Talk:Ishmael

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WTH?

At the start the article says:

"Ishmael (The hebrew name cotton means all amazingness traped in a single form for eternity he will be the ultimate savior!; Greek: Ισμαήλ; Latin: Ismael; Arabic: إسماعيل‎, ’Ismā‘īl) is a figure"

But when I try to edit it it says:

"Ishmael (Hebrew: יִשְׁמָעֵאל, Modern: Yišmaʿel, Tiberian: Yišmāʿêl; Template:Lang-el; Template:Lang-la; Template:Lang-ar, ’Ismā‘īl) is a figure "

What's up with the Hebrew name? Has the article been hacked?89.210.189.119 (talk) 17:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmm that is strange. It looks like copying and pasting the template again fixed it though. I find it odd that it managed to slip under the radar like that though, it made it look like it was just part of the template, so I can't find anywhere it appears on any of the edit history. Peter Deer (talk) 18:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks you fixed it, but I can't see your edit in the history page. Maybe that page is hacked too.89.210.189.119 (talk) 18:08, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

That's even stranger! I can't think of a logical reason why that would be the case. Perhaps a sysop should be talked to about this... Peter Deer (talk) 01:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Ismail's own article?

Nearly every character in the Bible who also appears in the Qur'an has his own article. Can we make Islamic view of Ishmael? --Ephilei 21:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Bahá'í view

Some updates to this treatment here:

• The Bahá'í view doesn't warrant mention in the opening paragraphs per WP:Undue weight. In the same vein, the treatment of the Bahá'í should be succinct in the body of the article itself.
• Ishmael isn't a "Manifestation of God" in that religion's theology.
• The "two Ishmaels" observation is not germane as it refers to two different people.
• The Bahá'í Faith takes largely the Islamic view with respect to Ishmael across the board.

Hope this is clear. MARussellPESE 13:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks MARussellPESE for writing the section. --Aminz 06:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Good article review

A few critiques of this article with respect to the good article review:

1. Excellent use of citations.
2. Excellent use of images
3. Covers the topic very well from several different angels
4. Article is relatively stable though a bit less then I would like

Now two minor problems

1. references like Hagar (Bible)#Hagar in Jewish mysticism are probably better handled via a rename like Hagar in Jewish mysticism
2. Some of the sentences seem to mix discussion between references, for example under Jewish Tradition, In some Rabbinic traditions, Ishmael is said to have had two wives named Aisha and Fatima, the names of Muhammad's wife and daughter.[1] This is understood as a metaphoric representation of the Muslim world (first Arabs and then Turks) with Ishmael. Better would be something like In some Rabbinic traditions Ishmael is said to have had two wives named Aisha and Fatima. Those names correspond to the Muslim tradition for the names of Muhammad's wife and daughter. Unless the article means to assert that there is a rabbinic tradition involving the names of Muhammad's wife.

In my opinion this article satisfies Wikipedia:What is a good article? jbolden1517^Talk 21:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

As ancestor of the Arabs

Are there written sources discussing Ishmael as the ancestor of the Arabs from before the time of Muhammad? This should be explained in the article. Thanks.--Pharos 04:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Where is a direct quote from Arabs that they are the seed of Ishmael?

Frow New Advent.org about Ismael

"In his Epistle to the Galatians (4:21, sqq.) St. Paul expands allegorically the narrative of Ismael and Isaac, urging upon his readers the duty of not giving up their Christian freedom from the bondage of the Law. Of course, in so arguing, the Apostle of the Gentiles did not intend to detract in any way from the historical character of the narrative in Genesis. With regard to the various difficulties, literary and historical, suggested by a close study of the Biblical account of Ismael's life, suffice it to say that each and all will never cause a careful and unbiased scholar to regard that account otherwise than as portraying an ancient historical character, will never induce him to treat otherwise than as hypercritical every attempt, by whomsoever made, to resolve Ismael into a conjectural personality of the founder of a group of Arabic tribes. And this view of the matter will appear most certain to any one who compares the Biblical narrative with the legends concerning Ismael which are embodied in the Talmud, the Targum, and the other rabbinical works; while the latter are plainly the result of puerile imagination, the former is decidedly the description of an ancient historical figure. "

Jahiliyyah?

