Talk:Climate change

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Frequently asked questions

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Q1: Is there really a scientific consensus on climate change?

A1: Yes. The IPCC findings of recent warming as a result of human influence are explicitly recognized as the "consensus" scientific view by the science academies of all the major industrialized countries. No scientific body of national or international standing presently rejects the basic findings of human influence on recent climate. This scientific consensus is supported by over 99% of publishing climate scientists.^[1]

Q2: How can we say climate change is real when it's been so cold in such-and-such a place?

A2: This is why it is termed "global warming", not "(such-and-such a place) warming". Even then, what rises is the average temperature over time – that is, the temperature will fluctuate up and down within the overall rising trend. To give an idea of the relevant time scales, the standard averaging period specified by the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) is 30 years. Accordingly, the WMO defines climate change as "a statistically significant variation in either the mean state of the climate or in its variability, persisting for an extended period (typically decades or longer)."^[2]

Q3: Can't the increase of CO₂ be from natural sources, like volcanoes or the oceans?

A3: While these claims are popular among global warming skeptics,^[3]^[4] including academically trained ones,^[5]^[6] they are incorrect. This is known from any of several perspectives:

Current human emissions of CO₂ are at least 100 times larger than volcanic emissions. Measurements of CO₂ levels over the past 50 years do not show any significant rises after eruptions.^[7] This is easily seen in a graph of CO₂ concentrations over the past 50 years: the strongest eruption during the period, that of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, produced no increase in the trend.
Isotopic analysis of atmospheric carbon dioxide shows the observed change in the ratio of carbon isotopes reflects the isotopic ratios in fossil fuels.^[8]
Atmospheric oxygen content is decreasing at a rate that agrees with the amount of oxygen being used to burn fossil fuels.^[9]
If the oceans were giving up some of their carbon dioxide, their carbon dioxide concentration would have to decrease. But instead we are measuring an increase in the oceans' carbon dioxide concentration, resulting in the oceans becoming more acidic (or in other words, less basic).^[10]

Q4: I think the article is missing some things, or has some things wrong. Can I change it?

A4: Yes. Keep in mind that your points need to be based on documented evidence from the peer-reviewed literature, or other information that meets standards of verifiability, reliability, and no original research. If you do not have such evidence, more experienced editors may be able to help you find it (or confirm that such evidence does not exist). You are welcome to make such queries on the article's talk page but please keep in mind that the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not discussing the topic. There are many forums that welcome general discussions of global warming, but the article talk page is not such a forum.

Q5: Why haven't the graphs been updated?

A5: Two reasons:

There are many images used in the articles related to global warming, and there are many reasons why they may not be updated with the latest data. Some of the figures, like the Global Warming Map, are static, meaning that they are intended to show a particular phenomenon and are not meant to be updated frequently or at all. Others, like the Instrumental Temperature Record and Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice Extent Anomalies, use yearly data and thus are updated once per year—usually in mid- to late-January, depending upon when the data is publicly released, and when a volunteer creates the image. Still others, like Mauna Loa Carbon Dioxide, use monthly data. These are updated semi-regularly.
However, just because an image is 6 months or a year old does not mean it is useless. Robert A. Heinlein is credited with saying, "Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get", meaning that climate is defined as a long-term average of weather, usually about 30 years. This length was chosen to eliminate the year-to-year variations.^[11] Thus, in terms of climate change, any given year's data is of little import.

Q6: Isn't climate change "just a theory"?

A6: People who say this are abusing the word "theory" by conflating its common meaning with its scientific meaning. In common usage, "theory" can mean a hunch or guess, but a scientific theory, roughly speaking, means a coherent set of explanations that is compatible with observations and that allows predictions to be made. That the temperature is rising is an observation. An explanation for this (also known as a hypothesis) is that the warming is primarily driven by greenhouse gases (such as CO₂ and methane) released into the atmosphere by human activity. Scientific models have been built that predict the rise in temperature and these predictions have matched observations. When scientists gain confidence in a hypothesis because it matches observation and has survived intense scrutiny, the hypothesis may be called a "theory". Strictly speaking, scientific theories are never proven, but the degree of confidence in a theory can be discussed. The scientific models now suggest that it is "extremely likely" (>95%) to "virtually certain" (>99%) that the increases in temperature have been caused by human activity as discussed in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report. Global warming via greenhouse gases by human activity is a theory (in the scientific sense), but it is most definitely not just a hunch or guess.

Q7: Does methane cause more warming than CO₂?

A7: It's true that methane is more potent molecule for molecule. But there's far less of it in the atmosphere, so the total effect is smaller. The atmospheric lifetime of methane (about 10 years) is a lot shorter than that of CO₂ (hundreds to thousands of years), so when methane emissions are reduced the concentration in the atmosphere soon falls, whereas CO₂ accumulates in the atmosphere over long periods. For details see the greenhouse gas and global warming potential articles.

Q8: How can you say there's a consensus when lists of "skeptical scientists" have been compiled?

A8: Consensus is not the same as unanimity, the latter of which is impractical for large groups. Over 99% of publishing climate scientists agree on anthropogenic climate change.^[1] This is an extremely high percentage well past any reasonable threshold for consensus. Any list of "skeptical scientists" would be dwarfed by a comparably compiled list of scientists accepting anthropogenic climate change.

Q9: Did climate change end in 1998?

A9: One of the strongest El Niño events in the instrumental record occurred during late 1997 through 1998, causing a spike in global temperature for 1998. Through the mid-late 2000s this abnormally warm year could be chosen as the starting point for comparisons with later years in order to produce a cooling trend; choosing any other year in the 20th century produced a warming trend. This no longer holds since the mean global temperatures in 2005, 2010, 2014, 2015 and 2016 have all been warmer than 1998.^[12] More importantly, scientists do not define a "trend" by looking at the difference between two given years. Instead they use methods such as linear regression that take into account all the values in a series of data. The World Meteorological Organisation specifies 30 years as the standard averaging period for climate statistics so that year-to-year fluctuations are averaged out;^[2] thus, 10 years isn't long enough to detect a climate trend.

