Talk:Hip hop music

Puerto Rican vs "Latino" American

With all sources provided, claiming African Americans created Hip Hop. I am Nuyorican - mother is black (Brooklyn born), father is Puerto Rican. I am 39, born in Brooklyn. From my experience is paramount, African Americans and Latino Americans mostly (Puerto Ricans) created Hip Hop. Nostalgia - The brothers created the wheels of steel, the scratch, the mix and the stealth of the mic; the Puerto Ricans created the B-boy style, the b-boy dance (beats, rhymes, the party and life of the struggle). You cannot confuse this! Its simple. HipHop was created because people were starving to make ends meet, And to deal with it, we created hiphop to to mzke in life! How Ironic! From the govenment cheese to getting a pair of pumas, with a little bit of flair and frontin in your crew, thats the way it was.

we have advanced, but still struggle as of people. I Believe another culture will emerge and HipHop will reinvent itself out of the struggle as it once did 36 years ago, history will repeat itself.

As we struggle in 2010 with a failed economy, hiphop will transform into the standard of struggle, rename as something else, we will see.

R. Marrero —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.101.126.154 (talk) 06:25, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Can someone please watch the user with the IP 87.11.xx.xx, the IP constantly changes the opening from Puerto Rican to "Latin American". The reference specifically reads puerto Rican immigrants had influence on hip hop. It is clearly misleading to suggest all of latin America had influence on USA hip hopSourcechecker419 (talk) 19:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Latin Americans are immigrants since 1940-1960's, in the Bronx there have been many Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Colombians, etc since then. So the merit it's not only for Puerto Ricans. The reference is "LATINOS in Hip Hop to Reggaeton", Reggaeton music born in Panama, it has many latin american influences, but it got officialy famous with puerto ricans "reggaetoneros". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.5.188 (talk) 10:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The main source, Jeff Chang's Can't Stop Won't Stop, doesn't just specify Puerto Ricans, so it should be "Latin Americans" in the article. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:07, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Umm..Actually Reggeton music isnt Hip-Hop per say. Hip-Hop is widley known as an indiginous American artform like Jazz, Country music, R&B, etc. To say Mexicans (or any foriegn latin cultures) had any influence on traditional hip-hip is lightweight outrageous. You could arguablably say puerto ricans played apart but even most of them were of African slave descent (indistingishable from blacks). "Latino" probably should just be taken off altogether an put into the "reggeton" section. I also think Sourcechecker has a point. Saying all of Latin America influened hip-hop is like saying because Emeinem was a big star, all of Europe takes credit for hip-hop. There really is no such thing as "latino culture", latin America composes of several unique culture. It article should really focus on the lineage of the people who created hip-hop, not ambigous cultures. I strongly ask everyone to watch this youtube vid for an objective view on the orgins of hip-hop done by 20/20 in 1981. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WonNbeBwXD468.55.205.186 (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The reference is "Latinos in Hip Hop to reggaeton" so you need to admit that there have been some "Latino" as Jamaican influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.32.80 (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

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Reggaeton should not be in this article. Hip Hop is a influence of Reggaeton, and should be linked from the Reggaeton page to here.

This was started by African Americans. The latinos influences came later. This really needs to be edited. This applies to breakdancing as well. Everyone else came later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

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Latinos have nothing to do with the creation of Hip hop. It was started by inner city blacks, with Jamaican influences. There contribution to hip hop came later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

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So now you take out African Americans,and black people in the article all together lol, who ever created this page has an obvious agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 06:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Two articles

This article and hip hop need to me merged at some point. Most of this article could be incorporated in the history section of the other, maybe leading to a new History of hip hop article. Zazaban (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Casper's Groovy Ghost Show Record

It was released in 1978, but is it hip-hop? Some sources say it was released in 1980. Are they different versions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.172.130.146 (talk) 23:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

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Latinos were not that influential . stop reaching .

