Talk:Antisemitism

Causes: relations between Jewish sub-culture and dominant culture

The article seems incomplete: it details the fact that the Jewish people have been subject to prejudice, but fails to provide any serious rationale for this prejudice, making the reader assume it is rooted in religious dogma or even suggesting it stems from a primitive and "inherited" defect. Friction between jewish sub-cultures and dominant cultures in the Roman Empire, post-Roman Europe, and the Islamic Empires is well documented. Can the article attempt to answer what it is about the historical jewish culture that allowed such friction to grow? I say this realizing most of the editors on this page will either be jewish and have a hard time conceiving any rationale basis for the prejudice to grow or be antisemites and attempt to exploit this idea. If the editors here are willing to be objective, this might be a fruitful area. Just a note: I write this after reading Stephen Bloom's Postville: A Clash of Cultures in Heartland America. While I cannot say he was accurate in every respect, he had many insights into the issue.Tobit2 (talk) 13:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

No. That would be original research. That's not what we do here. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

No, that would be including existing works into the body of the article. That is what we do here.Tobit2 (talk) 20:20, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I would agree that this article should have a reasonable summary of Srtre's classic Anti-Semite and Jew. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Why would Bloom's recent work about a specific situation in one small town be relevant to an overview of a global prejudice with a 2,000 year history? Please also review WP:UNDUE and WP:NOR. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Bloom was hardly limiting himself to a specific situation; rather, he was using what happened in Postville to frame a number of ideas (which is why the book was so successful). There are a number of works related to this topic - SLrubenstein pointed out Sarte's essay as another - and their inclusion would certainly help make a more complete picture. Otherwise, the article will continue to look sophomoric.Tobit2 (talk) 21:16, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I too doubt that Bloom's musings would be relevant, though I haven't read the book. Was there antisemitism in Postville? People can look at one another as being outlandish. That in itself is not necessarily an example of antisemitism or any other form of hatred that would fit into a similar category. I think the types of hatred that we are talking about are characterized by actual manifestations that matter, and are without any foundation in for instance an initiating action on the part of the group of people who are the object of the hatred in question. Bus stop (talk) 21:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It's still unclear to me why a journalist's musings, framed around a specific example of ethnic conflict in a small town, would rate a mention here, per WP:UNDUE. A famous philosopher's famous essay on the topic would be a separate matter. This also smacks a bit too much of victim blaming to me. Will we next be looking for why "serious rationale" for why African-Americans were enslaved, disenfranchised, discriminated against, lynched, etc.? Will a section on the Crips help explain it all? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I expected this to be difficult for you. On a side note, research on the causes of African enslavement is extensive. The African problem of tribal rivalry was at the root of the slave trade; these tribal conflicts continue to be a problem in Africa to this day.Tobit2 (talk) 03:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not "difficult." "This" is misguided, probably. You posited in your first post that there might be a "rationale basis for the prejudice to grow." If it were rational, would it be antisemitism? Isn't antisemitism baseless, or do you understand it otherwise? I'm willing to listen to your suggestions for material for the the article. We can discuss it. I'll tell you if I disagree with you and why. Bus stop (talk) 03:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Anti-semitism, like all things must begin from somewhere. It can be taught. It can be formed from experience. If it were without a cause, it would not exist. The cause may be empirical evidence or an abstraction of reality, but something must give it power, something must focus it on the jewish people.Tobit2 (talk) 13:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

You have to bring relevant sources for any material you wish to put in this or any other article. Present the material, present the source, and then we can discuss a potential edit in a productive way. We should try to keep this discussion relevant to editing the article. Bus stop (talk) 13:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Please see response to Jpgordon, below. Thanks.Tobit2 (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You have no idea about anything regarding me; please don't refer to me again. Now, are you arguing that the cause of prejudice against African Americans in the United States is tribal rivalry in Africa? Jayjg ^(talk) 05:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

