Talk:British National Party

BNP fun day

FYI; today's News of the World has a video and undercover report of a recent BNP event:

Angel-faced racist aged 12 - Girl burns golly at BNP fun day

which should be mentioned here. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, but please see WP:RS and WP:NPOV before making any substantial changes. The "source" in question is a UK rag. Beganlocal (talk) 20:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm very familiar with both policies, and stand by what I wrote above. Whether the NotW is a "rag" or not (perhaps you can post to a policy prohibiting its use as a reference?); there is video evidence at the URL given. I'm not clear what relevance you think the fact that the NotW is published in the UK has. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 20:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Lol interesting read and video, sadly such things dont even have the ability to shock anymore, each year they just seem to get more and more extreme. Perhaps we could have a section on their "Red white and blue festival", mostly just general stuff about what happens, with a couple examples of the darker side when the nazi uniforms come out. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

BNP fun day- there's an oxymoron for you --Streona (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The day ANY article from the News of the world is used as a source/reference on Wikipedia will be the day I leave and never come back!--Frank Fontaine (talk) 09:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

far left party

The article incorrectly labels the BNP as 'far-right'. However, the positions held by the party and expressed in their manifesto are national socialist policies, and 'far-left' in nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dantubb (talk • contribs) 15:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

You may wish to read the FAQ at the top of the page which deals with this question and the archives where it has been gone over in huge detail. Reliable sources describe the BNP as far right so we use the term, although it is true they have some crazy far left policies aswell. But there are plenty of radical far right policies which can be listed to justify the term and its what most mainstream British media organisations describe them as and im sure putting far left would cause alot more problems than the far right term. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Ideology Addition

After looking at the list of ideologies I think it would be prudent to list Ethno nationalism, since they do fit the description.

-IkonicDeath

No problem with Ethnic nationalism being added, its clear they hold such views, although its already covered by the white nationalism i guess. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Fascism label

The fascism label is clearly a politicially motivated label as only bnp opponents use the term to describe them. And please don't just give me that whole "sorry this question has been answered before" rubbish because it hasn't actually been addressed in an unbias manner. Everyone knows the media generally call them "far-right" but only left-wing and anti-bnp media (such as 'the sun') actually call them "fascist".] The label fascist is purely politically motivated as the bnp do not actually hold policies of extreme authoritarianism but rather many incorrectly label anyone who is far-right as being fascist. And I'm afraid it seems that wikipedia is also no exception to this misconception of ideology. Please compare the BNP's policies against the definition of fascism and I'm confident you'll find that current BNP policies do not match them. Especially as fascism incorporates a "corporatist economic theory" whereas the BNP are known to be quite socialist in their economic policies i.e. supporting small businesses and rejecting large corporations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 (talk • contribs) 04:24, 19 September 2009

The Marxist interpretation of Fascism in the 1920s & 30s was that when the ruling classes were unable to supress the workers' movement by the usual means then they would be suppressed by naked violence offered by the Fascists of Mussolini & Hitler. Obviously this was a clearer label than "National Socialist." There is in this conception no reference to the vicious racism (and an optimism as to the Left's own strength) in Hitler's Nazism nor Griffin's, so it is only a partial explanation. No doubt the BNP would like to see themselves as "smashing Bolshevism" or whatever, provided they could find any left to smash. There are few openly fascist organisations left, although the American Fascist Movement regard the likes of the BNP as extremists.--Streona (talk) 10:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

"No doubt the BNP would like to see themselves as "smashing Bolshevism" or whatever" But this is just your opinion - not an indisputable fact. I've followed the BNP for a while and I've never heard them speak out against 'Bolshevism'. In fact the BNP have a strict policy of no violence, they never march on the streets and they never assault police - unlike many of their opponents who fequently use such tactics that could easily be described as fascist i.e. the unite against fascism (UAF) & various fundamentalist Muslim groups behaviour at the recent Harrow mosque riots in London. Furthermore as a supposidly neutral website, wikipedia should realise that 'extremism' is reletive - not set in stone. Many people may view the BNP's views as 'extremist' but the BNP equally view their's as extremist, and given the fact that they are now firmly established as a minority party (with similar support to the UK Green party) one can no longer simply discredit everything they say as false.

I don't find references to political movements a hundred years old as being particularly helpful here. Equally, references to ideologies sixty or seventy years old are equally unhelpful; clearly, the grounds have shifted somewhat. However, when normally responsible journalists make such comparisons, we tend to regard them as reliable sources, despite the fact that they are principally writers and not political scientists. As for neutrality, this and similar articles seem to be perpetual battlegrounds between the pros, the antis, and the neutrals, and sadly, the neutrals are either absent or unwilling to fight their corner in the face of factionalism. Sad. Perhaps taking a step back on all parts would be advisable. Rodhullandemu 00:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources describe the BNP as fascists, quite right too because thats exactly what they are. Whilst the BNP refuse to allow Black British citizens to join their little party, you can be sure people will try to simply discredit everything the BNP says as false. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Hard for anyone to be neutral when dealing with an article on a party like this. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"Hard for anyone to be neutral when dealing with an article on a party like this." then perhaps you shouldn't comment on this article. "Reliable sources describe the BNP as fascists, quite right too because thats exactly what they are." What reliable sources - the uaf, the sun & other left-leaning papers - I would hardly consider them 'reliable' sources when dealing with a political issue they oppose. And how exactly are the bnp fascist? are you even aware of what that word actually means? As I already stated the bnp does not line up with the definition of fascism, they are socially very conservative and economically quite socialist. In order to be fascist a party or government needs to be socially very conservative AND very economically corporatist AND use force to threaten/intimidate, depribe or ban their political rivals - the latter two of which the bnp actually has done against them i.e. the banning of their members from certain local bodies & being physically attacked with clawhammers etc. I have to agree with Rodhull andemu here - references to 70 year old political ideologies aren't very intelligent or helpful, in fact much of this whole article reads as though it were written by a member of the uaf or searchlight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe if you'd actually bother to look at the references provided in the article you would see what reliable sources consider the BNP to be fascist, and not one of them is the UAF or The Sun. MaesterTonberry (talk) 09:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Do not worry 203.100.211.178, i avoid making edits to this article otherwise it would be even less neutral and youd have alot more to complain about. In truth i dont have strong feelings about them being labelled fascist, originally i thought it would be best to remove it from the infobox because i can think of a few terms used to describe Labour which wouldnt be allowed on their page, but reliable sources do describe the BNP that way and there for we shouldnt just ignore that. Whilst they may not consider or call themselves fascist, we all know thats what they are. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:37, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

A quick google gives lost of discussion including Why the BNP is Still Fascist, this and from the Guardian none are the biggest fans of the BNP but discussion of the BNP as fascist is legitimate based on this quick sample, a section discussion the disputed labelling of the BNP as Fascist/righ-twing/racist in the media would be a good addition that would address all this to a make the article more neutral. --Nate^t/_c 11:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The articles you listed are extremely bias and mostly draw on the party's neo-fascist past, not the current bnp. The first two of them are from small neo-marxist/far-leftist sites and can hardly be considered 'reliable' can they, as for the last one its arguements that the bnp is fascist is based on the old (1980's-1990's) bnp not the modern one (Griffin era). Its clear that many people think the bnp has 'put on a new image' just for political gain, but again thats just your opinion, it doesn't matter what a party used to stand for - after all the UK Labour party used to be anti-homosexual but you wouldn't call them that now. And besides why does it matter what some jouneralists say? they don't decide everything, if they started saying 2+2=5 would that make it true in wikipedia's eyes. Again being 'far-right' doesn't automatically make you fascist, and therefore wikipedia needs to stop their obvious bias against nationalism by comparing it to fascism of previous decades as peoples views do evolve over time - including Nick Griffin's. As this article itself states Griffin admitted that under the old Tyndall-era bnp he was forced to 'tow the party line' on many issues (such as 'zionism'). So prehaps a fairer way to put it would be "many accuse the bnp of habouring fascist or neo-fascist tendancies (due to their neo-fascist past) although the bnp themselves deny this and often counter-accuse their opponents of fascism, citing several legal attacks against bnp members because of their political beliefs; such as the ongoing legal case against adam walker and the banning of bnp members from the police force and other civil service positions".