Q10: Wasn't Greenland much warmer during the period of Norse settlement?

A10: Some people assume this because of the island's name. In fact the Saga of Erik the Red tells us Erik named the new colony Greenland because "men will desire much the more to go there if the land has a good name."^[13] Advertising hype was alive and well in 985 AD.

While much of Greenland was and remains under a large ice sheet, the areas of Greenland that were settled by the Norse were coastal areas with fjords that, to this day, remain quite green. You can see the following images for reference:

A map of the Eastern Settlement
A satellite image of that area today
A map of the Western Settlement
A satellite image of that area today
A zoom in on the general area where the Brattahlíð (Erik the Red's farm) and Garðar farms were located

Q11: Are the IPCC reports prepared by biased UN scientists?

A11: The IPCC reports are not produced by "UN scientists". The IPCC does not employ the scientists who generate the reports, and it has no control over them. The scientists are internationally recognized experts, most with a long history of successful research in the field. They are employed by various organizations including scientific research institutes, agencies like NASA and NOAA, and universities. They receive no extra pay for their participation in the IPCC process, which is considered a normal part of their academic duties.

Q12: Hasn't global sea ice increased over the last 30 years?

A12: Measurements show that it has not.^[14] Claims that global sea ice amounts have stayed the same or increased are a result of cherry picking two data points to compare, while ignoring the real (strongly statistically significant) downward trend in measurements of global sea ice amounts.

Arctic sea ice cover is declining strongly; Antarctic sea ice cover has had some much smaller increases, though it may or may not be thinning, and the Southern Ocean is warming. The net global ice-cover trend is clearly downwards.

Q13: Weren't scientists telling us in the 1970s that the Earth was cooling instead of warming?

A13: They weren't – see the article on global cooling. An article in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society has reviewed the scientific literature at that time and found that even during the 1970s the prevailing scientific concern was over warming.^[15] The common misperception that cooling was the main concern during the 1970s arose from a few studies that were sensationalized in the popular press, such as a short nine-paragraph article that appeared in Newsweek in 1975.^[16] (Newsweek eventually apologized for having misrepresented the state of the science in the 1970s.)^[17] The author of that article has repudiated the idea that it should be used to deny global warming.^[18]

Q14: Doesn't water vapour cause 98% of the greenhouse effect?

A14: Water vapour is indeed a major greenhouse gas, contributing about 36% to 70% (not 98%) of the total greenhouse effect. But water vapour has a very short atmospheric lifetime (about 10 days), compared with decades to centuries for greenhouse gases like CO₂ or nitrous oxide. As a result it is very nearly in a dynamic equilibrium in the atmosphere, which globally maintains a nearly constant relative humidity. In simpler terms, any excess water vapour is removed by rainfall, and any deficit of water vapour is replenished by evaporation from the Earth's surface, which literally has oceans of water. Thus water vapour cannot act as a driver of climate change.

Rising temperatures caused by the long-lived greenhouse gases will however allow the atmosphere to hold more vapour. This will lead to an increase in the absolute amount of water vapour in the atmosphere. Since water vapour is itself a greenhouse gas, this is an example of a positive feedback. Thus, whereas water vapour is not a driver of climate change, it amplifies existing trends.

Q15: Is the fact that other solar system bodies are warming evidence for a common cause (i.e. the sun)?

A15: While some solar system bodies show evidence of local or global climate change, there is no evidence for a common cause of warming.

A 2007 National Geographic article described the views of Khabibullo Abdusamatov, who claims that the sun is responsible for global warming on both Earth and Mars.^[19] Abdussamatov's views have no support in the scientific community, as the second page of the National Geographic article makes clear: "'His views are completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion,' said Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University. [...] Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that 'the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations.'"^[20]
There is no reliable source claiming that Jupiter is warming. However, observations of the Red Spot Jr. storm suggest Jupiter could be in a period of global climate change.^[21]^[22] This is hypothesized to be part of an approximately 70 year global climate cycle, characterized by the relatively rapid forming and subsequent slow erosion and merging of cyclonic and anticyclonic vortices that help transfer heat between Jupiter's poles and equator. The cycle works like this: As the vortices erode, heat exchange is reduced; this makes the poles cool down and the equatorial region heat up; the resulting temperature difference destabilizes the atmosphere, leading to the creation of new vortices.^[23]^[24]
Pluto has an extremely elliptical orbit with a period of about 248 years. Data are sparse, but two data points from 1988 and 2002 indirectly suggest that Pluto warmed between those two dates.^[25] Pluto's temperature is heavily influenced by its elliptical orbit – it was closest to the sun in 1989 and has slowly receded since. Because of thermal inertia, it is expected to warm for a while after it passes perihelion (similar to how a sunny day's warmest temperatures happen during the afternoon instead of right at noon). No other mechanism has so far been seriously suggested. Here is a reasonable summary, and this paper discusses how the thermal inertia is provided by sublimation and evaporation of parts of Pluto's atmosphere. A more popular account is here and in Wikipedia's own article.

Q16: Do scientists support climate change just to get more money?

A16: No,

Scientists participate in international organizations like the IPCC as part of their normal academic duties. They do not receive any extra compensation beyond possibly for direct expenses.
Scientific grants do not usually award any money to a scientist personally, only towards the cost of his or her scientific work.
There is not a shortage of useful things that scientists could study if they were not studying global warming.
- Understanding our climate system better brings benefits independent of global warming. For instance, more accurate weather predictions save a lot of money (on the order of billions of dollars a year), and everyone from insurance agents to farmers wants climate data.^[26]^[27] Scientists could get paid to study climate even if global warming did not exist.

