Talk:Judaea (Roman province)

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Someone kindly asked why I moved "Iudaea (Roman province)" to "Iudaea Province".

I wanted to bring it inline with other provinces that use this scheme, namingly Aegyptus, Achaea, Africa, Asia where the last three use "X Province, Roman Empire" current use visible at: Category:Ancient Roman provinces.

Maybe I moved some of the others as well, but I think was not the only one using this format.

This format is also used for Category:Old provinces of Japan and Category:Provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Furthermore it is used for some of the other Category:Provinces. Nevertheless some people do not like this format , you might like to engage in discussion of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (provinces). I will put Iudea on my watchlist so you also can reply here. best regards Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think that writing [[Iudaea (Roman province)|]] or [[Africa (Roman province)|]] is more comfortable and carries the same information than writing [[Africa Province, Roman empire]] or similar. You refer to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (provinces); I read something in that page, and I must note that there is a difference between Iudaea province and, for example, Province of Rome (the Italian one): the name of the province of Rome is "Provincia di Roma", while the name of the Judean province in the Roman Empire was "Iudaea". I propose to change the name of the Roman provinces, where it is ambiguous, with sometingh like "X (Roman province)"--Panairjdde 16:53, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Naming convention page is just under developement. More important then looking at the italian provinces would be to regard naming scheme of other historical provinces. Another issue, should it be "Iudea (province of the Roman Empire)" or "Iudea (Roman province)". The latter obviously is much shorter. I think Africa (Roman province) does carry a little bit less information as Africa Province, Roman Empire as the latter directly mentions the encompassing entity. That's the logic of the scheme, if there are two things X add the entity type e.g. X District, X Province, X County. If there are two "X Province" add an encompassing entity. --- Ups, I found none of the province seem to need the encompassing entity. I will go move them all from "X Province, Roman Empire" to "X Province", because now it gives the impression there would be more "X Province". Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:32, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

done. can you live with this solution for a while? I still did not reply to your point that the name was "Iudea" and not "provincae di Iudea". Well, that's right. A lot of things are out there that are called "wilaya X" or "X oblast". These entities have the province term inside them. So use of "X Province" / "X province" is fine. In articles about the Roman Empire I saw several times usage of the wording "X province". If it is ok in text maybe it can be ok in title? I am not sure about this text->title logic. I will address this all in the naming convention. Hopefully we find a good solution for all the maybe 2000 provinces and the million of other subdivisions. If done I post a comment on Talk:Roman province. maybe you can wait with move for let's say 30 days? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 22:08, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• "Iudea Province" is not good English. It needs to be something different.

It's perfectly good English.

• Also, why "Iudea"? The Romans themselves Latinised the Greek "Ioudaia" into "Judaea" (which would be fine) with an alternative spelling "Iudaea". Classical historians tend to use "Judaea": why don't we here?

The J wasn't invented till the middle ages. It was used to distinquish consonantal i (y) from i the vowel. But it didn't exist prior to the middle ages. IUDAEA is the original spelling, Judaea and Judea are alternates. Also, Iudaea draws a distinction from earlier Judah and later Syria-Palestine.

• And would it not make more sense to the reader to have a single article for the province from the Roman conquest to the Arab conquest, instead of dividing it into two, this one and Syria Palaestina?

Mark O'Sullivan 10:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

No, due to the length limit, it's better to divide. There are significant differences between Iudea and Syria-Palestine.

Why did Hadrian call it Aelia Capitolina?

The book on my lap is Historians History of the World (1926) is not the most writes "The founding of the new colony of Aelia Capitolina on the ruins of Jerusalem ... brought about a terrible Jewish revolt..." If it was the cause of the revolt it can't have been done as a punishment - or am I missing something. (The banning of Jews from the new city would have been a response to the revolt.) I'll check tomorrow for something more up to date but please expand as to why you think the name was hit upon as a result of the revolt rather than how it was planned before hand.Dejvid 22:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

It seems your question is closer related to Aelia Capitolina than this article. In short, in circa 130 CE Hadrian decided to establish a pagan temple on the ruins of the Jewish Temple, rebuild the holiest Jewish city as a pagan polis, then he ploughed up the Temple and prohibited brit milah. These religious offenses provoked Bar Kokhba's revolt. After quashing it, he followed up with his plans and much more. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 00:31, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

"This was one of the few governed by a knight of the equestrian order, not a former consul or praetor of senatorial rank, because its revenue was of little importance to the Roman treasury and the region was pacified."

