Template talk:Cham Albanians

Citation on the template

I saw that there were made a number of changes on this template, on reasons that are not common to wikipedia policy and common logics. 1. Assembly of Preveza, as the article says it was held in Preveza (Chameria region) and was composed mainly from 200 Cham and Lab Albanian leaders, which means that is part of Cham Albanians history. 2. Tsamiko and Dance of Zalogo are dances of Chams (and of other people) but for sure they are dance from Chams (and originate from them) so I see no reason for putting them out. 3. Preveza · Ioannina · Fanari · Louros · Thesprotiko, are all of them sourced on Chameria and Cham Albanians pages. 4. Himara, as a place where Chams went after they were expelled is sourced by Vickers, in her 2002 book. 5. Aristidh Ruci and Kristo Meksi were both Chams, from Ioannina. Being from Ioannina does not make them not Chams, as the Albanian population of Ioannina was both Labs and Chams. 6. Kitsos Tzavelas · Kitsos Botsaris · Kristo Meksi · Markos Botsaris · Moscho Tzavela were all Souliotes and they are part of Chams history, as they at least spoke the Cham Albanian dialect.

If there is any reason for removing them, please provide sources. Thank you, Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Some of the edits are irrelevant with this community like: Zalongo Dance, Tsamiko, at least there is not a single source that claims this so far. As for the individuals Meksi, Ruci, were from Ioannina an are which is not inside Chameria or least not considered Chams by any source. The Souliotes are not classified as Chams or Cham Albanians or even Albanians since their ethnicity wasn't that clear (see also Souliotes, linguistics should not be confused with ethnicity). Also Boua wasn't born there or at least considered as such (Cham) by any source.

As for the Assembly of Preveza I agree that is must be part of the template, same with Himara.Alexikoua (talk) 15:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, then, we need sources about the rest. So, I am putting back Tsamiko per this source that states that tsamiko is named after Cham Albanians ans searching for sources about the rest. Thanks, Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the name itself does not necessarily imply origin or some kind of cultural connection. See Talk:Tsamiko.Alexikoua (talk) 19:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Although you're correct in that obvious etymological connections do not necessarily imply historical causation, I must point out sourced statements such as "Cham Albanians have made rich contributions to Greek culture, including the Tsamiko dance", for instance, and "Tsamiko, the classical and athletic dance, has its origin from the Albanians". That's good enough for me, and it's good enough for you. Understand? DS (talk) 21:10, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Per these two new sources, no question about it: Tsamiko is back! Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

There's no preview in those links. In any case, there's no dispute over whom the dance is named after. We need sources that it's part of Cham culture, all sources I've seen speak of tsamiko as a Greek dance.--Ptolion (talk) 21:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

What kind of childish game is this? There is a preview about Tsamiko stating something completely different These quotes are not confirmed inside: [[1]][[2]]. Actually the one source says: [[3]] Tsamiko the classical and athletic dance has its origins from the ancient Greeks (not Albanians). Lolol.Alexikoua (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Lol, your propably right, I took them as granted and didnt check them, sorry.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that the article tsamiko discusses the Greek dance, not a whatever it is they are dancing in Albania, and Dance of Osman Taka is included in the template.--Ptolion (talk) 21:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

No, this is not the case Ptolion. I am not speaking about the Dance of Osman Taka, but about another cham dance called "the cham dance" (vallja çame) or çamçe, which is Tsamiko, I have to find a source though.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

It's kinda personal but since I was on several festivals in Albania, I know that what's known 'Tsamiko' isn't danced by Albanian groups (not even by Greeks living in Albania). Cham Albanians have their dances, but they don't dance what's known 'Tsamiko'. Can you give me some example on youtube on what you mean vallja came?Alexikoua (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I remember B.W. provided several links to Youtube videos last year demonstrating what he considered an authentic "Vallja çame". None of them was like the Greek Tsamiko. The general character and stance of the dance figures is similar, but the rhythm, music and basic steps are entirely different. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:42, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

That's weird - that's not what I remember the book URLs linking to last time. DS (talk) 01:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

According to the main settlements section, I see that the city of Ioannina is included in this list. Since the related article (Chameria), does not include Ioannina as part of the region, something that's also obvious on the lead map, it isn't considered part of this region.Alexikoua (talk) 05:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I've removed some of the latest unexplained additions by Balkanian [[4]]: Addition of Souliote personalities in the Cham individuals to support the usual pov. Since there is not a single (20th century) wp:rs that makes them identified as Chams, placing them again here (as Balk. did twice before) isn't a good idea. I've removed some red links of deleted or non-existent articles, as well as the Dance of Zalongo: apart from an offline source [[5]] we can't verify that this is part of the Cham tradition, editor has been informed about the possible removal.Alexikoua (talk) 19:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately I was blindly reverted, always for the usual reasons.Alexikoua (talk) 20:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