Q17: Doesn't the climate vary even without human activity?

A17: It does, but the fact that natural variation occurs does not mean that human-induced change cannot also occur. Climate scientists have extensively studied natural causes of climate change (such as orbital changes, volcanism, and solar variation) and have ruled them out as an explanation for the current temperature increase. Human activity is the cause at the 95 to 99 percent confidence level (see the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report for details). The high level of certainty in this is important to keep in mind to spot mention of natural variation functioning as a distraction.

Q18: Should we include the view that climate change will lead to planetary doom or catastrophe?

A18: This page is about the science of climate change. It doesn't talk about planetary doom or catastrophe. For a technical explanation, see catastrophic climate change, and for paleoclimatic examples see PETM and great dying.

Q19: Is an increase in global temperature of, say, 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) important?

A19: Though it may not sound like much, a global temperature rise of 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) is huge in climate terms. For example, the sea level rise it would produce would flood coastal cities around the world, which include most large cities.

Earth's climate has varied significantly over geological ages. The question of an "optimal temperature" makes no sense without a clear optimality criterion. Over geological time spans, ecosystems adapt to climate variations. But global climate variations during the development of human civilization (i.e. the past 12,000 years) have been remarkably small. Human civilization is highly adapted to the current stable climate. Agricultural production depends on the proper combination of soil, climate, methods, and seeds. Most large cities are located on the coast, and any significant change in sea level would strongly affect them. Migration of humans and ecosystems is limited by political borders and existing land use. In short, the main problem is not the higher absolute temperature but the massive and unprecedentedly fast change in climate and the related effects on human societies. The IPCC AR6 WG2 report has a detailed discussion of the effects of rapid climate change.

Q20: Why are certain proposals to change the article discarded, deleted, or ignored? Who is/was Scibaby?

A20: Scibaby is/was a long term abusive sock-master (or coordinated group of sock masters) who has created 1,027 confirmed sock puppets, another 167 suspected socks, and probably many untagged or unrecognized ones. This page lists some recent creations. His modus operandi has changed over time, but includes proposing reasonably worded additions on the talk page that only on close examination turn out to be irrelevant, misinterpreted, or give undue weight to certain aspects. Scibaby is banned, and Scibaby socks are blocked as soon as they are identified. Some editors silently revert his additions, per WP:DENY, while others still assume good faith even for likely socks and engage them.

Q21: What about this really interesting recent peer-reviewed paper I read or read about, that says...?

A21: There are hundreds of peer-reviewed papers published every month in respected scientific journals such as Geophysical Research Letters, the Journal of Climate, and others. We can't include all of them, but the article does include references to individual papers where there is consensus that they best represent the state of the relevant science. This is in accordance with the "due weight" principle (WP:WEIGHT) of the Neutral point of view policy and the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" principle (WP:IINFO) of the What Wikipedia is not policy.

Q22: Why does the article define "climate change" as a recent phenomenon? Hasn't the planet warmed and cooled before?

A22: Yes, the planet has warmed and cooled before. However, the term "climate change" without further qualification is widely understood to refer to the recent episode and often explicitly connected with the greenhouse effect. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we use the term in this most common meaning. The article Climate variability and change deals with the more general concept.

Q23: Did the CERN CLOUD experiment prove that climate change is caused not by human activity but by cosmic rays?

A23: No. For cosmic rays to be causing global warming, all of the following would have to be true, whereas only the italicized one was tested in the 2011 experiment:^[28]

Solar magnetic field must be getting stronger
The number of cosmic rays reaching Earth must be dropping
Cosmic rays must successfully seed clouds, which requires:

Cosmic rays must trigger aerosol (liquid droplet) formation,
These newly-formed aerosols must grow sufficiently through condensation to form cloud-condensation nuclei (CCN),
The CCN must lead to increased cloud formation, and
Cloud cover on Earth must be declining.

Perhaps the study's lead author, Jasper Kirkby, put it best: "...it [the experiment] actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it's a very important first step."^[29]

Q24: I read that something can't fix climate change. Is this true?

A24: Yes, this is true for all plausible single things including: "electric cars", "planting trees", "low-carbon technology", "renewable energy", "Australia", "capitalism", "the doom & gloom approach", "a Ph.D. in thermodynamics". Note that it is problematic to use the word "fix" regarding climate change, as returning the climate to its pre-industrial state currently appears to be feasible only over a timeframe of thousands of years. Current efforts are instead aimed at mitigating (meaning limiting) climate change. Mitigation is strived for through the combination of many different things. See Climate change mitigation for details.

