Talk:Media Matters for America

Propose putting "Liberal" or Progressive in the opening line

Media Matters explains very clearly in ther "About Us" section who the are, and I find it intrestering that while [Accuracy in Media] is labeled "conservative" MM is not labled as "Progressive" or "Liberal" intheir opening line dispite their self proclaimed agenda of counteracting anything that "forwards the conservative agenda" (Conservative on one side, Liberal on the other). I did not make this change outright because I assumed it would be un-done right away anyway, due to the wikibias on political related articles such as these. However if it is correct to label an originization that, despite it not ourwardly saying it, is there to counteract anything that forwards the liberal agenda, one should logically assume it is also correct to lable an originization that, backed by it outwardly saying it, is there to counteract anythat that "forwards the conservative agenda"--71.82.134.111 (talk) 19:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It mentions "progressive" in the second sentence; I don't really know that there is a huge difference either way. So long as the new version is equally well-written and neutral, I'd be fine with first sentence, second, third, whatever. Croctotheface (talk) 19:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

As a Technical communications major, consistancy is important to me. This is why I bring it up. Becides, just like news paper articles, how the first sentance is worded is VERY important.--71.82.134.111 (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we replaced the first period with a semicolon, it would go from the second to the first sentence, but I don't think it would make any kind of relevant change. In case I was unclear: if you want to rewrite it so that we put the self-description in the first sentence rather than the second, I would not be opposed, so long as the new version is equally well-written and neutral. Croctotheface (talk) 19:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

we can use an example of AIM for consinsity

Accuracy In Media (AIM) is a conservative American organization which monitors the news media in the United States. Founded in 1969 by Reed Irvine, at the time an economist with the Federal Reserve, AIM describes itself as "a non-profit, grassroots citizens watchdog of the news media that critiques botched and bungled news stories and sets the record straight on important issues that have received slanted coverage".

So MM Could be worded

Media Matters for America (or MMfA) is a liberal American organization which moniters the news media in the united states. A 501(c)(3) non-profit organization Founded in 2004 by journalist and author David Brock. A Media Matters for America describes itself as "a web-based, not-for-profit, progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media." Media Matters for America defines "conservative misinformation" as "news or commentary presented in the media that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda."[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.82.134.111 (talk) 19:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I see little difference in the second line or the first line, whatever. I do oppose using the world "liberal" as opposed to "progressive" since they themselves use the latter. See the archives for previous discussion on the matter. Gamaliel (talk) 20:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

How about "left-wing", to save readers from having to look up the description of Progressivism? Then AIM could be altered to say "Right-wing" and we have full consinstancy. and the big diffrence is consinstancy of wording more then anything. Less consinstancy and people tend to see things that are worded diffrently as inaccurate, unprofessional at best, or bias at worst. --71.82.134.111 (talk) 20:34, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

As discussed in the archives, I and other editors prefer the self-description. The labor saving of a single click shouldn't be a consideration. Gamaliel (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so then the self description should be appliciable to similar wiki artilcles? we should apply these same standards to the AIM page as well. Would you assist me with this Gamaliel?--71.82.134.111 (talk) 21:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

If the self-description is basically accurate, we should use it. "Progressive" is at least as accurate as "liberal," and it's probably more accurate, so we should use it. If their self-description were not accurate, it would be a different scenario, but that doesn't apply here. Your version above is much less neutral than the present version, as "liberal" and "left wing" are less accurate and neutral, and you want to put them first and foremost. Croctotheface (talk) 04:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Change made per above, check it out.--71.82.134.111 (talk) 21:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Negative, this has been discussed to death. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

And what is your reasoning to retract the changes? consinsity is a pretty big deal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.136.24.187 (talk) 03:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not the most important thing, not even close. It could be that the approach we take at this article is better than the approach taken at other articles. It could be that they're both valid and there's no reason to do things one way versus the other. Speaking only for myself, I reverted the change because it was worse than the version currently in the article: I'd be fine with a reworked version of the first few sentences, but the most recent version mentioned the group's politics twice in the first three sentences. Considering that the prior version was perfectly adequate, I reverted back rather than retain the redundancy. Croctotheface (talk) 13:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Why on Earth are you removing the obvious. Of course it is a liberal organization and it should be stated blatently. Anything less is censorship. Don't soften the edges to suit your own POV. Don't sugar coat facts. Bytebear (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

This isn't about anything but accuracy. See the archives for previous discussion instead of leaping to conclusions. Gamaliel (talk) 21:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Not to throw a monkey-wrench into the cogs here, but for a long time now it seems that every week or so an editor tries to drop "liberal" into the LEAD and it's immediately reverted, with the explanation being something along lines of "this has been previously discussed, see the archives". I've scanned the TOCs of the archives and also searched for the word "liberal" within the archived pages, and I have not found any such discussion. Granted I have not actually read through the archives, as that would take a long time. But anyways, I would appreciate it if those editors who claim that this has been discussed to death would provide links or difs to the actual discussion, 'cause I can't find it. Is it possible that this was discussed in a ANI thread or on someone's talkpage, i.e. somewhere other than right here? Yilloslime (t) 21:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The standard practice for politically charged labels is to use a self selected label when such a label is available and it provides a meaningful description. This is done for several reasons. The first is that this practice satisfies the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Second is that self-selected labels minimize Wikipedia:Neutral point of view issues. Using a label created by a third-party brings with it the question of what biases does that third party add to the debate, a problem easily avoided with a self selected label. It should also be noted that the terms "liberal" and "progressive" have almost identical meanings in the context of modern American politics. Until someone is able to explain why the term favored by the political right is superior to the term favored by the political left, we should use the term favored by the described group. --Allen3 ^talk 21:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The article says that contributions are given by liberals, and it further says that this group is specifically tasked to find "conservative" errors in reporting. To rely on a euphamism like "progrssive" instead of "liberal" when the article is riddled with liberal vs. conservative rhetoric is POV. Again, don't sugar coat facts. Is anyone debating whether this is not a liberal organization? Call it what it is and stop trying to soften the language. Wikipedia does not sugar coat, nor does it censor facts. I realize MMfA does this on their own, citing a story, they do use the term "progressive" when defining themselves as in "paper after paper, state after state, and region after region, conservative syndicated columnists get more space than their progressive counterparts" but their own external sources that they cite use the term liberal as in "U.S. dailies run more conservative than liberal columns, but some are willing to consider liberal voices." Just because MMfA changes the wording, does not mean we must follow suit. In fact, to do so is POV. Wikipedia is in no way obligated to use their preferred term, particularly when the far more common term is "liberal." It is conservative/;iberal, not conservative/progressive, and it is POV, and more particularly MMfA's POV that is being used in this article. Wikipedia is not MMfA, and should use the lest neutral and most common and common wording it can. I am not against having a statement saying they prefer the term "progressive" to "liberal" if it is well cited, but it should not be used to sugar coat the political leanings of this group. Bytebear (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There's no reason to specifically make a point of using the term they do not use. Is "progressive" somehow inaccurate? When you complain of "sugar coating," it seems that you acknowledge that "progressive" is accurate, but you prefer to use another term that, in your view, is less flattering. There's no reason not to use the term they prefer, provided it does the job. In some ways, "progressive" can be more accurate than "liberal," as liberal could connote (or even denote) an older style of politics, a different set of issues, than "progressive," which is used more often by modern groups. Croctotheface (talk) 22:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The point is "liberal" is an accurate and correct definition of this group. "Progressive" is a euphemism and Wikipedia does not replace facts with euphemisms. Why do you want to avoid the term "liberal." You call it a "less flattering" term. I didn't realize Wikipedia was here to flatter anyone. Wikipedia is here to give the most accurate information, and "liberal" is more accurate, particularly when contrasted with "conservative" which is the sole aim of this group to vilify. In short, accuracy supercedes flattery, because flattery introduces POV.Bytebear (talk) 22:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

