Talk:Accidental (music)

Inflections vs accidentals

Further discussion: Talk:Circle of fifths#Introduction: Accidental sign

The symbols sharp, flat, natural etc are not called accidentals. "Accidentals" refers only to the use of such symbols to depart from the key signature. I've consulted 4 dictionaries of music, which give no generic term for them. The closest is The Oxford Companion to Music, which has a table of "Names of Inflections of Notes" at the front, but in the actual entry for "sharp" etc just calls it a symbol.

If we want to cover sharps, flats & naturals on one page, I suggest the name "Note inflection symbols", but we would need to specify that such a term is merely a Wikipedia invention for convenience. -- Tarquin

Harvard Dictionary of Music begins its entry for Accidental with

The signs used in musical notation to indicate chromatic alterations or to cancel them.

So this definitely agrees that the symbols themselves are accidentals. Wahoofive 00:25, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nope, not at all definitely. "Chromatic alteration" from what? From the existing sharps or flats in the key signature, which typically indicates a diatonic mode. In D major, neither a C sharp nor an F sharp is an accidental; they're just there, part of the tonal environment. Canceling one of those with a natural sign makes an accidental, a chromatic alteration from the diatonic major scale, same as flatting a B or sharping a G there would do. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Since "inflection" means change in pitch, the same rhetorical question arises, "change from what?" If accidental is inappropriate because it implies a change, what makes inflection different? Hyacinth (talk) 04:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

"Key signature: An arrangement of accidentals at the beginning of a staff..." Benward & Saker (2003). Music: In Theory and Practice, Vol. I, p.361. Seventh Edition. ISBN 978-0-07-294262-0. (Note, however, that the book avoids describing accidentals or key signatures in this manner within the body of the text) While it may not be literally and/or technically correct it appears to be fairly common usage to describe the flats and sharps in key signatures as accidentals. Hyacinth (talk) 04:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this quote. It appears to support a fourth sense of the term accidental:

1. "a note foreign to a key indicated by a signature" (Is a natural an accidental or not?)
2. "a prefixed sign indicating an accidental"
3. an accidental sign in the key signature (Benward & Saker) (This sense does not include the natural sign, IIUC.)
4. the black keys on a musical keyboard (Palmieri & Palmieri)

See also accidental.

--Jtir (talk) 20:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

and if you follow the musical Britannica link in that dictionary dot com "reference" (yes, I'm being snarky about that one, which is otherwise something I take pains to avoid online in general, and on wikipedia pretty rigorously) you will find it says something like "these signs when found in a key signature are not considered accidentals." __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's the quote, pasted from Britannica:

"Sharps or flats that are placed at the beginning
of a musical staff, called a key signature, 
indicate the tonality, or key, of the music
and are not considered accidentals."

__Just plain Bill (talk) 03:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The definitions concerning key signatures appear to refer only to "standard" key signatures. Hyacinth (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Key change notation

It's common engraving practise to put natural signs into the signature that changes key in mid-piece, either in the middle of a staff or system, or at the end of the staff/system just before the change. IIRC, going from G to C would have a natural on the F line; D major to minor would have two naturals and a flat. Going on sketchy memory here you see an example going from D to G in the middle of a line.

Also guessing when I say that tunes in sharp+flat key sigs (e.g. in Klezmer music, the D Freygish scale, which is written with two flats and a sharp) may have accidentals as well, that follow similar rules as diatonic notation does. __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for providing this example. It would make a useful addition to this article and to key signature. I am striking myself above and believe that what Benward & Saker are saying could be interpreted by disambiguating the term "accidental":

• "Key signature: An arrangement of accidentals [signs] at the beginning of a staff..."

Does their def encompass a key signature after a double bar in the middle of a staff? Or is their def, as Hyancith suggests, a kind of key sig that is "standard". With this interpretation, B&S could be defining a restricted sense of the term (perhaps to keep it simple?).

Not sure how to interpret EB, since their contributors are usually subject specialists, IIRC.