All i'm asking for is that you remove the "fascism" label in the info-box, not remove all accusations of fascism. It is an appalling sight to see wikipedia stoop so low that it panders to one side of the arguement over the other, as this article seems to go out of its way to dis-credit the bnp rather than taking a factual & up-to-date approach i.e. not digging up past neo-fascist beliefs and saying they still apply even when the bnp denies and even denouces them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 (talk • contribs) 05:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The sources provided in the article that describe the BNP as fascist are from peer-reviewed academic journals, the 'gold standard' on Wikipedia. If you can provide the same standard of sources that dispute the BNP are; fascist, ever were fascist or at which precise point they stopped being fascist, then we will have something new to debate but until then you are just rehashing the same arguments that have gone on this talk page and which have always have ended in keeping the label in place. MaesterTonberry (talk) 10:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

So can we agree with Griffin, that an incoming BNP government would change the status of those they consider to be non indigenous "folk" communities who will not or cannot leave the country to what he termed "guests" - presumably having only the status of tourists. These people would have almost no rights to employment, health, housing, welfare or employment? The death penalty would be introduced for "treason" - which historically has proven to be a very elastic concept when applied to people who disagree with their government. Apart from members with tattoos which won't come off, the BNP has replaced overt Nazi/Fascist symbols with the Union Flag, but their policies are implicit and amount to the same aims they ever had. --Streona (talk) 09:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Griffin makes his true feelings very clear in this video. [1] This idea the BNP has truely reformed and become a patriotic party is rubbish. They are a disgrace to this country and that is something liberals and conservatives can agree on which is why theres many reliable sources describing them as fascist. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Well let's look at the Wikipedia definition of Fascism: "Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.", none of which could be applied to the BNP. It's funny that when it says: "...claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy [...] This was to be achieved by establishing significant government control over business and labour (Mussolini called his nation's system "the corporate state").", which is actually pretty much excactly what our Socialist-Social Democratic government is doing in Norway today. So is the Norwegian Labour Party-led government fascist then? Would it be appropriate to add that in the infobox? As far as I know real fascism involves (para)military marching, uniforms and dictatorships, which the BNP has nothing to do with. Further it may be argued that nobody that actually are "fascist" would secretly hide it in this giant conspiracy against the people as the left-of-center always love to claim in their fear-propaganda. And when regimes considered as "Para-fascist" (in the Wikipedia fascism-article) includes Pinochet regime in Chile, Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party regime in Iraq, Apartheid-era South Africa by the Afrikaans Nationalist Party, I think it really is a complete mockery towards both real Fascism, and against victims of fascism, when "Fascism" is in this desperate attempt attached to the current BNP. This is an encyclopedia, not a far-left fear and conspiracy factory. Very specific ideologies such as "Fascism", "Nazism", "Communism" and so on should not be put on any organization that do not expressely claim to be it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.17.18.172 (talk • contribs)

Then start as section discussing why the labels are inaccurate, they are still in current use see this, whether the label is used correctly is not up ot the editors here, it is used but a sisscusion on why it is not so with sources who say the that is is a bad description is entirely reasonable. --Nate^t/_c 16:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is a BNP respone to specific scholarly definitions of fascist [2]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.17.138.43 (talk • contribs) 00:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

That is not a reliable source. Look you really are wasting your time trying to get the fascist label removed because it will be opposed by several people. It would be more productive if you made suggestions on how the article could be improved. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I just see the same rehash of the same arguments that have been rejected previously. --Cameron Scott (talk) 08:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

This still hasn't been addressed. I suggest that until it is we remove the "Fascism" label or at least the link because such internal inconsistencies are embarrassing. One has to budge, because their policies and Fascism as defined on Wikipedia don't align, and it's misleading and incorrect. If the label is applied due to a "recalibration" of Fascist ideology then surely it is a matter for discussion in the article (along with the BNP's denials) and not a certainty we can just stick in the infobox. Entries in the infobox are not meant to stir up controversy. Look at how the article on the National Democratic Party of Germany deals with a similar phrase, in the second paragraph of the lead. Some of the references here that call the BNP Fascist are part of mainstream political discourse; using them is as fair (assuming this is non-biased) as defining mainstream political parties by what fringe parties label them, when they deny it. Further, we have David Renton, a socialist[3], and Richard Thurlow and Nigel Compsey, academics who make their careers out of writing about Fascism, and so have vested interests in spotting it. Above, Nate presented articles calling them Fascist, one of which was written by a left-wing Labour Party member and another by somebody writing for Marxist journal. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 19:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to return like a dog unto its vomit, but the question has not been tackled of inner-party democracy within the BNP. I understand that whilst the leadership is theoretically elective, anyone actually standing against Griffin - such as Colin Auty - is apt to have themselves accused of treason & expelled and their supporters intimidated by ex- South African Policemen. It also seems as if the Leader has a dominance over policy-making & approval of membership not inconsistent with Der Fuhrerprinzip of yesteryear.--Streona (talk) 13:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

lol that sounds like a fair and accurate analysis of the BNP to me :) BritishWatcher (talk) 15:47, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

"It also seems as if the Leader has a dominance over policy-making", you`re quite misinformed if you think that because Nick Griffin wants to admit non-whites into the party and he will have to seek the approval of other members to incorporate this new change on october 15th. Next time you try to assert something inform yourself a little bit more next time by a method called READING, you should try it. Especially when you try to assert something in such an arrogant and immature way.--Spitzer19 (talk) 18:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Can we be more polite?, or we - or rather you- might just get blocked (again). Members of the BNP who disgree with Griffin's position have also a history of getting banned out of the BNP & their house broken into by the "Security Team" so will there be a free vote on the acceptance of non-Whites as Griffin has been advised by his lawyers (if you can call Lee Barnes that)?--Streona (talk) 18:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

"Members of the BNP who disgree with Griffin's position have also a history of getting banned out of the BNP & their house broken into by the "Security Team". Okay, IF that is true then provide them concrete examples of people who disagreed with Nick Griffin and got their houses broken by his security team.--Spitzer19 (talk) 18:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Sadie Graham. --Streona (talk) 18:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

That is interesting, it seems that she was banned for her demands that Mark Collett be removed from the BNP for making statements sympathetic to Hitler and when she was removed she had a laptop confiscated from that while seemed to have belonged to the BNP was not confiscated in an entirely legal way. That being said it is nothing compared to what a hardline fascist or Nazi group/gang(aka skinheads) like the Aryan brotherhood would do to you. It is also worth noting that Nick Griffin has disapproved of Mark Collett`s comments and his sympathies and that the BNP are not the only group that would ban someone, virtually every political movement has banned people and many have harassed former members but the context for which she was banned does suggest some fascist sympathies within the BNP. That being said, it does not seem like a sufficient basis to label them as a purely fascist movement because you see people in parties that are centre-left make comments that there are good points in Communism eventhough they are not purely Marxist or Communist. For this reason I have proposed that we label the BNP a deviation of Fascism, because even the references seem to label them as such. As a group who have fascist elements and similiarites or parallels with other fascist movements.--Spitzer19 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Hang on - Mark Collett makes pro-Hitler, pro- Nazi statements and Sadie Graham objects, yet it is she that is thrown out of the BNP? What does that tell you ?--Streona (talk) 09:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It shows they ahve people that might have some sympathy for the fascist ideology, just like Labour and the LibDems have some sympathy for Communism. However, the LibDems and Labour are not explicitly Communist, just like the BNP are not explicitly fascist.--Spitzer19 (talk) 16:24, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Implicitly fascist then.--Streona (talk) 08:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The fascism label needs to be modified

I took a look at the references that assert the BNP are fascists and they do not assert that they`re fascists in an orthodox or traditional sense. This is obvious for anyone that follows the BNP because they do not quote any of the slogans from Nazi Germany or fascist Italy and they even use Winston Churchill in their political outreach. The references merely state that the BNP have traits in common with earlier fascist movements so this should be specified. I think it would appropriate to state in the information box that they are a British deviation of fascism.--Spitzer19 (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

JUst re-checked the Copsey article, and it definitely aligns the BNP with core fascism - the above sounds like OR and an attempt to read into the sources. Fascism is an ideology, it doesn't need to emulate German or Italian brands to be so...--Red Deathy (talk) 07:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

This has been debated here ad nauseam (see archives). The references cited DO say that the BNP is fascist. Incidentally, the BNP's use of Winston Churchill has been condemned by his family. (But it's interesting to note that Churchill, when visiting Italy in the 1930s, said to Mussolini, "Duce, if I were Italian, I would be a fascist." Emeraude (talk) 13:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Red Deathy, you`re lying. The source states "He(Copsey) concludes that ideological renewal under Griffin constitutes a recalibration". Hence they are a recalibration of fascism, not core fascism.--Spitzer19 (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

"But it's interesting to note that Churchill, when visiting Italy in the 1930s, said to Mussolini, "Duce, if I were Italian, I would be a fascist." Stalin also stated "I realize how much the German people love their fuhrer and I drink to his health."By your logic it means that the British neo-communist party is a Nazi party too--Spitzer19 (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't be stupid. It was a humorous aside on my part, not a political studies thesis. And Red Deathy is not lying: Copsey's point, and it is made by other commentators, is that no political ideology remains static. They all develop and change with time. Michael Billig observed, regarding Martin Walker's book on the BNP's predecessor, the National Front, that Walker's "avoidance of describing the National Front as 'fascist' may be based on an insufficient understanding of the continuities within the fascist tradition and upon the assumption that all instances of a political movement or ideology will be precisely the same." (M. BILLIG, "Fascists: a social psychological view of the National Front", p5, European Monographs in Social Psychology, 1978) Still applies.