If you do not wish me to refer to you, please do not answer me. A clarification is required as you have twisted what was said: you had previously asked "will we next be looking for a 'serious rationale' for why African-Americans were enslaved," so I provided you with an example of research on this; people do look at this issue because it is important to modern day Africa. I did not "argue [that there is a] cause for prejudice." Perhaps Sarte was correct; passion rather than reality can be the kernel of hatred.Tobit2 (talk) 13:18, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Now, what changes are you recommending for the article? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 14:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I recommend a new section be added to the article, perhaps entitled, "Causes of anti-semitism." I suggest that the section incorporate the best research available on why the jewish people have been the subject of sustained prejudice across cultures and time. Slrubenstein suggested a good start for the section by including Sarte's Anti-Semite and Jew. I do not intend to contribute to this article directly, so please take it as a suggestion for the editors.Tobit2 (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Tobit2, it's policy that you use article Talk: pages to comment on content, not on the contributor. So, if you can't manage that here, then you'll need to take your comments elsewhere. As for your "clarification", what I said was "Will we next be looking for why "serious rationale" for why African-Americans were enslaved, disenfranchised, discriminated against, lynched, etc.?" You left off the last part of the sentence, so I've highlighted it for you. Now, do you think there is a "serious rationale for this prejudice"? Can you "attempt to answer what it is about the historical African-American culture that allowed such friction to grow?" Jayjg ^(talk) 02:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is getting just odd. If you need clarification, please re-read what I wrote above.Tobit2 (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

As a newcomer to the topic of antisemitism, I would also appreciate an explanation of what, exactly, the oppressors thought was bad about the Jews; i.e. how the persecutors mistakenly justified their persecution. There seems to be a great deal of detail about reasonings of ancient history and also reasonings about the post-war Israel/Palestine conflict, but very little about reasonings behind the Nazi persecution and other 19-20th century prejudices. General statements such as the Nazis believed that the Jews polluted bloodlines doesn't really tell me very much; what was it about the Jewish bloodline that they considered negative? What were the stereotypes? Also, there are vague references to some kind of 19-20th century capitalist/economic "justification"; what exactly were the claims that the persecutors made? I am a total newcomer to this topic, newly interested as I have just welcomed a Jewish brother-in-law to my family, and these are the kinds of questions that stand out but I am to embarrassed to talk to my brother-in-law about, as the topic (probably correctly) makes me look uneducated. I'm trying to educate myself, and this article leaves me wanting. Andrew Oakley (talk) 11:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Roots of Nazi Antisemitism

In the section on Christian antisemitism in the 20th century there is one tiny detail missing, that Nazi antisemitism came from existing roots of antisemitism and that this prejudice was created at least partly by Christianity. It often seems to me that modern Christianity often seems to hide from and forget/conceal the more ugly aspects of its past like its long connection with German and other antisemitism and other prejudices. Ideally this imbalance needs to be redressed a little. Lucien86 (talk) 11:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

When looking into the German question it is important to know that there were many German tribes during the Roman period that invaded Europe. These tribes detested Roman authority, even Church authority, and were semi-independant. The Germans accepted the Arian belief that God and Jesus were separate entities; the point being that the "traditional" German beliefs are not considered traditional "Christianity". Antisemitism can be traced to Martin Luther, another German who detested Roman authority. Luther was a Church reformer, however, his views on the Jewish people are not considered "Christian". It is important to note that just because some person is labeled a Christian reformer, it does not neccessarily imply that the person is a Christian. Christian beliefs are rooted in the Bible. Antisemitism gained popularity, in my opinion, because Luther did not denounce it. The Bible does not support antisemitism. There is only one passage in Acts where a Jewish leader is beaten by Greeks. Paul the Apostle was denied to speak by the Roman authority and escorted out of the room before the beating took place. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Furthermore, the concept of Germany as a single country or integrated federation is relatively modern; post-Napoleon 1814. The idea that anything can have a "long connection" with Germany only really holds if you consider 200 years to be "long", which is absurd. Any real or imagined connection with Christianity would certainly apply equally to all Northern European states, possibly the whole of the Roman Empire and even perhaps the whole of both Orthodox and Catholic Christendom. Such a Christian connection can't be German-specific, the logic doesn't hold. Andrew Oakley (talk) 12:29, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that at all merely pointing out that Hitlers antisemitism didn't occur in a vacuum. I'm certainly not trying to tie antisemitism to any one group, it was then (in the 1920's) common in Germany and most of Europe, Britain and the US and elsewhere. The same goes for general racism. One merely has to look at things like Pathe news, compared to today the whole world was racist, homophobic, and full of a thousand prejudices.. I'm a demon for OR but its a theory of mine that the great liberalization (like the sexual revolution or the Civil Rights movement or modern anti-racism) the world over after WWII was partly a reaction against Nazism and the Holocaust. Lucien86 (talk) 08:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

too long

This article is way too long. Can we heavily trim some long sections like "New Testament and antisemitism" which have their own article largely duplicating this one? --BozMo talk 12:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

