms. In the end you do a disservice to science, by ignoring fundamental tenets of atom-at-a-time chemistry just in order to be internally consistent with other elemental wikipedia pages. That being said, I know you are taking a very balanced approach to this, but in this case it's just silly.Mitchandre (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)'

thermodynamical properties refer to A BULK!!!! the boiling temperature is determined THEORETICALLY for a buck of a substance, not for 3 atoms. Nergaal (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

by the way, did you even read the references before you started trolling here? did you read the extrapolated word in from of the value of the boiling point???? if no, please troll on some other page. Nergaal (talk) 02:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Saying you are about to write something silly doesn't excuse the silliness. The bulk argument makes no sense for two reasons, you could never make enough. Even if you could, the intense radiation generated would change any measured macroscopic quantity. Trolling, I guess if you confuse passion for trolling, I suppose. I'm in the field, so it just really irks the rational part of the brain. Mitchandre (talk) 08:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Since you are in the field, why don't you write a letter to the editor of J. Phys. Chem. A criticizing the theoretical paper from which we got the predicted boiling point? Once you get it published, we can quote it on Wikipedia. --Itub (talk) 09:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Suppose you are completely wrong and one of the not-yet-discovered isotopes will have a half-life on the order of days (enough to obtain miligram quantities). Then what is the point of your entire argument? As for the second part of the argument, similarly people could have said about francium that it is so radioactive and reactive that is no point to think about the melting temperature of the pure metal. Yet, francium has a determined melting point, mostly because techniques have allowed to work with both high radioactivity and reactivity - this is even though the actual value of the melting point has little appicability (yet). The latter will not be the case for Uuo. The first one is probably much harder to control, but you should never predict that breakthroughs will not happen. AND, since you completely skipped over this idea it is OBVIOUS you are not from the field (of research). You may work with some radioactive materials, but it is definately not real research. If you are truly passionate, then I suggest you switch to (real) reasearch or at least learn about it. Nergaal (talk) 12:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Let me just say first, I'm not interested in furthering my argument against including the bulk data, I willfully concede this point. Kind of annoying to have to prove credentials but here you go. http://heavyelements.lbl.gov/mitch.htm Remember, even if a longer half-life was found in the couple day region, it would still take months just to make a few atoms of the element; so yes you still can't make enough for bulk measurements that way. Also, due to the nature of heavy element synthesis, something that decays on the order of days would be extraordinarily hard to detect out of normal background in one of these experiments. 2nd point, Radiation affects are a known problem, I'm not sure how the Francium melting point was determined, but I assume it was done with this in mind. Mitchandre (talk) 01:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion for October 16, 2008

I know its quite a ways off, but I think we could nominate this article for Today's FA for October 16, 2008. I just wanted to voice the idea now so hopefully someone will remember to nominate it. Thingg^⊕⊗ 01:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Moscowium?

I've translated the two Russian articles used as references in the main article. The short article clearly indicates that one of the names suggested is "московий" , for which the Cyrillic translates to Moskovium, not Moscowium. The Russians would not use an Anglicised form of the name of their City! In addition, the longer article confirms the suggestion relating to "москA" (Moskva - Moscow) but also indicates the suggestion relating to Flerov i.e Flerovium. Although this name is loosely linked to element 102 it is unlikely banned by IUPAC naming rules.--Drjezza (talk) 20:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This is surprising because this element is a noble gas and (except helium) the noble gases as a rule end in -on, not -ium. Georgia guy (talk) 20:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, why not Moscowion? Because it sounds retarded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.212.134.219 (talk) 19:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

True. However, IUPAC (the people in charge) have stipulated that all new elements must be given names ending in -ium in order to provide consistency. In addition, the name of a new element will come before any chemistry is determined so using group-type endings, like -ine and -on are is permature, especially given the uncertainty in the chemistry that they will actually portray.--Drjezza (talk) 21:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

But k is not proper Latin or English for the c (not "s") sound. The name would be moscovium. As in muscovite. k should be a mid-aspirant, not a stop. -lysdexia 11:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.123.4.199 (talk)

image

I normally wouldn't bother, but since this is a FA, the periodic table image should be redone. The last update used the reduced 800-px thumb rather than the full resolution image. kwami (talk) 22:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

error?

Don't want to change this on an FA I'm not involved with, but "all isotopes with an atomic number above 101 decay radioactively with a halflife under a day" appears to be wrong. Dubnium is said to have an isotope at 37 hrs. kwami (talk) 09:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It has been modified in the past to reflect this, but I think there was a discussion about weather the half life was either 32, 26, or 16 hours. I don't remember exactly what was the resolution to the debate, but it seems like it was 16? Nergaal (talk) 09:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

But the Dubnium isotopes article has not been brought into agreement, unless it's been modified since then. (And the table of isotopes now shows Db in pink. I did that, based on the isotopes article.) kwami (talk) 10:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Heaviest gas?

