Talk:Amish

Individualism

It seems to me that the following section is just one interpretation of Amish humility (and individualism for that matter). (Also, there doesn't seem to be much on Amish theology.)

"The Amish's willingness to submit to the Will of God, expressed through group norms, is at odds with the individualism so central to the wider American culture. The Amish anti-individualist orientation is the motive for rejecting labor-saving technologies that might make one less dependent on community. Modern innovations like electricity might spark a competition for status goods, or photographs might cultivate personal vanity." 00:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Medical Expences

"In 1997, Mary Kuepfer, a young Amish woman in Milverton, Ontario, Canada, was struck in the face by a beer bottle believed to have been thrown from a passing car;[73] she required thousands of dollars' worth of surgery to her face (which was paid for by an outpouring of donations from the public)." This doesn't make any sense, if she was canadian then her medical expenses would have been covered there would have been no need for donations from the public??—Preceding unsignedcomment added by unknown author )

It states in the article "Amish do not buy insurance nor accept government assistance, such as Social Security". Flashleg8 (talk) 13:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Use of money?

How would Amish be able to take buses or trains if they don't accept the use/transfer of money? (Mentioned in the modern technology section.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Memprime (talk • contribs) 12:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The article says they don't use money ON SUNDAYS. I do not know whether that's true or not, but they certainly use money the rest of the time. DavidOaks (talk) 13:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you disagree with any of the issues, leave a comment after the specific issue and I'll be happy to discuss/agree with you. To keep tabs on your progress so far, either strike through the completed tasks or put checks next to them.

Needs inline citations:

1. "Ohio has the largest population (55,000), followed by Pennsylvania (39,000) and Indiana (37,000)."
   • All population figures updated and referenced.[1] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
2. "Some Beachy Amish have relocated to Central America, including a large community near San Ignacio, Belize."
   • I addressed this by removing the material as slightly off-topic.[2] If relevant, it could be covered in Beachy Amish. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 12:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
3. "The former Western Ontario Mennonite Conference (WOMC) was made up almost entirely of former Amish who reunited with the Mennonite Church in Canada."
   • Reference provided.[3] That whole paragraph should really be dropped as off-topic and not all that helpful for understanding the topic. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 11:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
4. "Amman insisted upon this practice, even to the point of expecting a spouse to refuse to eat with the banned member until he/she repented of his/her behaviour."
   • No source was found that says this directly, but it is a reasonable conclusion and is echoed in current practice. A source providing the background of Anabaptist shunning, including this very argument of spouse shunning, and Ammann's support of the strictest forms is provided.[4] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 15:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
5. "Because the Amish are the result of a division with the Mennonites, some consider the Amish a conservative Mennonite group."
   • This has been addressed by rewording to clarify the relationship between the two groups and providing a source for Amish becoming Mennonites.[5] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 18:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
6. "No Old Order movement ever developed in Europe; these communities are all in the Americas."
   • This statement was dropped. The decline of the Amish in Europe and origination of "Old Order" adequately covered in remainder of the section. Some clarification and a source added.[6] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
7. "It is also the proximate cause for rejecting education beyond the eighth grade, especially speculative study that has little practical use for farm life but may awaken personal and materialistic ambitions."
   • This is not an accurate summary of the reason for limiting education. It has been dropped.[7] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 12:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
8. "The Amish often cite three Bible verses that encapsulate their cultural attitudes:"
   • Reworked and sourced.[8] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 03:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
9. "Some of the strictest Old Order Amish groups are the Nebraska Amish ("White-top" Amish), Troyer Amish, the Swartzendruber Amish."
   • Source provided.[9] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 02:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
10. "Shunning is also sometimes imposed by bishops on church members guilty of offenses such as using forbidden technology. Church members may also be called to confess before the congregation."
    • Edited for accuracy; source provided.[10] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 00:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
11. "Those who come to be baptized sit with one hand over their face, to represent their submission and humility to the church."
    • Reference provided.[11] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 21:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
12. "Weddings are typically held on Tuesdays and Thursdays in November to early December, after the harvest is in."
    • Source provided.[12] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 16:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
13. "The deceased are dressed by family members of the same sex: men and unmarried women in white clothing, and married women in their wedding outfits."
    • Slightly reworded and sourced.[13] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 12:09, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
14. "A church district is measured by the number of families (households), rather than by the number of baptized persons. "
    • Source provided.[14] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 03:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
15. "Once a couple has married, it is understood that the most important family function is childbearing."
    • Reworked and a source provided.[15] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 12:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
16. "In some communities, the church leaders meet annually to review such proposals. In others, it is done whenever necessary."
    • Nailed this one down using Pennsylvania as a model.[16] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 18:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
17. "Many Amish communities also accept the use of chemical pesticides and GM crops, forgoing more common Amish organic farming techniques."
    • Clarified and source added.[17] "Organic farming" now has a specific meaning; the original editor may have intended a meaning more in line with "traditional farming techniques." ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
18. "In the 1970s, for example, a farmer near Milan Center, Indiana, was ordered by his bishop to buy a conventional tractor. He had severe progressive arthritis, and with no sons to harness the horses for him, the tractor was seen as a need, rather than a vanity. The rest of the community continued farming with horses."
    • This has been replaced with several other examples and their sources.[18] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:00, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
19. "Hiring a taxi is forbidden on Sundays, as is any transfer of money."
    • Moved to Sunday service section, expanded and provided a source.[19] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 12:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
20. "It is not descended from the Dutch language, but is closest to the German dialect Schwäbisch or Swabian," This has been tagged since September 2007.
    • This could not be verified and was replaced with a more reliable statement.[20] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 14:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
21. "The restriction on buttons is attributed in part to their association with military uniforms, and also to their potential for serving as opportunities for vain display."
    • Updated paragraph for accuracy and added source. The most reliable sources only mention tradition and vanity as reason for avoiding buttons.[21] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
22. "When a girl becomes available to be courted, she wears a black bonnet" This has been tagged since November 2007.
    • Age was confused with dating. Corrected and referenced.[22] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 17:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
23. "These unmarried women also wear a white cape." This has been tagged since November 2007.
    • Clarified and referenced.[23] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 17:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
24. "Single Amish men are clean-shaven; if they are available to court women, they will put a dent in their hat."
    • I addressed this by dropping the sentence.[24] The first part is adequately covered in the remainder of the paragraph. The second part about a dent in the hat may be from a single community or original research that will prove difficult to verify. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 03:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
25. "Moustaches are not allowed, because they are associated with the military, and because they give opportunity for vanity."
    • Referenced. Several sentences of original research or speculation removed.[25] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 15:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
26. "Some Amish are afflicted by heritable genetic disorders, including dwarfism (Ellis-van Creveld syndrome), have the highest incidence of twins in a human population, various metabolic disorders, and unusual distribution of blood-types."
    • Referenced.[26] "Highest incidence of twins" is dubious and has been removed. One source found it slightly lower than the general population.[27]. The most reliable sources are silent on the topic. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 12:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
27. "Ministers, certain church employees, and Christian Science practitioners may qualify for exemption under a similar clause."
    • The paragraph has been clarified and provided with additional references.[28] The above statement was dropped as off-topic for the article; the new IRS pub reference does cover it, should the reader choose to follow the link. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
28. "Despite the vast differences between the two groups, the French and Romanian version of the film Witness mistranslated "Amish" as "Mormon.""
    • This was dropped as stand-alone trivia that cannot be meaningfully integrated into the article.[29] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 17:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Other issues:

1. To better summarize the article, the lead needs to be expanded to three or four paragraphs. See WP:LEAD for guidelines.
   • Expanded.[30] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 01:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
2. "In 2000, there were approximately 198,000 Old Order Amish in the United States, according to calculations based on the number of church districts and average district size in Raber's Almanac." Can this statistic be updated with any more recent data?
   • Possibly not yet. The most reliable numbers currently are from 2000. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 13:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
3. "Most Old Order and conservative Amish groups do not proselytize, and conversion to the Amish faith is rare but not unheard of. The Beachy Amish, on the other hand, do pursue missionary work." I think that this should be moved to another section as it seems out of place here.
   • Done by consolidating all baptism and membership information in one section.[31] ✤ JonHarder ^talk 19:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
4. "Suicide rates for the Amish of Lancaster County were 5.5 per 100,000 in 1980, about half that of the general population." Is there any more current data for this statement? Also, are there statistics for other Amish communities?
   • All online sources seem to be based on this study and another of the same time frame and same population. The paragraph has been exapanded. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 19:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
5. Throughout the article there are several sentences that stand by themselves. They should either be expanded on or incporated into another paragraph.
   • These have all been addressed through the process of fixing the other problems, except for the Amish#Music section. I suggest it can be removed as trivia without a reliable, third-party source. I'll wait to see what other editors think. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 19:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProjects so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 08:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass

I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. Good job on addressing the issues (the diffs were really helpful by the way!). Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. It would also be beneficial to go through the article and update all of the access dates of the online inline citations and fix any dead links. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 04:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Three Wikicheers for JonHarder

Who really busted tail on this article, and whupped it into shape! DavidOaks (talk) 15:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Settlements?

