Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

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Nominations viewer note and suggestion

I've started using Gary King's nominations viewer, and I would like to strongly recommend it to those who have not yet tried it. It makes it a lot easier to navigate the FAC page. It's better than the candidate list because it has a lot more information even though it's more compact.

One thing occurred to me about the viewer: it has a way to identify participants in the FAC comments. One thing that's been considered in the past as a way to encourage reviewers is a way to recognize those who review many articles. I suggested to Gary that he might consider running his script over a set of botified FACs and come up with a list of username/# articles commented on for some given time period; unfortunately it sounds like it would require some changes to his code. Such a list would have many shortcomings, as it would not be able to distinguish a formatting fix from an multi-hour review, but it might still be interesting to see. Previous attempts to identify frequent reviewers and provide them with recognition have been stymied by the difficulty of identifying them, but if anyone is interested in writing such a script it might be a step in the right direction, despite the obvious flaws in a raw count. Mike Christie (talk) 00:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the recommendation, Mike. I've just added the script to my monobook. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been using this script for several days, and love it; however, I don't believe it's working with Wiki's wonky new interface. At least that's the way it seems; it was working for me yesterday, and now it's not. María (habla conmigo) 12:52, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-paste everything from User:Yllosubmarine/monobook.js to User:Yllosubmarine/vector.js. Best, Steve ^T • C 12:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, thank you kindly! María (habla conmigo) 12:58, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FAC, GA and GO scripts

I'm going to be away from net for an unknown duration starting in a couple days and won't be running these scripts. I'm not releasing these scripts to the public, but is there anyone who can run python who wants to do the WP:GO archiving from now on? That script is fairly automatic but I don't currently have an appropriate set-up "always-on" to leave it running. Anyone interested in doing the other work? Gimmetrow 14:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MZMcBride would probably do it if asked, and has the know-how to fix bugs if the scripts malfunction for any reason. – iridescent 14:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Easy enough to throw the scripts into a crontab on one of the Toolserver servers. I'm not sure how much time I have to devote to writing any new scripts at the moment, though. There's always BOTREQ if that's needed (though it sounds like you just need a place to run pre-made scripts). --MZMcBride (talk) 14:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MBK004 and Dabomb87 may be willing to take on the FAC/FAR closes. If not, we're up a creek. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can help out with the FAC/FAR closes if needed Sandy, I helped out closing FLCs for a while (before delegates) as well as doing MILHIST ACR closes from time to time. Woody (talk) 17:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Normally I would love to help, but with finals next week for me, I shouldn't be on here as much as I am already... -MBK₀₀₄ 19:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck with finals! Gimme's absence will be longer-term, so anything you can do to help afterwards will be appreciated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone available to botify today's closes? User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox#GimmeBot steps aSandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Doing. Woody (talk) 14:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)~~ Done in accordance with User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox#GimmeBot steps, regards, Woody (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Woody! From your contribs, I see that took more than an hour and a half. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, I have my laptop in front of the tv watching the Grand prix and now the final day of the Premier League so that helped extend it a little bit! ;) Woody (talk) 16:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I botified today's promoted articles but have to run. Can someone please do the same for the archived articles? Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 17:52, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the good bot is still running. Ucucha 21:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:V is policy