As editors we need to identify the different senses of the term, just as lexicographers do, even though dictionaries and other reference works are supposed to have already done that. :-)

--Jtir (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I looked at EB's article on "key signature" — they explicitly mention the double bar, yet restrict to sharps and flats. Unfortunately, they make it difficult to copy quotes. --Jtir (talk) 18:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica probably still deserves the high place it has on my reliability index, although this is the first time I've peeked at the online version. To me an encyclopedia is still eight to ten feet of shelf space taken up with thick quarto volumes, although my view of that is beginning to change.

In the image above, that C natural before the double bar is most definitely an accidental. I wouldn't hesitate to call the cluster of a natural and a sharp after that double bar a "key signature" and I wouldn't hesitate to call anyone who disagrees "wrong."

In a considerately engraved part, that double bar and its following natural/sharp key signature would come at the end of a line anyway, with the following staves showing a regular G signature. Sometimes ease of sight-reading takes second place to cramming as much on a page as possible. __Just plain Bill (talk) 19:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"that C natural before the double bar" — Thanks for pointing out this example. M-W's dic def doesn't seem to quite capture this case. TAHD implicitly mentions the natural sign. (It's 3rd from the top and never uses the words sharp, flat, or natural.)

Another source re natural signs in key sigs:

• "The only complicated key change is when you're changing to the key of C — which has no sharps or flats. You indicate this by using natural signs to cancel out the previous sharps or flats, like this:"

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory By Michael Miller

--Jtir (talk) 20:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

That brings up the issue of context. Note, for example, that the Britannica quote says, "considered accidentals". By who and in what context is Britannica discussing? Musical practice? Musical theory? Their own consideration? It sounds like sharp and flat signs may or may not be considered accidentals depending on where they appear, in the world of precise music theory and analysis, but that they are often called accidentals no matter where they appear, in the world of musical practice and associated theory. The issue of practice leads use to the question of purpose.

What is the use of distinguishing between the signs when they appear in key signatures, and in which case it is argued we have no word for them, and when they appear as "accidentals"? Hyacinth (talk) 19:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

That C natural is the accidental there, and the natural sign that marks it is not; it's just a natural sign. Is that a reactionary view? Didn't the signs themselves start out as neumes marking accidental notes, afterwards being used in key signatures? (Just saying; don't know.)

Or, shall we co-opt a word with a pre-existing meaning, and make it serve for a collective term we don't have, but feel a need for? Why do we need a special word for the category comprising sharps, flats, and naturals anyway? "Nice to have for technical discussions" or "making the taxonomy of musical signs hierarchically regular" do not count as "needs" in my opinion.

The simple fact I see here is that the great bulk of this signage occurs in "standard" diatonic music. In D minor, a B flat is not an accidental. In D major it would be. Anyway, my mission here is not to split musicological hairs, but to present something understandable by the intended audience; here I believe that to be folks who are interested in the basics of standard diatonic notation, and may find pointers to more esoteric topics more useful than in-line treatises on stuff that is way over their head. __Just plain Bill (talk) 20:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question more directly, I believe it is useful to that audience to make a difference between the tonal environment, mostly in a diatonic context but not necessarily in fixed-do C major, and the oddities that are exceptional in that environment, or accidentals. __Just plain Bill (talk) 20:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be the EB source for Bill's quote. A different EB def of "key signature" doesn't use the word "accidental". (Not sure why they differ — different editions?)

I feel the phrase "Sources vary ..." is in our future. :-) --Jtir (talk) 20:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"Accidentals. This comprehensive term is employed, for want of a better, to denote all sharps, flats, and naturals used apart from those in the key-signature." from "Musical Notation. Practical Ways of Expressing Details of Musical Composition. Section V. Accidentals (Continued)." H. Elliot Button. The Musical Times, Vol. 55, No. 861 (Nov. 1, 1914), pp. 652-653. Published by: Musical Times Publications Ltd. Hyacinth (talk) 20:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite

My rewrite still requires some work on the Turkish system, which I know nothing about, and the derivation of the symbols from medieval times.

I removed the following because it didn't seem to fit the topic, and in any case is simplified to the point of uselessness:

The rules for which accidentals to choose may vary according to the type of music: modal, diatonic or chromatic, and also whether the transcriber is aiming for strictness or clarity, for example C flat versus B in the key of D flat. Nonetheless, some general rules for choosing between flat or sharp accidentals include:

• When descending, use flats.
• When ascending, use sharps.
• Try to use the same kind of accidentals -- sharps or flats -- used by the key signature.