No one is interested in flattering or euphemisms or avoiding anything. Accuracy is what we are interested in and we feel that the most accurate description is the one which the group itself uses. Note User:Allen3's comments above about self-selected labels. Gamaliel (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

No, this goes against verifiability. We are to get facts from third party sources, not from the organization itself. Sorry. Bytebear (talk) 22:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

So what are those reliable, third-party sources that claim this organization is more accurately described as "liberal" than "progressive"? Why are those sources more accurate on this point than the organization itself? Gamaliel (talk) 22:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

By your logic, Fox news is truly fair and balanced. Do you agree? Bytebear (talk) 22:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that they see themselves as "fair and balanced", just as MMfA sees themselves as "progressive". The Fox News article contains plenty of sources disputing the former. Is there a comparable source which disputes that MMfA is progressive? Gamaliel (talk) 23:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Again you are using a euphemism that is only used by the group. Do you have external neutral sources that call them 'progressive" and not "libera" I can find several examples of using "liberal" that are already in the article. So your choice of one word over the other is clearly POV. And very few if any neutral sources use conservative/progressive in lew of conservative/liberal. It is just most correct to use the term 'liberal.' If you have an argument for not to use "liberal" I am open for them, but right now your choice of words is POV. Bytebear (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Calling it a euphemism begs the question; I see no evidence that "progressive" is any less accurate than "liberal." Croctotheface (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

when paired with conservatism it is a euphemism. progressive simply isn't a term used in contrast to conservatism. Accurate? not exactly, and certainly not when contrasting conservatism. Bytebear (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is clearly opinion; "progressive" does not somehow fail to encapsulate the place that MM occupies on the political spectrum. As I said above, it could be seen as more accurate than "liberal" in the sense that it is meant to represent something more modern than New Deal liberalism. I don't see how your position says much more than that you would prefer to use "liberal" instead; the idea that it "simply isn't used" is clearly wrong, as this very example indicates. Croctotheface (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The idea that it's a euphemism is clearly an opinion, and I suspect that it's one you won't find much in sources, except perhaps right-wing ones. Croctotheface (talk) 22:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you want to count up the sources for 'progressive' vs 'liberal.' The article certainly uses 'liberal' several times. Bytebear (talk) 22:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Which article? Perhaps you misunderstood what I said: I'm sure there are sources describing MM as liberal, as well as progressive, left-leaning, and probably some without any such label, too. The idea that I don't think you'll find in sources is the idea that "progressive" is a euphemism. That position seems to presume that people don't know what kind of politics someone means when they use "progressive," but I don't think that's really so. And that's what wikilinking is for, anyway. Croctotheface (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I found this article [1] which certainly makes my point about the usage. and from a liberal point of view. Bytebear (talk) 23:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, that source does call it a euphemism, so I suppose it's at least a point that we could open up for discussion. However, it does not describe a way in which the label somehow does not apply, and you haven't, either. Furthermore, despite the fact that "euphemism" implies no difference in meaning, the article does describe ways in which it could have a meaning different from "liberal." Beyond that, the article acknowledges the way that it is being used, not just by MM, but by other significant political figures. That cuts strongly against your argument that nobody uses it. Croctotheface (talk) 00:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

well, now shift gears after finding my argument of 'euphemism' is valid. Fine. Go ahead and prove that conservative/progressive is more acceptable than conservative/liberal. The burden of proof is now on you. I have provem my case. Bytebear (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Huh? One source that agrees with you means that you have "provem" your case? It gives you a valid basis to make your argument, but I still find it wholly unpersuasive for the reasons I articulated and that you declined to respond to. Croctotheface (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Respond to what? The term 'liberal' is perfectly acceptable. you have given no reason other than they claim to be 'progressive' which by the way, I did not remove from the article. Are you saying they are not liberal, and it would be inaccurate for me to call them liberal? Do you have any sources to back this claim up, because I can give you dozens that call them and their founder, and their members and contributors and donators liberal. Bytebear (talk) 00:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to rework the article to put the reference to "progressive" closer to the top, then I'd be fine with that. I could find lots of sources that use "right wing" for various conservative groups; does that mean that the term needs to go into those articles, too? Croctotheface (talk) 00:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

outdent

Why am I unsurprised at finding the usual suspect repeatedly trying to inject subjective labels? The arguments don't hold any more weight than they did the first dozen times you've pushed this, Bytebear. We're not going to start using subjective labels because of opinions; as we've been through dozens of times, we will stick with the adjectives used by the organization itself. This has been thoroughly discussed ad infinitum. Let's stick with policy instead of editorial opinion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Blaxthos, I have never edited this article before today, so please stop with your accusations. Second, your 'opinion' is the one that is false. Self identifying as a 'progressive' when the world calls you a 'liberal' is POV. See the 'fair and balanced' point above. Let's stick to policy, if you like. How about "no self published sources" for starts. Bytebear (talk) 23:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Even if you assume that this organization's publications are "self-published", a premise that I doubt anyone would accept, there is no such blanket prohibition on self-published sources. It is widely accepted on WP that you can use a self-published source for information about the author and his or her opinions. Gamaliel (talk) 23:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I;m sorry? What? The organization's publications are not self published? Are you serious? But good wikilawyering on your part. And yes you can say they call themselves 'progressive' but you can equally say they are liberal. if you want, then say they have been called liberal. I am offended that Blax reverted my changes because they were an attempt at compromise. Something you all should learn. Bytebear (talk) 23:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

So are books by Simon and Schuster self-published? Is Time magazine self-published? Self-published traditionally refers to a single person publishing their own work, as opposed to having it published in a magazine or by a publisher. It is generally not used to refer to organizations like MMfA or S&S or Time Warner which create publications. Gamaliel (talk) 00:10, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, self-published generally refers to a lack of editorial control. MM plainly does exercise editorial control and fact checking. Croctotheface (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

They do fact checking on themselves? I thought they only did conservative groups. Ha ha. Come on, read the article I linked to. "Progressive" is just a lame euphemism for "liberal" and used to create a positive POV. Wikipedia is POV neutral, and euphemisms are not to be used. Why are you so afraid of being labeled a liberal? Bytebear (talk) 00:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't make this personal when it isn't anywhere besides your imagination. No one is afraid of anything. We have a different opinion on what is the accurate term to use in this situation. The key here, which you can't seem to accept, is that we believe that the self-description is what should be used in the introduction. Gamaliel (talk) 00:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

← Hi, I'm from the mediation cabal. Assuming that either party doesn't want their term used because it's a euphemism (I won't link-drop AGF)... what is the difference between progressive and liberal that warrants this discussion in the first place? Xavexgoem (talk) 15:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Xavexgeom, while your efforts are appreciated, I really have to insist that this talk page is not the appropriate forum for a generalized discussion of "the difference between progressive and liberal". Your efforts are no doubt in good faith, however this issue has been the subject of a pretty lengthy consensus in which, in cases of editorial opinion, articles will use an organization's self-description as opposed to subjective labels. Several veteran editors and administrators have pointed this out, and I can't help but question the motives of an editor willing to edit war to service a particular viewpoint. Bytebear is no stranger to the conservative cause, and is wholly familiar with the established consensus. In any case, I don't think we're going to descend into an unbounded "what is a progressive?" discussion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I apologize; it was not my intent. To be more specific (although I realize now that the question is best left undiscussed), I was referring to the difference it causes for the article. That'll teach me to read into the archives a bit more deeply ;-)

So the naming dispute (and heaven knows one-word disputes are hell) is whether we refer to the organization by what it calls itself versus what editors want it to be called? Xavexgoem (talk) 21:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