'To say Mexicans (or any foriegn latin cultures) had any influence on traditional hip-hip is lightweight outrageous' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.227.101 (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Stylistic origins

Stylistic origins are also Jazz and Blues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.144.39.201 (talk) 09:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

If that's the case then find a source for it. I've already removed 'jazz' from the stylistic origins in the infobox about five times. Jazz was obviously an influence on jazz-rap, but that's a fusion genre, it doesn't count as an influence on original hip-hop, surely? Matthew Fennell (talk) 23:56, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Latino Ameircans

The creation of HIP HOP came from African Americans with Jamaican influence ( Kool Herc Dub music). There was NO latin influence. Even in the article is list the creators of the musical art form. There is no debate here. You can add Latinos to LATER influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 09:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I've added about seven times to the opening paragraph that Latino Americans were influential in the birth of hip hop, albeit not as much as African Americans or Jamaican Americans. I have also provided a source for this. However people keep removing it and I have to keep putting it back. Should the opening paragraph mention that Latinos helped birth hip hop, or not? I think it should. Matthew Fennell (talk) 22:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Not really. Whether a few lke it or not, hip-hop music was an Afro-American creation. Yes, so-called "Latinos" (I say so-called "Latinos" because Latino is not a "race" and it's really a European ethnic group that applies to Italians, but that's another topic) made the music, but it's creation, it's founding, was by Afro-Americans and a Jamaican of African descent named DJ Kool Herc. B-Machine (talk) 16:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The article has a reliable source cited that specifically says, "First of all, Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one". Wikipedia goes off reliable sources, and that's what the reliable source says. The only way you're going to be able to change it is if someone finds a source that says that Latinos haven't been there since the beginning. But even then you'd only be able to say that there is some debate over whether they have or not, you couldn't remove them entirely.

So the Latino bit should 100% stay. Crateescape101 (talk) 20:14, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Latinos never helped create anything.If you look at music what influenced hip hop its all black music ,Jazz , soul , disco , blues , reggae .It was never started by the latino community or helped started by the latino community .Yes the latinos jumped on it early but it was already created by black americans and black jamaicans. Matthew you need to stop trying to edit black culture because you don't like bits of it .Don't ever try to put your false fantasies about what latinos did.Ima edit this page and I dont give a fuck about no white or latino gotta say about that

To the Idiot what said that wikipedia has reliable sources because someone said latinos have been there since day one smh . If you want "sources" look at this article where people clearly explain how rap is a black american artform and culture started by blacks. http://www.daveyd.com/addissablackart.html

To the person above and to Darkman - I personally don't have an interest in whether Latinos did or didn't have anything to do with it... but wikipedia goes by verifiable and reliable sources.

So far there is a reliable source saying Latinos "have been in the hip-hop scene since day one". You're going to have to find a reliable source (that means NOT a youtube video or a rant off a blog) that states what you're saying.

The the burden of responsibility is on you to find the sources so that they can be cited. Someone has already found one that supports Latinos being there for the creation. That means for your opposing view to be included you need to go to the books and reliable magazine articles and academic studies and find quotes that say what you're saying. Crateescape101 (talk) 10:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

There are these studies all over the internet. I mean you basing this wiki article off one book with biased views obviously from latinos who want to take credit in the creation. The sad thing is that even the wiki article shows the truth. The people who started and created the music, the dancing , the scratching, the raping were all black people.

Here is ONE example. From a "credible" source.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/09/afrika-bambaataa-hip-hop-music-business-entertainment-cash-kings-bambaataa.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

We have a credible source saying Latinos were there from day one. It's going to be very hard to remove their inclusion now because of that source. The source you provided does not state that it was only black people and no Latinos.

You'd need to find a credible source that says that ONLY black people created it. And even then, because of the other source already there, we could only logically change it to "some sources argue that only black people created it, while other sources suggest Latinos also contributed to its creation". Crateescape101 (talk) 19:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Thats ridiculous, your own wiki shows the first creators of the artistic style, and there are only black people in his group stated in the article. If thats the case there is no credible source saying only white people invented the computer. Since Black people were "there" around the time the computer was created we can claim we invented the computer....

We can see the obvious racism under wiki. I'm waiting for you all to say white people and latinos invented blues music as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest if latinos are included via source as a secondary influence on Hip Hop , it be worded Nuyoricanor something to that effect instead of Latino, Latino is to expansive in this case, because from reliable sources it is obvious that African Americans and Jamaican Americans were the primary pioneers of Hip-Hop from the Bronx,and the main Latino population there are Nuyoricans at the time that Hip-hop evolved,like i said Latino is very Expansive in reality it includes people of different Ethnic backgrounds racial backgrounds etc etc to just say Latino is giving credit to White Cubans from South Florida credit for Hip-Hop or Native American/Chicanos Mexicans from East LA etc etc--Wikiscribe (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

We have a reliable source (the only source cited on the part in question at the moment) that says: "Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one". That is very specific and clear.