I also removed the following due to dubious accuracy; my experience is that C# is higher than Db:

On a piano or other equally tempered instruments with fixed tuning, a sharp and a flat are the same distance from the natural note in either direction (so that C sharp is the same as D flat - they are enharmonically equivalent), while instruments with flexible tuning such as violins or cellos are often played so they more closely approximate just intonation, meaning sharps tend to be lower and flats higher (so that C sharp is slightly lower than D flat).

The first part of this statement (about instruments with fixed tuning) is certainly correct. If there's disagreement about the second part, couldn't the statement be revised simply to say that C# and Db (for example) may not be the same? Dsreyn 14:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I also removed this because I couldn't figure out what it means (perhaps could be summarized in a few sentences about inconsistent use of symbols):

In some of the autographs of the 17th and 18th one does not notice the incoherence of the modern accidental notation, in which the value of the altered note does not depend on the key signature contrary to the value of the unaltered note, which, among other things, makes sight transposition more awkward that it ought to be.

In such scores (e.g. autographs by J.S. Bach) the value of the altered note does in fact (as it ought to) depend on the key signature. For example a flat sign before B means Bb in the key of C major but Bbb (B double-flat) in the key of F major. Similarly a sharp sign before A means Ab in the key of C major but A natural in the key of Eb major. A natural sign before B means B natural in the key of C major but Bb in the key of F major and it needs to be used only if the B had been previously flattened or sharpened. (Generally speaking the natural is always used to restore the value of the note to that of the key signature, never to cancel an accidental in the key signature.)

Not only does this manner of notating accidentals avoid the awkwardness in sight transposition alluded to above, but it also almost never requires the use of double-flats and double-sharps. Also the natural sign is always used to restore the value of the note to that of the key signature, never to cancel an accidental in the key signature.

Modern editions of course always change this style of marking accidentals to the modern style (in the case of full scores, not necessarily in the case of a figured bass, see below) even if the original score is notated in the old manner. But this style can still be seen in some editions for the notation of figured bass chords even today (or at least quite recently, long after this style of notation had been abandoned for scores.)

Finally, I removed this from the hexachord discussion:

(It might also have helped that H was the letter which followed G so that it completed the alphabetic series A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, but that is not the reason Germans use H for B natural, it is at best an a posteriori justification; rather the real origin is that stated above, namely a deformation of a square B)

Page move

It was suggested that this article should be renamed Accidental. The vote is shown below:

• Support Accidental (biology) is a redirect to a completely different term. No way is that as common a usage as the musical one. —Wahoofive (talk) 20:01, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

• Do not support Accidental (biology) is a redirect to an article which discusses the subject of accidentals in biology; however, because there is more than one term for the concept, a somewhat arbitrary choice had to be made for the title (or else two separate but identical articles would have had to be written). The substantive point here is that the article covers the subject, and follows Wikipedia convention in showing the synonymous redirecting term in bold in the first paragraph. As to which is the more common usage, I feel some evidence would help inform the discussion. - SP-KP 22:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 14:06, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

how many steps ?

I'm sorry but I seriously do not understand the sentence quoted below. Are you simply trying to say that G# is two semitones away from Gb ? Or are you inferring that a Gb becomes an F if there happens to be a G# in the same measure. I'm no expert but I do know a little bit about writing music -- and that does not sound right.

Thanks,

Note that in a few cases the accidental might change the note by more than a semitone: for example, if a G sharp is followed in the same measure by a G flat, the flat sign on the latter note means it will be two semitones lower than if no accidental were present. Thus, the effect of the accidental has to be understood in relation to the "natural" meaning of the note's staff position.