That section should definitely be trimmed. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

"tragically misinterpreted" / Keith Krell

I've moved the following recent insertion here for further discussion:

tragically misinterpreted throughout history for antisemitic purposes. <ref>{{cite web |last=Krell|first=Keith|title=Tomorrow’s World (1 Thessalonians 2:13-20)|url=http://bible.org/seriespage/tomorrow%E2%80%99s-world-1-thessalonians-213-20|accessdate=07-26-2010}}</ref>The verse speaks of violence suffered at the hands of one's own countrymen, both the Gentile and Jewish Thessalonians

To begin with, the phrase "tragically misinterpreted" is obvious editorializing in Wikipedia's voice; the previous "employed" complied with WP:NPOV and WP:WTW. Next, why would Keith Krell or http://bible.org/seriespage/tomorrow%E2%80%99s-world-1-thessalonians-213-20 be considered reliable sources for this, or anything? Jayjg ^(talk) 21:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Keith Krell and bible.org have not been proven to be invalid sources. "Tragically misinterpreted" was Keith Krell's world view. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Why would Keith Krell or http://bible.org/seriespage/tomorrow%E2%80%99s-world-1-thessalonians-213-20 be considered reliable sources for this, or anything? Please explain in terms of the requirements laid out by WP:RS. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Inserted material about Thessalonians 2:13-16

I've moved the following recent insertion here for further discussion:

Particularly, verse 16 implied that ''wrath'' would come upon the Jews for their alleged hinderance of preaching the Gospel. Although the verse is highly critical of the Jewish people it does not advocate Christians to retaliate with violence in any manner against Jews or Gentiles who were against the Gospel message. Theologian [[Charles C. Ryrie]], contends that this "wrath" against the Jewish people was a one time event with the Roman army's destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.<ref>Ryrie (1986, 1994), '''''Ryrie Study Bible Expanded Edition King James Version''''', pp 1813, 1814</ref> Some theologians contend that in view of the eschatological emphasis of this letter, Paul is possibly alluding to judgement coming to unbelievers during the [[Tribulation]].<ref>Ernest Best, A Commentary on the First and Second Epistles to the Thessalonians. Black’s New Testament Commentaries series. 2nd ed. (London: Black, 1977), 119; Robert L. Thomas, “1 Thessalonians,” In The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. Edited by Frank E. Gaebelein and J. D. Douglas (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1978), 259-60; D. Michael Martin, 1, 2 Thessalonians. The New American Commentary series (Nashville: Broadman & Holman, 1995), 95

It's not clear what this material has to do with Antisemitism, the topic of this article. While it's somewhat interesting New Testament apologia, it's unclear if the authors themselves in any way discucss antisemitism, as opposed to merely expressing their views on the "real" meaning or intent of the verses. Do they actually discuss antisemitism? I've replaced it with more appropriate material from Craig Blomberg, which had a second advantage of shortening the section too.Jayjg ^(talk) 21:31, 26 July 2010

New Testament and Antisemitism

Perry and Sweitzer's book Antisemitism: Myth and Hate from Antiquity to the Present, according to reviewer Theodore R. Weeks, states "this book does not attempt to provide a coherent historical development of anti-Semitism from early Christianity to the present day." To claim that the four gospels in the Bible blames Jews for the death of Christ is unfounded. It indirectly assumes that Christians by their very nature are anti-semitic. This is completely contrary to the Bible and Christ's teachings. There is no concensus among Christians that Jews have been scattered around the world to be persecuted. There is no biblical passage that tells Christians to persecute Jews. If you read this article, one would assume that Christians condone the atrocities under the Nazi regime. To make an allegation that the New Testament supports the destruction of the Jewish people is dubious. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I've attributed it to the authors. Do you have reliable sourcing that contradicts this specific claim? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the author attribution. I do not have any issue with the opening statement in the section as long as it is attributed to the authors. In fact the section is well written with valid sources. The book review by Theodore R. Weeks is found in The Historian, Vol. 66, 2004. I was only objecting to a blanket statement that the Gospel writers were for the destruction of Jerusalem and for the Jewish people to be scattered and persecuted throughout the world without attribution. Perry and Sweitzer's book is actually an accumlation of six essays that "cover a wide variety of anti-Semitic manifestations." I have personally read the Gospels and I can't find one instance of Jewish retaliation by Christians. There were two legal authorities in charge of Jesus's trial execution, Pilate and Herod. The Jewish authorities did not have the power to execute, only Herod and Pilate. Herod declined to make a decision and sent Jesus back to Pilate. At Jesus's trial, Pilate only consulted with the Jewish leaders. The scourging of Jesus was completely Pilate's idea. There is no reference in the Gospels that advocates any retaliation against Romans or the Jews. According to the four accepted gospels, the Romans executed Jesus, not the Jews. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