References

^ ^a ^b Powell, James (20 November 2019). "Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming". Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 37 (4): 183–184. doi:10.1177/0270467619886266. S2CID 213454806. Retrieved 15 November 2020.
^ ^a ^b "Commission for Climatology Frequently Asked Questions". World Meteorological Organization. Archived from the original on 5 May 2020. Retrieved 14 July 2020.
^ Harris, Tom. "Scientists who work in the fields liberal arts graduate Al Gore wanders through contradict his theories about man-induced climate change". National Post. Archived from the original on 30 August 2011. Retrieved 11 January 2009 – via Solid Waste & Recycling. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 4 February 2012 suggested (help)
^ Arriola, Benj. "5 Good Arguments Why GlobalWarming is NOT due to Man-made Carbon Dioxide". Global Warming Awareness Blog. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Ahlbeck, Jarl. "Increase of the Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Concentration due to Ocean Warming". Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Kirby, Simon (11 April 2007). "Top scientist debunks global warming". Herald Sun. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Brahic, Catherine (16 May 2007). "Climate myths: Human CO2 emissions are too tiny to matter". New Scientist. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ "More Notes on Global Warming". Physics Today. May 2005. Retrieved 10 September 2007.
^ Battle, M.; et al. (2000). "Global Carbon Sinks and Their Variability Inferred from Atmospheric O2 and d13C". Science. 287 (5462): 2467–2470. doi:10.1126/science.287.5462.2467.
^ The Royal Society (2005). "Ocean acidification due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide". Retrieved 9 May 2012.
^ "Met Office: Climate averages". Met Office. Archived from the original on 24 February 2009. Retrieved 23 January 2009.
^ Climate Central (18 January 2017). "2016 Was the Hottest Year on Record". Climate Central. Retrieved 1 February 2017.
^ The Saga of Erik the Red, 1880, English translation by J. Sephton, from the original Eiríks saga rauða.
^ "Cold Hard Facts". Tamino. 8 January 2009. Retrieved 21 January 2009.^{[dead link]}
^ Peterson, T. C.; et al. (2008). "The Myth of the 1970s Global Cooling Scientific Consensus". Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society. 89 (9): 1325. Bibcode:2008BAMS...89.1325P. doi:10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1.
^ Gwynne, Peter (28 April 1975). "The Cooling World". Newsweek. p. 64.
^ Verger, Rob (23 May 2014). "Newsweek Rewind: Debunking Global Cooling". Newsweek.
^ Gwynne, Peter (21 May 2014). "My 1975 'Cooling World' Story Doesn't Make Today's Climate Scientists Wrong". insidescience.org.
^ Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.
^ Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (page 2)". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.
^ Marcus, Philip; Shetty, Sushil; Asay-Davis, Xylar (November 2006). Velocities and Temperatures of Jupiter's Great Red Spot and the New Red Oval and Implications for Global Climate Change. American Physical Society. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Goudarzi, Sara (4 May 2006). "New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change". Space.com. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Philip, Marcus S. (22 April 2004). "Prediction of a global climate change on Jupiter" (PDF). Nature. 428 (6985): 828–831. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Yang, Sarah (21 April 2004). "Researcher predicts global climate change on Jupiter as giant planet's spots disappear". University of California, Berkeley. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Elliot, J. L.; et al. (10 July 2003). "The recent expansion of Pluto's atmosphere". Nature (424): 165–168. doi:10.1038/nature01762.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
^ Foerster, Jim. "What's The Difference Between Private Weather Companies And The National Weather Service?". Forbes.
^ Eilts, Mike (27 November 2018). "The Role of Weather—and Weather Forecasting—in Agriculture". DTN.
^ "What do the CERN experiments tell us about global warming?". Skeptical Science. 2 September 2011.
^ Brumfiel, Geoff (23 August 2011). "Cloud Formation May Be Linked to Cosmic Rays". Scientific American.

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Recent Scafetta papers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article presents a summary of climate change science. New references about specific aspects are probably better discussed as possible additions to the specialized articles on particular branches of climatology, and if accepted they may then be suitable, if significant enough to global warming, for use as references in this article.

There are some more recent articles (2009) by Scafetta, et. al, that should be included in the solar variation portion of the radiative forcing section, e.g. Nicola Scafetta and Richard Willson, “ACRIM-gap and Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) trend issue resolved using a surface magnetic flux TSI proxy model”, Geophysical Research Letter 36, L05701, doi:10.1029/2008GL036307 (2009)) by someone who understands the science better than I do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthOutThere (talk • contribs) 18:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent suggestion - I'll add itDikstr (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, the paper has been cited a total of 4 times in other peer-reviewed papers - one of which is by the author himself. Of the remaining three papers the two of them disagree with it, and the third uses it in a reference list with no inline citation (so there is no telling where it is used), and is in a journal that isn't focused on solar-research. Has nothing to do on this article, and i'm rather doubtful whether it would belong on a sub-article. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kim; Sorry, what are you basing your comment on? I easily found a reference to that paper here: http://www.leif.org/research/2008GL036307-pip.pdf. and : http://www.livescience.com/environment/050930_sun_effect.html there are a number of other references as well. --22:51, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you are referring to the wrong paper. Note that this particular Scafetta paper is from 2009. The first link is to a pre-print of the paper, and the second is about an old Scafetta paper (note the date please). Use scholar, check "cited by". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, those article prove he is a credible source. A recent paper would not yet have a lot of media coverage. what standards are you people using here? there is no consensus that a paper which is already academically credible has to be further confirmed through refernce by other credible scholarly sources, who themselves need to be peer-reviewed journals subject to review by officially appointed accreditation agencies...phew, hard to even type that. --23:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

There are thousands upon thousands of "credible," peer-reviewed papers published every year. We can't cite all of them. Let's wait and see if this paper makes a large impact on the field (so far, it has not). Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto Boris above. The relevant issue here is one of weight. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting a bit excessive. Wikipedia operates on the principles of all editors having some legitimate role in an article. there is nothing in Wikipedia guidelines which says that a single credible, legitimate source, has to have a wide-ranging impact before it can even be used here. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. In the past year there have been about 240 articles published in Journal of Climate, maybe 500 in Geophysical Research Letters, and 300 in JGR-Atmospheres, to name but three journals among a dozen or so relevant to the field. Is it your view that we can just shove 'm all in, as long as at least one editor wants it there? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No; we can include the few which summarize some of the important points of this topic and its related issues. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but that's not what I gathered from your previous response (maybe I misunderstood). So we've come full circle: we should wait and see if the Scafetta and Dikstr article becomes "an important point of this topic," as you say. I support that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with you. the question is not whether the source article itself is important, but rather whether it covers any important details of the topic itself. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 02:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can we have a FAQ on this? Papers like this should *first* go into the solar variation article (ditto GHG for papers about GHG's). Fight about them there, decide their worth, and don't clog up the GW talk page or article with this stuff. Yes I know: you won't get the fame or fortune from trubble making here, but it is the appropriate path William M. Connolley (talk) 08:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great idea.--CurtisSwain (talk) 22:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WMC's point is a good one.--SPhilbrick T 13:18, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cite doi finally