This is incorrect, Iudaea was under direct rule by Rome because it was a critical connection to the bread basket of Egypt and against Parthia.

And obviously it wasn't pacified till later.

Hang on here. Until Hadrian's reorganization, Judaea was not a province in its own right, but a sub-province or prefecture of Syria. Pilate etc. didn't report directly to Rome, but to Antioch. That's why Judaea's prefects (later procurators) were equestrians- they weren't gubernators at all, but 'district administrators.'

As for being pacified- well, up until the First Revolt there wasn't even a legion stationed in Judaea, just a vexillation (prob a reinforced cohort) at Caesarea, plus a small garrison at the Antonia and perhaps a few other large towns. Solicitr (talk) 04:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Queen Alexandra

Could someone please wikify that name? Thanks. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 01:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 23:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

---

Iudaea Province → Iudaea — Because "Iudaea Province" sounds utterly unnatural and because Iudaea currently redirects here anyway. Else, Iudaea (Roman province), as others in the same category. 189.136.163.28 (talk) 01:58, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

If there's a Wikipedia convention that has developed for titles of articles on Roman provinces, it may streamline things to follow the flow.--Wetman (talk) 06:01, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

But it will also streamline things to spell the provincial name as Latin is normailly spelt in English: Judaea (Roman province), like Julius Caesar. The Latin Wikipedia is two doors down on the right. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:44, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Pmanderson, I find the use of I instead of J to be idiosyncratic, normal people write "Julius Caesar", "Jupiter" etc not "Iulius Caesar", "Iupiter", similarly normal people spell it "Judaea" and not "Iudaea". Kuratowski's Ghost (talk) 22:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with Pmanderson and Kuratowski. If we are going to use the most common English name we should use Judaea. Flamarande (talk) 09:33, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

• Support, it is a redirect to the same page. I see no fault here. Urgenine (talk) 21:00, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Modern historians use the term Iudaea, not Judaea, to distinguish between Roman Iudaea province and the territory of Judea proper

H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, ISBN 0674397312, page 246: "When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in 6 CE, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea."

75.0.0.13 (talk) 17:52, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Judaea?

Why does this article use the spelling Judaea for the Roman province? That's not the spelling used by most modern historians. Instead, Iudaea is used, as distinct from Judea proper. Iudaea was not Judea, instead it was an amalgamation of Judea, Samaria, and Idumea. Judaea is ambiguous, it could stand for Judea proper or the Roman Iudaea province.

H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, ISBN 0-674-39731-2, page 246: "When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in AD 6, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea."

75.15.193.145 (talk) 17:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You only mention a single book, written in 1976, to "prove" your point. That's poor evidence.

Adrian Goldsworthy, in his book 'the complete Roman Army', written in 2003, only uses 'Judaea'. He also uses 'Judaea' in 'In the name of Rome' written in 2003. 'The enemies of Rome' written in 2004 by Philip Matyszak uses 'Judaea'. 'The twelve Caesars', reprinted in 2000, uses 'Judaea'. Need I go on? Flamarande (talk) 10:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Judaea may be a common spelling, but modern historians use the spelling Iudaea to avoid confusion with Judea. 36,000 Google books results for "Iudaea". 75.14.217.143 (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The most common name is what's important. The confusion is avoided by the disambiguator (Roman province). --JaGa^talk 18:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Is Judaea the most common spelling for the Roman province? 75.14.217.143 (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

For example, the Persian province is called Yehud Medinata, not Judaea (Persian province). 75.14.217.143 (talk) 18:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)