And yet, the cry of "Christ killer" is still not dead today. Must be something in there that prompted it, often as church doctrine, for almost 2,000 years. I suspect "his blood be on us and on our children" had something to do with it. And it's really no use arguing here that all these Christians, for all these centuries, have misinterpreted the gospels; regardless of whether they were correct or not, that's how they interpreted it. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I've moved this inserted material here for now:

Theodore R. Weeks points out in The Historian that Schweitzer and Perry "make little effort to distinguish modern political anti-Semitism from the religious prejudices of the premodern period," however, he notes the book is a good reference for non-specialists.

To begin with, per WP:WTW, Weeks doesn't "point out" these claims, he states them. More fundamentally, the material, while interesting, does not refer to the specific issues raised in this section. While it would certainly be appropriate for an article on the book itself, or perhaps even in a biography of the authors, if it discusses the book at length, it is simply a book review, and therefore has no place in this section. Please recall, we are trying to tighten this section, not lengthen it with general and broad comments about the sources. If you have material that discusses the specific issues raised, that would be much more helpful. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:43, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not attempting to justify any antisemitism from the past by any Church or political authorities. Personally, I am disgusted and repulsed by antisemitism or any racist hatred. That statement in the Bible "his blood be on us and on our children", in my opinion, does not justify any hate crimes committed against the Jewish people. Thousands of Christians and Catholic Americans and English died in WWII to stop Hitler. Many Christians today support Israel. The Bible specifically states the Romans crucified Christ, not the Jewish people. Ignorance can only be cured with education. I believe it is important to point out how mankind has a flawed tendency to justify acts of cruelty to other people. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but whether or not the statement justifies antisemitism, that is what it was used for, and that is what this article documents. The rest is simply not relevant; we're not here to educate people on the true meaning of the New Testament, we're here to reproduce what reliable secondary sources say about antisemitism. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I added an alternative view for balance by Solomon Grayzel from a reliable book source. The source is a strong reference. I do not mind Weeks being put talk section. His point that there is both political and religious antisemitism is valid, in my opinion. He was only put in the article to give more balance. I understand the need to tighten the section, however, a fair and balanced view point over rides the section length. That follows the Wiki standards for a fair and balanced point of view.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmguy777 (talk • contribs)

I've also moved the Grayzel material here:

An alternative point of view comes from Solomon Grayzel who claimed that during the first period of Christianity there was "no convincing evidence that any real antagonism existed on the part of the Christians to Jews and Judaism." Grayzel points out that Jesus and his followers had no desire to see the destruction of the Jewish people or Judaism. According to Grazel, Jesus critisized hypocracy, a burdensome legal system, and desired to cleanse the Temple not from hatred motivations, but rather "a desire to extend and deepen the ethical implications of Judaism." Many of the early Christian themselves were Jewish and attended the Temple. Paul's attitude towards Jews, while not clear, did not reveal any evidence of hostility towards the Jewish people. Although Paul deeply critized the efficacy of the Jewish law in terms of Christian salvation, he boasted of his own Jewish heritage. Paul never stated that the Jewish nation should be destroyed or that Christians should be unfriendly to Jews.

To begin with, Grayzel is very old material - it's from 1942, almost 70 years old, and does not represent modern scholarship on the subject. In addition, the material itself is not relevant to the topic of the section, which is Antisemitism in the New Testament. Rather, as is obvious, this is Grayzel's view of the relationship between the Jesus and his first followers, or the very, very early church, and the Jewish groups of that time. The authors of the gospels in particular wrote their material two to three generations after this period.