It's also clear that you have NOT read Copsey's article but only the journal editor's abstract, and even then you have quoted selectively. To complete the sentence you have cherry picked from: "He concludes that ideological renewal under Griffin constitutes a recalibration of fascism rather than a fundamental break in ideological continuity." i.e., the ideology is still fascist. Emeraude (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Michael Billig is bias in favour of Freudo-Marxism (cut from the Frankfurt School cloth). People who are actively working to subvert the West are not a neutral or reliable source for articles, especially on contested points such as this. In any case the BNP is not the NF. Can we have some non-far left academic sources which claim the BNP is ideologically "fascist"? What do Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton, Zeev Sternhell, Stanley G. Payne have to say on the issue? The fact that the party, even though it is completely legal in the UK to form a fascist party (or in fact any ideology), rejects the label is significant for it to be a violation of WP:BLP. In any case, regardless of what the party may or may not have been in the past, it is difficult to argue after Griffin's Haiderisation of the party that it is even that radical. It simply mixes populism with ethno-nationalism. - Yorkshirian (talk) 17:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

None of which invalidates Billig's observation that it is false to assume that "all instances of a political movement or ideology will be precisely the same". Emeraude (talk) 09:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

You can try that argument on the WP:BLPN if you like, but describing the BNP as fascist is the same as saying eggs are eggy, and not a BLP issue. It might be a WP:RS issue, but we have plenty of those, and there is already an WP:NPON discussion.Verbal chat 18:46, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

If they were called the "British Fascist Party" you might have a point. However, they identify themselves and their agenda as "nationalists", explicity rejecting the term fascist to describe their own ideology. Its not a violation of WP:BLP to called Mussolini or Mosley fascists, because that was what their own party program, written by their hand explicity positioned themselves as. The same cannot be said of Griffin's BNP, where the term is used exclusively by some of their opponents. The BNP doesn't claim to be fascist, thus an assertion that its members are, despite no reference to said ideology in their constitution or program, is a WP:BLP issue. - Yorkshirian (talk) 19:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

All good points that are true. Even the admittedly biased reference states that although the BNP is not a "fundamental break in ideological continuity" it is nonetheless a "recalibration". In a political sense such a word translates as reform. So as you said they are not explicitly fascist like Mussolini or Mosley and the source makes a case(despite the fact it is admittedly quite biased) that they are a modification that have kept some core tendencies of fascism so they are either a group that holds parallels of fascism(which is not enough to consider them fascist but merely to assert that they have SOME fascist parallels or tendencies) or are a deviation of the orthodox fascism of Mussolini or the British fascism of Mosley--Spitzer19 (talk) 16:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not WP:BLP because this isn't a biography of a living person. Copsey's article is from a reputable peer reviewed journal. Recalibration, if you recaliber a rifle it remains a rifle, just firing different bullets, recalibrated fascism remains fascism, and your reading of the article is OR, the whole thrust of the article is that they remain a fascistic party. All that is required to remove the fascism tag is a reliable, verifiable third party reference to that effect.--Red Deathy (talk) 07:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

But Spitzer19, you still haven't read the journal article have you? Stop quoting selectively and pointelessly from the journal's abstract and comment on the article itself, after you have read it. What you are doing is equivalent to describing a novel based purely on the blurb on the back cover. But, to stay just with the abstract, note that it says there has not been "a fundamental break in ideological continuity" i.e., the BNP's still fascist!!! Emeraude (talk) 09:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

"Recalibration, if you recaliber a rifle it remains a rifle", yes that is why it would be appropriate to term the BNP a deviation of fascism, still fascist but a deviation from fascism in the orthodox sense. Doing such would be in line with what the sources claim. As for the article, I am not a subscriber. If you want me to read it take a screen shot, put it on photobucket and send me the link. I have no intention on wasting money by subscribing to that site.--Spitzer19 (talk) 16:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

You could get a copy of the article, if you are in the UK by giving the reference to your local public library, it would only cost you 50p or so. I'm afraid your OR reading still doesn't stand up, recalibrated means it is essentially fascism, with all the hallmarks of essential fascism, but that the story remains the same.--Red Deathy (talk) 07:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

As you said, if you recalibrate a rifle it is still a rifle but if you`re a vendor of firearms it is your responsibility to inform the buyer that a certain model has been recalibrated as it is wikipedia`s responsibility to inform people that the BNP are a recalibration or (as I think would be a more appropriate term for an a political group or movement) a deviation of fascism--Spitzer19 (talk) 16:21, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

So far, we have yet to see any specific claims to why the BNP is "fascist", to this point only numerous claims to why the BNP are not "fascist". But I am prepared for more of these leftist claims more or less just saying that "they just are fascist" and so on. Not allowing non-white members for instance do not at all equal a party of being "fascist", if that's the case there are numerous organizations in Britain that do not allow non-black, non-asian members. Is it a claim of intemidation or something like that? In that case the UAF are far more "fascist" than the BNP. Further, several of the users discussing here, like BritishWatcher, has shown in the topic below to have a clearly personal prejudgemental and biased view (maybe a UAF-activist even?), which means that the views presented by that person can not be taken seriously. User:Gabagool/sig 11:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Who cares? The claims are based on reliable sources, that's the start and end of it. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

"The claims are based on reliable sources" and the sources state they are a deviation of fascist or as copsey asserts a "recalibration". Hence, it needs to be specified in the article that they`re a deviation or a recalibration of fascist.Now one could debate whether these articles or reliable(and a fair case can be made that they`re not) but that is another discussion. Clearly they`re either a Deviation/recalibration of fascism or are not fascist--Spitzer19 (talk) 17:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I am no fan of the UAF either, from the video footage i have seen of that groups actions, they are disgraceful aswell although i share their concerns about the "English defence League" and the BNP, it is no excuse for the UAF to try and spark riots in British cities.

However as i said before i did not write the article and i only give comments here on the talk page, but when it comes to adding stuff to the article i think i take a fair stance, i did actually try arguing for the removal of the fascist label a few months ago, but its not because i think its an incorrect label for this party, was just for fairness as theres reliable sources calling Labour communist (i suspect) lol. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Holding personal views does not mean that one is incapable of presenting an unbiased argument. I do it all the time. I support a certain football team, so I'm biased, but it does not mean my comments are unreliable if I say that their opponents played better (or worse). What is important, whether football or politics, is not personal views but substantiated and verifiable comment. It's interesting that it's only those who want to say the BNP is not fascist who make personal attacks on the supposed personal views of others! Emeraude (talk) 12:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

"but it does not mean my comments are unreliable if I say that their opponents played better (or worse)" okay so by your logic Arthur Butz who is a professor at Northwestern and is an author of the book -Hoax of the 20th century-(he is of course alleging that the hoax is the Holocaust) would be an appropiate source for the Holocaust article on wikipedia?Somehow I get the impression that if I were to use him as a source for an edit on the Holocaust article that it would be removed within seconds and if I were to persist I would be banned instantly. LOL.--Spitzer19 (talk) 16:12, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

We have plenty of WP:RS that the BNP is fascist. That's the end of it as far as WP is concerned. Any removal of the term from he article will be contrary to the goals of this project, and will be viewed as disruptive editing. Verbal chat 12:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The issue of this thread is not whether they are fascist or not, the sources assert they are fascist but are a deviation(or as Copsey says a "recalibration") of fascism.--Spitzer19 (talk) 16:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

That's a misquote of the Copsey paper which says the underlying ideology is unchanged. have you actually read the paper? --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It is not a misquote of Copsey`s claims. The issue here is not whether the BNP is still fascist but the source asserts that they are a recalibration of fascism. Saying they are a recalibration of fascism does not claim that they`re not fascist but merely that they`re a deviation of fascism and that needs to be specified in the article.--Spitzer19 (talk) 17:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

on what page does he use the phrase "deviation of fascism"?--Cameron Scott (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The review of this book conveys that he asserts that they`re a "recalibration" of fascism.

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a770185679

I know you might try to dismiss it by saying it is just a review but the review was written by someone who obviously read the book and has been confided by the site that is being used as a reference to convey and summarize Copsey`s assertions so the reviewer`s interpretation of this book carries abundantly more weight than the interpretations of anybody here--Spitzer19 (talk) 17:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the ice is getting a bit thin. However perhaps a quote from the source saying the BNPis facist might be usefull to help clear this up.Slatersteven (talk) 21:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The abstract clearly calls the BNP a "recalibration" of fascism in order to assert that the party is still fascist, not that it is no longer fascist. The full sentence is: "He concludes that ideological renewal under Griffin constitutes a recalibration of fascism rather than a fundamental break in ideological continuity" (my emphasis). In the article itself Copsey is even more explicit: "This does not represent some fundamental breach of ideological continuity. It is not the transformation from fascism to national-populism but the recalibration and modernization of fascism itself. It once more testifies to the almost Darwinian ability of fascism to survive and adapt as an ideology. Adversaries are therefore quite justified in their vilification of the BNP as fascist although, for the sake of accuracy, the 'neo-fascist' label is more exact" (my emphasis). Copsey clearly says that it is "quite justified" to refer to the BNP as fascist. The case is, it seems to me, closed.VoluntarySlave (talk) 00:01, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Not so long ago, Microsoft Encarta (1999 version) had managed to define the Norwegian Progress Party as "Neo-Nazi", and far-left ("social democratic nice organization") "SOS Racism" (leaders have links to Stalinist and Maoist groups) has publicly called it "Nazi". Just saying that even popularly renowned sources can be terribly wrong, or extremly biased. As such, I think it should at least be presented the specific reasons to why the BNP are fascist, so that eventually the discussion could be closed, in either "direction". (Just to say, I do think the BNP have some very stupid policies, like having ethnic requirements for membership. Nevertheless, I would like to see a truthful and neutral article about the party, thus removing possible political biased smears.) User:Gabagool/sig 23:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

As I said in the previous discussion, lots of sources say they are fascist so the label is fair. HOWEVER the BNP & some commentators disspute the lable and this is all sourceable, so would not the sensible solution be, to stop debating an academic point of original research and to include a section stating that the BNP dispute some labels used for them in the press and who supports their position. --Nate^t/_c 12:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't think it needs a whole section - the article is long as it is - but there did used to be a sentence or two in the article to the effect that "the BNP is described as fascist, a description the party denies". Now, I thought this was still in there somewhere, but I can't find it so perhaps it got watered down or reworded or removed without me noticing. I'd suggest a similar sentence in the intro, possibly along with the details of opposition from other parties and using the refs given in the infobox or for the politicians (Nick Clegg, for example, described the BNP as "a party of fascists, thugs." Unfortunately, I am unable to provide any references for the contrary view, not even from the BNP. Emeraude (talk) 12:48, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Not sure this is any good, but it at least acknowledges they deny it http://www.workersliberty.org/system/files/tw090721.pdf. We also have this, http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/113462/Griffin-denies-fascism-smears-#, now if Mr Griffin speaks for the party and is the party then this must be the view of the party. We also have this http://bnp.org.uk/2007/12/countering-the-smears/ it also has a number of other dewniles too. This too http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/north-east-news/2003/12/07/party-denies-racist-links-79310-13701424/.Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Yet again someone(this time voluntaryslave) has completely detracted by the point of this thread.