If there was a reliable source that said white people invented blues music, then it could be cited in wikipedia because on wikipedia "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth"WP:VERIFY. If a reliable source says it, then it is so, that is how wikipedia works. But of course you're going to be hard pressed to find a reliable source that says that white people invented blues, so I don't know why you'd even suggest that, because I don't know anyone who claims that.

With this article, we have a source that has a very clear quote in there - "Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one". It doesn't say Nuyorican, it doesn't say that Latinos contributed later... it says "Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one".

If you have an opposing view to the reliable source, then the responsibility is on you to find a reliable source that clearly states the opposite. BUT because we already have a reliable source which says Latinos were there from the beginning, then the best you could do is say that there are opposing views on the matter. You can't undo the fact that a reliable source has said Latinos were there from day one. Crateescape101 (talk) 23:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Sure that is understandable and i do know it is not about truth,but i have found a reliable source that sites New York Ricans more specificaly,[[1]],so with this source in hand,i suggest we add it to say Puerto Rican or Nuyorican rather than the generic Latino, i mean unless you can find sources that suggest for example White Cubans from Miami influenced hip hop or Chicanos from East LA i.e do you have other sources that site any other latino group was instrumental in starting Hip hop music???Because when sources are more specific they say Rican--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Cool, that is a good source... the source that is already there specifically says "Latinos" though, so I don't think we have to narrow it down because we already have a source that says Latinos in general. Crateescape101 (talk) 08:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

A "source" stating that they have been there since " day one" does not mean they had anything to do with the creation of Hip hop. Black people have been in this country since " day one" yet we are not credited for the invention of the computer, and various others. What about this source makes it valid? In the same source you have Latinos stating they came after they say black doing what they are doing. BIg Pun in an interview stated this, Crazy legs in an interview stated this. The latin Kings first B boy group stated this. THESE ARE VALID SOURCES. Even the wiki shows only black people as the people who created the artform. So the inclusion of NONE black people is false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 13:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Guys, you can't just claim sources have said things, you have to find a specific quote in a book, magazine or other reliable source (NOT a youtube video), and cite it in the article for it to be included in wikipedia.

I just came across a quote from African American scholar Michael Eric Dyson, in a published book where he says Latinos were involved in the creation: "Hip-hop's original makers and producers, African Americans and Latinos". It doesn't get much clearer than that and from a very reliable source who has written numerous books on hip-hop - I have cited it in the article. Please come back with some citations from reliable sources in order to move the discussion forward if you don't agree.

Crateescape101 (talk) 12:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

How is one person used as a "source". There are countless sources written by African American scholars.

The Hip Hop Generation: The Crisis in African American Culture - Bakari Kitwana

Why White Kids Love Hip Hop: Wangstas, Wiggers, Wannabes, and the New Reality of Race in America

-  Bakari Kitwana

African Identities : Race, Nation and Culture in Ethnography, Pan-Africanism and Black Literatures by Kadiatu Kanneh

Afrikan Mothers: Bearers of Culture, Makers of Social Change - Nah Dov

Encyclopedia of rap and hip-hop culture - Yvonne Bynoe

The list could go on, the point is that Latinos have nothing to do with the creation of the artform. Yea they were there and participated like everyone else AFTER it was created.

Using Dyson as a "main source" is ridiculous.

Even wiki clearly state its African American creation, and Jamaican ONLY.

You cant just use , oh this one person said they were "there" so they get credited for being apart of its creation.

And again, the creators of all the "pillars of hip hop" rap, dance, Dj, b boying, etc are all black. Which is even stated in this wiki. The contradictions here are endless.