More troubling, in general, is your statement that you are editing the section there merely to present "a fair and balanced view point". However, your edits and Talk: page comments have made it clear that your intent, and edits, have been solely for the purpose of exonerating the Christian church and its holy books of the charge of antisemitism, and correcting misunderstandings of Christian teachings/the New Testament. We are not here to be advocates for any particular position; rather, we need to read what reliable sources say on a particular issue, and reproduce those views. Please stop looking for material solely for the purpose of defending Christianity or educating people about what the New Testament really means. Instead, please look for reliable material that discusses the charge of antisemitism made against the New Testament in particular (in this section), and present what it says. The material, as it stands, indicates the charges that have been made, in a neutral way. These charges are in no way exceptional, or unusual, since Christian leaders and laypeople have used these documents in exactly this way for almost 2,000 years. Even if you want to explain that "they misinterpreted things, it was all a big mistake", that is still what they did, and you are not the church's defense lawyer here. Please re-consider your editing. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg could you correct the antepenultimate sentence which must have a missing word or something. In general we have to be careful to distinguish between elements within the Christian Church and the totality of it. Also, plenty of AS within the Church was based on the OT Prophets etc and we need to remember those "holy books" include ones which I guess you would not regard as per sae AS? --BozMo talk 09:49, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not pretending to be the Church's "defense lawyer". I am not disputing that there is a relationship with the New Testament and antisemitism. I put in a reference with a valid source, standard Wikipedia editing. This section contends that the New Testament is in itself antisemitic. In my opinion that is not a neutral point of view. I was only going by the criteria of Wikipedia for good article:

Verifiable with no original research:

(a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;

(b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose); and

(c) it contains no original research.

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.

Cmguy777 (talk) 16:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Cmguy777, your comment doesn't in any way address the specific issues I've raised with the material, so I can't see how it's relevant. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

"This section contends that the New Testament is in itself antisemitic" where? I don't see this (which won't be consistent with the main article on the subject). AFAIK the OT makes far more negative and hateful comments about the people of Israel, most of them attributed directly to YHWH (and of course with context which rather affects the meaning). --BozMo talk 16:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

This blanket statement, "The authors of the gospel accounts placed responsibility for the Crucifixion of Jesus and his death on Jews, rather than the Roman emperor or Pontius Pilate," only offers one viewpoint. There is no counter viewpoint mentioned. I Thessalonians 2:14-16 is justifiably mentioned as antisemitic with a counter viewpoint from Blomberg. This is good. The Blomberg comment offers neutrality. However, I Thessalonians 2:14-16 is not the entire New Testament. I had put in the Solomon Grayzel statement for neutrality that stated Jesus's critisisms came not from hatred, rather "a desire to extend and deepen the ethical implications of Judaism." This statement was taken from the article. You mentioned, "In general we have to be careful to distinguish between elements within the Christian Church and the totality of it." I agree. There is neutrality in part of the section, the Blomberg reference, however, the section is not completely neutral, in my opinion. I apoligize if the above statement implied that the whole section was not neutral. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that there is clear POV in "The authors of the gospel accounts placed responsibility for the Crucifixion of Jesus and his death on Jews, rather than the Roman emperor or Pontius Pilate," . But the whole section isn't that bad now (Jayjg improved it a lot). Your argument (paraphrased) that those who regard the New Testament as the ultimate authority on morality will consider AS as morally right if they believe the New Testament teaches AS is chilling but I think true. I recently found online that these viewpoints are not extinct. It is in fact a strong argument for ensuring we are particularly careful to stick to WP policy here and don't give POVs or judgements on what the NT says unless categorically supported by a consensus of reliable sources. --BozMo talk 17:51, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