No apology necessary.  :) Policy and consensus both dictate to avoiding editorial opinion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:55, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear presumably agrees that editorializing is to be avoided - as I read the discussion above, the disagreement is that s/he thinks that calling it "progressive" is editorializing (as s/he put it above, "[s]elf identifying as a 'progressive' when the world calls you a 'liberal' is POV.") I wonder if editors here are willing to apply this same principle beyond this article? Bytebear asked that question above and it was ducked. If verifiable sources confirmed that Bill O'Reilly called himself a moderate, would a revision of his article lede referring to him a moderate commentator survive scrutiny? Simon Dodd (talk) 05:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually, the O'Reilly biography does report pretty extensively on his self-description of his politics, so I'd say the standard here is followed in that case. There may be some reference to the fact that he is frequently called a conservative by others, and I'm not entirely sure that I support that, but there's at least an argument to be made, as "conservative" conflicts with his "not ideological, independent-minded" self-description. Croctotheface (talk) 05:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, so the question is: has "progressive" been/is being used as a euphemism for "liberal" within this article? Or is there a simpler explanation? Or are we all on the same page? (I'm not, but that's why I'm playing catch up ;-) ) Xavexgoem (talk) 07:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC) Also, I opened this case up at medcab. here's the link to the case page

No, I think the WP policy question that should be asked when considering a change is "Does a preponderance of reliable sources show the subject's self-identification (progressive) is false?" —EqualRights (talk) 13:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, then, the standard is that the subject's self-identification trumps descriptions of them in other (possibly hostile) outlets? If that's right, I have a follow-up question that's irrelevant here but bears on other articles to which this standard you've coined applies. As you see it, what would happen if the subject's self-identification was passive and the identification in other outlets was active? That is, suppose MM was broadly referred to by critics as being liberal, and had not pronounced itself liberal or progressive in explicit terms, but had never referred to themselves as liberals and wrote exclusively in terms of progressivism. Would the correct term for MM still be "progressive," or would that tilt the balance, in your view, towards using the description preferred by the media? Simon Dodd (talk) 14:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

If a descriptor were essentially never used, which seems to be the case in your hypothetical, then there's no reason we should use it. Croctotheface (talk) 22:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

(Another reply that collided with the previous one)

Nuance; see Progressivism in the United States and Modern liberalism in the United States.

I believe the subject's self-description ("progressive") is appropriate unless a preponderance of reliably-sourced evidence shows that it's false. —EqualRights (talk) 17:39, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussions past

As interesting as the discourse above is, before we descend into unbounded discussion that is far beyond the scope of this talk page, let me give my understanding of what consensus has been reached in the past. Please note that I've been a veteran editor of many politically charged articles since about 2004 -- after a few years of discussions, the particular details of where and when all these discussions occurred have all blended together. Many of the same editors roam the same circle of articles (with much overlap), and many have already commented to these effects above:

• If an organization has explicitly chosen a description, and that description is uncontested, we use that description in the article.
• If an organization has not explicitly chosen a description, and there is a general concurrence amongst (strictly) reliable sources, that description can generally be used in the article.
• If an organization has explicitly chosen a description that is not prima facie false, and that description is contested, we use that description and then allow neutrally presented descriptions from other reliable sources within the criticism section.

I'd be able to dig up most of this stuff in the archives, if pressed to do so. However, the rules above are a pretty good guideline for working within policy. Hope this helps. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

For the love of god WIkipedia, please be consistant. they themselves say they are progressive. from the perspective of a technical writer, the lack of consistancy in articles SCREAMS unprofessiona/bias/etc. Media matters themselves labeled themselves as progressive, much like [Accuracy in Media] lables themselves as conservative. please maintain the consistancy with how the first paragraphs are written for ALL WIKI articles. the wording of paragraph one, much like a news paper article, is so very important.--71.82.134.111 (talk) 03:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

External links section

Is there any reason there is only one link? I know that is not a reason to add more but was curious. It seems that this site's articles are in alot of El sections.(I am not sure that serach tool is accurate, fwiw) Anyways, carry on :) Tom (talk) 03:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

No idea. I'd guess we're trying to adhere pretty strictly to WP:EL; articles about polarized topics tend to be subject to excessive link creep... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:32, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I actually love it. I figured that was the case. It sort of surprised me. Hopefully I haven't open a can of worms :) Could we apply the same to other articles as well :) Anyways, thanks, Tom (talk) 04:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Revisiting 'liberal' (comment requested)

I know this has been discussed but I think the recent NYT article sourced in the lead is suffecient anough to label it liberal. The article uses phrases like 'highly partisan', 'left-leaning', and 'Media Matters has given the Democrats a weapon'. The article is not an editorial. -Zeus-^u|c 19:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

sources: sourced liberal liberal left-wing liberal liberal

Why should the word "liberal" be preferred over Media Matters' self-description of "progressive" when the two terms have nearly identical meanings in modern usage? There are good reasons why Wikipedia's usual practice is to use a group or individual's self-description when practical. The currently used term of progressive is directly verifiable to the group itself and avoids the bias of having Wikipedia editors choose between the terms favored by the political right and the political left. It should also be noted that the two times the word "liberal" is used in the article you cite, neither use is in reference to Media Matters. --Allen3 ^talk 19:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

From wikipedia:

Progressivism is a political and social term that refers to ideologies and movements favoring or advocating progress, changes, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are.

Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals.

In this case, I believe that liberal more accurately describes their viewpoints. The fact that the actual word is not used in the article, which I never said it was, does not change the fact that the words used in the article are more synomous with liberal than with progressive.

There is also the matter to consider of severity; there can't really be any denying that mmfa is a very partisan organization, and calling them 'progressive' lends them an air of cross-partisinship that I feel is inappropriate for this context. The word progressivism is analogous to the idealogy of traditionalism, not conservatism. -Zeus-^u|c 20:06, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are some sources: liberal liberal left-wing liberal liberal -Zeus-^u|c 20:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think anybody who is familiar enough with politics to be interested in reading an article on MM is going to be confused about what "progressive" means in a modern political context. There is at least an argument (which I suspect you will find unpersuasive, but I'll mention it anyway) that "progressive" refers to present day left-of-center politics that is less in the tradition of the New Deal than what we would term "liberalism." However, the bottom line is, as Allen says, that specifically choosing a label that the group does not choose for itself is not neutral writing, except perhaps in a case where their chosen description were inaccurate. "Progressive" used in a modern political context is plainly accurate. This is the same reason that we would not refer to a self-described conservative group as "right wing," even if there were a number of sources that used that label. Croctotheface (talk) 22:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Crock and Allen have hit the nail on the head. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 10:21, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I have been reading some arguments at the Bill O'Reilly talk page, and they are arguing over conservative vs traditionalist. Since he calls himself traditionalist, but news organizations describe him as conservative, the lead is using the word conservative. Given the high consensus there, I am applying the same rationale here. -Zeus-^u|c 03:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't edit the Bill O'Reilly article, but this would definitely be a case of WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. The consensus for this page is not formed by what happened there. There isn't any reason to apply your own editorial description to the lede. --Loonymonkey (talk) 03:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not my editorial description, I have provided sources (see above). -Zeus-^u|c 04:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the source proves anything about the "liberal" label, it certainly has a lot of good information that should be included in the article. I would just add some of the main points of the source to the article. Bytebear (talk) 04:04, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Zeus that there is inconsistency, and I've raised this issue before. But there is a group of editors who refuse to make it consistent one way or another. "Consensus" has deemed that certain groups are trusted to label themselves, but others must be labelled according to what third party sources call them. It's very much a POV issue, and it's exactly why Wikipedia should not be trusted as a source on political topics. ATren (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not the case that "certain groups" are "trusted" to label themselves; in general, we should be rather deferential to the way that groups describe their own politics. If there is some kind of difference between the word that a group uses and the words that show up in sources, we should then ask ourselves if the label the group chooses is accurate. If Media Matters chose "conservative" or "non-partisan", then their self-identification would be sufficiently questionable that it would be appropriate to reference other labels. However, "progressive" is more than accurate to identify their left-leaning politics; as I've said before, it's arguably more accurate than any other label. Would you agree that it would not be appropriate to reject a group's self identification of "conservative" in favor of "right-wing" simply because "right wing" appeared in a lot of sources? Croctotheface (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The analogy between right-wing and conservative is not the same between progressive and liberal. The actual mirror version is traditionalist vs conservative. I have shown other locations where consensus has called them conservative, even when the person specifically says that he's not. Media Matters has never denied the name of liberal, and I think that it is a useful comparison. I also think that some arguments saying 'I don't think anybody who is familiar enough with politics to be interested in reading an article on MM is going to be confused about what "progressive" means in a modern political context' are complete bull. I thought the point of wikipedia was to make it easily accessible to anyone. When there is no loss of accuracy, and sources are available, we should use the more commonly known word to describe them, even if they don't. -Zeus-^u|c 17:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I have raised the point before and will repeat it. The term "progressive" has been referrenced as a euphamism for "liberal." It is POV to use the term "progressive" it it is trying to hide the fact that the group is, in fact, a liberal orgranization. I will also point out, that Wikipedia's policy on referrences is that they all should come from third party sources. So, even if they are self proclaimed "progressives", you need a third party to note that fact. I don't mind the intro citing their own "About Us" but it should be balanced by third party sources as well. Bytebear (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll reply to both, quickly, in one shot. Zeus, "traditionalist" is a term used by only one prominent figure that I know of, Bill O'Reilly. I don't know of any organizations that describe themselves as "traditionalist," and O'Reilly himself denies that the term basically encompasses a similar kind of right-leaning politics that the term "conservative" does. There is no such argument about "progressive." If anyone here attempted to advance the notion that "progressive" did not refer to left-leaning politics, that person would not be taken seriously. Regarding the idea of "euphemism," it really seems that Bytebear is trying to rewrite the article to force a label on Media Matters because its political opponents prefer it over the one that MM chooses for itself. If we agree that both terms are accurate, there is no good reason to use a label the group does not identify with. Arguably, "progressive" is more accurate, as it refers to a sort of post-Reagan, post-Clinton brand of politics that is less in the tradition of the New Deal than what we'd call "liberalism." Croctotheface (talk) 20:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Both terms are accurate, but even you say that they don't mean the same thing. We have a lot of sources calling them liberal, so we have to mention that they are often called something different then they call them selves. -Zeus-^u|c 21:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure they've been called a lot of other stuff (left wing, left-leaning, independent) in reliable sources. And, for that matter, I'm sure that O'Reilly has been called a "blowhard" in reliable sources, too. You're saying that everything has to go in the article? Croctotheface (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