It doesn't seem that anyone is checking sources for reliability in Ealdgyth's absence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I started to, and immediately got shouted at for it. Hobby Not Job and all that; yes it needs doing, but so do lots of other things, and you can't blame people for not wanting to get involved in explaining to people that the burden of proof for demonstrating the reliability of a given website/self-published-book/fanzine rests on the nominator. Might it be worth posting a request at WP:RSN? Presumably that's where those people hang out who think "being abused by strangers for explaining why press releases aren't reliable sources" is a productive use of their spare time are most likely to be found. – iridescent 13:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cluestick as to where you were shouted at ? Reviewers do a lot of selfless work at FAC, and I'm not pleased about them being abused or ignored, nor am I happy about the number of nominators who never review. Would someone mind making a request at RSN? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not important (and the shouter immediately apologized). It's more a symptom of a broader issue that in the absence of clear criteria for what is and isn't reliable, people are reluctant to get into this kind of discussion. FWIW, that particular FAC has highlighted what to me is a problem with Ealdgyth's list; while the criteria haven't changed, the way we interpret them has got stricter. A lot of fansites, press-release aggregators and such which were grudgingly accepted in 2007 FACs—and thus are now "canonical" on the list—have been allowed to set precedents for treating as "reliable" sources that would never be accepted today if not for those earlier precedents. – iridescent 14:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I got told off quite handily the last time I brought up sourcing.. I have stopped reviewing so much since then. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 15:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wish y'all would bring these instances to my attention: with Karanacs and me splitting duties here, I may miss some things. I don't take kindly to abuse of reviewers, since without reviewers, we have no FAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Charles, are you referring to the Wolf: A Journey Home FAC? Admittedly, the nominator's initial reply was too combative; I left her a note to that effect, and had she read it before you replied in turn, I'm sure she would have toned it down a little. It's worth sticking around, Charles. You will unfortunately get nominators who respond badly to criticism, but my experience on the whole is that episodes like this are not the norm. FAC regulars can help newer reviewers (who we hope will become regulars!) by looking out for similar incidents and intervening; I find it useful to check through the recent changes list once or twice per day (which is how I saw the Wolf exchange). All the best, Steve ^T • C 15:14, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"High quality" sources

You're likely referring to me iridiscent, so my apologies. LuciferMorgan (talk) 09:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, I must also add I still feel that I don't feel what you've expressed is correct. The sources in my 2007 FACs were not "grudgingly accepted" as you suggest. To be frank with you, I feel like you're rubbishing my Wikipedia contributions altogether, and that's something I do not take kindly to. LuciferMorgan (talk) 09:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for the long delay in responding to LuciferMorgan's query on my talk.

Lucifer, during your recent absence from Wiki, in March 2009 this change was made to WP:WIAFA. The previous wording:

"accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge,"

was changed to

"it is characterized by a thorough and representative survey of relevant literature on the topic", with the words "high quality" added.

(c) well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate;

The discussion that resulted in that change is at Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria/Archive 9. I was not in favor of this change when it was made, do not understand how proponents intended it to be applied, and do not agree with some application I have seen, particularly at FAR. It seems that some editors want to exclude some topics from FA eligibility, that previously would have been included by using sources that "accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge". It is not clear to me how "high quality" is being defined, and why that doesn't depend on the subject matter, as it used to. I felt this was vague when it was added, and have seen it applied at FAC and FAR in ways that don't make sense to me. I'm afraid I can't make the call on this one, as this new requirement was put in place based on consensus after long discussions, and I have to respect reviewer consensus even when I may disagree. You may need to go to WP:RSN to get clearance on the sources that were previously acceptable at FAC, and perhaps regulars here can clarify if they think the new 1c is being interpreted correctly and if the intent was to make some articles FA-ineligible, if there has been no scholarly research on the topics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"It is not clear to me how "high quality" is being defined, and why that doesn't depend on the subject matter, as it used to." - High quality has to be defined in relation to the subject matter. I always define it that way in my reviews (so, for example, The Author's Farce that I just reviewed must have peer-reviewed, scholarly sources, which it did). Sandy, who isn't doing this? You say that this is being "applied at FAC and FAR in ways that don't make sense to me". How so? Awadewit (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should GA and A-class articles be recognisable through a symbol on the article page?