I agree that passage is unclear. What it intends to say is that although a flat sign normally lowers the note by a half step (from what the note would be without the accidental), if the prevailing accidental (whether from the key signature or a preceding accidental) is a sharp, the effect of the flat is to lower it two semitones: from the sharp to the natural, then to the flat. In fact, if there was a previous double-flat on the same note in that measure, the effect of the flat might be to raise the note, cancelling the double flat. I'm not entirely certain this information needs to be included at all, but that's what it's supposed to say. Editors are encouraged to edit it for clarity. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:35, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Viewing Problems

I seem to be having trouble on my computer viewing the symbols for the flat symbol, which is quickly replacing the lowercase b in usage. Could anyone direct me to where I can download a patch or program that will allow me to see them? Oh, and by the way, I'm running Windows XP and viewing with Internet Explorer v.6.0.2900.2180.wpsp_sp2_gdr.050303-1519IS. Thanks in advance! MToolen 03:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a problem with Internet Explorer. Other browsers, such as Firefox, Opera, and others, display these characters correctly. Any word on whether this works with current beta versions of IE 7? --Dbolton 02:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I downloaded IE 7 to answer my own question. This bug has not been fixed as of beta 3. Do Mac users have this problem too? --Dbolton 16:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

We created Template:Music to address this viewing problem that affects a significant number of users. For example {{music|sharp}} produces ♯ which should display correctly even in Internet Explorer.--Dbolton 21:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Sharp sign origin

The text on the bottom of this article tells the origin of the flat and natural signs, but does anyone have info on the origin of the sharp sign?? Georgia guy 22:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Sharp signs in a part-book by Victoria

The sharp is a variant of the natural sign, originally used to raise the Bb to B -- the two signs were used interchangeably in the 15th-16th centuries, and the natural sign was sometimes used to indicate F#. The flat sign was sometimes used to cancel a sharp -- even as late as Bach. A sign resembling our modern double-sharp was also used to indicate sharp. (Source: Harvard dictionary of music) —Wahoofive (talk) 06:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

A little more information about the predecessor of our "modern Western music" sharp sign: it is classified in The Unicode Standard (Musical Symbols section, range $1D100–$1D1FF) as a "croix" with the character code of $1D1CF. - NDCompuGeek (talk) 03:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Which way must an accidental go?

What is the rule governing the "direction" an accidental is notated?

For example, in the Bach piece shown in Musical notation, the first accidental (third measure) is a sharpened F. Could this be notated as a flattened G instead? And if not, why not? -- Paul Richter 07:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The accidentals are mostly governed by the key, and the function of the altered note. By writing an F# it is clear that a parallel sixth is used. (G-B -> F#-A). Zanaq 09:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Also see diatonic function, enharmonic. —Wahoofive (talk) 06:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

black keys of the Musical keyboard

The article Marimba refers to the non natural notes on the instrument as Accidentals. I found in Musical keyboard the same usage where the black keys are called Accidentals. This article doesn't mention this usage. It could be useful to add a paragraph mentioning it.-Crunchy Numbers 20:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Here are a few definitions and usage examples from http://books.google.com:

• "sharp ... (d) on a piano keyboard, one of the black keys ..." Musical Dictionary By W L Hubbard (1908 repr. 2006)
• "The ebonies are the black KEYS of a piano, called variously sharps or accidentals,..."

"The ivories are the white KEYS of the piano (also called naturals), ..."

Piano: An Encyclopedia By Robert Palmieri, Margaret W. Palmieri (2003)

• "The basic arrangement of naturals and interspersed, raised accidentals (the modern piano's white and black keys) was standardized long before 1700 ..." Eighteenth-Century Keyboard Music By Robert Lewis Marshall (ed.) (2003)
• "It is quite common for the natural keys to be black and the accidentals white, the reverse colouring to the modern piano; ..." Musical Instruments By Murray Campbell, Clive A. Greated, Arnold Myers (2004)
• "In order to indicate when the black keys on the keyboard are to be played, symbols called accidentals are used." p. 174

"The black keys were not originally felt to be an entirely legitimate part of the scale, the way the white keys were. They were sort of harmonic accidents." p. 15

A Player's Guide to Chords & Harmony By Jim Aikin (2004)

--Jtir (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Microtonal section - Sagittal accidentals