The article claims that monatomic ununoctium would not be the gas with highest atomic/molecular weight (and thus, highest density), citing uranium hexafluoride as heavier. However, according to Uranium hexafluoride, that compound is solid at standard conditions. Does someone know which statement is correct? Also, what is the heaviest known gas at standard conditions, if not UF6 ?--Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

UF6 is solid under standard conditions, but people often think of it as a gas because it is volatile enough to be handled as a gas in certain industrial processes. If you really want something that is a gas at 1 atm and 298 K, the best I can think of is TeF6, which sublimes at -39 deg C and has a molar mass of 241, which is larger than that of radon. On a hot day, you could think of S2F10, which boils at 30 deg C and has a molar mass of 254, or S2F10O, which boils at 31 deg C and has a molar mass of 270. --Itub (talk) 17:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to Itub for the detailed information! So Uuo 'would be the densest gas at standard conditions, since it has an atomic weigt of 292. (Apparently someone already changed the article accordingly.) I wonder if there is a theoretical limit on the density of gases, which might forbide Uuo to be gaseous...--Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I found a heavier gas! Tungsten hexafluoride has a boiling point of 17 °C and a molar mass of 297.83. I forgot to think about the transition metals when I was looking for heavy hexafluorides, but then, when looking for a lighter analogue of uranium hexafluoride, I remembered that uranium is chemically similar to tungsten (it used to be below tungsten in the periodic table until 1944 or so). --Itub (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a problem

Although the boiling point and critical point given are both sourced, they are to different articles and contradict one another. The critical T and P given would imply a boiling temperature around 260 K by analogy with the other noble gases, whereas its being a solid would require a much higher critical point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.94.28.241 (talk) 18:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If you'd like to make a very, very large donation (see below section on cost) to a major university near you, perhaps they could build a facility that might someday answer this question, and name it after you. Zaphraud (talk) 08:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Cost

The cost of Uuo needs to be found, it is proving rather hard to find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lewismith3 (talk • contribs) 11:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to say because it is not something you can buy. How would you define the cost? As the total worth of the research grants that funded the research that lead to its discovery? In that case it will appear to be a very expensive element indeed (probably hundreds of thousands of dollars per atom!) --Itub (talk) 12:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, it's made in a particle collider.... only a few atoms at a time. And they decay so quickly. The cost is trivial, to say the least.

Blip

There's a mistake at the point in the passage marked [8]. In citing the uncertainty of Uuo's half-life, there are two figures overlaid. --Millar153 (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

If you see 0.89 followed by a small +1.07 with -0.31 directly under it, it renders correctly. The following is rendered using tables and should work in all enviroments:

0.89	+1.07
	–0.31

If it doesn't render like this, there is some problem with wiki formatting or your browser. Which browser are you using? --Vuo (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I have IE7. It still looks the same now (August 2009), with the overlaid superscript. When I copy to Word it looks like 0.89^+1.07_−0.31 with the subscript after the superscript - better, but not perfect.

By the way, sorry about giving you that citation to find the place, should have given you the paragraph heading. Millar153 (talk) 15:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that info, Vuo. I tried inserting that into the Uuo page but it took a new line for the number. (I then left it as it previously was.) Any suggestions? Millar153 (talk) 16:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Right, I footered a bit and came up with the lower uncertainty slightly below and to the right. Here it shows correctly: 0.89^+0.71
_−0.36ms. but it overlayed it on the main page using this. I changed it to 0.89(+0.71,-0.36) as in paragraph 10.--Millar153 (talk) 16:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Trivia Section?

I think it would be neat to ad a trivia section about this element, mainly to state Robert Lassar's wild claim about 118 being a fuel for UFO's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.245.254.168 (talk) 17:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it isn't relevant. There's too much of pointless trivia like this in many articles. Lassar could've used element 188 instead, and it would not be any different with respect to real elements. --Vuo (talk) 09:44, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Reliable source?

Is

D. Trapp. "Origins of the Element Names-Names Constructed from other Words". Retrieved 2008-01-18.

a reliable source for the old rumoured name "dubnadium"? (He doesn't give another source for this.) The author (Mr Trapp) claims to be a scientist, but according to his vita he seems not to have a Ph.D. And even if it is, should we have debunked rumours like this in the article?--Roentgenium111 (talk) 12:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

That's just a personal website, so I don't think it qualifies as a reliable source. --Itub (talk) 02:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, then I'll remove the claim. It's also dubious because of its similarity to the then already existing name "dubnium". --Roentgenium111 (talk) 11:49, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Not a noble gas

Ununoctium is called a noble gas (or implied to be one by providing a link to a noble gases article) in the infobox and several places in the article. This is a) pure speculation and b) probably false, according to the (sourced!) last sentence in the introduction. Thus, I will remove all these mentions unless someone protests. Note that there was a consensus on Talk:Noble gas/Archive 1#Definition of noble gas that the notion of noble gas should be based on chemical properties, not on the group alone. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 12:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I just realised that the so-called source for Uuo being a semimetal does not say this at all; it just says that Uuo is probably not a noble gas (and probably not a gas). I am slightly surprised that this error was not noticed for at least half a year (checking the history) in a featured article. - Still, my above arguments should remain valid. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I've done the changes.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Nucleus stability and isotopes

The first sentence of this section says:

There are no elements with an atomic number above 83 (after bismuth) that have stable isotopes (or measurable decay lifetimes).

I think the part in brackets says the opposite of what it should. All elements above bismuth have measurable decay lifetimes, ie are not fully stable.-gadfium 00:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Possible error

Too specialized for me to determine myself whether this is an error, but the sentence , which may undergo spontaneous fission or alpha decay into , which will undergo spontaneous fission., appears on first blush to contains a redundancy by the last mention of spontaneous fission. If it doesn't then it appears incomplete. It certainly doesn't read well to have the sentence end in the manner it does.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't know the subject in any detail, but did Chemistry at university more than a decade ago, I would assume from the sentence what is meant is that can alpha decay to or it can undergo spontaneous fission. (if it is created) would also be expected to undergo spontaneous fission. Not sure the best way to describe it though. --86.129.6.0 (talk) 18:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)