There is a discussion at WikiProject Good articles talk page about whether GA or A-class articles should be recognisable through a symbol on the article page. Reviewers and nominators at FAC may have views they'd like to contribute. This discussion will get notified at WP:CENT in the next day or so. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perennial discussion, frequently declined, no reason to have it again (can someone find the link in the perennial discussion?). How many times do we have to do this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here. It's currently possible to set this as a personal preference in your preferences; IMO, the default should be off (as it currently is), as GA status is far less consistent than FA and thus has far more potential to confuse readers. – iridescent 13:50, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, it's worth having the discussion every now and again, if only because GA standards seem to have risen and—perhaps more importantly—become more consistent over the last year or so. So have at it! Sorry, entering the delirium stage of sleep deprivation right about now. Steve ^T • C 14:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have my preferences set to show currrent assessments, but Wiki editors generally know how to interpret this info, while readers may not. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sandy. I've been an editor for four years, and active at GA for about two. It has not been fully had during my time, for the reason set out in the discussion, that we would revisit the issue once the sweeps had been done. Steve is right, the standards are quite high and the systems for picking up issues (GAR) generally work. I audited about 20 GA reviews during the recent GA backlog-clearing effort and they all came up looking OK. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The process of promoting GAs is not rigorous. I would steadfastly oppose any proposal to mark GAs with a symbol. Tony (talk) 08:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An alternative would be to mark those articles which aren't good as being such. For the casual reader, I think this would be much more useful, although a little disheartening for the authors Fasach Nua (talk) 22:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting alternative proposal brewing is to display a small grid in the top right corner, indicating the article's current assessment, from stub to FA. Can't find the link, sorry. Malleus Fatuorum 23:34, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Plea for reviewers

You hear this from us a lot, but I'd like to reiterate a plea for reviewers. In particular, I'd like to turn your attention to the several FACs near the bottom of the list whose nominators are generally prolific reviewers. This is your opportunity to return the favor and drive them nutty with nitpicky comments ;)

Karanacs (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2010 (UTC) P.S. Much thanks to all those who have been reviewing. Even commenting on one article helps. Karanacs (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Too good an opportunity to miss! :lol: Malleus Fatuorum 19:17, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone object to a trial reverse order: oldest to newest?

Could we trial it for, say, three weeks?

Also, the Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list is great, but when you go into a review page and edit, there's no link at the top back to the Candidate list: you have to go back to the standard, humungous page. Tony (talk) 08:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No comment on the first issue, but in case you missed it, if you want the best of both worlds (the candidate list / full page), Gary King's nominations viewer is superb. Steve ^T • C 09:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think reversing the order will help; when there are NO REVIEWERS, the order is irrelevant. We added the "older noms" marker, that has made some difference, but without reviewers, there's no point in further fiddling with the page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Tony that it's worth trying. When I find myself in an "I really ought to review something" mood, I'll come here and scroll down until I see something that catches my eye; as that one will then sidetrack me, I'll generally never reach the bottom of the list unless I get a "would you mind looking at this" message from someone. I assume I'm not unique in this. We can always change it back if it leads to any problems. – iridescent 10:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that it can't hurt. If it means more of an orderly production line even a little bit then it might be helpful. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could I suggest instead that we ask Gary King to allow his viewer to reverse the order of the noms? That way users of his viewer can choose which way to look at it; if we change the basic page there will be no choice for those of us who, like me, would prefer it as it is. Mike Christie (talk) 11:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good suggestion, I've asked Gary King to look over here. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i suggest we just do it, it's been proposed enough times and no strong reasons have been made against it. We can always change it back.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree—I think it would be better. We say we want reviewers to look at the oldest first, yet we force them to scroll past a long list of (potentially tempting) other ones to find them. No one seems to object strongly, so let's give it a try. PL290 (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we do this, we'll need a volunteer to check the page frequently to reverse noms. Most nominators who aren't brand-new don't read the instructions anymore, and they'll likely add their new nom where they are accustomed to adding it - right at the top. If we end up with a mix of new and old noms in random order than Sandy and I will have a much harder time processing these. Karanacs (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly my concern-- I don't think most other processes on Wiki reverse the order, doubt it will help, but know it will result in a mess for Karanacs and me. S/he who changes it, checks and maintains it, and answers all the posts from confused nominators! Daily. I also disagree that it can't hurt ... it will likely result in delays on the newer noms, making it harder to remove premature noms asap, which could just increase the page size. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:56, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GA noms are oldest (at the top) and newest (at the bottom). At Military History, in the ACR, oldest is at the bottom and newest is at the top. It is very hard in FA to find the nomination I want to review, but I've managed to get to the old ones (i.e., the ones you've asked us to weigh in on), through the talk page, or just by entering the name in the search engine. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Curious, why doesn't the "older noms" marker, or the FAC urgents template, help you get to the older noms? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It does, but it is still a lot of scrolling, and I lose my place. FAC urgents is what I use most.Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note: I suggested to Auntieruth55 on her (?) talk page that she try out Nominations Viewer to do what she is looking for. Gary King (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