I decided to be bold and change the description of Ismail as "pre-Islamic" (with link to Jahiliyyah) to "pre-Muhammad". Does Islam consider significant prophets such as Ibrahim and Ismail to be in Jahiliyyah just because they preceded Muhammad? Since Ibrahim ayah 39 records Ibrahim praying to God, he's not in the state of paganism that (if I remember right) is meant by "Jahiliyyah". Someone more knowledgeable please confirm or correct this! Nyttend 01:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The term Jahaliyyah is used specifically to refer to Pagan Pre-islamic Arabia. Islam is defined in the Qur'an as the Religion of Abraham and considers all prophets in all times to be Muslims ie. those submitting to the will of God.Royalbengal100 (talk) 17:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The belief that Islam is a new religion brought by Muhammad is surely the most popular even by Muslims, but not islamo-theologically correct. Jah means ignorance and Jahiliyyah means time of ignorance. If there was no truth (islam according to the Qur'an) in that time, what should someone ignore?

Sarah and Hagar

The Penteteuch or the Book of the Law spends a lot of time discussing covenants, property rights and inheritances. As he travels south from Haran, through Syria Abram makes a covenant with El Shaddai lord of the land. As he enters the territory of Egypt Abraham makes a covenant with Yahwah the power of the air. Hagar is protected by El Roi the Power of the Well and after Sarah goes with AbiMelech we have Abraham building an alter and perforrming the ritual of Chemosh or the passing of the first born through the flame. What follows in Exodus is a covenant with the people to be law abiding.

The essence of the story is the comparison of the semitic Sharia law of Sarai, with the towrah to·rä' law of the Sons of Israel, and the Afroasiatic Egyptian hotep of Hagar as regards laws, decrees, commandments, ordinances, the rights of in laws by birth and by marriage laws, judgements as to what is right and proper, decrees, commandments, manners, commissions, rules, norms, mores, and conventions.

In comparing the rules of Sharia, torah, dath, hotep, mishpat, nomos regarding inheritance we have on the one hand the common law and on the other the written law; both are taken in terms of having made a contract by establishing a meeting of the minds.

The question is posed as to whats the relative status of Abrams sister by another mother? Under which laws is she permitted to be his wife and under which laws is that prohibited? Under what circumstances can their offspring inherit? next come the question, well what if she has gone with another man?...what if her husband permits it?...what if he not only permits it but encourages it?...what if he decides its necessary to save their lives?... what if it happens again?...what if its necessary to have a child?...what if she can't have a childwith him ...what if he goes with another woman to have a child by her?...what if she goes with another man to have a child by him... What if the eldest son doesn't survive?...

At the time of this story Hammurabbi has just codified the laws of Babylon and had the code of Hammurabi carved in stone.After the story of Abraham sets the stage the rest of the Pentetuch goes on to look at what we call mosaic law, and then we get that covenant to abide by the absolute power of the written law carved in stone, placed in an ark and the ark housed in a sanctuary in the Egyptian manner. The Egyptians carve their gods in stone, place the stone in an ark and place the ark in a sanctuary.

Then we learn that Yahwah has a consort called Asherah. Like the Egyptian goddess Maat she is a fertility goddess with an eros for wisdom. When judges are appointed the absolute power of the law is tempered with wisdom giving birth to justice.

The bottom line question is under what conditions is Isaacs birthright tsaddiyq tsad·dēk' righteous, just, and lawful and when is it krima or criminal? Rktect (talk) 23:15, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Etymology

Ishmael's name is from Old Persian asma dēla [asma dǣla] 'eighth son', cf. Old Prussian asmus 'eighth', Latvian dēls 'son' (Latin filius < *dhēl-) . Roberts7 11:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberts7 (talk • contribs)

This article is a mess!

It is not clear which son was nearly sacrificed, Isaac or Ishmael. There seems to be both errors and confusion, especially regarding the mohammedan version? M99 87.59.100.128 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC).

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Ishmael/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I will do the GA Reassessment on this article as part of the GA Sweeps project. H1nkles (talk) 15:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

There is a lot of good information here. I do have some concerns that I'd like to bring up.

• There are several templates on the article, I put one on but there are several more, some dating back to December 2008. These need to be addressed.
• The references look good though accessdates and publisher need to be on website refs.
• From a content stand point I have some concerns about the "Islam" section. You quote Watt as saying that God saved Abraham from the burning bush. I am not totally familiar with Islamic tradition but I know that it parallels Jewish tradition in many ways. The only burning bush I know of is with Moses. Is there a different burning bush with Abraham in the Islamic tradition? I just want to be sure I'm reading it correctly.
• Also the reference to Metzger and Coogan as professors of Religious Studies, usually also has where they are professors at, what university. I think it would be good to include that information.