We have to put it because there is a discrepancy between what they call themselves and what WP:RS do. If O'Reilly was quoted as saying "I am not a blowhard", I am sure it would be qualified with sources that contradict it. -Zeus-^u|c 21:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Croc, the point is, whatever is chosen it should be consistent. It currently is not (at least not the last time I surveyed it). If third party sources are used for O'Reilly and AIM, third parties should be used for MM. If self described descriptions are used for MM, they should also be used for O'Reilly and AIM. Either choice is acceptable, as long as it is consistent. What I would suggest, for all of these articles, is a simple statement in the intro with the self-description, followed by alternate descriptions (if any) from reliable media in the second paragraph. That way, all groups are consistently represented as how they view themselves and how other reliable sources view them. ATren (talk) 02:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

There isn't really a "discrepancy" so much as different sources that uses different terms. You make it sound as if no third party sources use anything but "liberal," but a lot of them use "progressive." The question is what need do we have to use a different term that carries basically the same meaning. It seems to me that the people pushing for "liberal" regard it as less flattering and want it in the article because they think it makes MM sound worse. Regarding consistency, we have no obligation to report only self-descriptions, but when the self-description is at least as accurate as any other term, as "progressive" is in this case, there's no reason not to use it. AIM's self description is plainly inaccurate, and O'Reilly's is at best open to question. In this case, we're dealing with terms, liberal and progressive, that mean basically the same thing, and to any extent that they are different, "progressive" is more accurate anyway. Croctotheface (talk) 04:11, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is less flattering, and that is the point. They choose a word that makes them sound better, even though in their operation there isn't really a meaningful distinction. That's like a terrorist calling himself a 'freedom fighter'. Yeah, they might mean the same thing, but one is explicitly chosen for a decided lack of shock value. That's the problem I have here. -Zeus-^u|c 04:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

(e.c.) I can't speak for others, but in my case I don't care one bit how MM's description "sounds". What I do care about is that there is an obvious POV problem here which undermines the credibility of the encyclopedia. A while back I looked at about half a dozen groups (think tanks, etc) from both sides of the political aisle. Most of the conservative organizations had "X is a conservative" or "X is a neo-conservative" using 3rd party sourcing, without any mention of their self-identified ideological stance. For the liberal organizations I looked at, they were nearly all of the form "X describes itself as..." with no regard for third party labels. It was clearly inconsistent, but when I tried to make it consistent, I was accused of whitewashing or POV pushing by a very powerful editor. So I gave up because I don't need to get into a pissing match with the cabal. But when someone else notices the obvious inconsistency (as they seem to do at a rate of about once a month) I chime in again in the hopes that this obvious problem can be rectified. Anyway, this discussion has my cabal radar beeping like a sonofabitch so I'll leave it at that. :-) ATren (talk) 04:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, there is a difference between self-descriptions that are accurate and those that are either inaccurate or misleading. Without making any promises, if an organization that self-identifies as conservative were described in its WP article as neo-conservative, I would probably agree with you that it's better to just go with "conservative." If that's at issue at another article, leave me a message on my talk page and I'll investigate it and quite possibly lend my voice to your side. But the org you cited here, Accuracy in Media, says that they are not ideological, which is plainly inaccurate, and as such it's appropriate to use third party sources to characterize their politics. Croctotheface (talk) 05:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm going to take this to the mediation cabal tomorrow. I don't see any possible outcome coming from this, we have been butting heads on pretty much the same issue since the beginning. -Zeus-^u|c 05:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I just posted it at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-05-13/Talk:Media Matters for America. We'll see how it goes. -Zeus-^u|c 05:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

(removing indents) I'm going to take a break for this for now. I think that my participation has kept other editors (especially those who agree with me) from chiming in. I just want to be clear that your goal is to overturn the present consensus, which has come down against using "liberal" several times in the past. It may be helpful for some of the editors from prior discussions to weigh in again. Croctotheface (talk) 06:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

