Jump to content

Talk:Yue Chinese

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 86.182.212.198 (talk) at 23:51, 13 July 2010 (→白話). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

白話

白話 is Cantonese, not Yue, correct? That is, is Taishanese considered 白話? — kwami (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No it's actually quite the opposite - 白話 used in the context of Cantonese is what you'd call the prestigious/"accurate" Cantonese dialect - i.e. Guangzhou. This dialect is spoken with little variation in Nanning and Hong Kong. But in the greater context, 白話 simply means "vernacular"; that is, as opposed to "literary" or "incomprehensible". So in any given situation 白話 could mean something different - i.e. someone from Maoming, Dongguang could call their own language 白話 while speaking to their family members to indicate an in-group context (we speak 白話, outsiders speak another type of 話). Regardless, no GZ/HK dialect speaker will ever call Taishanese 白話, because it is not very intelligible to them - to the point that it has a well-established separate identity. Taishanese is thus not considered 白話. However, to my knowledge there is no other Cantonese (Yue) dialect that has established itself with such a strong separate identity. Everyone else basically thinks they're speaking in "Cantonese", i.e. 廣東話、粵語. Colipon+(Talk) 04:57, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks. That's more or less what I corrected the article to; I just didn't want to miscorrect it. I'll also change the trans. of 白話 to "vernacular", as that should be more informative than a literal gloss. — kwami (talk) 07:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article refers to 白话 as used by in Guangxi and Guangdong, in Guangxi 白话 in this context refers to the Guangzhou lect which is also spoken in Guangxi in areas along tributaries of the Perl River and the coast, in this context it does not mean "vernacular" . "vernacular" is another use of term 白话 to give it as a translation is to say the least confusing. The meaning of 白话 within the context of the article is clear including another meaning is leaving the topic, there is now a link to 白话 in the wiktionary for those who wish to understand more the various meanings of 白话.Johnkn63 (talk) 07:32, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

白話: Originally towards the end of the 19th century, there was a 白話 (Bai Hua) movement amongst students and educationalists. Note the Bai Hua was the vernacular of the North, ie modern day Putonghua. The demand was for the use of Bai Hua (the vernacular or plain straight forward speech) in written as well as spoken communications rather than Guan Hua (Speech of Officialdom), so that education could be brought to the masses and masses of poor and ordinary people. Thus the pronunciation of Chinese characters in Bai Hua and Guan Hua are the same, just that Guan Hua was the reading and speaking out of the written literary Chinese characters. In the Guangzhouhuaphone area it was quite natural to read "Bai Hua" in the Guangzhouhua pronunciation "Baak Wa", so for Guangzhouhua speakers Baak Wa refers to natural spoken Guangzhouhua, rather than reading out formal literary-style Chinese characters in Guangzhouhua pronunciations.
Okay, I didn't think it was a synonym for "Yue". Perhaps it should be deleted altogether, or moved to Cantonese if it isn't there already.
But once again, how many more times are you going to change the title of this article? 86.177.122.226 (talk) 01:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
None at all. The article was at an improper name; people fought over all other possible names; it was left at a temporary improper name until 'Cantonese' was sorted out; there was consensus to move to the current title but multiple fights in carrying out that consensus. Now that all that is finished, the article should be stable. — kwami (talk) 01:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

白话 is not really a name for Yue, so I'm not sure what it explains to the reader, but no biggie.