BozMo, that POV is clearly attributed to the people who make the charge. Frankly, it wouldn't be hard to find other reliable sources making the identical charge, but there's no particular need. Cmguy777, you haven't addressed a single one of the issues raised with the material, which had to do with the age, non-specificity and relevance of the source. Your role here isn't to defend Jesus, or the New Testament, it's to find relevant secondary sources on antisemitism - and in this case, on antisemitism and the New Testament. The material you brought failed that requirement. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg it would not be hard to find reliable sources which BOTH make and refute the claim that claim, I am afraid. That is what makes it a POV. Sure, most of the refuters would be contemporary Christian Bible scholars, but my guess without reaching for the bookcase is just as valid sources as the ones you can produce. As OR I think the question would be the critical meaning of Pontius Pilate washing his hands. Does the scholar allow this as innocent or condemn it as weak guilt? Off my bookcase my first heavyweight Victorian exegetical commentary on John (published 1900) is by the rather well known Marcus Dods (theologian), Professor of Exegetical Theology, University of Edinburgh, Vol2 pp 299-321 (Chapter on "before Pilate")..."Could (Pilate) persuade himself that the mere words "I am innocent of the blood of this righteous man.." altered his relation to the death of Christ. No doubt he did... (but) ... Nothing could save Pilate from the responsibility attaching to his connection with Jesus " etc. I could find another ten textual commentaries from reliable sources on different gospels given a day. They are, I grant you from a POV, just not the same one as the sentence offered. Implying ALL of the gospel authors attribute NO blame to Pilate per this statement is a pretty bold claim; even in the middle ages I think people blamed Pilate's role for the fall of the Roman Empire (ho ho). --BozMo talk 19:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the most reliable sources tend to show both sides of an argument. Also, please keep in mind that this article (and the section in it) are not about New Testament exegesis, but are about antisemitism. Thus, all sources used would have to specifically discuss the New Testament in the context of antisemitism, explicitly stating whether it was, or wasn't, or might be, or might be considered to be antisemitic. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Then you need to take out general statements on interpretation such as this one and stick to statements on AS. There is not both sides in the categorical "rather than" since it falsely implies exonerating Pilate. --BozMo talk 21:37, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I have a slow connection and am off for the night. Placing guilt "More on the jews than on PP" would be acceptable but whether you mean to or not you current statement is exactly a piece of exegesis. It is claiming categorically guilt on a rather than b and that is not acceptable as NPOV. --BozMo talk 21:44, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

BozMo, the material that's in there now is from sources that explicitly discuss NT verses in the context of antisemitism. They're not just general exegesis. What we're avoiding here is WP:SYNTH, and so far have been successful at it, I think. If you can find any material in the section that doesn't discuss NT verses (or the NT) in the context of antisemitism, please point it out. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I have told you that the problematic statement is "The authors of the gospel accounts placed responsibility for the Crucifixion of Jesus and his death on Jews, rather than the Roman emperor or Pontius Pilate,". This is not a statement about antisemitism but an interpretative statement about the New Testament authors. It is also wrong; sure the New Testament places plenty and most of the blame on Jews, more than on the Romans, everyone agrees on that, but not to the exclusion of blaming others as well per numerous very reliable sources (including even blaming God as in "thy will be done" although perhaps God is Jewish). You cannot limit sources on interpretative statements as categorical as this to discussions of AS. Besides which you have not produced a source for this level of precision. I have looked around and cannot see a definitive "100% on Jews" statement. Are you sure you are representing your (ungiven) sources accurately?--BozMo talk 09:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

It's from a book on antisemitism, of course it's relevant to the topic of antisemitism! Somehow the qualifying material was lost, my error, I've restored it. What do you think the source is saying? Jayjg ^(talk) 12:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I can only speak for myself, not for others. Personally I believe that AS or racial hatred is immoral. AS is active today, I am in total agreement, and in my opinion should be suppressed with education and laws protecting a persons faith and race. I can not speak for those who believe the New Testament as the ultimate authority. My own POV is that the Bible has unjustly been used to justify AS. I can attempt to find a source to balance the opening sentence that is both accepted by yourself and Jayjg. Yes. Jayjg has fastly improved the section. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

No, no, no. Stop looking for material to defend the New Testament. Look for material that discusses antisemitism and the New Testament, and see what it says. You're not here to write apologia. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

The trouble is that these claims about the meaning of gospel writers are not just limited to AS as a topic, they fall in a huge field of Biblical exegesis. You can call the NT AS on AS sources but you cannot say the gospels e.g meant xyz or exonerated Pontius Pilate on AS sources. You must be able to see that --BozMo talk 21:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Right, but this isn't an article about NT exegesis, it's an article about antisemitism. So, we can't synthesize material in order to present some sort of defense/apologia for various NT passages. Instead, we must restrict ourselves solely to sources that discuss NT passages in the context of antisemitism, and explain what they say. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Per above, your source please for this ver categorical claim. I do not think that anyone else is in danger of breaking WP:SYNTH here by the way, except you. --BozMo talk 06:56, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

You say you've read the pages in question; how would you word what they say? Jayjg ^(talk) 12:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I have found a source by Tania Oldenhage that discusses antisemitism. The book is titled: Parables for Our Time: Rereading New Testament Scholarship after the Holocaust, published in 2002. Is this an acceptable source?