Kitwana argues that the truth is much more complicated. The hip-hop generation–a cohort he limits to African Americans born between 1965 and 1977, but which could well apply to youths of all colors who came of age with and after the Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic Force’s “Planet Rock”–has been shaped by globalization and unemployment, incarceration and racial profiling, gender wars and nihilism. Gone forever are the days when “the struggle” was simply about fighting segregation. The hip-hop generation is beset by economic dislocation, environmental racism, AIDS, inadequate schooling, inner-city disinvestment, culture wars, and ya don’t stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 14:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, well find a quote from those books you just listed that mentions the original pioneers ONLY being African American - the quote you just listed is about the "hip-hop generation", not about the "original makers and producers" as the Dyson quote is... the hip-hop generation is a term Kitwana uses to describe people who grew up with hip-hop, not who made it.

There are now two sources in the article that back up there being Latinos there at the beginning and no citations for what you are claiming. Crateescape101 (talk) 14:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

(Black Noise: Rap Music and Black Culture in Contemporary America (Music/Culture) -

" rap music is a black cultural expression that prioritizes black voices from the margins of urban America. rap music is a form of rhymed storytelling accompanied by highly rhythmic, electronically based music. It began in the mid 1970s in the South Bronx in New York City as a part of hip hop, an African American, and Afro Caribbean youth culture composed of graffiti, breakdancing, and rap music." (black noise - 2)

Aurthur - Tricia Rose) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 14:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Images

There were absolutely no images in the article after the '80s, so I've added some. Article looks a lot less sparse now. Zazaban (talk) 21:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, a few of the sections in the late '80s were excessively small, so I've expanded them. Zazaban (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Innovation Section

Far more influential than any of the artists listed in this section, is the overlooked "new age" hip hop group Definitive Jux which rose to fame in the 2000's featuring the talented Aesop Rock, CEO EL-P, Mr Lif, Vast Aire from Cannibal Ox, etc. Also other producers like RJD2, Blockhead, J Dilla, etc had a major effect on hip hop productions because they incorporate a lot of experimental/soul/jazz/funk sounds that had never been used before.

In short, the innovation section totally disregards some of the major influential figures in hip hop music over the past decade and a half. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.113.143 (talk) 22:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

That particular section is only about the last four or five years, and mainly alternative hip hop. Zazaban (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

'hip hop' or 'hip-hop'

Throughout the article, the genre is referred to both as 'hip hop' and 'hip-hop'. For the purpose of consistency, which should it be? Luksuh (talk) 05:12, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not just in this article that those inconsistencies exist. In fact, I found in most instances, hip hop was chosen over hip-hop. However, the most highly recognized authority on music charting, Billboard, uses the term Hip-Hop in the chart name devoted to this style of music. Billboard's R&B/Hip-Hop Chart

I'm not sure if this is where this should go, but I would propose that the word hip hop be changed to hip-hop globally, based on the above reference.--There is nothing civil about Civil War. 18:44, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

"Hip-hop" is probably more appropriate. -Reconsider! 07:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Considering there are millions of sources that use both forms of the word, I don't see how one can be chosen as more correct than the other. — ξ^xplicit 23:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

criticism

Someone should add a criticism section.--FifthCylon (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

For what reason? Other music genre articles (e.g., Jazz, Rock music) don't have criticism sections. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if a "criticism" section or article fits well in an encyclopedia, but its true that Jazz, Rock, Hip Hop and Rap have all had their highly vocal critics. of course, we now look on most criticism of jazz and rock as narrowminded puritanism, but there absolutely are elements of all these music genres open to criticism: themes, musical simplicity, commercialism, etc. Criticisms can be included in various sections as appropriate. I think people like Bill Cosby[2], bell hooks[3] and Larry DeWitt[4], among hundreds of other notable thinkers, deserve to be heard here. Though its about the culture, not the music, Misogyny in hip hop culture (acknowledging problems with this article) may have appropriate content to add, such as the author Tricia Rose's comments in the aforementioned article, and in other books.[5]Mercurywoodrose (talk) 16:19, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Bill Cosby is not a notable thinker, he is an entertainer. A comedian. He does tricks for people, he is not studious. I have a feeling the other people you mentioned aren't notable thinkers either.

Revamp

While the article is relatively comprehensive, I think it needs some re-structuring and copy-editing. Also, the 2000s section should be converted to prose rather than consisting of a list of miscellaneous artists. -Reconsider! 12:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)