• Regarding that sentence, it is a stub paragraph (a one-sentence paragraph), which should be expanded, combined or removed. Is there any other elaboration on that subject?

Overall the article is really well-written and fine. I would just like to see a little work done on these issues in order to keep it at GA. I'll hold the article for a week, please contact me if you have any questions or need more time. H1nkles (talk) 16:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The article has been on hold for a week and no appreciable work has been done to address my concerns. I will therefore delist the article as it does not meet the current GA Criteria when it comes to adequate referencing. H1nkles (talk) 15:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Rewording

Can someone reword the term "theory" from the excerpt

However the belief that the son was Ishmael prevailed, and this view is continued to be endorsed by Muslim scholars.[5] The argument of those Muslims who believed in the Ishmael theory was that "the promise to Sarah of Isaac followed by Jacob (Qur'an 11:71–74) excluded the possibility of a sacrifice of Isaac."[5] The other party held that the son of sacrifice was Isaac since "God's perfecting his mercy on Abraham and Isaac (in Qur'an 12:6) referred to his making Abraham his friend and saving him from the burning bush and to his rescuing Isaac. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.208 (talk) 06:14, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

"Blessings Given to Ishmael"

OK, I can see how "multiplying" and "being a populous nation" is a blessing, but the rest?

He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers."

Are these really all good things? Normally, I'd refer to such a thing with a more neutral word, such as "determining someone's destiny".--91.148.159.4 (talk) 18:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Binding of Isaac in Islam

"Please read this before u take any silly action"

I have edited this article I dont think there is anything to say because the sources for that was the Quran and the verses of the Quran are mentioned in the edited article and Ive also kept a conclusion and literal proof for the editings I have made

One thing I deleted was the theory that some Muslim scholars say that Isaac and Jacob were both promised for Sarah so this means Ishmael was sacrificed. This Beleif and theory is false! because never does the Quran say in Arabic so? the verses that talk about Isaac and Jacob in arabic states that "we gave her the good news of Isaac and after Isaac Jacob" but what many english speakers don't know is that in Arabic grammer the letter BA was kept beside Isaac's name. the letter BA is a letter kept when someone wants to use the word 'with" so the Quran said we gave her glad tidings with Isaac by using the letter BA but however after that the Quran clearly says and after him we gave good news of Jacob but it doesnt use the letter BA the letter BA was only used with Isaac meaning that the angels came to talk about Isaac but after Isaac grew and the sacrifice occured god told Abraham about the birth of Jacob because the style of the Quran tends to talk about something and then states the future act .. the Quran clearly says that the three angels only gave news of Isaac in many verses i mentioned in the article and there is no verse talking about Jacob and the three angels except this one and like i mentioned earlier this verse used the letter BA to say with "we gave her glad tidings with Isaac'" BUT IT DOESNT USE THE LETTER BA WITH JACOB so clearly this verse talks about Isaac and then states the future of when Jacob was born long after Isaac grew with his father TO WALK AND WORK .. nowhere in Islamic tradition or the Quran it states that Jacob had a relation with the tidings of Isaac.. so this is another proof as well as I MYSELF HAVE EDITED THE ARTICLE AND CLEARY MADE THE STORY CLEAR SO A READER WOULD DEFINATLY UNDERSTAND MY POINT WITHOUT HAVING A LOOK AT THIS TALK PAGE... there are many things i didnt mention AS PROVE OF THE BINDING OF ISAAC IN ISLAM like the birth of Isaac give to Abraham when Abraham left his people or when abraham was ordered to sacrifice the un-named son who grew up with him and was given to him miraculously and clearly every knows that Ishmael was taken away from Abraham when he was just a baby nor did Ishmael have a miraculous birth nor did he live with his father to work and walk ....the quranic verse are kept in the article! ... Il put some here to make it easier to see