Keep making proposals and forgetting to follow up. In June, we talked about switching to article to {{Cite doi}} since the sorter format is easier to read in the edit window. In August, we talked again about switching, but got sidetracked. You guys mind if I make the switch today? ChyranandChloe (talk) 02:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Go for it.--CurtisSwain (talk) 08:21, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You may also want to consider the method used on Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident, where the references are separated from the text like this:

it would require a good naming system ("author(year[optional letter])"?), and some maintainence - but it does make the text alot easier to edit. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 08:59, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I saw Dragon's flight make the proposal to integrate this feature into WP in WP:CITE.[1] It's done here, but to a lesser extent. Thanks though. I'll have it taken care of by weekend's end, busier than expected this week. ChyranandChloe (talk) 22:21, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seconding (or thirding?) Kim's suggestion. I agree that LDR improves the readability of the editable article. I've used it a fair bit; I haven't been rigorous about choosing a reference naming convention, but I agree with Kim, especially in the case of scientific articles. I've generally ordered my references in the same order they appear in the article, but if we adopt a reference naming system as Kim suggests, perhaps the references should be alpha sorted.--SPhilbrick T 13:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I dislike {{cite doi}} as it allows an easy way for vandals to modify highly visible pages by making edits to templates that are not watched by many people. It also makes updating the references more difficult. -Atmoz (talk) 22:50, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a system:

Plan. Most references, especially the generic style of scientific journals, do not need to be modified; when it does need to be modified, the edit button may be easier to use than the code window (especially since the refs here are tightly compacted).
Protect. When the ref is stable, and the edit button removed (by passing "noedit" into the second parameter) a bot regularly maintains the ref accordingly. Without the edit button, it's much harder for vandals to find the page. There are other templates that are not protected but used (e.g. {{Cnote2}}, {{Chem}}), and they are not vandalized despite their greater danger.
Preserve. For us, there's plans to create an anti-vandal bot to watch these pages and notify a notice board. We could ask for cascade semi-protect if things get bad.

ChyranandChloe (talk) 04:04, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I dislike the closed cite-doi's, there are reasons for changing references, and this makes it rather hard to find out where to edit (imho). There are pro's and con's to this. Frankly i think that WP:LDR with regular references (or doi's), and a good naming system makes more sense than exchanging everything inline with cite-doi's. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure there are reasons for and against, but it helps to actually say what they are. However, it seems that the trolls are too taxing on time. Your time is important, I'll bring this up when things cool down, but I do expect a good reply. ChyranandChloe (talk) 19:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Material which was removed

excuse me, why was the following material removed? Link to section entitled "Scientific Debate" is Debate Among Scientists - Not Large Organisations Fighting Each Other - That is Called "Politics"."

This section was relevant to the entry. Would appreciate a reply. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 21:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brittania is indef'd the section was going nowhere William M. Connolley (talk) 23:26, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I disagree completely with the indef ban. however, thanks for your helpful reply to my query. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:03, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

100 reasons why global warming is not man-made

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Newspaper articles are not sufficient rebuttal to the use of peer reviewed scientific papers, and should never be cited on any article in Wikipedia as authoritative on matters of science.

Here are a few excerpts from the Express News Article. It makes good reading. The lack of true science and the clear left-wing political genesis of GW/Climate change should be reflected in the GW article.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/146138

EXPRESS NEWS: 100 REASONS WHY GLOBAL WARMING IS NATURAL Tuesday December 15,2009

HERE are the 100 reasons, released in a dossier issued by the European Foundation, why climate change is natural and not man-made:

1) There is “no real scientific proof” that the current warming is caused by the rise of greenhouse gases from man’s activity.

2) Man-made carbon dioxide emissions throughout human history constitute less than 0.00022 percent of the total naturally emitted from the mantle of the earth during geological history.

4) After World War II, there was a huge surge in recorded CO2 emissions but global temperatures fell for four decades after 1940.

5) Throughout the Earth’s history, temperatures have often been warmer than now and CO2 levels have often been higher –more than ten times as high.

8) The IPCC theory is driven by just 60 scientists and favourable reviewers not the 4,000 usually cited..............

Mytwocents (talk) 18:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dikstr (talk • contribs) [reply]

See FAQ. --McSly (talk) 17:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The argument against the list of skeptics is that the are not related to the field of climatology. Such a field of science is a broad spectrum without a clear definition. If it benefits the theory of MMGW to exclude a specific area of science where more skeptics exist, those in favor of MMGW can do so without being held accountable. This is due to there not being an official list of areas of science associated with climatology; therefore, such a list is not held to peer-review standards. My point is that the list that IPCC produce of scientists that confirm MMGW, by their own definition of climatology, contains a super-majority of scientists not related to climatology. So if skeptics can round of up a list that they attempt to include only published scientists with some expertise, the IPCC can deny certain areas are related, then in turn produce a larger list and not apply their own standards. However, this overlooks the fact that a scientist with expertise in seismic activity may have done ample research in another field without being published. The ability of IPCC to define climatology and not apply the standard to their own list is somewhat of a loophole.Cflare (talk) 17:43, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Project Steve. --McSly (talk) 17:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As quoted: "We did not wish to mislead the public into thinking that scientific issues are decided by who has the longer list of scientists!" Do you wish to infer the opposite. Truth is not decided by majority vote; however, history is written by the winners. Unfortunately when grant money and politicians back a certain view, science becomes settled and majority wins history and science. In these cases, science is not a search for truth. If at any point a theory is used to settle a science and can no longer be questioned, it is no longer science. --Cflare (talk) 18:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Scientific theory. --McSly (talk) 18:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

< There are are lot of points in just this one news article that could be paraphased and used on the GW page. Mytwocents (talk) 00:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks more suitable to be used in an article examining how the news media have been dumbing down in recent years. Count Iblis (talk) 00:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removal of material from this page.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This page is for discussion of the article, not for airing one's view of the subject. See WP:FORUM.