"The full sentence is: "He concludes that ideological renewal under Griffin constitutes a recalibration of fascism rather than a fundamental break in ideological continuity" (my emphasis). In the article itself Copsey is even more explicit: "This does not represent some fundamental breach of ideological continuity. It is not the transformation from fascism to national-populism but the recalibration and modernization of fascism itself. It once more testifies to the almost Darwinian ability of fascism to survive and adapt as an ideology. Adversaries are therefore quite justified in their vilification of the BNP as fascist although, for the sake of accuracy, the 'neo-fascist' label is more exact"

Firstly, the point here is not denying whether the BNP is fascist or not but the need to specify in the article that the BNP are a deviation or a recalibration of fascism rather than a fascist party in an orthodox or traditional sense. Calling them neo-fascist would not be the appropriate thing to do because Neo-fascist is essentially the same, the prefix "neo" is merely added by some people to distinguish between Mussolini and Hitler and fascists/nazis today.

"national-populism but the recalibration and modernization of fascism itself"

THIS IS PRECISELY MY POINT. They are a recalibration or modern deviation of fascism and it appears that you agree with me so obviously there is a consensus here to present the BNP as a modern deviation of traditional fascism.As Red Deathy said, if you recalibrate a rifle it is still a rifle but if your a vendor of firearms it is your responsibility to inform the buyer that a certain model has been recalibrated as it is wikipedia`s responsibility to inform people that the BNP are a recalibration or (as I think would be a more appropriate term for an a political group or movement) a deviation of fascism--Spitzer19 (talk) 16:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Your behaviour in continually editing the "fascism" in the infobox is disruptive. You have ignored the reasoned contributions of other editors and, quite clearly, you STILL HAVE NOT READ THE SOURCE YOU CLAIM TO BE RELYING ON (Copsey). I suspect you have not read the otthers either. The fact that your chosen phrase appears in the abstract of the article written by the journal's editor is totally useless to your argument. Copsey did not write that. Further, even if he had, it is but one source out of five (as you yourself indicated in your last edit); and those are just the five that are listed as examples of many, many others. All of these sources are quite plain that the BNP was and is fascist. Some make the point that fascism has changed over the years (as has EVERY other political philosophy, ideology or party). It is the same as I have changed over the years - it's called time passing. If you want to be consistent, go to the articles on the Conservative Party (or any other party of your choice) and see if you can get away with describing them as "recalibrated" or "deviation from...". All parties have changed as time passes (for example, what was the Labour Party's policy on the Internet in 1970? What was Hitler's view on HIV/AIDS?). Copsey's point was a very simple one: the BNP claimed it had changed. It hadn't. It was still fascist. End of story. Emeraude (talk) 16:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"You have ignored the reasoned contributions of other editors", what I wrote before your most recent rebuttal was a direct retort to what 2 people had said(therefore I am not ignoring anything) and I showed quite clearly that the BNP are a deviation of fascism(as shown by someone who read Renton(the most recent source) and who was confided by the site being used as a source and who`s interpretation of Renton`s analysis carries abundantly more weight than yours) and that the arguments presented by others here in the discussion show quite clearly that they share this opinion that the BNP are a modern deviation or recalibration of fascism. My point is thus that it is wikipedia`s responsibility to specify that the BNP are a recalibration or a deviation of fascism and your arguments against doing this fall flat. I will refute some of what you just wrote to demonstrate this.

-"it is but one source out of five"

Renton appears to be most recent so his interpretation that the BNP are a recalibration or a deviatiobn(as I word it) is the most relevant of the sources.

-"If you want to be consistent, go to the articles on the Conservative Party (or any other party of your choice) and see if you can get away with describing them as "recalibrated""

This is the reason why the term NEO-CONS or Neo-Conservatives is employed to describe men like Bush who deviate from what Conservatives once were. The term Neo-fascist cannot be used because unfortunately it is often used in an erroneous context to describe fascists or Nazis who share the exact same ideology as Hitler or Mussolini but who were born afterwards.

-"All parties have changed as time passes"

Yes, Orthodox Nazi or fascist parties like the American Nazi Party have changed but ther ideology still remains explicitly Nazi. The BNP`s ideology has deviated from that position in recent years so even if they still retain characteristics of a Fascist group they are nontheless an altered version of it,as the reference clearly indicates, and this needs to be specified if wikipedia desires to be an accurate source of information.--Spitzer19 (talk) 17:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

You continue to show your ignorance. (1) You have not shown anything "quite clearly" but simply stuck stubbornly to your unsubstantiated opinion. (2)Apparently, you can decide that someone carries more weight than I? (3)No one seems to be sharing your opinion but you. (4)"BNP`s ideology has deviated from that position in recent years..." Says who? You? (5)Bush (either of them) was not and is not a member of the Conservative Party. (6)Apart from the same word, there is no connection between the Conservative Party (a UK political party) and Neo-cons (a US political position). (7)However a word may be misused by others, is not a reason for us not to use it correctly - this is an encyclopaedia. Neo-fascist is not used by political scientists to describe fascists born after Hitler/Mussolini. (8) Recency is not directly related to relevance. Besides, Renton is not the newest - Copsey (2007) is. (9) But anyway, Renton's article is here before me and the word "recalibration" appears nowhere in it. (10)YOU HAVEN'T READ IT HAVE YOU? Emeraude (talk) 18:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

JUst a small point - deviation and recalibration are not synonyms. Here's how the OED defines recalibrate: "To calibrate (an instrument or device) again or differently. Also in extended use: to reset, to adjust." note, reset implies recalibration can restore orthodoxy. So, again, no, there is no source for deviation.--Red Deathy (talk) 07:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Fascist Deviants? Bit POV but it has a ring to it.--Streona (talk) 08:39, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Added tehy deny it, but have not added sourcefor the label as I cannot view them.Slatersteven (talk) 17:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

If "fascism" absolutely have to be stated in the infobox, I think it should be replaced with the more suiting explanation of "Fascist (epithet)". User:Gabagool/sig 18:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

As they deny and most of the sources for the idea that they are Fascist comes from groups or organisations that have proffessed hostility and opersition to hte BNP that would seem fair.Slatersteven (talk) 19:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The references provided which describe the BNP as fascist do it not as an insult or an epithet but as a description of their ideology. This change would misrepresent what's in the sources. WP policy also calls on us to avoid terms like "alleged". MaesterTonberry (talk) 22:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

It is exactly what it is, because the modern BNP openly deny being ideological "fascist", they are, and identify as, nationalist, two rather different things (as is communism and socialism, and socialism and social democrasism different ideologies). As a matter of fact, they actually use the term "fascist" as a degoratory term (as the leftists do) against several of its political opponents, based on about equally as good arguments. So who is to judge who is this and that? As an encyclopedia I think it is very unfortunate for Wikipedia to take this road of presenting biased "facts", in whatever direction. I believe it would be most appropriate to rather look on discussing the "fascism"-issue in the article, rather presenting it as a "hard fact" in the infobox as it is now. I think we should stick to neutrality here and also try to avoid using very specific ideologies to political parties who do not identify as such. It is not Wikipedia's job to in a rather conspiratorical way "reveal bad things", it's job is to present truthful and neutral facts. User:Gabagool/sig 23:25, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Then perhaps it would be usefull if the passages that call then fascist were quoted here. As at least one of the sources [[4]] seems to be talking about the BNP characterising Muslims as Fascist.Slatersteven (talk) 13:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

As the fascism label is n the info box this deserves the same level of importance as racism or Anti-Semitism, its fundamental to those who oppose them.Slatersteven (talk) 17:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Fascism Section

I was just listening to the radio and wondered what would be in wikipedia under BNP. To be honest I was pleasantly surprised by the intro - I've had experience of articles which are just blatant propoganda, and largely the intro seemed relatively unbiased. However, reading the talk, I found the controversy about "fascism" (Every article has their controversy ... it's the best bit to read!). Anyway, in the past I did some research on the faesces of Rome so I thought I'd have a look. Whilst the section on fascism seems to hold up as "truthful", to be honest I couldn't see it doing anything except offering a lot of (to be honest) spurious quotes that allowed one side to call the party fascist, without really going into the technical definition of fascism. That is to say, it is clearly mud slinging, but it really doesn't add anything to the sum of human knowledge. Then I went to the wikipedia article on fascism, and to be blunt, I've seldom read such twaddle ... and quite clearly there is no real modern definition and to devote a whole section to "opinion about whether this party is fascist or not", seems to me a complete waste of a bandwidth. So I would propose throwing out the whole section and leaving something like: "the BNP are often described as fascist although the exact definition on fascism within the post WWII context is unclear" in the intro. 88.110.76.120 (talk) 12:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Had another look at the article, and the big question of any party is: "what is it's policies", so when I read that section, I was surprised to find "fascist". Strangely I don't think that is a policy of the party anymore than "socialism" is a policy of the labour party (or ever was). I don't think there is any question in my mind, the section on fascism needs to be removed from "policy". Perhaps it needs a section on "political pursuasion" ... I'd have to check what the UK Labour party policy says about socialism and I would devote a similar amount of space and a similar position in the article to fascism in regard to the BNP and socialism in regard to Labour. 88.110.76.120 (talk) 12:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