Here is a sample paragraph:

Rosemary R. Ruether cites the parable of the wicked husbandman (Mark 12:1-11) as an example of anti-Jewish writing that depicts the Jewish people as unrepentant and unbelieving murderers of Christ. Aaron Milavec's argues that the passage rather then authenticating “Jewish guilt” challenges the reader to tear “away those religious assurances which shield one from the terrible judgment of the living God.” According to Tania Oldenhage, Milavec's view point is that Mark's original intent in the passage was not anti-Jewish but rather “decidedly favorable to Judaism.” Cmguy777 (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

The source is fine, but the paragraph displays more of the problem. This article nowhere mentions Mark 12:1-11, so why have you decided to bring it up? Your paragraph nowhere explains why Ruether thinks this is an example of anti-Jewish writing. Nor does it explain Oldenhage's lengthy dissection of Milavec's defense of the passage (Oldenhage disagees with Milavec's views). Rather, it focuses on Milavec's arguments, and Oldenhage's explanation of his arguments. In other words, the entire passage is brought as a kind of straw man, a platform that allows you to present Milavec's defense of Mark 12:1-11, rather than actually explaining why people think it's antisemitic, or how it has been used for purposes of antisemitism. Again, you're not supposed to be acting as the Church's defense attorney here. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Again, I am not the churches "defense attorney". I have only attempted to give a balanced point of view. In the section, there is no mention of an actual link between the New Testament and an actual act of antisemitism. I do not want any edit wars. You can do what you want with the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

"A person who practices antisemitism is called an 'antisemite'."

Normally I would just make the change I'm thinking of, but this is a pretty controversial article, so I felt the need to check it out here. The above sentence is in the lede. It treats antisemitism as something that an antisemite practices, whereas I think most people would say it is something that an antisemite professes or believes: practices such as discrimination or hate crimes are expressions of antisemitism, but antisemitism can exist as a belief without those overt practices.

It seems to me that prejudice is an attitude, not a behavior. Prejudice is thus distinct from discrimination, which is an overt behavior in society. A person can be prejudiced even if they do not do anything about it: for instance if they are deterred from acting on their prejudice because they fear social disapproval.

Thoughts? Is antisemitism a practice, or a professed belief? --FOo (talk) 03:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it takes both forms, mostly I think it just keeps looming in antisemite minds and they just try to stay away from/be unfriendly/ avoid doing any business with/ or neglect to extend general favors that they would otherwise extend to anyone else (without any other particular reason or they may even feel inspired to invent a reason for such behaviour). How do you think it could be useful in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Civilizededucation (talk • contribs) 03:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

How do RS define it?Slatersteven (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Buchenwald Corpse Picture

I don't think this picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buchenwald_Corpses_60623.jpg) has a place in the Antisemitism article. Are these corpses specifically Jewish? There are no indications in the caption (simply "wagon loaded with corpses") or on the website it was retrieved from (http://resources.ushmm.org/inquery/uia_doc.php/photos/13855) that they are Jewish. Yes, it is from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum website, however according to the Buchenwald concentration camp article on wiki, this camp housed not only Jews, but also "non-Jewish Poles and Slovenes, religious and political prisoners, Roma and Sinti, Jehovah's Witnesses, criminals, homosexuals, and prisoners of war" So, there is no way to correctly assume that these are exclusively Jewish corpses, and thus I feel this picture does not belong in this article, for it misinforms the reader that these corpses are Jewish. If there is a request to replace this picture with another portraying Antisemitism in the scope of World War II, perhaps there should be a depiction of the yellow badges enforced on Jews by the Nazi's, or something that can be distinctly identified as Anti-semitic. Paulm27 (talk) 18:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)