037.083 YUSUFALI: Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.

037.084 YUSUFALI: Behold! he approached his Lord with a sound heart.

037.085 YUSUFALI: Behold! he said to his father and to his people, "What is that which ye worship?

037.086 YUSUFALI: "Is it a falsehood- gods other than Allah- that ye desire?

037.087 YUSUFALI: "Then what is your idea about the Lord of the worlds?"

037.088 YUSUFALI: Then did he cast a glance at the Stars.

037.089 YUSUFALI: And he said, "I am indeed sick (at heart)!"

037.090 YUSUFALI: So they turned away from him, and departed.

037.091 YUSUFALI: Then did he turn to their gods and said, "will ye not eat (of the offerings before you)?...

037.092 YUSUFALI: "What is the matter with you that ye speak not (intelligently)?"

037.093 YUSUFALI: Then did he turn upon them, striking (them) with the right hand.

037.094 YUSUFALI: Then came (the worshippers) with hurried steps, and faced (him).

037.095 YUSUFALI: He said: "Worship ye that which ye have (yourselves) carved?

037.096 YUSUFALI: "But Allah has created you and your handwork!"

037.097 YUSUFALI: They said, "Build him a furnace, and throw him into the blazing fire!"

037.098 YUSUFALI: (This failing), they then sought a stratagem against him, but We made them the ones most humiliated!

037.099 YUSUFALI: He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!

037.100 YUSUFALI: "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"

037.101 YUSUFALI: So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.

037.102 YUSUFALI: Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

037.103 YUSUFALI: So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

037.104 YUSUFALI: We called out to him "O Abraham!

037.105 YUSUFALI: "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.106 YUSUFALI: For this was obviously a trial-

037.107 YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:

037.108 YUSUFALI: And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:

037.109 YUSUFALI: "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"

037.110 YUSUFALI: Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.111 YUSUFALI: For he was one of our believing Servants.

This verse says the WHOLE STORY ... a son was given to Abraham after Abraham left his pagan people and THIS SON WAS UN NAMED BUT WHAT THE READER CAN TAKE AS A CLUE IS THAT THE UN-NAMED SON WAS A CHILD GIVEN TO ABRAHAM AFTER HE LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE

019.041 YUSUFALI: (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham: He was a man of Truth, a prophet.

019.042 YUSUFALI: Behold, he said to his father: "O my father! why worship that which heareth not and seeth not, and can profit thee nothing?

019.043 YUSUFALI: "O my father! to me hath come knowledge which hath not reached thee: so follow me: I will guide thee to a way that is even and straight.

019.044 YUSUFALI: "O my father! serve not Satan: for Satan is a rebel against (Allah) Most Gracious.

019.045 YUSUFALI: "O my father! I fear lest a Penalty afflict thee from (Allah) Most Gracious, so that thou become to Satan a friend."

019.046 YUSUFALI: (The father) replied: "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee: Now get away from me for a good long while!"

019.047 YUSUFALI: Abraham said: "Peace be on thee: I will pray to my Lord for thy forgiveness: for He is to me Most Gracious.

LOOK AT THIS

019.048 YUSUFALI: "And I will TURN away from YOU (ALL) and from those whom ye invoke besides Allah: I will call on my Lord: perhaps, by my prayer to my Lord, I shall be not unblest."

019.049 YUSUFALI: When he had TURNED away from THEM and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet.

these verses talk about ISAAC GIVEN TO ABRAHAM WHEN ABRAHAM LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE SO THIS PROVES THAT THE UN-NAMED SACRIFICED SON WAS ISAAC BECAUSE THE EARLIER VERSE THAT MENTIONS THE SACRIFICE SAYS ABRAHAM WAS GIVEN A UN-NAMED SON ....... WHO WAS GIVEN TO HIM RIGHT AFTER HE LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE AND LIKE I SAID .. THESE VERSES CLEARLY MENTIONS ISAAC BY NAME AS THE UN-NAMED SON WHO WAS GIVEN TO ABRAHAM WHEN HE LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE.. so the conclsion is ... Isaac was binded  :)

ps. please do mind my grammer and rush in this talk page thank you Highdeeboy (talk) 09:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Please read the reliable source guidelines - they do not include exegesis as an option. ALSO, TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS LIKE SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET.

I wasnt shouting I was adding where I want you to focus but unfortuantly u didnt! ... this isnt exegesis these are Qurnic verses I provided who cares about Exgesis i Just said that as a historical fact but what better source is there than the Holy Quran ..? seriously Have u had a look at the verses ,, i can provide more but you must tell me what is wrong so I can know?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.188.105.25 (talk) 19:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

and btw This is not called vandilizing this is called editing with providing proof and making it simple with providing the Only sources of Islam .. The Holy Quran and the Sunnah and some History .. WT ELSE? please have a look at it and read it so i can know why was my editiing removed because the exegesis excuse wont work .. i didnt provide any exegesis all i said was one sentecne concerning exegesis .. dunno whats the big deal bout it?Highdeeboy (talk) 19:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not accept original research, which includes takoing something from one source and take something from another source, and combine them to make a new statement, and If you could find a single source that makes your point, then. You provided Tafsir, an interpretation of the Quran, which in English is called Exegesis. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:11, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