How about something like "Media Matters for America describes itself as "a web-based, not-for-profit, progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.", but some critics and observers have identified them as liberal. {cite here}". -Zeus-^u|c 02:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem I see is that the term "liberal" is being seen by some editors as derogatory, and therefore POV, but the fact is, many non-Conservative neutral sources use the term in a neutral way to describe this ogranization. If editors here see "liberal" as a negative term, that's their problem, but it does not change the fact that it is a common term used by neutral sources to describe Media Matters. Bytebear (talk) 19:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Who ever said it was derogatory. It is instead a right-wing term being used to describe a left-wing organization. This is analogous to using U.S. English to describe a British subject. Until someone can provide a coherent explanation as to why this group needs to be described in terms preferred by their political enemies the current wording should remain. --Allen3 ^talk 19:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The New York Times is a right-wing organization? I had no idea. Beyond the sarcasm, since when is liberal a right-wing term? Should we remove every instance of the word liberal and conservative from wikipedia? Besides, I don't see any of the sources that I posted as 'their enemies'. How about a compromise? What if we put in the lead a direct cite from the new york times article, that they are "highly partisan"? -Zeus-^u|c 20:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Allen didn't say that only right wingers use "liberal", just that it's the term right wingers prefer over "progressive", about which he's clearly right. You've already conceded that your goal here is to use the term that you think reflects less favorably on MM, and now you want to introduce an even more loaded phrase into the lead of the article. I think this pretty much proves Allen's point, but you may have also inadvertently shown the fundamental weakness of the "but it's in sources!" line of argument here. Lost of terms are in sources, including "progressive", and we are not obligated to put every single one of them into the article lead. The group's self-description is accurate in characterizing its politics; there's no reason to diverge from that. As I've said before, Rush Limbaugh is frequently attached to the "right wing" label in reliable sources, yet his article only uses "conservative". Is this problematic to you? Should we go in there and make it clear that he's frequently described as a right winger? Croctotheface (talk) 20:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Right now we're 3-1 to include the term, so I think I am going to go ahead and add it later today (the version I posted above). -Zeus-^u|c 19:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where you're getting your 3-1 figure, but it's neither true nor relevant. We don't decide content by voting, see WP:NOTDEMOCRACY for further explanation. --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC):::::::::I don't see any vote; I see a 75% consensus. that's the number of people that have been active in the discussion and have an opinion. -Zeus-^u|c 19:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow, we're having this fight again? Count me in as using the self-description as always. Can someone someone finally explain to me why "progressive" is an inadequate description? I don't understand why this issue keeps popping up repeatedly. Concur with Allen3 a couple comments above. We don't have to match the wording from talking points of the right. Gamaliel (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I just have to comment on something above. The term "liberal" is NOT "the term right wingers prefer over 'progressive'". That is just bullshit. Please don't take offense as this is not a personal attack. I don't call bullshit often, but this one stinks to high heaven. If editors are not going to be honest about the history and usage of the term "progressive" then there is no point in debate, because the debate will be inherantly flawed by ignorance of the facts. Bytebear (talk) 21:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I also concur with Gamaliel, Allen3, and the forty-bajillion other editors who have equivocated the same position before -- there has been no meaningful explanation of why the politcally-charged "liberal" is necessary when "progressive" is accepted and preferred by the source. To John Everyman, "liberal" and "progressive" are likely indistinguishable. The real issue here is that "liberal" is a codeword with extreme negative connotation within the far right movement (see usage by Rush Limbaugh, John McCain, Glenn Beck, etc etc etc), which is surely why we see this aggressive campaign to insert "liberal" (which, otherwise, doesn't carry much distinction from "progressive" in real-world usage). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like you are using a fringe theory to justify POV. There is no real world negative conotation to the word "liberal." There is nothing in the Liberalism article to warrant your conclusion. By your own admission the words are interchangable, and so I conclude you are arguing I don't like it. That argument just doesn't fly. Bytebear (talk) 01:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe that's because that article is about liberalism, not about the world/label? If you sincerely don't think that right wingers use "liberal" to cast aspersions on people, you're not paying attention. But you didn't address Blaxthos's real point: why is it that "liberal" is SO necessary when the group's self-description already accurately describes its politics? Croctotheface (talk) 01:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia uses the most broad terms possible, and because Wikipedia does not reference first or second person sources, but third person sources. So what a group self describes is less important than what the genaral media and academic world defines the group as. Bytebear (talk) 01:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

So we should make sure the lead of the Rush Limbaugh article refers to him as a right winger, right? There are plenty of sources that do. There are likewise plenty of sources that describe Media Matters as progressive, so the idea that we are somehow ignoring secondary sources is just false. I don't really know what you mean by "broad" terms: both are equally broad. You do not seem to dispute that "progressive" is accurate, so I still fail to see a compelling reason to use a word that, as Blaxthos has pointed out, is politically charged and considered pejorative in some circles. Croctotheface (talk) 01:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you can discuss the Rush Limbaugh article there. Second, "Right Winger" is not the most common term for his political leanings, so no, that would not be appropriate. The term "progressive" was invented about 20 years ago as a euphamism, because some liberals felt that term was tarnished. But none of that matters. We do not state facts or opinion as that is OR, but rather, we present things others have said. If you have sources that call them progressive, then present them (and I am ok with their self declaration). But you need to present more than that for balance. I am all for the idea of saying "So and so describes the group as a liberal organizayion" or something similar. And, to ensure NPOV we should include such a statement. The simple fact is that the term liberal is far more prevelant in academic circles than progressive. So, too bad if you think the term is negative. it is still the most common and the most correct. Bytebear (talk) 02:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

But I still don't see why we should. You acknowledge that their self-identification is accurate, so there's no neutrality problem. There's no need to add something for the sake of "balance" if it's already perfectly balanced as is. Croctotheface (talk) 02:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The neutrality problem is that you are only using their self descibed label and ignoreing academia which labels them as liberal. Your POV is that you don't like that term and so you want to supress it. It is not balanced. Please review NPOV policies. Bytebear (talk) 02:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

But why does an accurate term need to be "balanced"? If it's accurate, it's not out of balance. As I said, there are plenty of secondary sources that use plenty of different terms. There are plenty of secondary sources who use the same quote that we do to identify MM's politics, which is really the best practice. Croctotheface (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Best practices says to use the most common and broad term. That is to use the term "liberal", not "progressive". Bytebear (talk) 02:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, best practices says that if a term is contentious (clearly this one is) then use plain, neutral language. There's no need to spoon-feed your opinion to the reader. They can make up their own minds pretty quickly. --Loonymonkey (talk) 23:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

And you don't think spoon feeding them "progressive" a euphamism isn't POV? Give me a break. Bytebear (talk) 01:12, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

You insist that it's a euphemism - so what are they trying to disguise here? If liberal is not a pejorative, as you insist it is not elsewhere on this page, why would they use progressive as a euphemism? You can't have it both ways. Gamaliel (talk) 16:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

(removing indent) Again, neither term is more or less "broad" than another. I'm not convinced that "liberal" is more common either in terms of general usage or references to MM, but you still seem to be missing my point here. We agree that their self description should remain; it's odd to add that other groups describe them as "liberal" when we already have "progressive". Considering that most people understand them to mean basically the same thing, it's strange and unnecessary to add a similar term for the sake of "balance" when the text is not out of balance to begin with. FYI, this'll be my last comment here for a little bit, as I don't think an extended back and forth between two editors is helpful or illuminating for anyone else. Croctotheface (talk) 02:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I've come here as part of the RfC. As a Briton, the word "liberal" as used in the US does strike me as have negative connotations, or at the very least it's much more a term used in a scornful context by rightwing publications and commentators. Certainly in election campaigns it's been used as a scare word. (As a note, "liberal" in the UK has, until recently at least, kept its older meaning of being in favour of individual choice as a principle). So I would suggest "progressive" is better. It certainly balances better with the word "conservative". (Many conservatives are liberals in the older sense of the word). VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Excellent point -- most Americans tend to forget (or just don't understand) both that the meaning of the word "liberal" long-precedes the modern American usage, and that the meaning of the term varies significantly in a global context. With that in mind, "liberal" has a lot of different meanings; "progressive" is a much more precise and accurate term. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 10:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but it is also Original Research. Tbe term "progressive" is not in general use. It is only used by liberals to soften the term from some perceived negativity. Until it becomes pervasive across both parties, it should not be the defacto description of this group. We can say what they believe them to be, but in the general sense, there is no such thing as a "progressive." There is only liberal and conservative (at least when describing the two major factors in American politics). Bytebear (talk) 16:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand WP:OR, which governs content (article namespace), not discussion on what content is appropriate (talk pages). There is not a lack of sourcing regarding "progressive", thus by definition it's not "original research". //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

President Obama and plenty of other left-of-center people use "progressive". Its usage is extremely general. We have a Wikipedia article on it; this is a general knowledge encyclopedia. The notion that quoting a group's accurate self-description is "research" is just preposterous, and if you're going to argue that there's "only" liberal and conservative, I question where it is you're getting your information. "Progressive" is not in general usage on, say, Rush Limbaugh's show, but as others have pointed out, that's because he uses it as a pejorative. Croctotheface (talk) 18:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Given that (1) "liberal" has multiple meanings outside a United States-centric context; (2) "liberal" is (mis)used pejoratively by people of an opposing ideological view; it makes absolutely no sense to choose the ambiguous/confusing/connotative "liberal" when "progressive" is accurate, uncontested, and is virtually synonymous to anyone outside of the circles that use it as a pejorative codeword. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Both of your points are invalid. 1) This article is about a US centric organization, and therefore US centric terms apply and 2) as already stated, the pejorative argument is invalid, as it is a fringe theory, and mainstream and academic sources do not use it as such. What Rush Limbaugh thinks is irrelivant. By the way, there are liberals fighting for the term over progressive[2][3] Bytebear (talk) 01:25, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