It seem to me as something of a newcomer that material is being removed from this page just because it expresses a different view from others here. This is a contentions subject and open debate should be encouraged. Anyone who disagrees with the material posted her should state their objections to it here not just remove it. I have never seen this behaviour before on WP in which one side of the debate is summarily deleted. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has been removed because it violated WP:TPG. The talk pages are there for discussion of improvements of the article, not for discussions about the general topic of global warming. The material you have now removed twice is not only nonsensical crap, it also is indeed pure soap-boxing and not related to improving the article. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:35, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The material relates to a current news item about the subject of the article. A quick look through this talk page shows that practically none of it is directly about improving the article. If we want to keep this talk page strictly for the purpose of discussing changes to the article that is fine but both sides of the debate must adhere to that. On other articles where it has been agreed to adhere to a strict policy on the talk page, a separate talk page for discussion of the subject in general has been set up and editors have been asked to continue their general subject arguments there. Just because you believe that the other side's views are 'nonsensical crap' and 'pure soap-boxing' does not give you the right to selectively remove material from the talk page. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:06, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't put words into my mouth. That particular post was nonsensical crap - it was not even remotely self-consistent or on topic. It's not a RS, either, and entirely irrelevant to this article. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:23, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c)we do remove comments from "both sides", so there is no discrepancy there. Wikipedia is not a forum for discussions - so the whole sub-page thing is wrong. (and frankly i've never seen it, and would be against it) That is what blogs and other public fora are for, this is an encyclopedia. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sub-page was just a suggestion, if you do not like it then do not do it, but please do not pretend that the rest of this talk page is strictly about improving the article. Much of it is debate about the general subject. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I found this quote. WP:PBAGDSWCBY "Failing to keep Wikipedia neutral. BGD: Keep an article one-sided and make sure it states only one point of view. CAD: When editing, make sure that the article always shows both sides of the issue and is not biased or in favor of anything or anyone." --Cflare (talk) 18:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The point that I was making was that this is the talk page not the article. This is the place for people to express their individual POVs. They can then be debated with a view to maintaining the neutrality of the article.Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have misread WP:TPG, as well as the whole idea about what WP is about. We are not here to discuss our personal point of views - in fact those POV's should be left parked outside when you edit WP. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And as this particular thread isn't about the article - i suggest that someone archive it. Take it to the policy pages, or discuss on your personal talkpages. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:29, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I pointed out serious issues of the shortcomings of the article in talk two years ago and last year. I felt I was smeared for my religion (which was not a topic I raised, but which is on my user page and which I acknowledge openly). Afterwards, a policy came about of removing talk content and archiving. I note similar content kept appearing being raised by other editors, but always the same names kept with closing down to discussion. I bring [2] to the attention of other editors, as it seriously questions how this article has progressed. It raises the same concerns I raised, but with more substantive argument. DDB (talk) 03:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bolt quotes Solomon. Solomon is ridiculously wrong- to a degree that I now start to interpret this as a surreal comedic stunt. Few other interpretations make sense. Of course, Bolt somehow manages to top this by suggesting that Google is in on the deal - what, WMC, the UN, all National Academies and Google? Those alien mind control lasers must be going full blast! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[Pa remvoed - WMC] Maybe you are right .. how is Solomon wrong? Google's auto suggest feature is supposed to be automatic, and for it to ignore the 24 million references in favor of fewer references suggests external help. In a similar fashion the Australian Broadcasting Corporation had an online search that offered one reference, an email, to 'climate gate' while Google returned the 24 million figure. I'm unaware of the conspiracy theory involving monolithic UN subversion of science protocols. However, I have no doubt that senior scientists have collaborated to promote their beliefs despite scientific findings and this has spilled into public policy leveraged by political bodies. DDB (talk) 08:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What the discussion here shows is that there are two sides to this argument and therefore, in order to maintain balance in the article itself, free discussion on and around the subject must be permitted on the talk page. Summary deletion of material from this page because it is not in accordance with the majority view is not acceptable. I note that, although there has been much criticism, no one has actually addressed the individual points raised. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article Title incongruent with content

I submit that the context of the article itself causes the title to be incongruent.

Global Warming itself is inconsistent with the concepts surrounding climate change and thus AGW.
Global Warming as an effect is not equivalent to AGW or MMGW.
The article first statement addresses global warming, immediately addresses MMGW, then, only in the next section, briefly discusses causes of GW. After the brief, it immediately directs its attention back on making a case for MMGW.

I'd like to make the following suggestion to keep the article consistent with the concept. In the least, it is a reordering. At the most, it is a redesign.

The beginning of the article should address global warming as an effect caused by the trapping of heat due to high amounts of certain gases in the atmosphere.
At first the article should address the effect as an increase in heat necessary for the climate to be suitable for the broad spectrum of life on the planet.
Only after the effect is addressed as necessary, it can address the possibilities of increased CO2 in the atmosphere due to man's activities, but cannot assert at this point that man intervention is negative.
A separate section should address the concerns of scientists in the community with a link to expanded text on AGW/MMGW. The last sentence in this small section mentions skepticism to the concept of MMGW.
In the separate MMGW article, NPOV can be applied to show both views regardless of concern for WEIGHT. This is because the article is not about GW, but MMGW. This would be more consistent with the current debate, because most all of the skeptics do not argue GW or CC. Cflare (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note the following benefits.