thanks Gary. I've added it, but I don't see any difference. (and yes, I purged). Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:14, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The script currently does not work in Internet Explorer. Are you using that browser? Gary King (talk) 20:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Firefox. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your vector.js works fine for me when I add it to my test vector.js. Nominations Viewer works, along with the exclamation mark next to the "Watch" star that contains a drop-down box containing "PROD". If you really want to debug this, then in Firefox, go to Tools -> Error Console -> Click on the "Errors" tab. All JavaScript errors are shown there. Find the error relevant to Nominations Viewer (it should have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gary_King/nominations_viewer.js as its URL) and then copy that error here by right-clicking the error and selecting "Copy". Gary King (talk) 21:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have an ! mark next to (or on the same line with) the star for watch/unwatch. Ileft the error message on my talk page, but it isn't related to your script. I get java script error messages all the time though. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm coming to believe that this mentality about reviewing older noms increasingly explains the backlog at FAC, since it is rarely possible to remove deficient noms early on, due to lack of review ! When I was a reviewer, I usually tried to hit every new nom with a list of "fixes needed" right away. Noms hang around for weeks waiting for a competent reviewer to notice glaring deficiencies. I remain convinced that reversing noms will not solve the problem-- quite the opposite-- if reviewers would jump on premature noms sooner, we could close them sooner. After a read-through today, I again find noms with three or four supports from involved reviewers, before an uninvolved reviewer comes along to oppose. When I get an oppose on top of five existing supports two weeks in, I can't exactly close the nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nominations Viewer now supports reverse nominations

There is no need to force reverse nominations on all users anymore. You can now use Nominations Viewer to reverse the nominations for yourself only, without affecting other users, to see if you prefer browsing the page in chronological order (rather than reverse chronological order, which is how it's setup now). The specific setting that achieves this ability is Reverse nominations (go there to see how to use the feature), which is very straightforward. There are some notes about the feature, found in the documentation page, that explain the caveats that go along with it. Gary King (talk) 19:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Gary ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sweet. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal on promoting reader understanding of assessment processes

I have made a proposal at WT:ASSESS that is somewhat related to the issue of the FA star (and the desire for a GA icon). It looks at a broader issue by focusing more on helping readers understand our assessment system, rather than just focusing on recognizing quality content. Feedback, positive or negative, is strongly encouraged. – VisionHolder « talk » 01:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Before nominating... issue of fair use images

I am considering nominating the short article, Lemurs of Madagascar. The page contains multiple fair use images, which may cause problems for the nomination. First of all, I have obtained written permission from the publisher (Conservation International or CI) to use these images in the manner they are currently presented. This includes an image of the upcoming 3rd edition later this year. I have forwarded their email on to the en-Wiki permissions team. Reading WP:FAIRUSE, the only 2 hold-ups I see concern the placement of the images in a gallery and the need for critical commentary. The gallery is only used because the article is too small to scatter the images throughout the relevant sections of text. WP:NFG states that this issue "should be considered on a case-by-case basis." In this case, I have no choice due to spacial restrictions. Regarding the need for critical commentary (WP:NFCI), I have reviewed each of the pocket field guides and editions as thoroughly as my sources permit.