A "fringe theory"? Come off it. I pointed out the British use of the terms only to give background to the outsider's view of how "liberal" is used in American political discourse (i.e. there's something of a surprise to hear it bandied about as a catch-all insult). If it's a "fringe view", why does the current American secretary of state consider Liberal to be a negative term? [link here] She prefers the term progressive, too. I cannot see any reason for insisting on liberal as opposed to progressive unless one wants to exploit the negative connotations in America of "liberal". VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 16:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Good article, but I hardly think it bolsters your argument. If anything, it proves my point. Mainstream, "liberal" is preferred. And by the way, WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT applies to Hillary Clinton too. Bytebear (talk) 17:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Nice attempt to sidestep the issue. the point I was making is that your claim that it is a "fringe theory" is wrong, unless you want to argue that Clinton is not a notable person. Indeed, if you read wp:fringe properly, the notion that liberal has negative connotations clearly is not a fringe theory.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

That article talks about how "liberal" has become a loaded pejorative codeword used by people on the right to demonize those on the left, but not used much by the left itself. Far from proving your point, that sounds like what those who disagree with you here have been saying. It's hardly mainstream if none of the Democratic candidates wanted to identify with it but instead went with "progressive". Rather, it sounds like "progressive" is the mainstream word there. Croctotheface (talk) 17:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the article talks about how some on the left feel that "liberal" has become a loaded pejorative codeword. But that is their opionion. The article also says that the word "liberal" was used several times in the democratic primary debates (hardly a right wing forum). Just because the candidates are playing to the fringe, does not mean that it is still not fringe. "Progressive" is not the mainstream. It is not used by anyone on the right,it is not used in academia, and it is not used by the media (except in stories about how the left is using it). Bytebear (talk) 17:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

You're not serious, are you? That article QUOTES academics using "progressive". That article IS a media piece that uses "progressive". The fact that people on the right use liberal more or less exclusively hardly vouches for the neutrality of the term. As Gamaliel said earlier, you can't have it both ways. The basic question here is why do we need to use "liberal" when everyone agrees we should quote MM's self description, which uses "progressive". Sometimes, your rationale is that "progressive" is a euphemism, but if that's so then by definition it's replacing something with negative connotations. Other times, you assert that it does not carry any negative connotations and therefore does not pose any neutrality problems. Croctotheface (talk) 18:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

You cannot say that "everyone else agrees" when clearly they don't. Even the article says so, "The two linguists disagree, however, over the implications of dropping the word liberal in favor of progressive." Yes, I agree with the article when it says, "They are running from the word liberal as fast as they can", and I agree that the democrats are rebranding themselves. Everything in this article says the democrats are doing this, to benefit themselves. And clearly you are too. and that is POV, plain and simple. To sum it up, the article says this, "The only difference between 'liberal' and 'progressive' is that liberals think there is one." (Note the use of the term liberal, not progressive). And that is what you are doing. Pushing a POV because you think there is a difference. Bytebear (talk) 18:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

If, as you insist, liberal is not a pejorative, why are they "running from the word" and trying to rebrand themselves? Gamaliel (talk) 19:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't want my reply to bury Gamaliel's very pertinent question, which deserves a response, but I want to point out that Bytebear is quoting me out of context. "Everyone agrees" comes from the line "everyone agrees we should quote MM's self description," and as far as I know, everyone does agree that we should do that, including Bytebear himself. The question then becomes why is it necessary to ALSO say "liberal" when we're also going to have "progressive." Bytebear, if you're right that they mean essentially the same thing, why are you so adamant about creating a redundancy? If you think there is no difference, why is it SO important that the article specifically use a term that the organization does not use to identify itself? Incidentally, the word "liberal" already appears three times in the text, so it's not as if anyone is on a crusade to purge it from the article. Croctotheface (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The question is, "why is it important to use the term 'liberal' over 'progressive?' The answer is simple. Wikipdeia is an academic entity, and as such it should use academic terms. The term 'progressive' is a euphamism being forwarded by liberals. As such it is not neutral, by it's inception. But, as proven time and again the term 'liberal' is used neutrally, both academically and in news articles, proven by sources ironically provided to try to prove the opposite. I could as easily say you are on a cruisade to supress the term 'liberal,' since you seem to agree that they are equal terms. But I have yet to see an academic or news story that supports this. 'Progressive' simply is not an academic term, nor is it neutral. Bytebear (talk) 21:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

First, as Gamaliel said, the word really can't be neutral if anyone feels the need for a "euphamism" (sic); by definition, a euphemism replaces a word with negative connotations. Second, Wikipedia is a popular publication, not an academic one, but the notion that academics do not use "progressive" is simply false. Finally, you seem to have misunderstood or ignored my final sentence: if I am on a crusade to suppress "liberal," why didn't I delete the three times it's used in the article? There's simply no good reason that the term needs to be in the article lead. It's already in the article three times, the lead already contains a term that is both accurate and sufficient to describe their politics, and the notion that some publications use a different word to describe MM's politics is simply not important enough to be featured so prominently in the lead. Croctotheface (talk) 21:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

(od)Just to chime in for consensus... Plenty of RS's use the word progressive. It is in common use in today's American political discourse. It is more specific and therefore more accurate than liberal, which does a service to our readers. thanks, --guyzero | talk 21:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I have not seen evidence of that. Even looking at the Media Matters articles which use "progressive" extensively all reference articles that use "liberal". Do you have any academic evidence to support your WP:OR? Bytebear (talk) 21:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't address why you haven't seen "evidence" of a widely used term. Why are you ignoring the link helpfully provided 1" above your reply which addresses your concern? --guyzero | talk 21:56, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me give you an example. Here is a source from the article [4]. It uses the term progressive dozens of times, but not one from an external source, only in self description. However, if you look at the sources for the article, they all ues the term liberal (e.g. 1 Dave Astor, "Dems Win, Liberal Material Doesn't," Editor & Publisher, January 1, 2007.) So, it seems the only people using the term 'progressive' are liberals. I have yet to find one neutral example using the term. I am not saying they don't exist. But they are far outweighed by the term 'liberal'. So to say that both are equally common is rediculous. Oh, and if you want to compare search engine results, "liberal politics" has twice as many results. 1,190,000 compared to 549,000. Bytebear (talk) 22:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It is not about comparing search engine results.. it is about demonstrating that the term is in wide use (bonus link) as that appears to be part of your argument. Your exercise above does not prove that it is not in wide use. --guyzero | talk 22:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It is not in wide use amongst academics or news outlets. This I have demonstrated in my many examples. It may be in wide use amongst democrats, or left wing organizations, but that simply makes my case for POV stronger. Bytebear (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

So all of the thousands of books and scholarly work just linked to you is all part of a liberal POV push and should be disregarded? I suggest perhaps seeing if the RFC or Mediation brings in some other input, but consensus seems to remain as "progressive". With regards to use among .edu: "progressive politics" 7,700 hits vs "liberal politics" 5,120 hits. --guyzero | talk 22:38, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, considering the top listing(s) on Google is a by a Russian author or discussion European politics, does not bode too well for your argument that this is common in American politics. Oh, and a search on .edu for "conservative politics"[5] only returns 3780, so what? Bytebear (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Back to comparing search engine results. Bytebear, how many editors have to disagree with you before you'll consider that consensus is that your position is incorrect? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