I would like to add something like the following to the end of the Mirotonal section, but I have a conflict of interest: The Sagittal notation system is a comprehensive system of mirotonal accidentals and the rules for applying them. It is capable of notating microtonal music in almost any tuning. It was developed by collaboration on the Yahoo groups "tuning" and "tuning-math" beginning in January 2002. D.keenan 00:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. And I have no conflict of interest. I not even sure I like Sagittal all that much... though I'm hardly qualified to pass judgement... Oh, and here Secor says he started developing Sagittal in August 2001, so that's the date I quoted. -- Rsholmes 04:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

On 27 March 2007 someone identified only as 76.81.164.27 deleted the mention of the Sagittal notation system, describing it as a "non-notable discussion of a nonstandard notational system". There is as yet, no standard microtonal notation system. But Sagittal seems to me to be no less standard and no less notable than Ben Johnston's notation for JI, whose mention was not deleted. D.keenan 01:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Do accidentals affect the staff position an octave away?

"Since about 1700, accidentals have been understood to continue for the remainder of the measure in which they occur, so that a subsequent note on the same staff position is still affected by that accidental, unless replaced by an accidental of its own. Notes on other staff positions, including those an octave away, are unaffected."

I do not claim to be the world's biggest music expert, but my understanding is that the position an octave away would be affected by the same accidental. So if middle C is sharped by an accidental, and then the C an octave above that were to appear later in the same measure with no accidental, it woul also be sharped. Maybe this is just something where different people have different standards, though. I also had the understanding that if the key signature has F sharped, then an F with a flat symbol would still be F-flat, not F-natural, although I can see how the latter standard would aid in sight transposition. GLmathgrant 18:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

For your first question, accidentals only affect their own octave. If a C in one octave is sharped, a subsequent C in another octave in the same measure must have a sharp; however, if it's not meant to be sharped, most editors consider a courtesy natural mandatory. In jazz it's quite common for a note to have different accidentals in different octaves, even in the same chord (e.g. an A7-alt chord would contain both a C sharp and a C natural), although editorial standards in jazz notation are, shall we say, lax.

An F with a flat sign in a piece whose key signature contains an F sharp (or when an F is sharped earlier in the measure) is considered an F-flat in modern notation, but in 17th- and 18th-century notation it often meant F-natural. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Chapter Suggestion

Should there be something on the different ways to annotate? For instance, unicode, <alt> combinations in Windoze, any special key combinations to the Mac, etc.... I remember reading somewhere on Wikipedia that there is a stylistic guidline for how to annotate, and one way is recommended above all others, but I forgot where I read it...

Just a humble suggestion.... NDCompuGeek 06:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say no. I think, by the way, "annotate" is not the word you're looking for. Anyway, sharp and flat signs are just particular instances of special characters, and "how to do special characters on your computer" is not really within the scope of an article on music. As for stylistic guidelines for Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (music). -- Rsholmes 11:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Stupid Question

As a non musician I have a stupid question. If there are seven natural notes (A to G inclusive) and each has a sharp and a flat then how do 21 notes (3*7) fit into a 12 note scale?

Given some of the comments above, and apparently by musically qualified people, I don't think I'm the only one confused by the notation. When are musicians going to come up with a clear, logical system of notation?--Quentin Durward (talk) 10:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

About the same time that English shifts to a klir, lajikel sistem of spelling. The answer to your question is that there is some duplication, at least on modern instruments. So G sharp and A flat are the same note, called an enharmonic. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

As explained in the article, on equaled tempered keyboard instruments, an A flat and G sharp are indeed the same pitch, but in theory, they are 2 different pitches with slightly different pitches. On instruments like violin and most wind instruments, where the player has the ability to alter the pitch, it is possible for skilled players to play these 2 notes as different pitches, at least in theory. In the past, before equal temperament became standard for keyboard instruments, there were other tempering system that either required retuning if you played in a different key, or occasionally had things like split keys to be able to play both A flat and G sharp Wschart (talk) 02:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Does raise/lower suffice?

I'm about to edit the lead, and lose "inflect," which connotes the kind of thing that might happen in scat singing, or vocalese, or Non-lexical vocables in music. I'm thinking of pitch-bending ornaments applied to a "single" note, such as:

• DESCENDING GLISSANDO, keep the real note for a while, then start with glissando and crescendo, enjoying chromatism.