Feedback on this issue would be helpful. Images could be removed, but I would prefer not to. In fact, I get the impression that CI would like to see all the covers shown in the article. Personally, I feel that they demonstrate Stephen Nash's high-quality illustrations—a critical and highly praised component of the book and booklets. – VisionHolder « talk » 21:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those bookcovers are a problem. Usually we only allow one fair use book cover per article, unless there is some extraordinary circumstance (such as another edition with artwork that requires commentary). If you have no commentary for each specific cover, then I can't see a reason to include them. I see that the fair use rationales say "for illustration only" - the purpose of use has to be much more specific than that. The purpose of use has to explain what the reader gains from seeing the image. See this dispatch, particularly the section at the end about purposes of use. Awadewit (talk) 22:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alright... images removed. Too bad. – VisionHolder « talk » 22:50, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a general principle, would not any image of an as-yet-unpublished item create a WP:COI? (I suppose even for existing publications, a WP article may be in the interests of the publisher's promotion and marketing. It seems different though.) Presumably this question has been considered before and there's guidance somewhere. PL290 (talk) 07:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I wasn't planning to post an image of the 3rd edition cover prior to publication. I would only do it after it was published. – VisionHolder « talk » 13:27, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I mostly echo Awadewit. While it's fine and dandy they give permission to Wikipedia to use the images, we're still bound by internal policy, namely WP:NFCC, which disallows the use of non-free images as you've described unless there are more uncommon circumstances. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 13:37, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wait times to renominate...suggestion for modification of current language

On the FAC page, this line appears:

If a nomination is archived, the nominator should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating—typically at least a few weeks.

I don't think "typically a few weeks" is really fair. It isn't the calendar time that's important here. Its that the issues are resolved, which is directly related to minutes/hours invested in editing. One of those super-editors that edits 6 hours a day can do a lot more in a day than a casual editor will do in "a few weeks." I understand that one of the issues may be that the admins don't want the FAC queue clogged up with renoms that are just a few days old. But if that's the case, we shouldn't say "take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating," we should say

If a nomination is archived, the nominator should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. In any case, to prevent queue bottlenecks FAC's may not be renominated more than once every three weeks.

ɳorɑfʈ^Talk! 05:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in my experience, many more people think they are "super-editors", as you say, who can fix everything in six hours than really are. And nothing is lost and usually much is gained by waiting and reflecting before renominating. Awadewit (talk) 06:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a stipulation can be made where articles with those issues shold not be renominated for three weeks? Certainly something that has failed due to a lack of reviews period should not be forced to wait that long, IMO. Melicans (talk, contributions) 06:56, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm totally fine with a waiting period. I'm just against being told "It typically takes a few weeks to fix issues, so you should wait a few weeks," as that really depends on a lot of factors, including the issues themselves, how much time is required, how fast editors work, etc. If we need to wait for administrative reasons, that's fine: say so. If it really is just about making sure formerly raised issues are resolved, then some FACs will be ready to go back up in a week. ɳorɑfʈ^Talk! 07:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That rule is explained in a bit more detail further up the instructions list: If a nominated article is archived, and not promoted, none of the nominators may nominate or conominate any article for 2 weeks unless given leave to do so by a delegate;. This was added after an RFC (see archived discussion) a few months ago. There are a few big reasons for this:

The biggest reason for the delay is that the list is at times incredibly long, and we don't want to fatigue reviewers by continuing to bring the same article until it passes. The break is partially to make sure that reviewers can also focus on other articles and don't have to keep looking at the same article(s) over and over. (If there was no feedback before, then there is likely not going to be any feedback if you renominate it immediately; waiting a few weeks means that the reviewer pool might have changed a bit, and you may get more eyes on the article.)
As part of the RfC discussion, User:Ealdgyth analyzed several months of FAC nomination data and discovered that in a 3 month period eight editors had renominated articles within 7 days of an archival, and of the 24 articles they nominated, 20 were archived. (That accounted for 18% of the archivals in those three months). That implied to us that most editors need more time to reflect on the problems that were brought up, and that in many cases those issues appear across multiple articles from the same nominator (maybe prose is a weakness, or images, or choosing proper sources).