The article for Global Warming would remain a scientific article. It is a scientific theory. It shouldn't really contain arguments for MMGW unless it is an article about MMGW (although it should be allowed to reference it).
The article would magically become NPOV. The concept of Global Warming is valid as described by my first point in my list of suggestions. Any debate over MMGW is irrelevant to the concept of GW.
People would stop complaining about Neutrality. The current article is NOT neutral. I don't care what you feel, if you reread it over and over, anyone would come to this conclusion. This is simply because the article is addressing the wrong topic.
Skeptics would receive due WEIGHT in a separate article. It is easy to assert that skeptics do not belong in this article due to the nature of the theory of GW being neutral. However, again, this is not the topic that the article addresses. The title might as well be changed to MMGW.Cflare (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:COMMONNAME. Natural language is not strictly compositional. The prevalent meaning of "global warming" is the current episode of climate change that is widely accepted as being driven by the enhanced greenhouse effect. Likewise, "global warming" is the prevalent term used to describe this. The archives have plenty of evidence for this. Your more differentiated nomenclature, regardless of it's inherent qualities, does not reflect common usage. Plenty of news articles talk about "global warming sceptics", "global warming denial", "climate change contrarians", but I've not seen any that talk about "man made global warming skeptic" or "anthropogenic climate change denier" - if they exist, they are certainly rare. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, if you allude to WP:COMMONNAME, the article suddenly belongs to the public sphere. Proof in concept: The public calls the theory of relativity, the theory of space-junk. Should an encyclopedia refer to the theory of space-junk, it is no longer a scientific article, it is a public domain article. Thus you can't use WP:WEIGHT without including public opinion. I personally feel WP:COMMONNAME does not adequately handle ambiguous topics. Currently ~40% of Americans do not think global warming is man-made. Would you include that? If you wish to keep the article scientific, you must use scientific terms. If you wish to use WP:COMMONNAME you should include the public opinion and public view. If you deny public opinion in a WP:COMMONNAME article, then you are creating a contradiction which turns Wikipedia into a non-formal resource which turns it into a forum of opinion. Second of all, "global warming skeptics" is disingenuous. If you want to represent people fairly, you must represent the argument fairly. This is an encyclopedia, not a gossip machine. If they refer to themselves as "global warming skeptics" it comes from a need to be publicly recognized and does not accurately represent their argument. We must accurately represent differing views. Thirdly, I really felt like I created an adequate compromise. I felt like I left the article given due weight to the majority scientific opinion while truly satisfying WP:NPOV. If the advantages are not clear to all sides of this talk page, then I refrain from contributing and deem it a lost cause. If such a response from you seems reasonable to the majority of the editors on this talk page, then I can hardly deem Wikipedia a non-bias source anymore. It disappoints me, because I feel a surge of freedom when the ability to fairly represent data and history is held by the public and not the winner. It felt like it was a breakthrough in the history of man. A point where history is no longer written by the winner, but by truth. Apparently world-wide public access to information can't even break bias or support intellectual freedom. --Cflare (talk) 19:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If I were to concede your point. Can we stop classifying this as a scientific article, or create a link at the top saying it's a redirect from AGW or MMGW. We could retitle it, and create the redirect if you wish, but I believe referring to Global Warming yet focusing in AGW is deceptive to people seeking technically correct information. Should an article for global warming to appear in a scientific encyclopedia I would expect the structure I submitted above. --Cflare (talk) 19:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Your three points, helps to put them in a list:

This isn't solely scientific. There is section called "Debate and skepticism" (which used to be called the "Economic and political debate"), there is a paragraph on public opinion, and the number is higher than 42% (in the countries I'm assuming your talking about) but it varies world-wide.[3]
There's a difference between Scientific skepticism and Global warming denialism just as there's a difference between the science and politics. Scientific skepticism's denotation doesn't have the negative connotation your talking about, and the name isn't going to change for political correctness.
If you want a compromise, get to the point, I don't need a commentary on what Wikipedia stands for so as long as I understand your objective is to improve the encyclopedia.

ChyranandChloe (talk) 19:31, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On #1 on the poll figures - it is even incorrect in the US [4]. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The scrutiny is counter-productive. My point is that Global Warming as a theory has nothing to do with MMGW, so the entire article is a ruse. Either make it exclusively about the causes of warming due to effects in the atmosphere or retitle the article to Man-Made Global Warming. I've made it clear that my compromise is to allow a separate section discussing man's contribution to global warming, and allowing for a link to expanded text on the technical information regarding that theory. When my changes, which were clearly laid out were dismissed because the editors refer to WP:COMMONNAME. I argued that it is a flawed to apply common name to a scientific article. You replied that this isn't a scientific article. This is cyclic argument, because it refers back to my first statement that this article in incorrectly titled. My defense was long because I'm simply saying that if this inconsistency isn't handled, then we end up in a state were wikipedia is subject to editor opinion. There are enough rules to defend any position. Why is that not apparent? --Cflare (talk) 19:47, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but your assertion that there is a difference is in direct contradiction to the Scientific opinion on climate change. The scientific opinion is that recent global warming is mostly caused by human factors. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shall I repeat. Global warming is independent from MMGW. MMGW if at all is an addition to the effect of global warming. It is not the whole of global warming. It is not the effect of global warming. If humans never existed, global warming still occurs. It IS the effect of gases in the atmosphere which trap heat. It DOES occur and be thankful, because otherwise you wouldn't be alive. This as an effect and as described by the article title is an effect on its own. MMGW is a footnote on global warming at best. If you calculated the cause of global warming by man compared to the global warming by the earth using their numbers, you end up with less than 10%. If that 10% is a problem, it is MMGW and it is the straw that broke the camel's back, but global warming as a scientific effect is natural, is necessary, keeps the planet from being an ice-ball, and is inconsistent with the contents of this article. I am done answering this slant perspective. The article is a ruse, and we are getting nowhere to address it, because you aren't even addressing the reason I even posted this. I'm trying to make Wikipedia better by ensuring topics match their articles and any subdivision or more specific issue concerning a topic stays on it's own page with a small summary at best in the main article. I'm addressing this for the same reason people here refuse to allow most information about skeptics in the main article. --Cflare (talk) 20:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Think your talking about paleoclimatology, climate change also get more into this than here. When "global warming" was coined in the 1980s it's been tied with both man-made and current.[5] You're wordy, if you can't summarize you just ramble. ChyranandChloe (talk) 20:23, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re. CFlre: You are free to use whatever terms you want. But what you seem to call "global warming" is, in fact, the greenhouse effect. Global warming is a change in temperature - it's a process. The greenhouse effect is a mechanism for trapping heat. It also is the mechanism that causes (most of) the current global warming. Using "global warming" to denote the generic greenhouse effect is not standard terminology, and not something we should adopt. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cflare, I think the problem will be that there will be as much argument over what the new articles should be called and which bits are contentious as there is over the current article.. As you see above, it has already started. Although yours was an interesting idea, I think the only way forward is to keep this as a general article about the subject and make sure that it addresses all the issues fairly. Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brief history section?