• DOIT, a sort of long and big glissando pushed to the highest -non fixed- pitch you can.

• PLOP, similar to a ghost grace-note (often with a sound like "dwi"). It is performed by a quick downward slide to a given note from a large interval above.

• FLIP, a quick upward lift followed immediately by a rapid drop to the next note.

• DIP, between two notes: after tuning the first one, slide downwards and then go up again -like a glissando- to the second one (like with an olive in Martini!)

• SHAKE, a big tremolo between the written note and a higher pitch, at least a major second. It often includes a crescendo and an accelerando.

Found that here.

When I get time to fix all the incoming links, I intend to change the heading "Inflections vs accidentals" to "Accidentals & key signatures" or some such, since that's the way that discussion seems to have gone. __Just plain Bill (talk) 21:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not see how raise and lower are any more specific. Hyacinth (talk) 21:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you say more about that, please? The article says "symbol used to raise or lower the pitch of a note ..."

Now I'm going to add something about semitones to the lead. __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how your quote above supports the idea that inflection implies those techniques. I don't see how "raise" or "lower" implied not using those techniques. Hyacinth (talk) 23:57, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Quote wasn't meant to support, but illustrate. Wiktionary calls inflection a change in tone of voice, among other things. It also mentions curvature and turning. Could one call the tones used in e.g. Chinese and Vietnamese inflections? Some of those tones have a straight pitch contour, some are curved or even S-shaped.

Together with the nearby pitch and semitone links, "raise/lower" simply implies straight unbent, unvaried pitch. Ornamentation is another story, not forbidden, but not implied either. __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Would accidental signs ever be used to denote pitch changes of less than a semitone or ornamental changes like those listed above as inflections? --Jtir (talk) 00:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

"by a number of semitones": that's perfect — I never would have thought of that. --Jtir (talk) 00:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

comments on the lead

• As a reader of the lead, I would like to know why they are called "accidentals" (What accident?) and which changes (in pitch) are "accidental" and which changes are not (inflections?). (Likewise for the article body.)
• Some dictionaries distinguish an "accidental note" from an "accidental sign". The former is what is heard, the latter is what is written. The lead conflates the two.
• IMO, this article could use a lead longer than one sentence:

• "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article."
• The lead does not explicitly name any of the accidental signs.
• The lead makes no mention of notations for non-Western and microtonal tuning.
• The lead gives no indication that the use and interpretation of accidental signs in notated music is subject to complex rules and that sometimes courtesy accidentals are provided where the rules do not require them. (Who makes these rules? How are they formally documented? Why are courtesy accidentals needed at all?)
• The lead makes no mention of the history of the notation, which can be traced back to Gregorian chant in which only the note B could be altered, or that modern accidental signs are variations of the letter B.

• "Black keys" are not mentioned anywhere else in the article, so the second sentence does not count as a summary. It does suggest a way to expand the article. There are several sources listed above that document this use of the term "accidental", some giving interesting and enlightening historical context.

--Jtir (talk) 17:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for standing back and looking at a bigger picture. I confess I hadn't noticed how short the lead was. I knocked together a sandbox draft which seemed OK to me, so I went ahead with it into the article. It doesn't mention the history, and I'm OK whether it does or not. Carry on, guys, hammer away... __Just plain Bill (talk) 20:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Nice work. That is way beyond anything I could hope to do. I like the way you phrased this: "most recently applied key signature".

Do you want to standardize on "sign" or "symbol"? Note uses "sign" in the lead and "symbol" elsewhere.

I'm still wondering how accidentals are related to inflections or Musica ficta (if at all — there doesn't seem to be an article on musical inflections. Is that a non-standard or rarely used term? I saw the interesting list of inflection names, BTW).

--Jtir (talk) 21:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm content to use "sign" and "symbol" interchangeably here; keeps the text from getting dull, IMO. There may be specialists who distinguish the two words nicely, but an exploration of that would most likely TLDR in my view.