NO I DIDNT! Exgesis is interpretation and explanation ,.. i provided verses ... u know what ure doing what u claim u are doing ,..you are using GENESIS TO EXPLAIN THE QURAN SO I FIND IT IRONIC THAT URE CRITISIZING ME AND CALLING MY VERSES TAFSIR BUT ANYWAYS IL PROVIDE U WITH VERSES FROM ANOTHER CHAPTER OF THE QURAN WITHOUT ANY TAFSIR AND U SEE THE LOGIC .. :)

021.051 YUSUFALI: We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him. 021.052 YUSUFALI: Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"

(this is no exegesis iam just asking u to focus on Abraham;s father mentioned here ...)

021.068 YUSUFALI: They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do (anything at all)!"

(this is from the same sura .. it talks about Abraham;s people burning him and his father was obviously involved like i mentioned in the earlier verse)

021.072 SHAKIR: And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub and We made (them) all good.

now take these two points with u ...:Abraham;s dad and the fire happened before the giving of Isaac

Now .. this chapter talks about the sacrifice after .. the two points (Abraham's dad and the fire) see for yoruself

037.085 YUSUFALI: Behold! he said to his father and to his people, "What is that which ye worship? (ABRAHAM;S DAD) 037.097 YUSUFALI: They said, "Build him a furnace, and throw him into the blazing fire!" (THE FIRE) 037.101 YUSUFALI: So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. (whos this boy? ... its Isaac because the earlier chapter says after Abraham left his father and the fire he was given Isaac ....)

037.102 YUSUFALI: Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

common sense ... ansewr me a question .. we both know that Ishmael and Hagar were taken out when Ishmael was a baby cariied in Hagar's shoulder and Abraham left them there ... so how in god;s green earth could this be Ishmael if it says the sacrificed son grew and walked and worked WITH his dad .. this is talking about Isaac growing WITH HIS FATHER IN CANAAN WHEN ISHMAEL WAS IN ARABAIA WITH HIS MOTHER ....

Iam not providing exegesis iam just guiding and helpin so understand my point i cant just say X=0 Y=9 ..iam not telling u my interpretation or opinion or imagination iam asking u to read these verses do research and see the common sense .. i PROVIDED U WITH MANY VERSES FORM MANY CHAPTERS UP! this is extra info .. wt else sir?

please do not provide Gensis accounts because we dont belive in genesis and when u examine the Quran u examine itself alone u do not mix something with it .. thats not called assesment? and besides we dont belive in Gensis so all what it brings is confusion and corruption , thank you.Highdeeboy (talk) 12:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Again, TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS LIKE SCREAMING ON THE INTERNET. Cross referencing verses to clarify them is interpretting them. I am not calling the verses Tafsir, I am saying that they are being used for Tafsir/Exegesis/interpretation. I am not defending the Genesis account. I have no problem with the article including properly sourced additions discussing how there are notable interpretations, but this site is not to be used to advocate any particular interpretation. If you can provide some source that says that some people interpret the Quran that way, then that would be a good addition. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

there is no proof to state your point . i dont want to prove my point about Isaac I just want this page not to mention any thing supporting that Ishmael is the son of sacrifice becuase like i said .. what the article says is WRONG! in language and tradition so please clean it up or ask an Arabic speaker to look up that verse because its Wrong! and proveless ...

=======

019.048 YUSUFALI: "And I will turn away from you (all) and from those whom ye invoke besides Allah: I will call on my Lord: perhaps, by my prayer to my Lord, I shall be not unblest

019.049 YUSUFALI: When he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet.

====== the story is mentiond in much detail in another chapter

037.099 YUSUFALI: He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!

037.102 YUSUFALI: Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!" ======================

i didnt add any interpretation all i kept was the same SOURCE this page uses to prove its point read the verses and its clear ... Highdeeboy (talk) 17:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The Quran is just says that it was "Abraham's son" that Abraham was called to sacrifice, without clarifying. A number of Muslims believe that this refers to Ishmael, and the Quran is ambiguous. You are presenting different verses to advocate the view that the Quran says it was Isaac, when the actual text is ambiguous. That is interepretation. I am not putting my interpretation, I am simply going with the sources that point out that most Muslims believe that it was Ishmael. If a Christian tried to use ambiguously worded Bible verses that were crossreferenced to try to make a point that is not outright stated in those verses, I would revert their edits (and I have so a lot in the past, here is one example). Secondary sources are what Wikipedia prefers. You need to provide secondary sources for your claims. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)