To some extent I agree with you - "Fascism" should be a standalone section and not under policies, but the recent history of this page will explain why it is where it is. As you areno doubt aware, the BNP is (in)famous for being a fascist party (or, to satisfy some editors, for being described as a fascist party). To some extent, I guess that's why you came to this article. Now, ths makes it a contentious issue and it must be covered in the article. You are, of course,absolutely right about Wikipedia's article of fascism - it is a mess. However, that is an argument for improving that article and really has no bearing on this. Fascism here has been as used by mainstream politicians (Cameron, Hain, Johnson, Clegg) who you may say have a bias. Fair enough, but they may be right as well. More importantly though, the fascism description in the article is tied to academic articles in peer-reviewed journals with sources clearly given, so regardless of what Wikipedia says about fascism we have the expert statements of respected academics. They have very clear and well-defined ideas about post WW2 fascism. That should be good enough for anyone. Emeraude (talk) 12:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Obviously the anon is correct, this is simply about political opponents irrelevent name calling, not a presentation of this parties policy, which the section is for (thus it is off topic). There is also a problem with WP:SYTH and the general fact that nationalist parties like these are not called simply "fascist" by the most well established academics of fascism (who do not use the word to describe post-WWII movements). The section isn't WP:NPOV, but thats the whole point of it being there in the first place I imagine. The policy section is as it says for a description of its policies, not "names used by its political opponents, as a flailing attempt to hold onto its electorate)". - Yorkshirian (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The BNP has been accused of fascism, and is RS. As such it has a place in tghe arti8cel. But it would be usefull to also have some overview of the BNP's own statments as to its policies, not the issue of fascism but actual manifesto promises (I.E. what it says it stands for).Slatersteven (talk) 16:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Regardless, the section, like in all other party articles, is purely for a description of its policies. Not whether the word "fascism" can successfully be used in Freudo-Marxian critical theory to blacklist opponents. I'm sure references can be found where Labour has been accused of Marxism and war-mongering by opponents, yet its not pertinent to have a section under such a heading, in that article. Wikipedia neither has a bias for or against fascism, communism, islamism or anything else, since we are bound by the NPOV policy. Lets say for the sake of argument that the BNP was an open and overt "fascist party"? It still doesn't warrant a whole section which just dances around on opposition politicians use of a phrase. It isn't encyclopedic and doesn't tell the reader anything that needs a whole section devoted to it. All that is needs is one simply sentence which says "Various political opponents have claimed that the BNP advocates fascism, the party itself firmly denies these accusation." Simple. - Yorkshirian (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I strongly support this, what the hell are so overtly biased statemenets as "They (BNP) believe in the purity of the Aryan race" and "...they are still Nazi thugs" doing in an encyclopedic article? I just wonder, why hasn't Nazism and Aryanism then been added as the ideology of BNP since "some well-known politician (or their supporter) said so"?? And what does this have to do with fascism?? This is just some of the facts that make the whole "fascism"-claim fall completely apart because it is utterly biased statements made by competing politicians, and their allies, which of course do not want to let an opposing party get their voters. User:Gabagool/sig 17:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to be a policy but a criticism. The article also doesn't make it clear like the FAQ does up above. I was expecting to see information on single-party politics and the wish for an authoritative state but instead saw what is essentially a list of critics calling them fascists for being racist and nationalists. It should be moved out of the policies section. The amount of weight "fascism" is given in the overall article might be a concern, too. I assume this was unintentional and in an effort to meet the verifiability requirements.Cptnono (talk) 23:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

POV?

I know the BNP are a bunch of crazy racists, but this article seems very biased against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.237.132 (talk) 01:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Its certainly nothing more than they deserve. Do you have any suggestions as to how it could be improved to make it more neutral? Trouble with this sick party is theres nothing good to say. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I think thnat reveals an POV agenda, and perhaps more nuetral editing might improve the artcile.Slatersteven (talk) 13:31, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I have strong POV on this sick group and i wont for one second hide my hate for them. However i am not responsible for this article, i did not write the article or contribute to its contents although ive given my opinion on a couple of parts of it. Its all very well people saying the article isnt neutral and it needs people with out a POV agenda, but weve all asked for examples of exactly how this article can be improved to make it more neutral. Ive yet to hear anything with the exception of removing the fascism label which is what seems to cause the most trouble. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:37, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

If people have specific POV concerns, then raise them here or a the NPOV noticeboard. Please keep accusations of agendas, etc, off this page. Verbal chat 13:42, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

"Historically the BNP (including Nick Griffin)" why is Mr Griffin mentioned this page is not about him? that seems to me a bit biased. Do any otehr politcal part pages also note that the leader of the party supports its views? Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#BNP Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is supposed to prevent mainstream views and unfortunately for the BNP mainstream academic and journalistic coverage of them is entirely negative. If there are POV issues therefore the appropriate place to raise them would be with academics and the mainstream media. People who disagree with media coverage may complain to the Press Complaints Commission which will evaluate the fairness of media coverage. However as a tertiary source WP articles cannot question the fairness of media coverage. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The basic problem is that Wikipedia has basic values to do with how a discourse is conducted and how knowledge evolves (peer review, respect for each other regardless of ethnic or national origin, politeness etc.) and the basic values of the BNP and those who apologise for it in these pages are at variance. Karl Popper described fascism as "mankind's periodic retreat from freedom & reason" and if Wikipedia is not about freedom & reason then it would not exist.--Streona (talk) 19:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

And assuming good faith.Slatersteven (talk) 19:49, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

• It looks like there was an effort to use Nick Griffin's past to discredit him and the party. I'm not saying they should have credit or not but that reminding the reader twice that Griffin could be a bad guy in the lead is inappropriate.Cptnono (talk) 23:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
• Internal problems is given plenty of text. Structure is not. a) Internal problems could be a subsection of Structure and b)This article is supposed to be about the group and not random criticism and emphasizing the negative. Structure is certainly as important if not more important than concerns within it.Cptnono (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Take the time to read the whole article, the more you read the worse it gets. Off2riorob (talk) 23:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Edit conflict. Yeah. Listing them out is better than speaking in general terms (as Verbal was pointing out) so here it goes!Cptnono (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

• Internal problems is given plenty of text. Structure is not. a) Internal problems could be a subsection of Structure and b)This article is supposed to be about the group and not random criticism and emphasizing the negative. Structure is certainly as important if not more important than concerns within it.Cptnono (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
• I gave my thoughts on facism in one of the three sections on this page. (see Sec 5.1 "Fascism Section" above). Cptnono (talk) 23:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Their American friends

"was still having extensive contacts with the National Alliance as recently as 2003" needs checking, not only is there contracdictory sources but also the source given for thisclaim does not make it, and more over the writer stoped his interviews (according to the source) the year before. Moreover this seems to be a review (see my comment about facist label).Slatersteven (talk) 19:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

• The sources are not contradictory, but the statement in the article that the American Friends of the BNP had links with Nat Alliance until 2003 is not supported in the sources and I am tempted to conclude that this was an error on the part of the editor who originally wrote it. Indeed, as mentioned this would have been impossible at any official level if the BNP group was forced to disband in 2001, though the people themselves, for all anyone knows, may and probably did maintain these links. It seems more sensible to reduce the coverage of this issue, as I have done, to the bare minimum. I've left the added references in; they do provide useful background to any readers who want detail. Emeraude (talk) 09:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Where in the sources does it mention the National AllianceSlatersteven (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I have removed this as the sources make no mention of the National Alliance.Slatersteven (talk) 14:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Redwitch

http://www.redwatch.org.uk/bn1.jpg seesm to be broke.Slatersteven (talk) 14:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC) The link still does not work, so why were sources that did work removed. Moreover the passage does not say the BNP denies any links. I also belive that the fact that Mr Sheppard was explelled from the BNP is of great relevance.Slatersteven (talk) 14:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC) As the source does not work I nave reverted to my version.Slatersteven (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Homophobia category?