As I understand them, ficta are an early form of accidental, sometimes notated, but mostly applied by the performer based on rules that are now difficult to reconstruct, and were probably inconsistent even in the period of their use. __Just plain Bill (talk) 21:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

One thing I'm worried about is duplication of content/redundancy. A some of the information recently added to the lead is repeated in the next section.--Dbolton (talk) 04:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:LEAD says: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article.", which may be interpreted as saying that, for some readers, the full article is TLDR. --Jtir (talk) 13:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

"... the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, ...". (WP:LEADCITE)

There are some specific guidelines for the length of the lead here.

--Jtir (talk) 22:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Now that the history bit (Gregorian chant, the letter "B") is where it is, it's not so immediately repetitive. I can live with that. __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your additional improvements. That makes a very respectable lead.

I also like your explanation of courtesy accidentals. Later the article says that: "Publishers of jazz music and some atonal music sometimes eschew all courtesy accidentals." Is that notable?

If you can figure out a way to improve the history sentences (maybe combine into one), feel free. I like to read a little history and these explain the gist, but they don't quite cohere.

Dbolton, thanks for rearranging the lead. The word "canceled" is spelled inconsistently though. Which way do editors want to spell it in this article?

BTW, the problem I see with redundancy is maintaining consistency between the lead and the article.

--Jtir (talk) 23:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistent spelling doesn't bother me. I generally smite ignorant spelling with alacrity, but not with malice nor thinking less of the orthographically challenged, just with dispatch. Other fires to stomp out first.

Jazz/atonal eschewing of courtesy accidentals seems credible, in the spirit of "Play the music, not the chart, kid -- I ain't here to hold your hand, got my own problems."

If it's a consistent variation of editing style between genres, it's worth keeping mention of, IMO, subject as always to the need for citing somebody credible and reliable.__Just plain Bill (talk) 00:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for changing the spelling. Ignorance on my part. --Dbolton (talk) 03:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Count me among the ignorant ones, then. I'm still trying to come to terms with "logical punctuation." It made sense when I was ten, but years of schooling drilled it out of me. Now it's OK, and my little world crumbles. Shattered pieces picked up, boss, movin on with my life, boss. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Note-by-note accidentals

In the section discussing the alternative system for note-by-note accidentals (in which accidentals last for one note as opposed to an entire bar) the first "rule" read as follows:

"Accidentals affect only those notes which they immediately precede, and those notes that are within the same measure."

This is a contradiction...how can an accidental affect ONLY the note it precedes AND the notes within the same measure? I changed it to this:

"Accidentals affect only those notes which they immediately precede"

Which is much clearer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.102.30 (talk) 06:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I just tried to reword it for better clarity--Dbolton (talk) 05:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

That section cites Kurt Stone's Music Notation in the Twentieth Century as a source. Maybe it would be better to simply quote him directly. (Assuming he provides a similarly concise list of rules — I haven't seen his book.) --Jtir (talk) 21:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Accidental (music) "Collectively, the symbols used to mark such notes are called accidentals."

Excellent article!

A slight modification to the following sentence might be helpful.

In musical notation, the symbols used to mark such notes, sharps (♯), flats (♭), and naturals (♮), may also be called accidentals.

Would changing it to one of the following improve it a bit?

"Collectively, the symbols used to mark such notes are called accidentals."

or

"As a group, the symbols used to mark such notes are called accidentals."

71.232.143.181 (talk) 15:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Paul

Accidentals with Ornaments

One question to which I've not been able to find an answer (And I believe would belong on this page) regards the use of accidentals with ornaments (acciaccatura, appogiatura, etc). It seems to me in common notation that an accidental applied to an acciaccatura does not affect the following notes in the same measure.

If anyone can find an incorporate that information that'd be excellent.

Leemute (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Rules for what accidentals to use

What I came here to find, and did not, is a statement about whether any rules or conventions govern the use of accidentals in a particular key/key signature when a note does not "belong" to the given key signature. If such rules exist, what are they? For example, if I'm writing a piece in G, my staff is using the G/Em key signature, and I want someone to play the black key between D and E, do I speak of (and notate) D sharp or E flat? And, more importantly, why? To put the question another way, why is there a double sharped F in the Nocturne example, and not a G natural? Even if the answer is, "it's just willy nilly", then I think there ought to be some sort of statement about that. --Trweiss (talk) 18:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)