I am new to this article and have not looked at the lengthy discussion archives. What I don't find in the article is a brief history of how and when the global warming idea took hold. Something along the lines of: With the advent of weather stations, atmospheric studies, and anecdotal accounts of heat waves centered over cow pastures, scientists were able to accurately calculate an average surface temperature for the earth. In 1954, the first conference was held in a chilly gymnasium, where the overwhelming consensus was that the average temperature was rising at unprecedented rates.

For this article, I would think a good introduction would summarize when a current average was possible, when paleo reconstructions became possible (or at least popular), and perhaps summarize the scientific areas that have contributed the most to the theory. I will look and see if the footnotes show a chronological pattern, but I would not expect them to.

I imagine that there must have been an introduction like this that became obsoleted as the article evolved. Thank you. Fotoguzzi (talk) 15:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is an article History of climate change science, which probably provides the best overview. Perhaps it should be linked from all significant articles on the science of climate change. --TS 15:03, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

no discussion of controversy

About a year ago on the discussion for some article about global warming I said that it was necessary to discuss details that could refute people that I know who think the data is faked, as opposed to having different interpretations for valid data. Now the wheel has turned and such a controversy has hit the press. Somebody needs to cover it. I would think the thermodynamics of arctic ice shrinkage would be a good issue to argue. Failing to talk about the controversy with the emails may represent a neutrality issue. Patrij (talk) 15:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We discuss the Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident in an article of its own. We aren't a website for debunking myths but there are plenty of such websites out there and they do a good job. --TS 15:52, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you'll find that the mainstream media has moved on already. The current global warming news is all about the Copenhagen conference and opinions about the Copenhagen Accord. There was no new GW science revealed by those emails. The story, the misunderstandings and the counter-arguments have not changed as a result of them. --Nigelj (talk) 15:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the mainstream media have never tried to clarify what all the dirty science that the emails really expose. What you would seem with some exceptions, was an apologetic trash trying to dismiss the case as nothing, without ever showing the text of the emails. But we have loads of articles from reliable sources, as for example the british telegraph (see this, for example), that shows exactly what this emails and computer code really mean. On another thread we have seem how the wikipedia has been manipulated by a few of administrator to push the alarmist view of global warming. It is a joke that in any place of the global warming article we have any citation of the climategate article. Seem taxpayer funded "researchers" have been working around the clock to stop any credible information to appear on this article. Echofloripa (talk) 16:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[Powell2019-1] Powell, James (20 November 2019). "Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming". Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 37 (4): 183–184. doi:10.1177/0270467619886266. S2CID 213454806. Retrieved 15 November 2020.

[WMO-FAQS-2] "Commission for Climatology Frequently Asked Questions". World Meteorological Organization. Archived from the original on 5 May 2020. Retrieved 14 July 2020.

[3] Harris, Tom. "Scientists who work in the fields liberal arts graduate Al Gore wanders through contradict his theories about man-induced climate change". National Post. Archived from the original on 30 August 2011. Retrieved 11 January 2009 – via Solid Waste & Recycling. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 4 February 2012 suggested (help)

[4] Arriola, Benj. "5 Good Arguments Why GlobalWarming is NOT due to Man-made Carbon Dioxide". Global Warming Awareness Blog. Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[5] Ahlbeck, Jarl. "Increase of the Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Concentration due to Ocean Warming". Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[6] Kirby, Simon (11 April 2007). "Top scientist debunks global warming". Herald Sun. Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[7] Brahic, Catherine (16 May 2007). "Climate myths: Human CO2 emissions are too tiny to matter". New Scientist. Retrieved 11 January 2009.

[8] "More Notes on Global Warming". Physics Today. May 2005. Retrieved 10 September 2007.

[9] Battle, M.; et al. (2000). "Global Carbon Sinks and Their Variability Inferred from Atmospheric O2 and d13C". Science. 287 (5462): 2467–2470. doi:10.1126/science.287.5462.2467.

[10] The Royal Society (2005). "Ocean acidification due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide". Retrieved 9 May 2012.

[11] "Met Office: Climate averages". Met Office. Archived from the original on 24 February 2009. Retrieved 23 January 2009.

[12] Climate Central (18 January 2017). "2016 Was the Hottest Year on Record". Climate Central. Retrieved 1 February 2017.

[13] The Saga of Erik the Red, 1880, English translation by J. Sephton, from the original Eiríks saga rauða.

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