I feel this violates WP:UNDUE having the party categorised under this label. Homophobia is not a large part of their agenda. Furthermore, this article has undue weight on the anti-homosexual ideas within the BNP. It's not a big deal.--Bulgarian Psychology Professor (talk) 21:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

All they say is that homosexuality should not be promoted. When you have prepubescent children indoctrinated into the 'LGBT' agenda, I feel that is wrong and I think many other people would say the same - they're too young to learn about these things. It seems that any attempt towards conservative values is treated as 'fascism' or 'nazism'. If you oppose the promotion of homosexuality and mixed race relationships (both of which I feel are not good towards the building of a healthy society) you are treated as some kind of bigot. I feel a communist madness has overtaken the western world.--Bulgarian Psychology Professor (talk) 21:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The BNP's homophobia extends further than their opposition to the supposed "promotion" of homosexuality in schools. They want to criminalise showing anything vaguely gay-friendly in the media; Griffin said for instance that under their proposed laws a BBC filmaker who portrays being gay in a positive light could be imprisoned. MaesterTonberry (talk) 22:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Do we have a source for that?Slatersteven (talk) 16:17, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2002/sep/01/features.magazine37 MaesterTonberry (talk) 16:50, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Damn so the BNP if they came to power may lock up the Eastenders writters for that current gay story line running. Thats rather mean, their writing isnt that bad lol. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:03, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Actualy the source does not say they would be banged up, it says that if they were to do so it would not be persecuting a homosexual. Certainly it says that Clause 28 would be extended to the media, but it does not amek clear if Mt Grffin bleives they should be fined or banged up.Slatersteven (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Thats true, they could all just be given 100 lashes for their crimes. I understand corporal punishment for petty criminals is one of their core policies, im sure theyd extend it to those promoting things they disagree with, i doubt theyd go as far as to excute them although anythings possible. Thats something that makes me laugh about the BNP, this place would be more like Iran with them in power than it is now. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

It would be interesting to find out were the BNP sande on punishment for 'deviany' I suspect they would go in for coporal punishment, but as I am not thier spokeman it is very OR of me to say that.Slatersteven (talk) 17:47, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Could you please define what you consider "promotion"? Alot of things are explained in schools, its hardly "promoting it". BritishWatcher (talk) 17:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the germain issue if how the BNP define it.Slatersteven (talk) 17:16, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Germain issue? BritishWatcher (talk) 17:47, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry that should be germane issue.Slatersteven (talk) 19:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't mention the Ware! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. --Streona (talk) 08:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

This would probably fall under their general opposition to Cultural Marxism and political correctness, rather than "homophobia". For instance, currently taxpayers are forced to pay for "Manchester Pride" a major LGBT advocacy parade. Even people who may find this in direct opposition to their own personal views or contrary to their religious values, they have no choice but to pay for it, with the money they have earned, due to Loony Labour's Cultural Marxism. As this party doesn't seem to be "against homosexuals" in general (I can't find anything to say homosexuals can't join their party), but rather against Cultural Marxists using the Sexual Revolution as a weapon in public, this tag would seem to be a strech. - Yorkshirian (talk) 06:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

On the nail-bomb attack in Soho: ‘Dozens of “gay” demonstrators flaunting their perversion in front of the world’s journalist showed why so many people find these creatures so repulsive’ (Nick Griffin — Spearhead June 1999)

Perhaps one should look within his own tortured psyche for the explanation of Griffin's evident bitterness--Streona (talk) 07:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I cannot believe some of the blatant bigotry in this very conversation thread. Firstly, the term homophobia means "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals". It can just be one of these things or all three. That is the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition. Since the BNP have been quite open about the way in which they view homosexuals and how they aim to lock it up all back in the closet and take it out of mainstream society. This is discrimination, pure and simple. The BNP have stated they would bring back Section 28 (which even the Tories now admit was homophobic), and coupled with Nick Griffin's blatantly homophobic comments in the aftermath of the Admiral Duncan bombing in 1999, the BNP clearly match the category definition along with various other far-right organisations and people who are publicly known for their stance against gay rights. It may not be a term that their supporters like, but that doesn't stop it from being true. MassassiUK 22:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Firstly Massassi you have reinserted the homophobic cat without any discussion here, as far as I can see there is a clear consensus to remove the cat so if you would like to discuss it would you please remove it, also I would disagree with you that they are well known for the homophobic attitudes. Off2riorob (talk) 22:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no such consensus on this thread. As far as I can see, the category was removed without justification. You are entitled to disagree about the BNP's homophobic attitudes, though I would suggest you read the actual article (and more so their own literature) which details their stance on homosexuality. I suspect it is the definition of homophobia you have more of an issue with. MassassiUK 22:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I also support the removal of the cat, There was definitely no consensus to reinsert it as you have just come along and replaced it without any discussion at all. Off2riorob (talk) 22:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as consensus goes, . yorkshirian removed it with the edit summary of... " agree with Bulgarian Psychology Professor and I support the removal, that is three editors, I would request you to respect that and remove the cat until you can establish by discussion whether there is any support for your position. Off2riorob (talk) 22:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Your support of it is still not a consensus. I suggest you read the information on the category page itself to see how the category is applied appropriately to articles. MassassiUK 22:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

In all fairness the catergary is for articles that discuss or refer to the topic of homophobia. The article does not refer to homophobia, nor does it accuse the BNP of being Homophobic.Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting Slatersteven, I think with your comment which I support and the previous support for removal that there is no consensus for keeping the cat and i'll remove it. Off2riorob (talk) 17:30, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Exact wording from the category page: The Homophobia category is for issues relating to homophobia, including organizations or individuals that are particularly noted for expressions of homophobia, opposition to homophobia, or involvement in controversy about homophobia. Since the BNP have made it part of their mandate to reverse all gay rights legislation effectively rendering gay men and women without rights that relate to their sexuality (regardless of the number of closet cases in their organisation), it can safely be said they are discriminating against gay men and women. Discrimination against gay men and women is part of the definition of homophobia. Its a fact, not an opinion. Homophobia may not be a word (or categorisation) that the BNP and its supporters would choose to describe themselves (to be honest, most homophobes wouldn't), but that does not make it wrong or inappropriate to list the article page in the category as an encyclopedic example of homophobic expression. And just so that you are aware Rob, a consensus is not simply a majority vote. In an issue like this, it would come down to whether or not the category can be justified, sourced, and matches the definition. With the BNP, it easily does and the facts speak for themselves. Kookoo Star (talk) 22:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, and I have pointed this out to other editors, you have reinserted this cat without any discussion or any consensus, you have reinserted it and then come to discuss it, this is not the way to affect change here at wikipedia that way to affect change is through discussion. Reinserting your favoured position without discussion weakens your position. Off2riorob (talk) 22:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

And trying to claim a consensus for your position when there is none weakens yours. Kookoo Star (talk) 22:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The homophobia category should remain included. The BNP adamantly oppose equal rights for gays and it's leader and other top brass have expressed homophobic views. They're also routinely referred to as homophobic by politicians, gays rights campaigners as well as the gay press (even if they deny the label) [5] [6] [7]. The party meets the criteria for "expressions of homophobia" and "involvement in controversy about homophobia" therefore there's no good reason for the category to be removed. MaesterTonberry (talk) 23:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting, although I disagree. Not really much in your comments but more about the criteria and vagueness of this category, perhaps I will suggest an alteration to the criteria there at that noticeboard. Off2riorob (talk) 23:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Whites only following EHRC court case?

If the BNP's new constitution which Griffin is due to present in court in January comes into effect, they will no longer be an "whites-only" party. But they've made it clear they still wish to be. Should their Wiki page still carry the label "whites only"? Just to clarify, I'm not arguing this change should be made now, just starting the discussion for when it happens :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.202.45 (talk) 21:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it should we need to get itsorted but bear in mind that the BNP has decided not to admit any new members until after the January EGM when Griffin will lay it down to the membership about the new constitution which is expected to concentrate more power in the hands of the hierarchy a=in order to prevent the party being taken over by the non-white hordes.--Streona (talk) 23:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Nice pice of specualtion there. However if the BNP change their consitution (and they said they will) then the artcile has top reclfet that, just as it does now.Slatersteven (talk) 17:44, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually I believe the EGM will be in November 2009 but the return to court date is 28 Jan 2010 and if they have not changed the Constitution as required then the Court will take steps against them and they are not taking new membership applications until then, although perhaps the BNP application form should be overprinted "Smile; You're on Wikileaks!"--Streona (talk) 14:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Fascism section of article

I see that Slatersteven reverted my edits on the fascist nature of the BNP. Unfortunately, what he has done has gone back to a section which is inaccurate and not particularly informative. For example, despite what some disruptive editors have argued in this talk page, the BNP has NOT been described as a "recalibration and modernization" of fascism in any of the sources quoted, or anywhere else for that matter! This was a deliberate misreading of one article's abstract by someone who never actually read the article itself! Further, to quote just one politician (Cameron) as calling them fascist is disingenuous - dozens have - and then to give three quotes for BNP denial is just pointless when one would do. This in itself suggests a distinct lack of balance. I can agree that a proper section on Fascism is needed in this article; however the current one is not it. For this reason, I have reverted to my version which I would ask editors to accept as a temporary measure which at least covers the issue until such time as we can come up with a decent section and not this nonsense.