What's pov is you labeling as unexplained additions BW's edits(and you were reverted because you make edits without verifying your claims). You're claiming that there are no 20th century sources but this is a 20th century and reliable source[6]--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to get involved in your dispute but don't you think that before making any changes you should at least check for sources? There's no deadline so take your time and try reaching a consensus.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The typical disruption: As I see you still have to explain why you restored the Dance of Zalongo, ignoring the diffs about the past discussion with Balkanian. Moreover, you still need to give at least one source that labels these persons as Chams (i.e. Markos Botsaris a Cham). Giving in general one of many theories that links the Souliotes with Albanian ethnicity means nothing (is this footnote that lacks inline the only you could find against a mountain of bibliography about Souliotes?).

Moreover I suggest you use non-pro Albanian authors to support your arguments. My edits are in agreement with the mainstream bibliography. As I've see even Albanian authors of the 18th-19th century clearly distinguish Souliotes from Tsamides, so I don't see a real problem to distinguish them here.Alexikoua (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The Souliotes now have their own template. There is no need to include them here, especially when the only source that explicitly includes them amongst the Chams is from the 19th century. Athenean (talk) 20:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)That's Pettifer and Nazarko, they have co-written the book and Nazarko is a distinguished professor and analyst, so were I you I wouldn't raise any reliability issues. Nonetheless if that causes such a large dispute and if the rest agree we could just link from this template an entry (titled Souliotes or something similar) to the Souliotes template--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:41, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

The specific section is written by Petiffer and neutrality issues are not raised by me [[7]]. If a specific author is the only one that adopts a view not accepted by mainstream bibliography it's better to treat him with caution. This is not about how we like it, but how mainstream bibliography treats these issues.Alexikoua (talk) 20:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

This is all irrelevant, we are talking about a template here. The mere fact that this template is already quite bloated, and that the Souliotes have their own template is all that matters. Athenean (talk) 21:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

When you are done, Athenean, I'll propose to merge them to the Arvanites template, unless the Suliotes template is pretty large of course. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 05:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Good luck with that. Athenean (talk) 05:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Ioannina

I don't understand what do you mean when you are writing Although not part of Chameria region, Ioannina used to be a cultural center of Cham Albanians and a place where a considerable number of them lived.

• What do you mean cultural centre of Cham Albanians?I know that many Albanians attended Zosimaia School in Ioannina but as long as I know Ali Aslani,Kostandin Kristoforidhi and the Frasheris were not Chams.

• When you are are writing that a considerable number of them lived in Ioannina,be more specific;how many?what % of the Cham Albanian total population lived in Ioannina and what % of Ioannina's population were Chams?According to many sources such as Hobhouse,Hahn,Holland,Sami Frasheri etc Albanian population of Ioannina was a minority in adition to Greeks who were the majority.Also,some other people like Essad pasha and Kadri Gjata used to live there but they were not Chams. Pavlos1988 (talk) 02:34, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Wholeheartedly agree. The template needs a general cleanup, as it is bloated with several irrelevant entries. Athenean (talk) 06:05, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I have removed: a) articles about medieval events or personalities that have nothing to do with the Chams, b) individuals not closely associated with the Chams (e.g. Katerina Botsari) that are moreover part of Template:Souliotes, c) Ioannian and Parga, settlements not associated with Chams and whose articles make no mention of the whatsoever. Not sure if we need Chicago, Izmir, Boston et al., as they also make no mention whatsoever of the Chams, however, I will leave them for now. Athenean (talk) 06:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

id too be interested to see the connection between chams and parga..i thought that it actually was a greekspeaking town (unlike eg Gogozotos birthplace rapeza a bit to the north which was albanianspeaking..) amidst the albanianspeaking territory..87.202.19.161 (talk) 09:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

im also not sure about mentioning preveza (the town i mean) and even louros-thesprotiko since the chams lived a bit northeast of that area..87.202.19.161 (talk) 09:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I know that some Cham Albanians lived in Preveza, pe Dino family,but i don't know the specific number. 79.107.170.146 (talk) 18:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Pavlos1988 (talk) 18:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed Louros and Thesprotiko since we all agree on that, and I also removed Fanari and Preveza, since I've never heard of any Chams living there in significant numbers. Athenean (talk) 00:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't able to find anything about Chams there in the literature, so I removed them, though I left Preveza for now. Seems like someone had re-added them without any discussion whatsoever. Also removed Gjin Bua Shpata, I have never seen *any* source refer to him as a "Cham" (and doubt I ever will). Athenean (talk) 22:48, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

You should have searched for Lulov-a/o/e/ë regarding Thesprotiko, Lur-ë/a/o regarding Louros as for Fanari/Frari on google books there are many references. Btw I'm readding Ioannina because it had a substantial Albanian population, it was one of the two centres of the League of Prizren in the southernmost part of the League's claimed territory, historically it has been related to Cham Albanians(among other people that lived in the town) and there was no consensus to remove it.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Disruption by Zjarri

The specific revert has a completely wrong edit summary [[8]] (as per Fut. Perfect? lol very funny) and is the definition of 'blind revert'. The specific towns that Zjarri re-added were inhabited by Orthodox population and as per sources (Hart, Kretsi) were were rarely or never identified as Chams. Of course something that's 'very rarely' doesn't deserve to be mentioned on a template.