Actually in some instances 白话 refers to Yue, certainly in Guangxi, the earlier version of this section somewhat oversimplified the picture. In Guangxi 白话 refers to the Guangzhou dialect, but also to Yue there is 玉林白话, 南宁白话, 梧州白话 Johnkn63 (talk) 09:49, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, we say that 廣東話 is used by "Cantonese" emigres abroad. However, it's not clear what we mean by "Cantonese". Is it a term used by Taishanese, who make up the bulk of the overseas Yue community? And does it mean both Cantonese and Taishanese if it is? — kwami (talk) 08:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The section "Names" though it rambles a little is acceptable, it is as you say the phrase "Cantonese immigrants abroad" which is unclear and should be clarified by someone who is clear what it means. Johnkn63 (talk) 15:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Mr Kwami, "we" are very clear what Cantonese means. It is "you" (Kwami) who do not know what Cantonese means. Mr Kwami please do not confuse yourself with "us". Mr Kwami, the reason why you do not know what Cantonese means is because you are not one of "us". And it is no wonder you do not know what Cantonese means because you simply do not know Cantonese. Please stop messing about with this article. 86.183.82.223 (talk) 00:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since you're the expert, would you please answer the question, so we can fix the article? Or would you prefer the article be wrong, so that you have something to complain about? — kwami (talk) 02:29, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then I suggest you unlock the article. However that still does not make you one of "us". 86.184.41.85 (talk) 21:09, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, you want an ethnic walled garden. Sorry, no place for that here. And you are evidently not interested in improving the article, so we have no use for you: Talk pages are for improving the article, not WP:soapboxing. — kwami (talk) 21:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How does unlocking the article make it an ethnic walled garden? If the article was not messed up by you in the first place, why would it need changing back and forth for "improvements"? 86.178.231.216 (talk) 00:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, not for sniping. You obviously are not interested in editing the article, since you haven't even tried. Please come back when you have something constructive to say. — kwami (talk) 01:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mr Kwami, please leave and don't come back until you have acquired a working knowledge of Cantonese. You have already inflicted enough damage on this article. Please leave the editing to people who do know what they are writing about. In making an encyclopedia trying is not good enough. 86.182.212.198 (talk) 23:51, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Cantonese" explanation

The article's "note" on the common name "Cantonese" states: "In English, the name "Cantonese" generally refers specifically to the dialect of Guangzhou (Canton), which has spread to Hong Kong and Macau and emerged as the prestige dialect of Yue."

This is not factually correct. Overseas Chinese who emigrated from what is presently known as the Dongguan-Zhuhai-Zhongshan area all call their home dialect "Cantonese" when speaking in English. These are certainly not dialects based on Guangzhou. Thus it is not correct to say that "Cantonese" generally refers to Guangzhou, Hong Kong, and Macau. If anything, "Cantonese" generally refers to all of Yue. Colipon+(Talk) 03:13, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Colipon, you know that when we decided on the name Cantonese we had a long debate with dozens of references demonstrating to most people's satisfaction that that is the primary use of the name "Cantonese" in English, and that your conclusion above was found to be incorrect. That said, if you want to propose a different wording that you feel would be more accurate, please feel free. — kwami (talk) 04:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The specific dialect that is spoken in Guangzhou/Hong Kong/Macau/etc is commonly called Cantonese. This is a fact. The possibility that emigrants from the Dongguan-Zhuhai-Zhongshan area also call their home dialect Cantonese is not in conflict with that fact. If anything, we just need to include the regions mentioned in that article to include the Dongguan-Zhuhai-Zhongshan area. This is not a naming issue, and it's probably better for the talk page of that other article. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 13:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've raised it a couple of times already. See Talk:Cantonese#Concentric Proposal. I think you disagreed with that approach. Colipon+(Talk) 21:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On this point the article Yue Chinese is a little self contradictory, for the term "Cantonese proper" it includes the Dongguan-Zhuhai-Zhongshan area and links to the page Cantonese.Johnkn63 (talk) 22:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article links

The biggest problem, actually, is article links. Some of the links to "Cantonese" are actually meant to be linked to what is now "Yue Chinese", while some link to the GZ-HK variety "Cantonese". Others are linked to "Cantonese" refer ostensibly to the "standard" form. Others still are ambiguous altogether. In addition, all the inter-language wiki links are also now a mess for good. As some languages may choose to follow this "Yue Chinese" convention, while others will continue to maintain "Standard Cantonese". Of course, everyone who vehemently wanted this article at "Yue Chinese" and argued for it has now left, now the dust has been settled and the pages archived. But the real problems that it has caused this encyclopedia will last for a long time yet. Partly because users like myself have been exhausted by all the back-and-forth posturing and argumentation, I can only sigh at what a colossal waste of time this whole affair had been, and how much more difficult it has become to pass on our collective wisdom about this language to our curious readership. Colipon+(Talk) 23:14, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article links have been a mess for years. I've spent hours cleaning them up, none too successfully. I don't think we should have any links to "Cantonese" at all: they should all be to Yue, Canton dialect, or Standard Cantonese, etc., and can be redirected from there. New 'Cantonese' links will pop up all the time, of course; someone will need to go in periodically and reassign them. This would be the case no matter which article occupied the name 'Cantonese'.
As for the interwiki links, I'll take a look. There will always be a problem when one wiki has two articles to another's one. — kwami (talk) 23:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Yue_Chinese&oldid=373351506"