Exceptions will be made for nominators whose articles were archived due to lack of response. In those cases, delegates won't object if the nominator brings a different article to FAC before the two-week period expires. We also give case-by-case dispensions; for example, we sometimes close an FAC because the nominator states that they do not have access to a book they need to meet the comprehensiveness guidelines. When the book arrives and the work is done, we may agree to let the article come back more quickly. We try to specifically mention this to you when we archive, but feel free to ask even if we didn't - before you nominate again, please. Karanacs (talk) 13:36, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd actually suggest dropping the part after the slash and combining the two passages. The sentence that started this discussion is out on a limb, and would be more helpful if read as part of the same information:

If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of its nominators may nominate or conominate any article for 2 weeks unless given leave to do so by a delegate; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a delegate will decide whether to remove it. Nominators whose nominations are archived with no (or minimal) feedback will be given exemptions.

PL290 (talk) 15:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's pretty good. I'd modify it slightly to simplify it, so that it reads:

If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of an archived article's nominators may nominate or conominate any article for 2 weeks unless given leave to do so by a delegate.
— ɳorɑfʈ^Talk! 02:07, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Heavens, no. We need the sentence about the "no or minimal feedback". When we put that rule in, I went to a lot of trouble to get that language in. Nominators shouldn't have to ask for leave if the reviewers have been falling down on the job!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Need a bibliography section?

I posted this question in the review section for Saint Anselm College, but I thought it might be useful to post here. What is the policy on bibliography sections? This article looks well cited, but there is no separate bibliography section. We usually have those, right? I remember with the Inner German Border flurry in October, working on compiling a bibliography section out of all those newspaper articles. Could there be a clarification of policy or practice, please? Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:39, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No need for a separate section, per MoS. PL290 (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then why have FAC's required them in the past? This is why I asked about practice and policy. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FACs have never required bibliographies; there's no policy or even guideline dedicated to the feature, so it's all down to common practice. Specific reviewers (myself included) tend to prefer them, and have strongly suggested their use in articles at GAC, FAC, etc. They're easier to navigate than a gigantic wall of citations, and make enabling shortened citations much easier, especially for those who do not use templates for print sources (again, myself included). If you think the article would be better using a bibliography, you of course can advocate for its use. If not, no worries. María (habla conmigo) 19:14, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the general practice is that articles very commonly use only a single section. This impression is confirmed by my findings when I ask the question of the first article in each of the first five categories at Wikipedia:Featured articles, does it have a separate bibliography section:

PL290 (talk) 19:19, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It may be worth noting that Acetic acid and Actuary are both far too thinly cited to pass FAC today, though I'm not disputing your general point. Steve Smith (talk) 19:24, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It all depends on what kind of sources the article has. If the article uses lots of web-based sources, I find that a single section is easier, as there is no need to repeat the information. If the article uses lots of books and there are many footnotes to different pages, I find two sections is easier. I think the point is that the references should make finding the information in the sources as easy as possible. Awadewit (talk) 20:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In practice, that's the case. Video games/pop culture often have a single "references" section (Halo 3: ODST, Super Columbine Massacre). The majority of the references in those articles are web or single-page news articles, and aren't relying on those sources for more than a few citations. More scholarly, established articles will trend towards books and longer-form reference, meaning more page numbers, more citations, and more specificity needed in the footnotes, thus two sections. The same approach doesn't always work across the board. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cyclone Gonu's FAC, and other tropical cyclone FAC's

I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong. I retired last year, and when I came back this year, I was hoping things would be different. I reviewed some other FAC's (and asked for their critiques), and so I nominated a significant cyclone article that I first wrote three years ago. It was a bit of a collaboration getting it to FAC, but despite all of that (and it being an urgent FAC), it has no supports or opposes, and I just have this feeling that it's going to be failed soon due to lack of review.

I know it's a perennial problem at FAC, the lack of reviews, but it's disheartening that something can be failed so easily after all of the work done do it. Honestly, is part of a general fatigue of tropical cyclone articles? For starters, I have more-or-less convinced the other primary TC article writers to have one FAC at a time. Additionally, we (TC article writers) can't do too much reviewing: first, there are only a handful (about five) of writers, and most of us work on all of the articles; second, when we don't work on them, we give the reviews before it ever reaches FAC.

End rant, I guess ;) Hurricanehink (talk) 02:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]