No, I didn't start the google searches. I would remind you to assume good faith, and review the events before accusing me of anything. Bytebear (talk) 22:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, you've provided your arguments and many people have spent time to answer them. There is an open RFC and Mediation which might give you more input. Until then, consensus is the more accurate term of "progressive" is in the lead. thanks, --guyzero | talk 23:25, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The only arguments I have heard are variatous of WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Can you summorize for clarity the arguements that don't flow along that vein? Bytebear (talk) 16:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Why? Consensus is clearly established in the discussion above, so no need to repeat it so that you can disregard it another time. The onus is on you if you want to change consensus. Please use the DR process and/or accept that consensus is against you, even if you don't agree with it. --guyzero | talk 00:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

It would be more efficient if you took the time to ready the multitude of policy based and interrelated arguments in this section and the Propose putting "Liberal" or Progressive in the opening line section above. This will prevent any of the many valuable insights and reasons from being lost during a summarization process. It should also be noted that while you may not be willing to acknowledge these arguments, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT is not a valid defense against them. --Allen3 ^talk 18:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Why don't we just call a spade a spade. Liberals are using the term "Progressive" to re-brand themselves because of a percieved negative pejorative against the word Liberal. In a sense a "Progressive" is nothing more than a new liberal, much as during Regan conservatives tried to re-brand themselves away from the word Conservative. This slight of hand won't last long, it won't take too long and Progressive will take on the same meaning as Neocon and you will have the same editors fighting tooth and nail for the opposite point of view. I say leave it as progressive, the progressive view is far left of the straight liberal view, and soon enough the rest of the US will make the same connection. Arzel (talk) 01:01, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Glad to see you've spoken in favour of consensus, but I think you're engaging in revisionism here. Reagan quite deliberately called himself a conservative. At that time Conservatism was the "in" thing. Also, given that Hillary Clinton calls herself "progressive", I think it's a bit of a stretch to say it's to the left of "liberal" quite so easily! (And to remind bytebear - I cited Clinton's preference of the term not as an example of "I just don't like it", but to counter your assertion that preferring "progressive" is somehow a marginal or obscurantist view.) I should also like to point out that any reference to google scholar hits needs to separate out "liberal" in the American political sense with the term as it is used in political theory. Some of the top hits are for discussions of John Rawls et al.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 12:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The easiest solution would be to use both progressive and liberal in the lead. e.g.:

Media Matters for America (or MMfA) is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization founded in 2004 by journalist and author David Brock. It is self-described as a progressive research center that monitors conservative misinformation in the U.S. media. They have been described by The New York Times, other reliable source, and another reliable source as being a left-leaning liberal organization.

Phrasing would need work, but including both their self-identification and how they are identified by others results in a more neutral article. -Atmoz (talk) 01:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I have two responses to that. First, any "They say X, but others say Y" formulation is not neutral basically by definition; you can see the entry at WP:WTA on words like "however" and "despite" for the reasons why, but it basically leaves readers disinclined to believe the self-description. It's worse to use "liberal" in the voice of the encyclopedia, of course. Second, I just don't see the neutrality issue with using their self-description, as nobody here has contended that "progressive" is inaccurate. If it's accurate as is, there's no neutrality issue. Going out of our way to use "liberal" as well introduces a redundancy for essentially no benefit. Croctotheface (talk) 05:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. What if Mao Zedong had self-described as a progressive? Would you be arguing that the encyclopedia should describe him as progressive and not communist? It benefits the reader to know how a group self-identifies and how others see them, especially if the others are seen as independent. In my view the NYT is not using the word liberal in the same sense as Limbaugh or Fox Noise. There are differences between liberalism and progressivism. We do readers a disservice by not including both in the description of this group.

"No benefit" depends on your perspective -- if you're a Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Reilly type, going out of the way to use the word "liberal" is what it's all about... :-) //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It is also not NPOV to say X says 1 and Y says 2. Because that's what they say. If you really don't like the dual approach, then you should use reliable, secondary sources independent from the subject as described in WP:V, and not what the group self-identifies as, because that is a primary source that is not independent from the subject. I said my wording could use work, but even so it did not use either of the words "however" or "despite", so your claim that I did is a red herring. -Atmoz (talk) 16:01, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Keep your ad homs to yourself. Thank you. -Atmoz (talk) 16:01, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh please, it'd only be an ad hominem fallacy if the post was encouraging editors to disregard a particular point because it came from a particular editor for a particular reason. The submission was clearly labeled "tongue-in-cheek" humor, though the underlying point is still valid... guilty conscience? :) //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I personally despise categorizing anyone or anything as "liberal" or "conservative" because it is disingenuous, typically inaccurate, it does a diservice to all, and is one of the problems with modern politics. Why not describe this organization just the way it is, and let the readers decide for themselves how to classify it? After all, the discussion on how to classify this organization can and would last forever. --Bsmithme (talk) 09:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Break

Let me take this one a step further... If you concede that "liberal" and "progressive" have roughly the same meaning, then what purpose is served by insisting "liberal" be used? I again posit that, granting the equality of the terms (with which everyone seems to agree), the only reason to continue to insist upon "liberal" over or alongside the self-described (and admittedly equal) "progressive" is to try and use it as a pejorative buzzword (which is only common in conservative circles). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Blaxthos. well said. Yilloslime ^T_C 19:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I will throw it back at you. Why do you insist on "progressive?" If they have roughly the same meaning, why are you removing categories that will help readers find this article? Bytebear (talk) 06:20, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Half a year later and you're still working on this, Bytebear?  :) "Progressive" is uncontested, as their self-chosen descriptor; "liberal" is contested. Since they've been dormant for so long, you might want to refresh yourself by re-reading the section(s) above for the unabridged version. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:45, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I love how you throw out terms like "uncontested" when clearly that is untrue. Progressive as I proved a year ago is a euphemism used by the group to distance themselves from the more common and more widely used term. The Category feature of Wikipedia is to help people find articles relating to a particular topic. Calling this a liberal organization is perfectly acceptable, and more than appropriate. If you want a reliable source, how about the LA Times? "The liberal media watchdog group Media Matters for America..."[6] or the Washington Post. "Liberal groups such as NDN and Media Matter..."[7]. You can say they call themselves progressive, but that is not a third party source, and therefore, unreliable for categorization. From what I can see, reliable third party sources call them a liberal ogranization. Bytebear (talk) 00:19, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Intentional or unintentional bias?

After reading much of this discussion page and then the subject page itself and the corresponding page for Accuracy in Media I have to question the neutrality of the two pages. I normally don't enter into these debates, but I found the obvious bias between the two pages rather disturbing. It's hard to believe the articles can't be written in a similar fashion, with balanced coverage of their positive and negative aspects, similar headings, etc. Toddinpal (talk) 15:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't follow the Accuracy in Media article, but I think this would fall into WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Each article is edited (for better or worse) on its own merits, not to provide "balance" with another article. --Loonymonkey (talk) 17:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't edit that article, so I'm not sure what's going on over there, but I did check the article a little while ago to see how the lead described their politics. It appears that AIM takes the position that they are not ideological, but many secondary sources say the organization is conservative. Therefore, the article represents both points of view there. It's clearly a different case for here, where the organization does not choose a description that is disputed, even though some people prefer to use a different word to describe it. Croctotheface (talk) 17:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Anyone want to venture a guess as to why we've recently had an influx of new editors who seem to think that articles on Wikipedia are mated pairs / tit-for-tat ? Olbermann-O'Reilly, MMFA/AIM, etc.? Wikipedia is not an ideological battleground. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 10:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

My guess is that these editors want the encyclopedia to be NPOV. ATren (talk) 15:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

How is it neutral to treat different cases the same? There's a big difference between an organization that is clearly ideological (AIM) denying that they are ideological and an organization that uses an accurate term to describe their ideology. Croctotheface (talk) 18:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

"Neutral" does not mean correlating two otherwise unrelated articles. WP:NPOV says absolutely nothing about multiple article context; each article is evaluated individually (as they should be). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