If a section needs work you do not delete it, you work on it. I susgest therefor that the section is re-instarted, the offending material (IE inacurate) is removed, and that comments by other politicians are inserted. We cannot work on a scetion that does not exist. To this end I will re-inserts it (with some alterationns).Slatersteven (talk) 17:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I support the removal of any innacurate content, I personally dislike peoples constant desire to put people in groups, I would say the BNP have been labeled fascist by their opponents but they actually portray a different reality and in areas where they have been voted into power, no fascist actions or policy has been implemented or reported. Off2riorob (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The BNP has not actually been voted into power anywhere, it has only had individual candidates voted onto legislative bodies, so, regardless of what the nature of the party is or isn't, "fascists actions or policy" shouldn't really be expected or looked for. The BNP doesn't ahve the power to take any such actions or policy. If you want to make a judgement about it, there are only its official policies and statements by its members to go on (or, in order to comply with WP policy, the interpretation of these made by RSs). --FormerIP (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Which is why we need a propper section not a one word line in the intro. Leave the section in and work on it, as I have tried to do.Slatersteven (talk) 18:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I support your position on this Stephen as it will be better in the body of the article where it can be expanded upon and rebutted as needied. Off2riorob (talk) 18:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

That is an entirely POV comment. It is not the job of Wikipedia article's to rebut or be rebutted but to present facts, supported by sources of evidence. The history of this discussion (I do wish people would read the archives and stop wasting time) demonstrates time and again that certain editors, almost always sympathetic to the BNP, want to remove any mention of facsism. Rationales have ranged from "I don't think it is" to "Why should I read it" (a peer-reviewed journal saying the BNP was fascist. So here's the deal. The intro needs to mention that the BNP is racist and fascist and that it has been condemened as such by academics and politicians. After all, that is the sort of issue that will cause most readers to look for the article in the first place. A detailed section is needed that refers to this academic evidence, saying why the BNP is fascist, and the BNP's denial. The current section IS TOTALLY INADEQUATE and needs to be replaced by someone who has read the sources. In the interest of balance, it would good to mention any academic sources that say the BNP is not fascist, but there aren't any that anyone has yet discovered. I am at present nurses a new computer and as everyone who has been in that position will testify, editing Wikipedia is not a priority at the moment. However, I will on Tuesday, if all is going well do wo things:

1 Redo the intro so that fascism is mentioned up top

2 Prepare a "fascism" section that presents a decent background and not a collection of miscellaneous quotes. Emeraude (talk) 18:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Or inprove the current section? Why is this so hard to do? Yes it does need to be worked on by someone whu has read the articles, but it should not say why the BNP are fascist, that is an opinion, it should say they have (but denieed) been accused of being (presenting all the evidacen in a NPOV way to enable the reader to make up his own mind) fascist. It odd that you accuse other editors of wanting to remove any mention, but have removed this section yourself. I want the section in, I put it in, I added additional comments. Yes its a section of quotes, so inprovew it.Slatersteven (talk) 14:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry but you judge my comment harsley.... There are always two sides to a point of view, or citeable comments, the BNP is moving into mainstream politics and shouting.. facsist fascist is not really encyclopedic content. Off2riorob (talk) 18:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

In the policy section it should be simple; present the details of what is contained within their policy. For instance "In their manifesto, the BNP has said such and such" or "while MEPs and part of the London Assembly, the party has such and such". Utilising Herbert Marcuse's critical theory, by using big, distracting words in an attempt to blacklist (in this case manifest political opponents falling over themselves screaming "fascist! fascist!"), without actually presenting to the reader what their policy is at all, in a section which is called "policy", surely is not NPOV. If the "Fascism" WP:BLP section is kept it should be merged into the "opposition" section. - Yorkshirian (talk) 21:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Big push before the question time appearance eh lads? --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe nobody add the 2009 Copsey book - people should keep an eye out for this popping up in 2010. it's great that the article has so many high quality sources to add. --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

the lede

The lede is a general overview of the important aspect of the BNP, the long list at the end of the leader of the other parties each with a seperate cite doea not belong in the lede, it is basically a list of people saying why they don't like the BNP and that is not what the lede is for. Off2riorob (talk) 18:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Such information should be in the opposition section. Unless its what makes the BNP notable, the fact that poeple do not like them.Slatersteven (talk) 18:15, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there will be any opposition to this as it is supported by policy, feel free to move the list to there if you would. Off2riorob (talk) 18:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Thats a good edit Stephen,the lede looks a lot better now. Off2riorob (talk) 18:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The change is not supported by policy, it is contradicted by policy. The lead has to be NPOV, and what was left was basically little more than large extracts from the BNP's constitution, and no mention of any opposition to them. I have trimmed the list down so it matchs its original intent, to show that the leaders of the three major parties oppose the BNP. Sadly when leadership changes took place people left the old leaders in rather than removing them. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:48, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I was not aware that listing opposition was a reuqirement of NPOV, moreover the lead is about what is most notable about the party (such as acusations that they are reacist) not that they are not liked by their oponents. It makes more sence to put this section in the opposition section, with a line about it in the lead perhpas.Slatersteven (talk) 12:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is it that people go and edit the article to their prefered content and then only after that they then come to the talkpage to explain why they did it? It is imo, excessive worthless and nothing to do with npov whatever, its not even really notable, so the three opposition leaders are against the bnp, well well well.. Lists of critism of the subject have no value in the lede. imo Off2riorob (talk) 13:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I suggest having a read of WP:CONSENSUS, specifically how it works. You do not get to make unilateral changes then have other people get consensus on the talk page to change it back. Having a lead bereft of mention of opposition to the BNP and instead having lengthy excerpts from their constitution is not neutral. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Nuetral means it does not take sides, so unless there is praise (or mention of praise) for thye BNP then there is no reason to mention critisism.Slatersteven (talk) 14:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes yes,,,have a read and thanks for the link, whatever, if there is a discussion on the talkpage regarding an issue as there was here , to first edit to your preffered version and then come here to talk about it is....a poor way to join in the discussion. It would have been nice if you would have joined the discussion and offered your opinion but you didn't. Off2riorob (talk) 15:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

It does not say on the labour party lede that the tories think they are rubbish does it? no it doesn't, it doesn't say on the condervative party lede that the labour leader things they are right wing fools does it? no it doesn't..and a long list of negative comments from leaders of opposition parties that don't like the bnp does not belong in the lede here either. Off2riorob (talk) 17:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

There's not nearly enough criticism of the BNP in the lede at the moment. The most notable thing about the BNP is that they are condemned by almost all mainstream parties and political organizations. Not mentioning this in the lede is a serious POV issue.VoluntarySlave (talk) 17:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

That is not notable and also is not required to be in the lede, what...people don't like them....The article is I would say actually pov ed in a negative way towards the bnp so there is pleanty of critism in the article without stuffing it in the lede, shall we also put inthe lede that john and harry do like them... no it is in the article and actually not having in in the lede allows people to move to the body of the article and read there. Off2riorob (talk) 17:43, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course the other parties don't like them, what is notable there? Do we also have to add in the lede that more that one million people not only liked them at the euro election but actually voted for them? Off2riorob (talk) 17:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

WTF are john and harry, or is that John and Harry? Do we mention in the lead that in the last general elections 99.3% voted against them? I detect some POV here that seems suspiciously like BNP timewasting tactics as seen here before. I hope I'm wrong. Emeraude (talk) 18:12, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

And by the way, it was less than one million - 943,598 to be precise. Emeraude (talk) 18:15, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, on the talk I was rounding up. I am of the opinion that this party is moving into mainstream politics and as such is also moving its policies towards the mainstream and we need to reflect that, screaming .. facist fascist is no longer going to make this party go away. Off2riorob (talk) 18:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Mathematically, even rounding up, it's not over a million as you said. There is no evidence beyond your opinion that the party is moving to the mainstream, merely that it is attempting to present an image of being less extreme. Image is not the same as reality. Emeraude (talk) 18:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't want to move too far to OR, but the bnp is clearly moving its policies and statements into the mainstream as would be politically expected if you want to become mainstream. Off2riorob (talk) 18:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Usersnowed has replaced the non notable critisism to the lede with the edit summary... (restore, take controversial changes to talk page)... and he has not even made one comment here...what bigotry. suggesting to take it to the talk page when there is clearly a big discussion here already and he (USER snowed ) has not even commenyed. Off2riorob (talk) 20:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I do find it amusing that an obvious BNP support calls other people bigots. WP:BRD makes it clear, you have to gain consensus to make a change opposed by other editors. The opposition to your edits is well stated above. --Snowded ^TALK 04:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

what rubbish...ow gordon brown says he doesnt like them and david cameron says he doesnt like them and nick clegg also says he doesnt like them. Perhaps adding that to the lede will make a more imformative article Off2riorob (talk) 21:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear, this is going in a typical way. The lead is not my preferred lead, the lead is the consensus lead, that section has been there for two and a half years. If you want to remove part of it, you get consensus. You do not get to change it, then demand other people discuss it before adding it back. Your comments above are quite the most ignorant comments I've seen on here, and that's up against some pretty stiff opposition. You say there's plenty of detail about opposition in the article so we don't need to put any in the lead, erm hello!?! The lead is supposed to summarise the article, therefore because there's plenty of detail in the article it also needs to be covered in the lead. The previous lead was little more than an advert for the BNP. NPOV does not dictate that the lead is free from negative material, in fact NPOV dictates that the lead must be a neutral summary of the article. The bottom line is if you want to remove it them you get consensus for removal, before editing against consensus gets you another block for edit warring. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

sunday live interview

The full interview is now oonline here it is perhaps it is useful for additions or to be added as an external link. Off2riorob (talk) 12:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Economic and Foreign policy

I'm trying to sort out the policy section to have it into three sections "Social, Economic and Foreign", but Verbal is playing up. First of all hes wholesale reverting attempts to create these sections on their policy and second of all he is violating WP:NPOV and WP:BLP by putting a section called "fascism" into the policy section, which is more about opponents name calling, rather than a presentation of this parties stated political policies. Discuss. - Yorkshirian (talk) 20:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

more from the lede

what does this mean? ... "The party's racial policies have led to their ostracism by mainstream politicians".. Off2riorob (talk) 21:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The more I look at this the more it seems wrong, to be ostrasized you would first have to be in with those people, this is not correct, .. the bnp have been ....?.... by mainstream politians? also is it or or opinion or what? that this ostrasization is due to the bnp's racial policies ? Off2riorob (talk) 22:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Reading the citation, I found the comment.. Robert Cockroft, editor of the Barnsley Chronicle, believes mainstream politicians must start engaging, not ostracising, the BNP.