What's really childish on this issue is that Balkanian has apologized in the past about insisting on this[[9]].Alexikoua (talk) 16:06, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I reverted you per this edit of FutureP I found in the Cham Albanians history page [10]. The summary of that revert is my reply to your only-Muslims definition.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:15, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Alexi, could you please leave asside these npa violations childish??? We've been around for a long time to keep insulting each other. If BW doesn't know something, that doesn't mean someone else can't enter it in wikipedia. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 16:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

(Sulmues I would appreciate if you avoid npa vios this time) Since something that's 'very rarely' isn't the rule, in case it should stay we have to create a footnote and inform that they were 'very rarely' mentioned as such. I'll make the appropriate addition the following minutes.Alexikoua (talk) 16:24, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Alexi, I pointed to the fact that you called someone's actions childish, so please don't turn the accusation around. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 20:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

someone needs to source thesprotiko and louros since ive always seen them as being non cham...one source in teh cham albanians page was used erroneously so i removed it (it said '# Prévéza: dans la partie du département de Prévéza limitrophe de la Thesprotie (Prévézaniko) et dans quelques villages au nord de Thesprotiko' how 'au nord de Thesprotiko' became 'including Thesprotiko' i dont know)..can someone tell us what xhufi says?87.202.37.26 (talk) 23:46, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Not surprised. The reason the sourcing is confusing is because the editor responsible for Cham Albanians is a master falsifier of sources. He searches google by keyword search, finds anything that will fit his preconceived notions, and then writes ό,τι του κατέβει. He also makes sure to use offline sources as much as possible, for obvious reasons. Given this situation, anything that cannot be verified can be safely removed. Athenean (talk) 23:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

@Sulmues: If someone apologize and then continues to edit like nothing happened then this is childish.Alexikoua (talk) 05:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

In the typical fashion of disruption we have another revert performed [[11]], as already stated the towns of Louros, Fanari, Thesprotiko were inhabited by Orthodox communities [[12]]. Mysteriously the same editor that performed the revert was previously aware that these settlements were inhabited by such communiteis [[13]].Alexikoua (talk) 19:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

You removed Kastriot too in that edit so I used FutureP's edit summary. Xhufi states that there were also Orthodox Cham Albanian villages in Preveza. You don't have any sources that verify that Lurë and the other villages except for Kastriot were Orthodox while I do have sources about their religion. Btw the president of the Albanian club of Lura(Bashkimi) was named Riza Murteza, while the other members of the its central committee were named Abdullah Imami, Fuat Frasheri, Husejn Zuhdiu, Izet Musliu and Ramiz Efendiu. I have whole lists with members of these organizations in all these villages so Alexikoua don't try to refute my arguments with speculations and sources you don't have.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Ioannina was *never* part of "Chameria" and you know this full well (and of course no sources ever include it as part of "Chemeria"). Placing it in the template is simply misinformation and OR. Athenean (talk) 19:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

This template is "Cham Albanians" so it doesn't have to be Chameria to be included in the template. As for the relevance of its placement: the first non-Turkish newspaper of the town was Zgjim i Shqiperise so the verdict is on that fact.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:39, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Your OR interests no one, and me least of all. Athenean (talk) 19:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Athenean please be more careful. I reverted you, because Cham Albanians lived in Ioannina. As a matter of fact you have within "Northern Epirotes" template settlements that are NOT part of Northern Epirus. Why would you want to use a double standard? --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Nothing more than orguments to create disruption. Of course, noone cares about ulranationalists organization lists someone possess.Alexikoua (talk) 20:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

They were as ultranationalist as all the other national organizations anywhere have been and btw that was made to give you a hint regarding the religious affiliation of Lura.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

At the very minimum, Ioannina should be moved from "Chameria" to "Other", since Chams lived there but it was never part of "Chameria". Athenean (talk) 20:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I moved it from "Chameria" to "Other", seeing how no one objected. Athenean (talk) 22:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

we need a specific comment by xhufi...the french source balkanians word added to the cham albanians article mentions NORTH of thesprotiko which agrees with what ive seen also preveza even if some cham albanians lived there wasnt a part of 'chameria' so i moved it to other87.202.23.90 (talk) 02:37, 20 July 2010 (UTC)