It would be nice if somebody could add some list of Amish settlements into this article. 81.18.63.128 (talk) 00:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

That would be far too long a list. Perhaps the Population and distribution section could be expanded another paragraph or two, but I certainly wouldn't list every single settlement. Egads, Lancaster County alone could warrant a page all by itself. --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 00:53, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

And Holmes County Ohio is supposed to be larger then Langcaster County. -Joseph Slabaugh, examish.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.219.114.203 (talk) 15:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Child discipline

Are the details of the various implements used to chastise Amish kids' bottoms really necessary? It seems unnecessary to me, and I thought a reference to corporal punishment would be more useful. --Totorotroll (talk) 14:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Am I correct in thinking that text shouldn't be copied out word for word from a listed source? --Totorotroll (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you'd be correct in thinking that. 172.190.1.102 (talk) 09:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable populations

Some editors repeatedly add Davis County as notable w/o providing a source. There are some Amish there, but only a small part of a small population. Tedickey (talk) 12:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed

I have added some citation needed tags. They are intended to be helpful, and so I have commented in my edit summaries on each, rather than tag a whole section, or add all the tags in one edit. I believe in a low citation requirement, because citations obstruct the readability of the article, and too many citations obscure the most important ones. However, this article has quite a lot of statements of opinion, and implicit statistics, which Wikipedia cannot assert without attributing them to reliable secondary sources. I hope editors familiar with the sources will be able to address this, and hence improve the article. Geometry guy 22:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The paragraph about child labor laws seems to be contradicted by this [url]http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/youthlabor/employmentparents.htm[/url]

The paragraph on 'family life' has several sentences that appear to be copied (not verbatim, but quite close) from the book 'Amish Society' by John Hostetler (see page 145). 28/08/2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.108.246 (talk) 14:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Should Heading not be changed to 'Old Order Amish'?

Should the heading or title of this Wikipedia article not be changed to 'Old Order Amish' for clarity? A separate entry already exists for 'Amish Mennonite'. In my opinion, this would make this particular article a bit more focused. It should somehow be made clear that all 'Amish' are Amish Mennonites, but not all Amish Mennonites are 'Old Order'. The Old Order Amish are a branch of Amish Mennonites, just as Amish Mennonites are a branch of the Mennonites. Somehow it would be good if this could finally get clarified, with good sources cited. (I hope to work on this.) Names do indeed get confusing, and there is a real need here to get all of this straight. I recognize that many Amish and Mennonites do not even understand these names fully, nor the history of their origins. JMCooper (talk) 18:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I think it would add to the clarity since the article is about the Old Order Amish and not the Amish in general. I also think a separate section for the Swiss Amish would be helpful as the Swiss Amish not only are more conservative than most Old Order Amish, but they also use a different dialect of German. Quaker24 (talk) 06:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Inheritance of defects

The prevalence of Pyruvate Kinase (PK) deficinecy has been found high in the Mifflin County, Penn., Amish population.* PK deficinecy is an inherited enzymopathy of the glycolytic pathway of RBCs that causes chronic hemolytic anemia.

• Ref., Frye RE: PK deficiency.

(Mirhimeh (talk) 17:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC))

Might be unfair to the Amish, seeing as how they can't (or won't) edit this article.

But I guess they shouldn't, as it would be biased.

-\ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.79.193.59 (talk) 14:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

wow... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Punkhistoryteacher (talk • contribs) 23:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

$5?

Under education regarding a fine placed upon a Amish family the amount of the fine is said to be $5. They're are no sources I could find that say this amount and I was just wondering if this number is correct. $5 dollars does not seem like a standard fine and just checking to see if anyone can verify this. Sweetness46 (talk) 00:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

A pdf with full text of Wisconsin v Yoder decision at http://www.csustan.edu/cj/jjustice/CaseFiles/Wisconsin-v-Yoder.pdf (WISCONSIN v. YODER, 406 U.S. 205 (1972) Argued December 8,1971 Decided May 15, 1972) includes in the third paragraph: "On complaint of the school district administrator for the public schools, respondents were charged, tried, and convicted of violating the compulsory-attendance law in Green Country Court and were fined the sum of $5 each." Sounds like a fairly nominal or token fine, which was anyways reversed with this decision.

Religion

I notice there is little about the Amish theology. On visiting an Amish workshop I noticed a number of signs referring to belief and to God but no crosses or the name Jesus. How much is Jesus emphasized in Amish belief and ritual? LodovicoR (talk) 02:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention that the whole reason they are there is their religion... it deserves much more emphasis... and I'd definitely agree - more explanation on their theology.

Popular culture

Have removed numerous instances of TV series where individual episodes had storylines including Amish characters; figured that a properly cited article on "Amish in the Media" was enough; these sections become magnets for trivia. If there are series devoted to the subject, or documentaries, they of course belong (and have been added beyond Igou's list). DavidOaks (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Portrayal in popular entertainment - Film

You might also mention the 2007 film Saving Sarah Cain Kvsh5 (talk) 15:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Beachy Amish are mennonites or Amish?

The Beachy Amish can't be considered Amish for 3 main reasons.

First, they do missionary work which the Amish don't. Second, many of their communities have adapted into the surrounding mainstream society and some drive cars and use electric. Third, many among the Beachy Amish are becoming less conservative in their dress and not speaking PA German.

Some Beachy Amish communities are orthodox by Amish standards but increasingly many are unorthodox by Amish standards. So wouldn't it be better to lable the Beachy Amish as conservative mennonites rather then Amish (or even old order mennonites) as they are increasingly becoming Amish only in name?