I think that we need to attribute the comment to him. Off2riorob (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

but when you do that.... Robin Cockcroft an editor of the Barnsley Chronicle was quoted as saying he believed that mainstream politicians must start engaging, not ostracising, the BNP.

looking at the article addition to the article and the actual comment in the citation, I would say the comment has been taken out of context, and when put nto context correctly as I have here, it is not really noteworthy of inclusion in the lede at all. Also it looks like OR to specifically state that the so called ostrasization is as a fact because of their racist policies. Off2riorob (talk) 22:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

So then what we have is that this ostrasization comment is added to the leaders of the three parties to give us this....

The party is ostracised by mainstream politicians and the leaders of Westminster's major parties,[22] including Conservative Party leader David Cameron,[23] Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Liberal Democrat party leader Nick Clegg.[24]

The vast majority of which is not covered in the citation and seems to me 2 plus 2 is 4. Its a poor addition. Off2riorob (talk) 22:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Any comments? Off2riorob (talk) 22:45, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Excessive citations in the infobox to support fasist position

Lets see... there were 5 citations in the infobox to support accusations of facsism...user cameron has seen the necessesity to add another,,, now there are 6..Off2riorob (talk) 21:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC) and...clegg and brown and cameroon don't like them. Off2riorob (talk) 22:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes and? High quality academic sources are always welcome at wikipedia, they are top-rated type of source we use. You want the article to be well-sourced don't you? A common criticism of the sources is that "well they have changed", the source I added is a 2nd ed of a book that was released a couple of months ago - you want the most accurate, more recent high quality sources don't you? You aren't advocating removing the most recent high-quality sources are you? When the 2010 book I mentioned above come out, I have a copy on pre-order and we can add that as well. --Cameron Scott (talk) 22:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

NO. WP:synthesis comes to mind it seems the more soucres which say similar things, the easier it is to get them to say what is wanted, by the POV pushers.--Lucy-marie (talk) 22:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Synthesis is when an editor takes two references and adds them together to make a novel conclusion, there is no synthesis in saying "book X says Y". Where is the Synthesis? I suggest you reread WP:SYN because you don't seem to understand what it says. --Cameron Scott (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that there is a groundswell of support for this party and there are citations for that, I also think that to report fairly is the way t go with this, people have been throwing accusations of fassism and they are only getting more popular, I support a honest reporting of their position which will result in people being able to honestly judge for thenm selves, mud slinging and name calling seems to be increasing the parties popularity. Off2riorob (talk) 22:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)::

Sounds like original research to me - we simply report on what mainstream reliable sources say - with academic references being the top of the tree as far as wikipedia policy is concerned. The support for the party is neither here nor there in regards to the reliable sources describing them as a fascist party. If suddenly mainstream reliable sources stated that they were no longer a fascist party, we'd change the article to reflect that - otherwise, it's just not going to happen. --Cameron Scott (talk) 22:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Please try to make an edt and stick to it, your alterations give repeated edit conflicts, ta Your addition to the fasssisst collection is very poor and adds nothing of value to the article, there are already five citations supporting that in the infobox and your desire to add another simply reveals your personal position, as I said it is childish mudslinging like this that is weakening this wikipedia article and strengthening the party. Off2riorob (talk) 22:21, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

T o be clear to you user cameron scott, there were already 5 cites in the infobox to support claims of fassssisim and you felt ther need to add a 6th.... your addition adds nothing of value tooot he article, actually it just makes it a little bit more ..less neutral.. no one will ever cli8ck on the link you hacve added..excessive pov pushing links like the one you have added do nothing but demean the wiki.Off2riorob (talk) 22:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes it does, one of the common planks of the attempts to remove it is that the party has changed and the academic evidence is out of date. Providing a bang upto reference, hopefully settles that (of course it will not... but one can hope...). --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Why are there so many citations for fascism in the infobox? Because BNP apologists continuously rejected the description and demanded sources. Once provided, they refused to read them but claimed the sources were no good/out of date/insufficient in number etc etc etc. As noted above, academic references are the gold standard for Wikipedia. Incidentally, I have thoroughly searched the academic journals and found no source that says the BNP was not or is not fascist. Repeat, no source. Emeraude (talk) 10:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

feel free to add more, if you think it is needed. Off2riorob (talk) 17:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

This cite in the lede is not a wp reliable

This cite in the lede is not a wp reliable the mirror? ..Off2riorob (talk) 23:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Myself I dont think such as this is really at all encyclopedic..if you think it is please say..Off2riorob (talk) 23:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

We are generally careful with tabloids in BLPs where they make statements about living figures. However, a direct statement from an individual and where there is no evidence or suggestion it has been altered is generally fine. --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

What Cameron said. I don't actually think you've thought this through to be honest. Either you're saying an article by Gordon Brown is not a reliable source for Gordon Brown's opinion, or you're saying the Mirror have made up an article and pretended the Prime Minister wrote it, which would get them into just a slight amount of trouble. Neither explanation is particularly credible is it? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:30, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The article is attributed to Gordon Brown, no paper would do that untruthfully. No I thihnk we can say that he wrote this (or at least put his name to it).Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

That paper is awful and I dislike seeing it cited, surely there is a better cite? There is no issue that these people have said they dislike the bnp, I imagine they were/are queing up to say that, 17:23, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a Telegraph quote where he describes them as a party of nazis who would have supported Hitler - I'll swop it out if you like? --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:24, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no need. Personel dislike of a source does not ijn and of itself render it unreilaible. Unless it can be shown that this is not Gordon Browns own words there is no need to replace it.Slatersteven (talk) 17:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I would say add it as well if user slaterstephen likes the mirror cite.Or place it here please and i'll have a look and see what is written there Off2riorob (talk) 19:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Unjustified revert?

Revision 320975441 by Boxersoft was undone by FormerIP with the comment 'Please don't remove sourced material without discussion'. As far as I'm aware, that revision added a reference and removed nothing - at least that was my intention when making the edit. Explain please? Boxersoft (talk) 10:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Boxersoft. You removed the following: "It is generally considered a far-right party, although it has been argued that its policies have little in common with right-wing politics." This came with a source. Your removing it may be justified (I'd say the source is weak), but it really ought to be discussed, particularly with such a disputed article. --FormerIP (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

No, that's what I added - you removed it by reverting! Boxersoft (talk) 19:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Apolgies. I'll concede that's not a goof start! However, what you did delete was the shorter but far more significant two word phrase "right-wing". The cite you added from Daniel Hannan (who, as a political opponent of the BNP should not, I suggest, be taken as a reliable source as to facts about it) does not support the wording you added. He does not explicitly say that the policies of the BNP "have little in common with right-wing politics", he says "the BNP doesn't call itself Right-wing", which is saying something slightly different. --FormerIP (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I did not delete the phrase 'right-wing' - it didn't even appear in the text I edited. The phrase 'far-right' did, and I was careful to leave it intact, merely moving it into a separate sentence. I made no judgement on Hannan's position, I merely reported it, which I believe to be very much in keeping with Wikipedia's neutral POV policy. I grant you that his article doesn't include the exact phrase "little in common with right-wing politics" but it is an accurate and reasonable representation of the article whose title ('There's nothing right-wing about the BNP') would be less suitable in the body of an encyclopaedia entry. It wasn't presented as a quotation, and a verbatim quotation was provided in the body of the footnote, along with a link to the full article.

I contend that the addition I made was relevant, NPOV and in all respects perfectly in keeping with Wikipedia's policies; its removal was unjustified, and apparently in error. You originally claimed that you reverted my edit because you thought I had removed something unreasonably. You have now realised that in fact it was your action which removed the very text that you were seeking to restore. Surely the only honourable course of action is to accept that you made an honest mistake and replace that which you removed in error.

BNP membership leaks

BNP membership has been controversial among politicians. on 20th October 2009, The guardian and many other main stream media companies reported a possible leak of the BNP membership on wikileaks. the membership was also available on wikileaks as late as 13:00hrs, achieve is provided on this or this. Prince Waters (talk page) 13:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It is apparently cvery popular as wikileaks has crashed. Apparently there are 16,000 names by the BNP only has a little under 12,000 members. It seems another disgruntled former BNP member is reponsible.--Streona (talk) 14:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, when the bnp (as it is doing at the moment) comes in line with all legal requirements that the bnp will be able to request the its members are not given any action (the police don't allow membership) as to do that would be unfair to the members of what is about to become a totally legal constitution. I think that we should remove the whites only tag as membership under those conditions are closed, and the party has agreed to change that. Off2riorob (talk) 20:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

BNP insists 'member list' is a hoax [8] Off2riorob (talk) 20:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Recent links

Recent links for research.

Griffin: The Generals Have Got It Wrong, sky video oct 20 2009 [9]

BNP's Griffin: Islam is a cancer [10]

Who voted BNP and why? [11]

Who's afraid of the BNP? [12]

Griffin: The Generals Have Got It Wrong, sky video oct 20 2009 [13]