"accurate term" - And who makes that determination? Editors or sources? You are implicitly assuming that one is accurate and the other is not, which is itself a POV. My suggestion, to consistently use the self-identification in the opening sentence, then use alternate labels in subsequent discussion, ensures that an editor's POV on the "correctness" of any particular self-label is not carried into the article. ATren (talk) 19:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Determining the accuracy of article content is not any kind of NPOV violation. Allow me to let you in on something: editors make subjective and opinionated determinations all the time; it's necessary for the encyclopedia to function. That a given piece of text is not neutral writing, for instance, is a matter of opinion, not fact. As far as your proposal, if there were some reason to quote someone who referred to MM as liberal, then it would be appropriate to put the term in the article. In fact, the word "liberal" shows up three times in the current form of the article for basically this reason. Croctotheface (talk) 21:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, editorial decisions must be made, but we should restrict the editorial decisions to suitability of sources rather than accuracy of the claims made in those sources. My solution picks reliable sources and reports their words, without making judgement on the appropriateness of those sources. And when an editorial decision on sourcing must be made, every effort should be made to be consistent, even across articles if those articles are part of the same debate. OTHERCRAPEXISTS is often cited in these cases, and perhaps that's a valid reason for not changing "this" article because of "that" crappy one, but it should NOT be used as a reason to maintain "that" crappy one in its crappy state. That's what I experienced in my last foray into this debate.

Certainly, it's difficult to bring multiple editors from multiple articles together and reach an overall consensus, but I believe it's necessary to avoid POV issues in multiple articles on the same general topics.

(By the way, I checked one conservative article that I thought was problematic before, and it's better now, more in line with what is in left-leaning groups, so maybe things are better now than before. If I have time I may repeat the survey I did last year.) ATren (talk) 14:14, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Otherwise reliable sources can be wrong on the facts. It's hard to take seriously the notion that we can't decide that a given reliable source is accurate in one particular case or not. If newspapers were right all the time, they wouldn't issue daily corrections. Croctotheface (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Newspaper Research

I tagged this section as advertisement for one simple reason. It is unpublished research and probably violates self-publish. I am unable to find any evidence that this research has been peer reviewed or published in a scientific journal of anytype. This is a problem because the research presents its results as a statistically valid study. If it has been published then I don't have a problem, but if not the section should be removed. Arzel (talk) 15:59, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The television "studies" present the same problem. I find no evidence that they were actually published in a peer reviewed journal of any type. Arzel (talk) 16:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Is there a policy or guideline that says we can only report on research if it's peer reviewed? My expectation is that we report on lots of books that are not peer reviewed in any way. Wouldn't coverage by reliable sources, which exists in abundance, satisfy WP:V, which seems to be the only relevant inclusion criterion? As far as why the material deserves weight, it's highly indicative of the work MM does, and it's been considered worthy enough material that it received coverage in newspapers and the like. Croctotheface (talk) 18:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

This much different then a book, this is supposedly scientific research. This particular research has all of eight news hits. One of which is MMfA, and at least three of them calling the study flawed. One source used the study to show that it is not biased. One source used the study to point out who was the king of op-ed (George Will), and one source actually reported on the study. One source is a pay-to-view, so I don't know what they said. The point is, almost noone found this study very noteworthy, so why is it included here? Furthermore, almost half the reports thought the study was flawed in one way or another. Finally, the research was not published in the sense that scientific research is published. It was really nothing more than a press release which they call a study, so again I ask, why is this particular nugget notable? Just because MMfA says it is? That isn't how WP works. Arzel (talk) 21:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, you are not "again" asking anything; your first action was to slap a "reads like advertising" tag on the section and say that because it was not peer reviewed, we can't include it in the encyclopedia. Again, there's no reason to use that standard here. In response to the "all of eight news hits" argument: first, that string actually returns 19 results, including the separate articles that Google's algorithm included as "related." But the bigger response to "only 8/19 hits" would be "it has 8/19 articles covering it!" That actually satisfies WP:N's standard for a standalone article, as the topic has significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. The fact that op-ed writers believe that MM's criticism of op-ed pages is invalid doesn't somehow mean it can't be mentioned as part of their body of work; it means we represent the critical opinion as well, as we have with the Diaz piece. Croctotheface (talk) 00:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you are not understanding the relevance of scientific research in this situation. Research, within science, is for most purposes worthless unless it is published in a peer reviewed journal. You are correct that that I missed some of the related articles. Ironically, most of those articles (that are free to view) call the study crap and biased. Also interestingly, one of the biggest complaints was that they didn't refer to the left as liberal, they used "Progressive" instead. Look, I am just saying that the section reads a little fluffy (less after my recent changes), and after looking at additional references, it would appear that the msm view is that the study is flawed and biased. Arzel (talk) 05:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Whether the research is peer-reviewed or not is irrelevant to this article. This is an article about Media Matters, remember? We're discussing their actions. Other than the fact that you don't like it, I don't really see what your objection to discussing it is. --Loonymonkey (talk) 22:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:SPS doesn't just apply to people. Arzel (talk) 05:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The report clearly generated reaction and printspace in a variety of reputable newspapers, making it notable in itself. I think your use of the google news search function is inappropriate. if you search for the title of the report on the simple web search, then a much larger number of newspaper reactions are found, and I wouldn't say it was generally negative. As for peer-review as a criterion of notability, a good deal of rspectable think-tank research is never peer-reviewed and is also self-published, so we have to use another criterion, and the level of media coverage of the report seems the best. This article does not approvingly quote the survey as evidence, it quotes the survey as an example of notable Media Matters activity. I really don't understand how you can say that the mainstream media view has formed but at the same time deny the report's notability. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Vsevolod's point about how to use search results is a good one. This is the second time that this has happened here: I presented search data as evidence that something or another exists in sources. I could have linked each article individually, but the search string is more useful for someone to do their own research. Then, someone else responds by saying that some other search string returned more hits or did not return hits or whatever, and that somehow proves something. Counting hits really isn't productive, for a bunch of reasons that aren't worth discussing here. But comparing results for search strings on Google really does not prove anything, and my linking to a search string was in no way meant to invite that kind of misguided argument. Croctotheface (talk) 06:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, Arzel, you seem to be forgetting that this is an article about Media Matters, not an article about whether or not media bias exists. Media Matters' research is discussed in the article because it is a notable action by Media Matters. Whether you like it or agree with it isn't relevant. Further, your arguments against inclusion (that MM's research isn't reliable because it's not peer-reviewed appears to be original research on your own part. --Loonymonkey (talk) 13:35, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Misinformer of the Year

I have been asked to point to where, in the first paragraph of the link I emphasised, it states that misinformer of the year is awarded to people pushing a conservative agenda. The link is here and the relevant bit the first paragraph, as I indicated in my edit summary. Here is the first paragraph, with the important bits in bold.

Since our launch in May 2004, Media Matters for America has monitored, analyzed, and corrected conservative misinformation in the news media 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Our staff recently reviewed the misinformation we've identified and corrected during those eight months in order to choose our first annual "Misinformer of the Year."

I hope that's clear. Note the use of the definite article in the last sentence (i.e. "the misinformation") to indicate that the award is given for the dissemination of previously mentioned "conservative misinformation." I did not quote the site directly because I felt it would violate WP:NPOV by effectively citing the MMA position favourably. Sorry for sounding stroppy, but I feel my edits were reverted on the fly.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 20:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I think your text is fine; if others would prefer text that uses the precise "conservative misinformation" language rather than "pro-conservative," then we should do that. Croctotheface (talk) 20:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I've no problem with questioning the wording (although I personally think baldly stating "conservative misinformation" is possibly POV). I just find accusations of OR/synth a bit odd when we're talking about an organisation set up to analyse conservative bias that openly states in the links given that the award is for conservative misinformation.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 20:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

As there's been no reply by the person requesting we talk about it, I've put the edit back in. I still think "pro-conservative" is better, because they also cover attacks on liberals, not simply material in support of conservative positions.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)